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Why do Edwards supporters give him a free pass on his vote for the Iraq War?

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UrbScotty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 04:31 PM
Original message
Why do Edwards supporters give him a free pass on his vote for the Iraq War?
I knew it was wrong to go to war in Iraq so did Barack Obama and millions of other Amiercans. And so did 23 US Senators.

Why didn't Edwards get it?

Why didn't he show the judgment we should expect in public servvants? And why should we assume that he has in five short years gained the judgment we need in a President?
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. Not just voted for, he co-sponsored
And he gets a pass because he apologized for it and he's telling the people what they want to hear.
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. We don't. Trust me.
But I respect his apology, though it doesn't right his lack of judgment.

I'm focused on what's his agenda for America.

I like what he brings to the table, and his vision for our country.

And he's on the right side of the issue, he wants the war to end. And he's fighting hard to make it happen, and calling on Congress to show a little backbone.

Only DK has got the war issue COMPLETELY right.

Obama wasn't in the Senate when the IWR vote happened, and has voted for funding the war.

No ones perfect. Especially on Iraq.
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MissDeeds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
24. I agree
We don't give him a pass, and we hold him accountable. We do, however, recognize that he admits it was a mistake - unlike some who voted for it and refuse to acknowledge it was a mistake.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
3. Simple, we don't give him a "free pass"
After thoughtful reflection, and after hearing Edwards say his vote was wrong, we can evaluate the 2008 race.

Obama's homophobic concerts were just two months ago, however. Are you saying he has gained judgment in two months and that he wouldn't hire ex-gay clowns to sermonize at his fundraisers again?
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
4. He bought into the crap pie, and he now admits it.
He was sucked in, just like many,many otehr politicians and average people were sucked in.

What his positions are today is what matters to me.
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
5. In my case, it's because I supported the war too.
Lots of people who should've known better did.

(Lots of folks don't admit it now.)

Oh, and I am not an actual Edwards supporter. I honestly don't know who I'll vote for in the primary. But I sure haven't counted Edwards out.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. That's a brave admission.
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #6
36. I've owned up to it before, in here.
Occasionally I'll mention it again, because I think those who know me know that I'm genuine in my opposition to the Bush Crime Family, and such folks need to know that not all of us who supported the invasion of Iraq did so for craven, self-serving reasons.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. Glad you
came around to not supporting the war on Iraq.
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #17
35. Thanks but there wasn't much "coming around" for me to do.
I was sold on the war because I believed as I was told by people I trusted, within the "liberal" New Republic and other intelligentsia (whom I now more accurately refer to as "wankers"), that there would be a net benefit to liberating Iraq.

I was one of those poor, pathetic fools who really thought it would be, even though it wasn't being sold that way to John Q. Public, primarily a humanitarian mission. People being harmed by our embargoes would get the medicine and food they needed; we'd install a more humane, representative government, etc.

I figured even though I knew, if successful, it'd mean that Bush would be re-elected, that I cared more about us cleaning up the mess we'd created with the first Gulf War than my party's prospects for success. I thought it came down to a matter of international human rights.

It became very clear, very soon, that these crooks and liars had no intention of making Iraq autonomous, and weren't interested in reining in the lawlessness that any sane person could've foreseen. I'd been had. That's why I can accept others for admitting as much, even though (in Edwards' case) it was for different reasons.

(I never believed that Saddam posed an imminent threat to us, nor did I buy the "WMD" bullshit. I thought that was a shiny-object distraction, selling the sizzle rather than the steak.)
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CherokeeDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
7. Edwards Supporters
Edited on Tue Dec-18-07 04:44 PM by CherokeeDem
...at least this Edwards' supporter believed him when he apologized for his vote unlike another candidate that has not. Was he wrong to vote to allow the Iraq war? Absolutely, but so were a lot of other Democrats. I knew, and you knew, and so did a lot of other people but not everyone thought the way we did. As for his judgment, I think it is just fine and in the last 4 years he has traveled extensively in Europe, the Middle East, and Africa to see in person what the situations are in the world. That gives him as much experience as someone else in the race who purports their "travel experience". So, you may never support John Edwards, but there are many of us who do. Could your candidate also have issues? I think so.


Edit...I can't type!
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
8. Well
He has made progress, now hasn't he? And isn't that what we are all about?

He even admitted he was wrong. And that's about the first time I've ever heard a politician admit he was wrong.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. It is what it's all about..
and so startlingly obvious compared to the ones who have their heels dug in and won't admit they were wrong EVER or are wrong now.

That's it..just plow ahead with blinders until you meet that cliff.
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
9. Maybe we forget what the climate was like, and the lies we were fed.
I never liked the war, but I will admit at the time I was able to shrug and accept what was told to me was valid. I also thought it would be a surgical victory like they told us. Edwards wasn't the only one in Washington who was swept up in the biggest lie of our era fed to us in a patriotic package. And now he sees what went down, admits he too was fooled, and is ready to right the wrongs of this lying administration. I think he won't be so easily fooled again, nor will I.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
10. Honestly?
Because they've bought the bill of goods he's sold them.

They either don't know or don't care about his conservative DLC voting record. They chose to believe his rhetoric over his record ("Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice... won't get fooled again...").

I may not like much about Edwards, but I will say he's a heck of a salesman. Very few sales people could sell you a car that costs more in repairs than it was worth or a video game that destroyed your child's mind and have you come back begging for more just because he says he and/or his product has "changed."

:shrug:

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
11. I won't vote in the primary for anyone who voted for that fucking genocidal war
Doesn't mean I hate those who voted for it, it's just I won't endorse that vote in the primary. But actually, I'm less troubled by his IWR vote than I am by his association and investments in Fortress, and by what I see as his lack of personal leadership on the environment.
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AndyA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
12. This one again? What, has it already been 5 minutes since the last one?
I certainly don't give Edwards "a pass" on his vote for the Iraq war.

I just find his faults (which all candidates have) are much less offensive to me than the others. And I want change, not just a change of faces, I want REAL CHANGE.

I want corporations out of our government.

I want someone who doesn't owe every lobbyist in town a favor.

I want someone who is willing to admit they've made a mistake, and then take steps to correct it.

I want someone who understands we are all equal.

Edwards is simply the best match for those requirements (and there are more). Edwards perhaps didn't "get it" at the time, but he's got it now, and I think he's the best candidate to fix the many problems the next President will inherit from All Hat No Cattle.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. it's so lame to see the whining of some Edwards supporters.
Just because you think he's all that and not deserving of any criticism, doesn't mean others feel the same way.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
13. It kind of limits the selection of candidates to dump based on single votes
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
14. I don't give him a free pass on anything
The last time he spoke at Berkeley, I asked him exactly how he was "taking responsibility" for his vote. He honestly didn't have that great of an answer. If I ever get a chance to talk to him again, I'll grill him on his silly stance on gay marriage.

My support of Edwards comes from his current anti-corporate message and his passion for economic justice. I honestly don't care who raises these issues as long as someone is raising them.

Even Hillary, if she adopted Edwards' platform I'd support her in a second.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. No worries..hillary has
her own non-platform, "working for change" that will never develope.
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. He has an anti-corporate message, but IS he anti-corporate?
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Yes, I believe he
is, Dutch.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. I think he's sincere, but I honestly don't care
If he wins the nomination on a strong anti-corporate platform, you'll see a lot of populists "coming out" as they run for office. He'll likely win in a landslide which will push the country further to the left.

This is a case where the message is more important than the man.
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Tejanocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
15. Do you know what the vote was in the Senate?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. I do. And he should have listened to the warnings of
Leahy, Kennedy, Feingold and others. Hell, even Jim Jeffords and Linc Chafee knew better than to trust bush. I think it was 22 or 23 Senators who knew better or didn't put their political ambitions ahead of the welfare of the world. And Biden and Dodd deserve even more criticism for their votes.
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Tejanocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Democrats who made the same mistake: Biden, Dodd, Clinton, Kerry, Reid, Cleland, Harkin, Daschle
Baucus, Bayh, Breaux, Cantwell, Carnahan, Carper, Cleland, Dorgan, Feinstein, Hollings, Johnson, Kohl, Landrieu, Lincoln, Miller, Nelson, Nelson, Rockefeller, Schumer, and Torricelli.

I was drawn to Kucinich because he got the war resolution right and because he is the most progressive candidate.

The next most progressive candidate is Edwards - and he got the war resolution wrong, the next Most Dodd - and he got it wrong too, and then the next most Biden - and he also got it wrong.

Richardson wasn't in the Senate but he's said he would have supported the resolution, and he's not even all that progressive.

Clinton got it wrong and she's a centrist, too.

That leaves Obama and Kucinich (or vanity candidate Gravel).

Kucinich is my top choice although Dodd and Edwards have moved up with Kucinich.

If I was a one issue voter, I guess I'd have to have Obama as my back up to Kucinich. But Obama is just wrong on too many issues.

I won't settle for the 5th most progressive candidate just because the most progressive hasn't caught on with the voters and the next three most progressive got the war resolution wrong.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. So far the only thing progessive about him is his rhetoric
I'm just not sure he's genuine. It's really that simple for me.
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UrbScotty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. Agreed (nt)
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
16. Because I think he's
evolved from that "stockholm"/"strong on national security" mentality or I wouldn't support him.
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kimmerspixelated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
18. Certainly he has recognized his error.
Also, we were for Kerry as well, with the same kind of problem. Thankfully, Edwards isn't known as a flip-flopper.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
20. I have not given him a free pass.
I'm not a single issue voter. With the choices I'm presented with, John Edwards is the obvious Progressive. His plan his good. His position on the issues are sound.

I have made many, many mistakes in my life. I'm a different person now in many ways than the person I was say, ten years ago. We live, we learn. As a grown up person, I have to believe people can change.

Al Gore seems stronger, like a more honest and better person than he was in 2000. He's had a true transformation. Why can't Edwards on the issue of the war?
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. It can be and it is..
I know I've come a long way since 2000, haven't you?

That's the whole point.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Exactly-
I'm not very big on people who have no ability to change their minds.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
32. I suspect it's for the same reason CA voters gave RFK a "pass" on his early support
for the Vietnam War, and his early, strident "anti-communism." (He was even a cohort of Joe McCarthy's.)

They sense a genuine change of heart, and BELIEVE that people can change, and think that people changing, in response to new information or new perceptions, is a good thing.

It's a hard call. Is a politician just "blowing with the wind"? Or has he really changed his mind about a policy, or gone through a deep change on one or many issues?

One reason that it is a hard call is that, given the size of this country, and the ungodly power of the war profiteering corporate news monopolies, especially in the current era, it is difficult to get a good "read" on national candidates--to understand what their policies really are, and who they really are. And it is harder today--much, much harder--than it was in the 1960s. One plus of the increase in corporate news monopoly power, however, is that you can be pretty sure that whomever they favor is bad for the American people, and whomever they dislike would probably be good. It's a good rule of thumb on progressive issues and the goodness or badness of candidates to adhere to the opposite of what the corporate monopolies are trying to assert. You can't go far wrong.

I remember that CA Democratic primary in 1968 very well. I voted for Eugene McCarthy** (against Bobby), although I knew that Eugene McCarthy wouldn't win, and maybe didn't even want to. He had challenged LBJ in New Hampshire, on the Vietnam War, and had driven LBJ out of the race. McCarthy didn't even win the New Hampshire primary. He just did well against LBJ, who then decided not to run for a second term. Enter Bobby Kennedy. The question for the Left was: Was Bobby sincere? He had taken up the cause of the young against the Vietnam War, and was running a very charismatic campaign, drawing support from many progressive communities--on civil rights, on U.S. policy in Latin America, on the aspirations of the poor at home and abroad. As a Eugene McCarthy skeptic, I took a hard look at Bobby. And I have to say I was impressed. I think the man had a genuine change of heart, possibly inspired by great leftist leaders like Martin Luther King (who had come out publicly against the Vietnam War a year before, and had been assassinated three months before the CA Democratic primary.) I voted for McCarthy on the basis of, oh, say 10% skepticism. I was 90% for Bobby. But I wanted to "send him a message," as they say. "Be true to your supporters, Bobby. End the war!" He won the CA primary in a landslide.

Bang, bang. Shoot, shoot.

I guess he was genuine, eh? Why would the Dark Lords have bothered otherwise?

Edwards reminds me a lot of Bobby. Bobby voted for the Gulf of Tonkin resolution (escalation of the Vietnam War) in 1964, probably for the same reason that I believe Edwards voted for the IWR in 2002: ambition for power. But both politicians had intentions of USING power differently than the warmongers. They both judged that they could not buck the war profiteers directly, as Senators, and survive a "no" vote with any viability left to run for higher office. They would be stopped before they started. That's my opinion. But both had/have strong progressive views, that were causing them a lot of internal struggle--and their progressive views were unleashed with great energy, in starting campaigns for president on a progressive tide. In other words, they became RESPONSIVE to the people, and more true to what they really believed.

Also, both voted for these wars during very dark, scary periods. Bobby, a year after his brother was assassinated. And Edwards, in the blackest, scariest atmosphere our nation has ever seen in Washington DC--replete with pervasive Bushite spying (and no doubt blackmail), rampant crime (torture, etc.) and massive thievery, with the Anthrax letters and Paul Wellstone's mysterious plane crash hovering over all. We may feel contempt for ambitious men in that situation, who don't vote their conscience, but we aren't THEM--we didn't have targets on our backs--and, in both cases, the war votes were inevitable ("Gulf of Tonkin"--only two votes against; the IWR, only 25% votes against--certainly a big improvement, but still the tide in Congress was overwhelmingly pro-war). They went with the majority--amidst pervasive disinformation being used on the public, and on Congress members--and bided their time. Was this spinelessness, or wisdom? --or just smart political calculation, in difficult circumstances?

ALL politicians are calculating. You can't blame them for being political animals. It's a very hard call. And, really, it comes down to a gut call. Was Bobby--and is Edwards--a total cynic and Machiavellian? I'm at the 90% point on Edwards, in favor of genuineness. I may vote for Kucinich in the CA primary, for the same reason I voted for McCarthy in 1968: to keep a potentially great president true to his commitment to the voters, and true to his own progressive change.

A big difference between now and then is that, now, the fascists don't have to eliminate progressive candidates with bullets or plane crashes. They have Diebold and ES&S (--'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY programming code, in all the voting machines, owned and controlled by rightwing Bushite corporations). And of course they have total control of the news media (except for the internet). So, who knows what will happen? The stakes are very, very high, as they were in 1968, when the post-WW II military budget and its profiteers gained a stranglehold on our country, with the Vietnam War. Will we never have a peace economy? Not if they can help it.

------------------

**(Sen. Eugene McCarthy. No relation to the earlier Sen. Joe McCarthy--infamous for his anti-communist crusade against leftists, progressives and union leaders. Robert Kennedy was Joe McCarthy's legal counsel--circa 1950s. Both JFK and RFK were "Cold Warriors." However, they both changed considerably after JFK became president--and opposed the CIA in the "Bay of Pigs" invasion of Cuba, prevented nuclear war with the Soviet Union in the Cuban Missile Crisis, and grew steadily in understanding of many issues, including civil rights, nuclear disarmament, labor issues, U.S. Latin American policy (Bobby, later), the dangers of CIA and FBI secrecy and the "secret government," and the games the CIA was playing in Southeast Asia. JFK signed executive orders withdrawing U.S. military "advisers" from Vietnam just before he was assassinated.)



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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. Kicking this post--Seriously recommended reading.
Thank you for your perspective; it was worthy of a thread-starter.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
34. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
38. The Edwardians gave him a free pass on his entire Senate carrer.
When he wanted to be popular *then* he was for certain things. Today, he wants to be popular *now* so he's changed almost all his positions to fit the polling data.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
39. Can you show me the ROLL CALL vote of Obama?
Cause the way I see it...he doesn't show up to vote for many votes NOW that could end up biting him in the ass, so it isn't a far leap to wonder IF he had to ACTUALLY cast a vote...would he have even done it? THAT is the million dollar question.
As it is, he was able to be on the outside looking in stating a safe OPINION that, had the war turned out successful he could have said that he didn't have enough information to make a completely informed opinion--or as it turns out--since it went bad, he can say he was right all along.
By the way...nobody gives Edwards a pass.
He was wrong, he admitted it, apologized, and we have all moved on.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
40. I might be supporting him if he had come around in 2004 instead of waiting until 2008
Wayne Morse and Ernest Gruening got Vietnam right before Bobby Kennedy, Gene McCarthy, and George McGovern did but those guys at least came around when it was still politically controversial to do so. Ed Muskie and Hubert Humphrey waited until they were running in 1972 to come out against Vietnam because the country was fed up with the war and it was politically safe to do so. I'd put Edwards in the Muskie/Humphrey camp on Iraq.
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