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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 03:01 PM
Original message
Voting your heart in the primary.
I hope that many of you consider voting your heart in the primary rather then "who you think can win." Send a message when it is appropriate to do so: during the primary. When you compare Hillary, Obama or Edwards against the other lesser known Democratic candidates do they actually stack up with what you want in a Presidential candidate? The answer is no for me (as I suspect it is for many of the readers here.) I'm going to be voting for one of the "invisible" candidates in the coming primary because they truly represent what I want our party to be. Whoever actually wins the primary season well of course get my vote come November, but the primary is when I personally choose to make a statement about where our party should be.

CitizenRob
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm going to because I know it doesn't matter
I'm told my candidate back in 2004 was some sort of wacko, and that supporters of him were the same.

Populous candidates are hated by the establishment and by people who like giving their choices away.
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. Heart and head both tell me the same thing - Biden.
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. After looking at the candidates stands Gravel is my choice.
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Ditto.
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demnan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. Of course I'm going to vote for mine
But we have a late primary in Virginia. By the time I vote we will already probably have a winner. It would be harder for me not to vote to try and influence the decision if my primary were sooner.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
5. I think voting your "head" is more important in the primary
In my opinion, the General Election is going to hinge on factors much more basic than who specifically is running.

It's fundamentally going to be about whether enough voters are sick of the whole Bush/GOP mentality to boot them out of the White House or not. If enough are, then Zippy the Pinhead will win the General as a Democratic nominee. If not, then no Democrat is going to take the White House.

That's why, IMO, the primaries are especially important, because you are voting for a candidate that will determine what a Democratic victory would actually mean. What the party is going to stand for -- and where it is going to go in the future, in terms of its role in the nation.

In my opinion, Edwards is the candidate among the contenders who would stand the best chance of getting away from the DLC Corporate mentality that has been too dominant. Even if he were to not get the nomination, more numbers for him in the primaries would force the ultimate nominee to pay attention to the liberal/progressive agenda.



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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. I was going to vote my heart, Kucinich, until he made the Ron Paul
comments. That made me question my vote and question Kucinich. Now I'm leaning, heartwise, toward Obama, although I think Edwards might do a better job. Can't decide, can't decide, can't decide. All I know is I don't want Hillary. There's a good chance that if Edwards or Obama comes out of Iowa strong, they'll get my vote in New Hampshire.
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. That's great.
There's no reason that one of the big 3 can't be your heart's choice. They just aren't mine.
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. I did the same thing you did.
After the Ron Paul comments I picked the man who I felt had the closest platform to Dennis. I wish Obama was that person because I would of loved to see a Black man as President but alas JE seems to say the right things and I had to go with my head not my heart.
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elizm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Yes, Edwards does seem to 'say the right things'...
But did he say any of those things before he decided to run for President? Did his record in the Senate reflect the things he is saying today? I'm just asking.
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. These are the questions we should be asking.
Political expedience is inexcusable when it comes to either a voting record, or their current stance on issues.
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
9. each election cycle becomes increasingly critical.
popularity contests won't work anymore. I need, but more importantly this country needs a candidate who will get us out of this war and restore the constitution, as well as accountability.
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. that's what I'm saying
The right is voting for the candidates who actually represent what they want (theocracy, racism, slavery) why aren't we voting for what we want rather than just "who can win against THEM"?

I want national health care, intelligence, constitutionally aware leadership, workers rights, etc... are we going to get those things from the big three if it isn't "politically expedient?" I don't think so.

Vote for the one who represents your views, not the one who you think can win against "them."

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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
12. Can't Vote My Heart. Gore isn't Running
Any Democrat running would make a better President than Bush** or any of the Repiglicons who are running to replace him, but that is setting the bar pretty low.

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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. It IS setting the bar low... too low.
To vote based on "who can win against 'them'" is a loser mentality. We aren't losers. We are the winners in everyway. When our genuine platform and demands are compared against theirs we win every time. So why base your vote on who can "win against them" it's the lowest possible standard you could have. Let's base our votes on who is the best.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. The Best is Gore. Can We Draft Him At The Convention?
I ALSO think Gore is the one who can win. Perhaps the only one. He has found the way to get his message out despite the Mighty Slime Machine.

Hillary and Obama are far more vulnerable to being Swift Boated than Kerry was. The Mighty Slime Machine has been gearing up for years to really go after Hillary. They haven't had as long with Obama, but he is a much easier target.

Edwards has made the same fatal error Kerry did of accepting matching funds, which means that any Swift Boat-type attack that is picked up by the MSM sinks his campaign since he will not have the resources to fight it and keep the campaign going full-steam through October. He is a pretty easy target too. Look how much mileage they got out of a friggin haircut. (Maybe I should run. I haven't had a haircut in years).

Not only is Biden unelectable, but after the Rave Act and the bankruptcy bill, I would not want him to be our nominee.

We all love Dennis Kucinich, but no way is he going to be President, and the flirtation with RP has given many of us pause.

My heart and my head say:
draft gore!
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. How does this draft work? n/t
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. A Deadlocked Convention Might Draft Someone
If someone has enough delegates to win on the first round, there isn't any way. If not, anything goes.

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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Given how the current delegate/convention process works, I doubt it
Conventions are little more than dog & pony shows these days-- the real work takes place beforehand, and the nominee is usually selected after the first couple primaries (or even BEFORE the first primary ballot is cast, if you believe some people).

Gore will not be the nominee in '08.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. What If Our Nominee-Apparent Has Been SwiftBoated Successfully By Then and is Trailing in the Polls?
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 07:41 PM by AndyTiedye
Would the certainty of a disastrous defeat change nothing?

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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. when has the certainty of disaster ever changed the Democrats path? n/t
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Not unless all a new candidate can get a majority of the delegates
Very unlikely that will happen.

The last convention that actually had anything resembling "brokering" was in 1960, and even that one wasn't very close. Like I said before, conventions are just media events. No real work goes on there.
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
19. The winner in November 2008 won't affect my life,
but if it isn't Edwards, it will affect my heart.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. If It's Huckabee, It Will Affect Your Life More Than You Can Possibly Imagine


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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Nope, this won't affect my life either....
I'm definitely financially secure for the rest of my life....but I do know a Democrat in the Oval Office will indeed raise my taxes. I'm fine with that, as long as it's Edwards, who will indeed help raise the rest of America UP, and won't that make us ALL happier ?

We have work to do...Vote Edwards !
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Bill Todd Donating Member (245 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
26. Head & heart - both
I've been slow making up my mind this year:

Dennis's positions have as usual been very good, but also as usual I question both his ability to win and his ability to govern effectively even if he did win (not that I wouldn't take that in a millisecond over what we have now, of course). My feelings about Mike Gravel are similar, but my acquaintance with him is much more limited (love his YouTube videos, though).

I was lucky enough to meet Edwards in a small, informal setting last month and found him far more relaxed than he seemed in 2004, with solidly progressive stances across the board. This does not appear to be the same John Edwards as the freshman Senator who got bamboozled by Bush 5+ years ago into supporting the Patriot Act and Iraq War Resolution (I'm willing to give him a pass for his October, 2004 expression of support for the latter, which he has since repudiated: as Kerry's running mate, what else could he say?), nor the bland-and-slick freshman presidential candidate of 4 years ago: like Al Gore since Y2K, he seems to have found his real voice, and given his former profession as an effective courtroom advocate for the weak against the strong it's at least somewhat believable. His position on Iraq (immediate draw-down of 50,000 combat troops with all the rest gone within well under a year, leaving a military presence only sufficient to protect the embassy) seems acceptable, and while I lean toward a single-payer solution for health care his proposal includes a guaranteed universal expansion of Medicare as a reasonable-cost *option* which would effectively become single-payer if enough people chose it rather than conventional insurers (and it has the potential benefit of keeping both the insurers *and* the government program on their toes by having them compete against each other, not to mention being far less susceptible to charges of "Socialized medicine!" from the right than a direct move to single-payer would be). And of course it doesn't hurt (IMO) that Nader considers him the only front-runner who might be sufficiently progressive for him to support.

I braved yet another early snowstorm to hear Obama speak last Thursday evening and (to my surprise and regret) came away unimpressed. He's bright, articulate, personable, a good communicator, and has a great resume, but while he's superficially progressive on most issues he just doesn't seem to have all that much depth (not that vast amounts of detail in stump speeches is all that common, but leaving such a speech feeling pretty much empty is not satisfying) - his ill-advised (though perhaps since reconsidered) support for liquefied coal being perhaps one case in point. He seemed in some ways to be channeling the form of Howard Dean's buoyantly populist 2003 campaign but without most of its substance.

But then came the point where he announced his intention to ensure that America's military might remained the greatest in world history - which clearly means at least as great as it is today. This significantly transcends the typical "I'm no dove!" rhetoric that Democrats seem to feel compelled to include these days: it's an unequivocal assertion that even after the demise of the Cold War stand-off we need to spend more than the rest of the world combined to maintain a military establishment sufficient for world domination, when if anything the past few years have conclusively demonstrated that *we can't be trusted* with that level of military might and that both we and the rest of the world would be far better off if we had to find ways to achieve consensus rather than impose our own will. He did give diplomacy a nod soon thereafter, but by saying we needed it *also* rather than to ensure that use of force (or even threats of force) was an absolutely last resort limited to the truly extreme circumstances that (for example) Edwards clearly specifies in his discussion of the matter on his Web site. He seems to have little problem with the idea of U.S. world domination as long as it's what he'd consider to be *benevolent* domination - which sounds more like a kinder, gentler neocon than like the kind of president that I'm looking for.

Later he mentioned that his primary concern with the Iraq war was the level of U.S. military deaths (followed a bit thereafter by commenting that a significant additional concern was the $9 billion per month price tag). With Iraqi deaths running several hundred times the U.S. body count and that country's infrastructure falling apart, this seems a staggeringly insensitive and/or parochial view.
I came away with the impression that he's probably a decent man who lacks the depth to guide him through the really tough decisions that a president is sometimes called upon to make - and the humility to seek sufficient counsel to make up for that lack should such circumstances arise.

The rest of the field is just way too corporate/beltway for my taste - even Richardson, whom I was at least willing to give a chance. So I guess it's Edwards for me both from the head and from the heart, though I wish his NH poll standings were better.

- bill
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-27-07 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. thank you for the thoughtful post.
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