I remember when DUers were overwhelmingly AGAINST the BFEE

[Bongo Prophet]

But now, because Bill wants to make nice with Poppy to the extent of travelling the world to tell them that "WE ARE OPEN FOR BUSINESS" again, it is A-OK.

Just because you are for a candidate, please do NOT let it make you BLIND TO HISTORY.

I am NOT talking about tsunami or any benign charity.
I AM talking about RESTORING the BUSH NAME worldwide, when that "brand" should be crushed in the dustbin of history.
I AM talking about marking a very clear line between the behavior of Democrats and Neocons, including so called "moderate" Baker/Bush Internationalists.

After all the DAMAGE that will likely take DECADES or more to heal even a portion, and the 100s of thousands of lives never to see the light of day - some of you just think that is fine, JUST BECAUSE IT IS YOUR CANDIDATE.


Are you people insane? Does ANYTHING go, just because you like a certain candidate?
Do you people even REMEMBER Iran/Contra, BCCI, Carlyle Group and on and on?
Do you REALLY want Bushes to be respected on the world stage and associate the Clinton's name in the same breath?

Those who forget or rationalize this history of blood/arms/drug running will be complicit in its CONTINUANCE.

I am NOT saying you have to ABANDON Hillary or Bill - but consider LETTING THEM KNOW YOU ARE NOT PLEASED ABOUT THIS.
If you have ANY morals at ALL, PLEASE consider this CAREFULLY.

This is MADNESS.

[Dr Fate]

1. DLCers also supported Lieberman. Why does their affiliaton with ideological soulmates suprise you?

They defended & supported Joe (I-3rd Party), they defend Bush Sr today on DU, but they mistrust us "crazy internet Democrats"- got it?

The problem is DU didnt used to have a bunch of Lieberman supporting DLCers running around telling everyone how to be good DEMS (AKA how to be more conservative).

[Bongo Prophet]

2. I am more PISSED OFF than surprised, Dr. Fate.

You are absolutely correct that it is part and parcel of a long history of collusion.

Edit to add:

I also agree that major INFILTRATION has been occurring.
They are quite RUDE and calling the ones who KNOW the dark history names "Stupid, insane, haters, irrational, etc etc, ad nauseum"
Dammit, I have been here since 2001, and these new know-nothing apologists are messing up the place.

I could make a joke about "doing donuts on our lawn" but this is really too important.

[Dr Fate]

3. I'm with you- I dont even know why Lieberman & Bush Sr. defenders are still at DU.

They have done nothing but make this place suck.

Imagine my suprise a s a poster for many years- when I came to DU one day and was told "Liberals like you are crazy" or something to that effect. Wha? "Liberal" being used in the negative- at DU???? Besides, I'm a moderate.

I thought it was a fluke- but then it kept coming. Next I was being called "far left looney" and "out of touch" for opposing Bush/DLC positions on Iraq, or asking why DEMS dont call him out when he lies- or having the GALL to question failed DLC/Bluedog led, Donna Brazille type "strategy" that lost us 3 elections in a row.

Again, I assumed it was a fluke- some disruptor that the mods had not noticed yet.

Next thing I know they are a full contingency at DU- to the point where they were OPENLY and PROUDLY supporting Joe Lieberman- this was even AFTER he threatened to go 3rd party if Lamont won-and after he beat the DEM as well.

This really sickened me, considering how I had joined some of the same "moderate" DUers in arguing against Nader voters- I thought that if anything, they were at least loyal party DEMS when it came down to that- but they were dishonest even about that.

Yeah- it pisses me off too- being Liberal or progressive, or an anti-Bush moderate didnt used to be a reason to be attacked here.

[Bongo Prophet]

7. We are seeing the same thing here, Dr. This is a tipping point for me.

I really try to be a calm historical and philosophical poster.
I live in Texas, and so with late primary - am trying to stay out of the tit for tat of primary season.

I have even defended Hillary against attacks that were sexist or otherwise unfairly based, as I have other candidates.
Because real discussion is HEALTHY for our party and our democracy.

And then the infestation - to a great extent this late summer/fall.
Little talking point one liners, adding NOTHING but driving away discussion.
Childish, schoolyard taunts.
Namecalling.

These people are insulting and attacking long time DUers for whom I have long read and greatly respect, including yourself.
Driving away the good ones, and leaving ..what? Childish snarking equivalent of FR?

We who have stuck together through much pain and struggle.
We who have been RIGHT about just about everything, and tried to WARN others, and informed many of the historical trends that led us to this point.
YES, we argued over the best candidates and strategies, but it never descended to COMPLICITY with the Bushes.

NO ONE EVER rationalized THAT!

I tried to make nice.
I TRIED to even ask directly if they could back off a notch to make healing easier and pull TOGETHER to get the Dem nominee into the WH.
I was IGNORED each time.
These instigators are now my enemy, just as the GOP and BFEE are my enemy.

[Ignis]

52. How DARE you be civil! :)

"I have even defended Hillary against attacks that were sexist or otherwise unfairly based, as I have other candidates.
Because real discussion is HEALTHY for our party and our democracy."

That's it in a nutshell, for me: That's what makes DU great.

I've been accused of being a member of the "Clintonstapo" for objecting when people post RW/sexist pictures/accusations against Hillary, and then called a "Hillary Hater" two seconds later in the same thread! It's unbelievable how low the bar has fallen for polite commentary at DU.

As long as they have a (D) after their name, we criticize, we don't demonize, damnit!

[Bongo Prophet]

73. DUers that know me, know that I am pretty low key and fair. But cozying up to Poppy to that extent?

It pushed me over the line.
And the supporters who are not acting like citizens who hold their candidates to task - but rather treat them as unquestionable sovereigns - is beneath contempt.

When someone on DU says they want a Republican, they get canned.
When a Dem who says he wants the Godfather of the darkside of GOP to be a "goodwill" ambassador?
Well.
Dem stands for Democrat, not DEMIGOD.

And her supporters should get off their knees. It is unbecoming to democracy.

[Generator]

61. You don't

honestly believe that say 50% of them on DU are actually for Hillary Clinton for president do you? They are punking us and having a grand old time! And some of their posts are entertaining as their reasons why Hillary is a good choice.

Sure some are sincere-for whatever reason, first woman president, they loved Bill Clinton, they want to blindly believe in any front runner, but I have never believed this LOVE for Hillary Clinton. Never. It defies reality. I am so sick of my reality being fucked with. That's what Bush and the RepubliCONS have done for many years. Reminds me of Hillary saying her vote for Kyle/Lieberman is the REASON Iran disarmed the nuclear programme. She's as full of shit as Bush.

The nation and DU are not in love with Hillary Clinton and they never will be.

[Bongo Prophet]

71. No, and I never said that. This really isn't PRIMARILY about HRC, but about how blind

people can be when they slavishly suck up to a candidate, rather than be principled and consistent.

If one knows abou the Bush crimes of Prescott, Poppy, W et al - and the sheer MAGNITUDE of those crimes - then a PRINICIPLED person would at the very least take their candidate to task for that.
Even if they like a candidate, they should not be lackeys to them.

It is my opinion that you are correct in your assessment, we are being punked (infiltrated) - and the part of being sick of your reality being fucked with is So right on SO many levels.
We are being played, and have been for generations.
I agree with you.

[Mythsaje]

12. I think some people just don't get the fact

that "moderate" doesn't really mean, "get on board with the corporate dominance and destruction of America."

"Moderate" means generally opposing radical change and believing that timely, effective progress with all due consideration regarding what one seeks to change, and all the possible consequences thereof is a far more rational course of action.

I don't see why "moderate" or "centrist" has come to mean "satisfied with the status quo." That is, frankly, a conservative position. And not what the RW means by "conservative," which, as we know, is more radically "reactionary" than "conservative.

[Dr Fate]

19. I dont see how supporting a war based on lies, or opposing accountability is "moderate" either.

In fact, I would say opposing wars based on lies and being for accountability are not even left positions, but pretty neutral, middle of the stuff if you really break it down-yet I had every insult they could get away with thrown at me for saying so.

[Mythsaje]

47. Baffling, isn't it?

Kool-aid abounds.

[0007]

92. The fact is two old farts are gonna cover up for the past and the present

[FREEWILL56]

119. And as with all farts, it stinks and seems to ripen with age making it worse.

[sendero]

127. Well said...

.. I consider myself a moderate, even slightly conservative on some issues. There is no place in any philosophy for excusing being lied into war, being sold out to the rich, having the constitution trashed.

Those things are radical, and if Americans weren't stuck in a media-induced coma, they'd not put up with it.

[blm]

31. Tell it like it is Doc. If you KNOW about the BFEE you CAN'T ACCEPT rehabbing of Poppy Bush

by any Dem let alone the last Dem president and one who wants to be the next Dem president.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/100307.html

How much more obvious does it have to be to realize that a vote for Clinton is a vote for PROTECTING BushInc......again.

[Cha]

36. I knew you were

right about this and it just gets more blatantly obvious.

[blm]

38. Thanks, zidzi. Your understanding of all of this means alot to me.

.

[Cha]

40. Been through the

opposing trenches and then new shit came to light! :hug:

[Bongo Prophet]

74. Zidzi, as a long timer, I knew you would be on the side of light.

Too smart to be blinded by the glare of unquestioning loyalty.
Thank you for being you. :hi:

[pberq]

67. Unbelievable!

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/100307.html

. . .If investigators had dug out the full truth about alleged secret operations involving George H.W. Bush, the family’s reputation would have been badly tarnished, if not destroyed.

Since that reputation served as the foundation for George W. Bush’s political career, it’s unlikely that he ever would have gained the momentum to propel him to the Republican presidential nomination, let alone to the White House.

[Capn Sunshine]

77. NO PARDONS

That should be a question at Hillary's next event. Hell, Obama's too. I want ACCOUNTABILITY for criminal actions taken by members of this administration, and I was gratified to see Dodd et al take a first step the other day.

I think they know Hillary is their best shot at blanket pardons.

Guess what. We're going to have to be thinking in terms of a massive Nuremberg-like trial (s) with special prosecutors that involves Justice, not Congress.

[karynnj]

126. You will not be surprised to know that my first thought reading BC's bizzarre comment

was that this is the perfect quote for BLM on the Clinton/Bush cover up.

[robinlynne]

105. I so agree. for some reason the mods let them remain here.

[WileEcoyote]

110. I'm not concerned that you dislike the DLC

or even the "Blue Dog" Democrats.

I do get a little alarmed when there seems to be no room for dissent sometimes though. There are plenty of "scared cows" in the Democratic party.

Don't believe me? Heh!

I'd like to post a copy of the late Edward Abbey's "Immigration & Liberal Taboos" here some day. He wrote it in the mid 1980's and it was very prescient of the condition that exists today.

However if one were to copy and paste that admirable work here he/she would probably get bounced.

Now Edward Abbey was one of the greatest thinkers and environmental activists of the 20th century. He was also a champion of unions, teachers, and even native cultures like the Kurds and the Hopi.

What greater Liberal has the world ever seen before or since he died in March of 1989?

However his essay: "Immigration & Liberal Taboos" would be considered offensive, racist and demeaning before it even got five replies. The subscriber would surely get bounced in a second...

You may enjoy posting and reading here at D/U, but do not ever consider this joint a true Democracy. Not for one minute. If you do you will get banned.

Even THIS post (here) could be considered grounds for my own dismissal. Simply by my pointing out the common censorship. If so?

Well it's been nice ta meet ya!

[Seabiscuit]

101. Speaking of "major INFILTRATION"

WTF else was the DLC doing but infiltrating the 2000 Gore campaign by pressuring him to accept Joe Loserman on his ticket? Loserman was a right-wing infiltrator who helped destroy Gore's campaign strategy.

Personally, I'm not the least bit surprised about the "Clenis". He's had his arms around "Poppy" in front of the cameras for years on a host of issues, to my utter disgust.

[Horse with no Name]

9. IMHO

DLC are ashamed republicans.
So this makes perfect sense to me.

[glitch]

81. Good point. nt

[Cha]

35. "conservative"? Or

fascist?

[Bongo Prophet]

89. Ironically, a healthy dialectic benefits by a REAL conservative vs progressive dialog.

We are certainly far from that, alas.

[dionysus]

42. right on man

[flyarm]

90. i couldn't agree with either of you more!! and i am damn sick of it! thank you for your thread! eom

[AntiFascist]

111. Bill and Hillary are a lost cause...

all you need do is review some of the foreign policy statements made by the Progressive Policy Institute (the thinktank behind the DLC, which was created to support Bill Clinton), in particular the statements by Will Marshall, and you will see that there is little difference between them and the PNAC neocons. No wonder Bill Clinton is best buds with Bush Senior, they are all about bringing the New World Order to power.

[Mythsaje]

4. Read my "Under Pressure" Post

and kick it if you agree.

A lot of voices crying out in the wilderness can make a mighty sound.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2489405&mesg_id=2489405

[Bongo Prophet]

8. I will do that right now, Saje.

You are another of the DUers that keep me here.
Never think your contributions are less than valued. :thumbsup:

[Mythsaje]

11. Thanks

It's always nice to hear.

I think opposing the BFEE is one of the great moral battles of our time. I think it's ludicrous that anyone here should be making excuses for it. Everything we're experiencing now is at least partly the fault of those who didn't pursue legal recourse against the first Bush Administration for its perfidy before the trail had grown cold.

I certainly don't want to see a repeat of that now, when we have within our reach the possibility of finally crippling the Republican agenda for at least a generation.

[Bongo Prophet]

14. I urge anyone that sees this post to go and read Mythsaje's excellent big picture POV

You are spot on that this is a historical point in a cycle that has few opportunities to derail that particular juggernaut.
This opportunity is too rare to waste.

REPUDIATION is needed now, not "healing between parties" and certainly not dragging Poppy out as if he was not the CRUX of the evil spanning generations.
What does the GOP want?
Feudalism and that other F word.
What do they call bipartisanship?
Date rape.
What do they want in terms of a two party system?
NEUTERED DEMOCRATS.
What is their idea of government?
DROWNED in a soup of Disaster Capitalism.

That much is clear to ANYONE who has been paing attention.
As I know that YOU have.

[Mythsaje]

15. This could be the beginning of the end

of the new Gilded Age.

Or we can allow things to go on the way they have been. But to do that would most likely mean our ultimate destruction.

Seems a pretty simple choice to me.

[lonestarnot]

64. And I have been PAYING some attention!

[Bongo Prophet]

76. Heh, yeah my fingers spell like crap when they are angry.

;)

[lonestarnot]

128. Mine don't need to be angry.

;)

[Mythsaje]

10. Self Delete...replied to myself

[rAVES]

5. If Hillary supporters where in anyway rational, they would not support her..

expect this to fall on deaf ears.

[Bongo Prophet]

13. Yes, deaf ears and operatives. Yet consider it a rallying cry of one who has tried to play nice.

i am not easily riled, but there comes a point in which a line is crossed.
If that has happened to me, a rather easy going pragmatic progressive, it is happening to others as well.

I had been toying with the idea of "High Road DUers" taking back the commons here.
It may have to be a bit more radical than that.
Maybe by next weekend, I will start on some new and longer form ideas.
Have spent too much time here in midweek - have a website that needs to be worked on for a client.

I don't want to frame it as pro or con regarding any particular candidate, as it is on a higher level than that.
It is really not even about what point on a political spectrum anyone is, so much as respectful dialog and dialectical information sharing.
Indeed, just simple respect for fellow humans.
This shit has gone too far.

[progressivebydesign]

66. Gosh, I happen to be "rational".. what's your next slam against me?

signed, a PROUD Senator Clinton Supporter. (p.s. her name is Senator Hillary Clinton. None of the male candidates are referred to by their first name, why her?)

[Bongo Prophet]

82. Because her campaign itself refers to Hillary. Take it up with them.

Actually, since it is important to you:

Her name is not Senator - that is her current title.
The correct name is Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton. I can respect that.
If I typed everyone's full name it would take up alot of time, BUT - It is hardly the issue -let's not get bogged down or distracted by that.
I am not slamming you -don't even know you. If you are indeed rational, you would address the main point. I will take your word on that unless you prove otherwise.

Here is the issue.
Bill - excuse me -President William Jefferson Clinton says that Senator Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton would, as one of her first moves as president, would be to send WJC and Poppy on tour, to announce that US is open for business again.

Fine. That would be her right to do so.

I think that we as Democrats should not be helping inANY way to restore the Bush family name by giving Poppy Bush (that IranContra secret warmanger, remember)a platform to "restore diplomacy"
It would be far better for the Bush legacy to DIE. Anthing else that paints W as an anomaly could have the effect of empowering JEB.
And JEB might even run against President Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton- maybe THAT wold give you some pause.

I think that we as Democrats should restore diplomacy around the world using DEMOCRATS. Let Ameicans know that DEMOCRATS can increase our security, balance budgets, lead in the world.
I am not sure why you chose to focus on the name, but not the OBVIOUS strategic and historical implications of taking a mass murderer around with you, and associating closely with that mass murderer.
Do you WANT to be associated with the Bush family?
Do you WANT to increase the possibility of other Bushes EVER AGAIN holding public office?

If you do not care about the US, the Democratic Party or the world - then focus only on whether you want JEB to run against President Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton.
It seems to be the ONLY thing you care about.
Please consider, come back and agree or disagree, but try to address the main issue, if you can.

[ima_sinnic]

116. heh--"Hillary" is what I call her when I'm being nice

-- so we should all now be distracted by the non-issue of her name?

I usually call her "bush-collusionist status-quo-lover corporate ass-kisser"--I feel no real respect for her, so I'm not going to pretend to to appease some deluded follower of hers.

[MagickMuffin]

6. I think you raise several GOOD points

Some of these DUers don't realize what has been happening under the Bush/Clinton/Bush Regimes. I think a lot of these DUers are too young to know their history concerning this latest craze of sending ex-presidents as good will ambassadors. I don't ever recall Nixon, Ford or Reagan ever traveling the world to promote America's good name, after it had been tarnished because of the republicons misdeeds.

Bill had the perfect opportunity to do something for our country by continuing the investigations into Iran Contra, and the BCCI. Instead he chose to let bygones be bygones. He said it was to promote bi-partisanship. Yeah, he saw how well that worked out. The republicons attacked him over his womanizing. They shut down the government any chance they could to make Bill look bad.

Ah, well strange bedfellows. I suspect the same thing will occur under the new Clinton admin. Just forget ALL about the lies that Mad king Boy George told this country. Forget about ALL the dead people around the world who have suffered under this current regime.

Nothing to see here, Move along lil' Doggies. It appears there is no crime worth punishing within this close knit circle of charlatans.

Thank you for your insight into this current disappointment from the Clinton camp. :hi:

[Bongo Prophet]

16. Singing the cows to sleep. Treating us like herd animals. GOOD ONE, MM!

I really have tried to brace myself to find the positive if HRC or Obama gets the nom.
But this INSISTENCE on buy-partisan sweeping under the rug meme that is so constantly put out as if it is a good thing?
Inviting the "Date Rapists" and "Bathtub drowners" close enough to stab us again?
WTF!

i don't know if Edwards gets it to the point he needs to.
And I could easily cry real tears over the opportunity nmissed by not having Kerry in now.
Or post 2000 Gore.

But what can we do, except as Mythsaje says - use this digital infrastructure to keep pushing and pressuring for change in the smartest way possible, so that people can see the wisdom and benefits of said changes?
It will surely take longer than we will live to get where we should have been even at the turn of this century.
Reagan's taking down of Carter's solar panels is a good symbol of such arrogant stupidity.

It may be a historical icon of our missed opportunity.

[flordehinojos]

17. TO THE SEWER WITH THE BUSHES FOREVER ... even if they drag the clintons in to the sewer with them.

[Bongo Prophet]

20. Agreed -it is too important. If they want to hitch their wagon to a falling star...

But we should NOT allow these rude mofo posters to take DU down.
DU is a great platform that, at its best, is a tool for strategizing and building community and understanding.

I do not like to see good people run off by bad behavior.
I would not suggest new people to come here at this point in time.
I SUSPECT that that is the agenda of some of these posters.

[caseycoon]

18. I've only been here for a little over a year...

but I have learned a great deal about Democrats. Or people who say they are Democrats. I am one of the "loony liberals" and proud of it. When I came here I thought most Democrats were liberal. OUCH! I stay out of the fights but really I am shocked at a lot of things folks say around here.

The Bush/Clinton relationship is so obvious & so destructive that I don't understand why everyone can't see it. They are 'kissin' cousins' & have been for way too long. Bill & Poppy are buddies & Hillary has voted for most of what W has asked for.

It will take a lot to turn our poor country around. I hope & pray we can do it.

[Bongo Prophet]

21. Please stick around and make the place better. It is not always like this.

Hey, if it was I wouldn't be here so long.
THe heated debates are healthy, but this new insulting and worshipping thing is an infectious virus that is new, and somewhat....suspiciously different.
A belated WELCOME to you, caseycoon! :hi:

[caseycoon]

23. No problem!

I will stay just to spite them!
:rofl:

[Bongo Prophet]

24. That's the spirit!

:thumbsup:

[blm]

34. Anti-corruption, open government Democrats need to grow our numbers to keep

any semblance of democracy in DC. ONLY support open government lawmakers and refuse to rally behind those Dems who side with and protect closed government.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/100307.html

[FREEWILL56]

120. Count me in as a loony liberal too.

I am just as shocked by some here as you and the, if you'll pardon the expression, old timers here. I made an observation that I posted a few months back that the left moved right and the right went over the edge and hence the term wingnuts leaving me in shock and I see I'm not alone. I truly wondered how blind can some really be as to what is going on. I don't need to say I was called quite a few names from some that are obvious in where they are coming from and what it is they are doing. Don't dare ask for true positions on real issues let alone allow for all candidates be able to debate and get equal time to be heard. Somebody else coined this phrase and it seems to be sadly true, "Best damn democracy money can buy" with king george overlooking it all.
This country is in trouble and not just the DU.

[caseycoon]

125. I agree and it's going to

take a hard left turn to even bring us back to center!
Very sad, very scarey. Us "loonies" need to stay here & keep talking! Maybe we can get to some of these rightwing Dems.
Or maybe not, but geez! we have to try! The name-calling might hurt our feelings, but it won't CHANGE our feelings!

[Red Zelda]

22. Read My Lips:

Bill can go to hell with every other Bush and Clinton

[Bongo Prophet]

27. I have no problem with you having that opinion. My main point, though

is that even the people that will support her in the general should have the GUTS to stand up to this stupid move.
And that DUers should not stand for such complicit behavior from ANY candidate.

EVEN hillary supporters.
They are acting like sycophants, not worthy of democracy at all.

We pretty much KNOW that if another candidate said they's take Poppy on tour to heal and declare America "open for business" that they would be OUTRAGED.
That hypocrisy is sickening.

[progressoid]

25. Old news. Bill and GHWB have been pals for a long time.

[Bongo Prophet]

26. You are right about that - but the Hil sends Bill and Poppy on tour is new

And I just think Hil's supporters and detractors alike should let her know we would prefer NOT supporting Bush leagacy in any way.

The "it's okay if she does it" mentality is slavish and short sighted, in my opinion.
For the good of the Dem Party, the American people and citizens of the world - Bushism should be killed and GOP sent to the desert for 40 years.

They can go F (ind) themselves.
Know what I'm sayin'?

[Kucinich4America]

33. Yep. Probably since Mena

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U86QUJwnyCs

[oasis]

41. Kooch should bring up Mena in the next debate instead of UFOs (if he's invited).

:crazy:

[Cha]

37. That "old news" meme gets

old when you're talking about the bfee. We know they're old friends and have been conniving for a long time.

[MadHound]

28. I think that if Hillary gets elected

That we'll have the fact that we're living under the two party/same corporate master system of government rubbed in our faces on a regular basis.

[bvar22]

29. Hillary doesn't need to get "elected" for that to happen.

She just needs to walk away with the Democratic nomination.

If that happens, say "goodbye" to a Progressive chair at the DNC and a 50 state "grassroots driven" Democratic Party. DLC Corporatists will be installed (re-installed?) at every level of the Democratic Party infrastructure, and an authoritarian Top Down "Clinton Machine", Pay to Play Party Leadership will assume complete control.


The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cha]

48. Ye gods...a

blood bath! hillary must not get nomination.

[FREEWILL56]

122. If it gets to that point I may go to a 3rd party after the GE.

If HRC is the nominee I will not vote for her and may just do a write in for my choice for a real Democrat. Dinos should be extinct and I do not feed the dinos.
:hide: Fire away as I know it's coming.

[Cha]

39. One A$$hole party..

two 1984 names.

[blm]

45. It'd be great if the Assholes in GOP and the Asshole wing of the Dem party

would just stay on one side of the country and leave the Open Government Americans to govern ourselves.

[Cha]

49. It'd be phenomenally great..

but won't happen when what they do best is infiltrate..sneaky pieces of shyte.

[glitch]

83. Won't happen until there is nothing left to loot. (unless we prosecute) nt

[Bongo Prophet]

88. You put the "poetic" in poetic justice, glitch! n/t

[bvar22]

30. K&R

NOW is NOT the time for healing!

NOW is the time to drive a fucking STAKE through the cold, greedy, bigoted heart of Compassionate Conservatism.

Republicanism, Corporatism, Compassionate Conservatism, and NeoLiberal Democrats need to be thrown on the trash heap of History's BAD FUCKING IDEAS!
Those people are the enemies of government OF, BY, and FOR the People.

I'll be willing to "reach across the aisle" when the Republican Party purges itself of the greedy fanatics and returns to the values of Eisenhower or (even) Goldwater.

I get nauseous when I hear HillObama talk about "healing" or "working across the aisle", or "bipartisan commissions".

I am a solid Kucinich supporter, but Edwards has the right idea.
You have to FIGHT these bastards, not make nicey, nicey.
THEY aren't going to let go without a fight.



The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[Bongo Prophet]

95. You put it better than I, bvar22. We could put the stake in, and should not pause.

You know how well that works in the vampire movies - hero pauses, and the vampire awakens to shrieking violin sounds!

:scared:

[Cha]

32. "Insane"? "Madness"?

Totally! But, ya know..who knows what lurks in the shadows of fellow Board keyboardists? What's their agenda? What motivates the insanity?

[Bongo Prophet]

78. Indeed, I do not know for sure. Only can discern the patterns and make educated guesses

Hey, if I were an admin and could check referrers and IPs, it would be different.
'twould reveal much, I am guessing.

All I can do in my posistion is share my disgust, and maybe shame SOME sycophants into waking up.
SOME perhaps do not know the extent of the collusion.
Others are just bootlicking hypocrites who would decry it if it were another candidate.

The former we educate.
The latter? Mostly hopeless.

[donkeyotay]

43. Bill, that silver-tongued devil, has lost it - him and poppy out telling the world

We're open for bidness, AGAIN? Wow. That was fingernails on a chalkboard. Which kind of lovely bidness, Bill? Restoring our moral authority - not so much. Doing bidness. Open for bidness?

Yes, this place has gotten very nasty, and a lot of good people are either gone or laying low. That is the plan to neutralize us. Sort of how, in the early days of the "angry white man." When they were first taking over "liberal" tee vee, they'd shout down, talk over, whatever it took to keep the Left from getting a word in edgewise. If you can't beat the argument with ideas, make it too aggravating to listen. Purposeful dissonance.

[mod mom]

46. BFEE is plain evil from the FDR coup until today:

1934: The Plot Against America
DEPARTMENT No Comment
BY Scott Horton
PUBLISHED July 28, 2007
I’m back from the land of heather and thistles, not to mention wee drams and lukewarm ale, but on my way out a friend at the BBC alerted me to this, a not-to-miss program on the BBC this morning, accessible over the next several days by internet. It’s the story of the Plot Against America. I don’t mean the Philip Roth novel, nor even the Sinclair Lewis book, It Can’t Happen Here, but rather the historical events upon which these two works of fiction were based.

In November 1934, federal investigators uncovered an amazing plot involving some two dozen senior businessmen, a good many of them Wall Street financiers, to topple the government of the United States and install a fascist dictatorship. Roth’s novel is developed from several strands of this factual account; he assumed the plot is actually carried out, whereas in fact an alert FDR shut it down but stopped short of retaliatory measures against the plotters. A key element of the plot involved a retired prominent general who was to have raised a private army of 500,000 men from unemployed veterans and who blew the whistle when he learned more of what the plot entailed. The plot was heavily funded and well developed and had strong links with fascist forces abroad. A story in the New York Times and several other newspapers reported on it, and a special Congressional committee was created to conduct an investigation. The records of this committee were scrubbed and sealed away in the National Archives, where they have only recently been made available.

The Congressional committee kept the names of many of the participants under wraps and no criminal action was ever brought against them. But a few names have leaked out. And one is Prescott Bush, the grandfather of the incumbent president. Prescott Bush was of course deep into the business of the Hamburg-America Lines, and had tight relations throughout this period with the new Government that had come to power in Germany a year earlier under Chancellor Aldoph Hitler. It appears that Bush was to have formed a key liaison for the group with the new German government.

Prescott Bush, of course, went on to service as a U.S. Senator from Connecticut, and his son, George H.W. Bush emerged from World War II as a hero.

-snip

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2007/07/hbc-90000651



The Whitehouse Coup
Monday 23 July 2007



The coup was aimed at toppling President Franklin D Roosevelt with the help of half-a-million war veterans. The plotters, who were alleged to involve some of the most famous families in America, (owners of Heinz, Birds Eye, Goodtea, Maxwell Hse & George Bush’s Grandfather, Prescott) believed that their country should adopt the policies of Hitler and Mussolini to beat the great depression.

Mike Thomson investigates why so little is known about this biggest ever peacetime threat to American democracy.




BBC on FDR Assassination Attempt

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/document/document_20070723.shtml

[Truth2Tell]

50. K&R No mercy. n/t

[Occam Bandage]

51. Where did you see DUers approving of the BFEE? Give links.

[MagickMuffin]

54. For starters, several "supporters" mention how GREAT Poppy would be to HRC team

They see NO problem having Poppy being on board. And how great it would be to make nicey nicey with the republicons.

I for one DO NOT want to make nicey nicey with the republicons. The Democratic Party has played that game way to often, only to get stabbed in the back repeatedly. The republicons WILL NEVER be bipartisan. Never have Never will.
I have seem this game played over and over again, with the Democrats looking like wimps. The Dems never stand up to them or for themselves.

The republicons use every thing in their arsenal to beat up the Dems. The military, yep the Dems hate 'em; religion, yep again Dems hate god; family valves, yep the Dems don't have any (just look no further than B.Clinton) so on and so forth.

Below is just one of the "Let's support the BFEE" threads. There are more out there, if I can locate them then I'll post them. But this one should get you started.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3855360

[Occam Bandage]

55. Okay, so the OP says

"Bill Clinton might have just done it again — saying something in the home stretch that will cause Hillary's campaign a whole lot of trouble....do Democratic activists really want to hear that someone named George Bush will be recruited to assist in Hillary's foreign policy?"

The first nineteen posts are all revulsion at the idea.

One person said, "Hey, look, he's just being diplomatic." That is not an endorsement of BFEE, or saying it's great, but rather saying it's nothing either way. Several agreed, most tore him to shreds. From that point, 9/10 posts are anti-Clinton. The only pro-Clinton posts are saying, "It's not that bad," which is a far cry from "How great it would be to make nicey nicey."

Don't worry, your echo chamber is still nice and safe.

[MagickMuffin]

56. So, you just skimmed the thread

Read the whole thread. There are several boasting the relationship of Bill & Poppy

Here's another link about the topic

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3105451

No echo chamber required unless you're a HRC supporter

[Occam Bandage]

57. Actually, I had already posted in (and followed) that thread.

Both threads are 90% negative, 10% neutral.

[Bongo Prophet]

84. If you are going to "quote" me, then QUOTE ME. No need to put words I did not say.

Do you think DU should be supporting the Bush family in ANY WAY?

If Democrats do not want to support the BUSHES, does that mean we want an "echo chamber"?
If I were a Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton supporter, I would WRITE them and communicate how I did not like giving Poppy a platform from which he can (try) to restore some semblance of dignity to the family name.

Her supporters should act like the candidate is ASKING for the job, not an unquestionable sovereign leader.
The posts are not just anti-Clinton, but anti-BUSH.

Maybe you think "it's not that bad" to support Bush.
IF Clinton does it.

Would you HONESTLY feel the same if, say, Barrack decided to do this?
I would be against it, and take it as naivety on his part.

I would BET that Senator Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton's supporters would also be outraged at that.
If HE did it.

Do you see the problem there?

I have made it clear WHY I don't like it, and it is pro-DEM and ANTI-Bush.
What about that don't you agree with?

Now, it turns out that Poppy says no one ever asked HIM about this goodwill tour.
Is he lying?
Was Bill Clinton lying?
Do you think Senator Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton even KNEW about this goodwill tour idea?
I really do not know.

I am honest, pricipled and generally low key.
I don't want an echo chamber.
I just don't think DEMS should HELP Bushes.
Call me a radical for that. ;)

[Occam Bandage]

Calm down, Cap'n Randomcaps. I'm referring to the thread that was linked to me.

[Bongo Prophet]

100. Hey, i LIKE that nickname. thak you for that.

It is quicker than bold type. ;)

Really, to bring it down a notch, if you think it is neutral or cool to take Poppy on tour, that is fine.
I disagree, but instead of Mr. niceguy (my previous incarnation before Cap'n randomcaps) where i would have calmly said "I really disagree with that" -- I sort of went postal. ;)
The primary season has made many quite touchy, and I have seen good people that I have discussed deeply with for years be insulted and mischaracterized by relatively new and heavily rude advocates.

If their candidate does something, it is deemed automatically okay - and to question is to be a "hater" in the way that GOPers use "Bush drangement syndrome" - as a way to destroy any dialog and mutual understanding.
I think this is unhealthy for democracy, and think we should hold even those we like accountable.
For support of POPPY of all people on DU just was, as I said, my tripping point.

I guess it is where I drew a line.

You see, I have a history of supporting rational debate going back 6 years now on DU - and have been on the side of Clinton supporters when they were called names I thought unfair. These very same supporters then used the exact same techniques against their adversaries. That really wears on a person, and feels like betrayal.

In good faith, I have refrained form emphasis in this post.
It may read a bit flat because of it, but you should know that I am normally pretty low key, and quite willing to have a respectful dialog.
That is why this thread is so unusual for me.

Anyway, we can agree on some things and disagree on others.
No worries here about that, Occam Bandage. :hi:

Edit for: damn this laptop and my fingers don't always agree!

[Occam Bandage]

104. Hey, and I completely agree that Clinton's Poppy-love is both

politically suicidal and morally atrocious; you won't find me supporting that decision anywhere.

[Bongo Prophet]

107. We agree on that, OB. And I would like to hear what Joe would say about that.

Especially behind closed doors. He has the BEST sense of humor and would likely come up with a doozy.

[Blue_In_AK]

53. I find Bill's close relationship with the criminal Bushes

to be unseemly in the extreme. It's one of my major problems with anything Clinton.

[PATRICK]

58. It seals only one deal

That these bad decisions will doom the candidacy. Bill has not been effective since they impeached him. Victims never seem to get it. Kerry by comparison looks extremely better but the flaw was similar, never really getting what is happening, never dealing with the mistakes.

Bill has a great potential to damage Hillary throughout her theoretical and increasingly unlikely Presidency. How many times must he reaffirm this even as they hope to build a base upon HIS legacy and personage?

"Stick a fork in Kerry." I think Will Pitt gloomily said once. And Kerry came back because he was not as bad as that. Now we have campaigns going out of their way to self-destruct, almost on principle, as if we were running an adjunct auxiliary primary for the Bush GOP. I defended Kerry then but consistency in error cost us enough to lose it all. The consistency this time is simply overwhelming and it doesn't come from critics of Hillary. Egregious, clear, gratuitous, clearer than pledges on the issues everyone agrees with, we are headed to two likely ruins, the likeliest being a GOP "victory" if the go-along, don't worry about the sacrifice of soul, agenda, principles, votes makes this a mere caricature of 2004, some Clinton era nostalgia and all liberalism muted into horrified bystander status.

Nor does it matter what we do here except as if reflects or has some tiny influence on the voters who still have a dim choice to thwart these insane destinies. When your candidate is lured to this dark reality check them. or they will simply lose, forget about what they would do in office.

[Elidor]

59. Madness? This is business as usual

If I fail to be outraged about it, it's because it's the kind of thing I expect from the Clintons, and I know they're not going to change. And if they knew me, they'd know that she'll never get my primary vote. It's going to be a black day when I have to go out and pull the lever for that colossal fraud.

Anyway, Poppy was asked about it today, and he said hell no, which really means, of course I'll go, after you kiss my ass and do me some favors. It's a long way off. Save some outrage for when it really happens.

I'm sure you've seen this before, too:



The picture that launched a thousand ships? Or turned them back at the shore?

[Bongo Prophet]

91. Madness and business as usual are one and the same. You are right.

As one (inhale) Senator Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton (whew) supporter noted, it is running 90% against the alliance.

Well, in my opinion 10% pro-Poppy is too much on DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND.


This is NOT just anti-clinton.
This is anti-Bush.

If the Clintons want to cozy up, then it must be worth the price to them.
As one of her supporters said, "We don't need your votes anyway"
well alrighty then, if that is their position.

My outrage will be renewed if that happens.
Outrage is a renewable resource, y'know?
I will be watching, as I have since Nixon.

Maybe we can avoid this trainwreck.

[ms liberty]

60. K&R n/t

[markbark]

62. This is MADNESS.

This is MADNESS.
No... THIS...IS... SPARTA!


Sorry, couldn't resist! :evilgrin:

--MAV

[George II]

63. ANOTHER attack on a Democrat - why not attack Poppy instead of Clinton?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

65. Because Clinton is SUPPOSED to be one of ours

although I've never been a fan of his myself.

[George II]

96. Bad excuse...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

97. I've been criticizing Republicans on this site since 2001, which means

that I dislike the Bushes more than Bill and Hillary do.

[Richard Steele]

112. Why? Because you say so?

[progressivebydesign]

68. Because apparently the OP has no republican relatives or friends.

So they can easily attack Senator Clinton's supporters here, because her husband is friends with Poppy Bush.

[Kucinich4America]

75. It's one thing to have friends or relatives who are Republicans.

Unfotrunately, most of us do. :( But it's entirely another matter to have friends who are KNOWN criminals. Any true Democrat, indeed any true American, has no friends in the Bush Crime Family.

[Bongo Prophet]

106. Hi, progressivebydesign. Glad to address your assumption

I do have Republican relatives and clients, who I am friendly with.
Not really any republican friends, so you can attack me for that if you want to.
I find progressive, non-racist and otherwise non-bigoted friends make better friends.
Call me crazy for that if you want.

Now, I realize you want to characterize it as just being friends with a Republican.
That makes it easy to shoot down.
Many senators and other politicians have friends across the aisle.
Senator Kerry has said that Sen. Warner is his friend, for example.

If Bill Clinton or Senator Clinton want to be friends with Hagel, or Lugar, etc etc that would not get a peep from me.
Poppy Bush is a different matter than that, as would be any of the PNACers/Neocons.
Still, it is their business who they are friends with.

If they want to use Republican Neocons who have run illegal activities out of the WH, then I have a problem with it.
If they want to give them a partnership role that helps improve the Bush brand, I have a BIGGER problem with it.
That is because I want to destroy the notion that Democrats are not as good as GOP in foreign policy and security matters.
I think that is good for Democrats to prove that they are better than the xenophobic GOP at that.
Do you disagree?
If you as a supporter don't have a problem with such a cozy relationship, then say so.
We can disagree respectfully.

Would you like it if Obama wanted Poppy to heal the wounds, or Wolfowitz, or other Bush friends?
I think we Democrats can do the healing on our own.
Do you disagree?

I find it quite telling that there is not ONE Senator Clinton supporter to say,"You know, I like Hillary for several reasons, but I disagree with letting Poppy or any other Bush near us. Maybe I will write to say so."
Or one Obama supporter to say, "I liked the idea of reaching across the aisle to get things done, but to reach for Poppy to restore the image of US abroad is a bit too much."
That would give me some indication that they were nuanced in their view, and acting from principle.
If their principles are such that they want to be friends with the like of Iran/contra murders, then that tells a lot as well.

If they can't even see how a loyal democrat could possibly have a problem with it, either on prinicple or strategy?
That tells me more than I need to know.
Is this really that hard to understand?

[Bongo Prophet]

93. I am sorry if I was not clear enough. It IS against Bushes, OR COLLUDING WITH THEM

I asked Senator Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton supporters to express their displeasure to the candidate's campaign - if they felt any displeasure.
Because I believe that to be necessary in representative government.
If the supporters believe supporting Bush is good, then fine, just say so.

If it was Obama, I would ask the same of them.
Or anyone else.
Supporting the Bush Crime family is not a good thing in my opinion.

Do you REALLY see this as JUST an attack on Clinton?
My OP, not the reactions.

[progressivebydesign]

69. FYI - Her name is Senator Hillary Clinton. Not "hillary".

Why is it that she's the only candidate referred to around here by her first name? Oh.. the subtle mysogeny.

[provis99]

70. you forgot your sarcasm smilie

Oh, by the way since misogyny seems to be a concern of yours, please learn to spell it.

[jeff30997]

72. Lol! I'll second that.

[Cha]

80. Oh and it's misogyny not

misogeny. hillary's my senator who's done nothing but enable the bloodthirsty bushits for 5 years and I'll call her what I damn please.

[Bongo Prophet]

114. Maybe the poster meant miso genie?

Clap your hands, rub the bottle and presto!

[Cha]

130. I'd loved some

miso soup, Bongo!

[cloudythescribbler]

86. Politicians go to GREAT LENGTHS to be known by their first name

This can yield some odd results, such as when Mario Cuomo jumped on the case of then VP Quayle for following Sam Donaldson in referring to Cuomo as "Mario". He tried to palm it off as 'anti-Italian'. But my mom had at that time an I Mario poster in the garage AT THAT TIME.

Check out the logos of the candidates. Doesn't Hillary's SAY Hillary? Aren't there Hillary bumper stickers?

Please people, BE REAL. (I have another post here way down at the bottom about being real about the macro issues)

[Bongo Prophet]

108. Hey, you right - where are the "Senator Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton is 44" signs?

:think:

[FREEWILL56]

124. Hmmm, don't see any here. None there either.

Maybe bush got em or has seen them while looking for WMDs. BTW it might be helpful to copy her long name and then you can just right click and paste. I'm sure her supporters would love you rubber stamping her name.:rofl:

[Mythsaje]

115. Not that her campaign refers to her that way or anything.

Must be subtle self-misogyny.

[ima_sinnic]

117. do you really want to know what she is called?

you need to complain to her campaign if you don't like the fact that her "official campaign name" is "Hillary."

but "Hillary" is just what people call her when they are feeling charitable. What she is really called is a lot worse than that.

It's a good idea to choose your battles.

[JTFrog]

121. Do you know anything about her campaign? Or just blindly support her?

Do you realize that everything about her campaign is "Hillary"... BY HER CHOICE apparently.

If you want to throw mysogyny around pick up the phone and call her and her staff and tell them to change every sign, banner and campaign ad they have out there, because they are all "Hillary".

Continuing these types of attacks would be pure ignorance.

[peace13]

79. Ever since Bill put his nose up Pappy's behind

I have turned my back on him and his bride. Sorry but he crossed the line about the time Hillary was standing up making speeches about Saddam and his WMD's. Enough is enough. Peace, Kim

[cloudythescribbler]

85. COME ON you people -- what's all this liberal naivete about the Democratic Party?

I am a left progressive activist -- due to a disability, mainly over the web & telephone -- and have been for some thirty + years. Unlike most of the others active in the reborn sds/mds, students for a democratic society,who started the national anti-Vietnam War movement in the 60s, I do vote in Democratic primaries and usually for the Democrat in the general elections. But the notion that people are so 'shocked, shocked' that Bill Clinton would cozy up to the BFEE (rather an esoteric term for those not hip to the lingo used at DU). Come ON people, the ruling class in this country is based on profits -- much of it the profits of genocide. Whether it's the CHEERS Democrats ("and they're always glad you came") or the BFEE Repubs, or those further to the right, they don't give a hoot about ordinary everyday people. And sometimes they don't even do a good job PRETENDING to care -- like Clinton's transparent lip-biting routine.

These people regard the rights of me, and probably you (unless you're a copperhead or a Kennedy or something) as like those of an ant -- step on one or one hundred, it's no big deal. Hey, torture? Maiming? As long as it's done discreetly, it's about as naughty as getting a naughty blow job (and LYING about it). Clinton remarked when president that Rushdie should not by subject to any PHYSICAL harm (with the specification of 'physical' in the original statement.) Democratic Presidents got us into both Vietnam and Korea. The Clinton Democrats all publicly supported the Iraq War, until they had to at least perform their usual task as a cushion for public discontent.

I participate in the Democratic Party, voting for Kucinich in the primaries in 04 (Kerry already had it sewn up by the time of the MA primary), and now I support Obama as the best of those with a chance of being elected. But I don't harbor illusions about these people -- it is more or less like supporting the ANTI-Brezhnev wing of the Communist Party, in the hopes that someday some glasnost might come along, with the possibility of some REAL change.

I criticized those who supported Nader in 2000 -- as it was a campaign that accomplished next to nothing, while a Gore victory would have been much better (or less noxious) than the W presidency. I know it is hard to keep the reality of power in our society (C Wright Mills wrote about all this very well back in the 50s) and also think pragmatically that, if we are going to have either a Democrat or a Republican, we are better off with the Democrats -- what they REALLY are -- than with what the Repuglican Party has become.

I hope this little rant helps clarify the issues for some people.

[Bongo Prophet]

109. Thank you for your years of service, cloudy

:patriot:

Not all of us are as well versed as you on the history.
Consider it a "teaching moment" ;)

If I had posted in my normal, "unshocked" mode of speech, it would have sunk like an anchor.
Or maybe William Colby :evilgrin:

[me b zola]

87. k&r

[arendt]

94. K&R. I am way late to this gathering, and its bedtime. Sorry I missed it. You said it all. n/t

[Seabiscuit]

98. I don't think I've ever felt as strong about recommending a thread as this one.

K&R!!!

I remember how appalled I was when Clinton spoke to the TV cameras and said: "I did not have sexual relations with that woman". The level of "appalled" just skyrocketed.

[asdjrocky]

99. Thanks for the post, seriously-

Hasn't America had enough of these people?

[balantz]

102. Hell yes!!

Clear distinction to be made between what I hope most of us here identify with as being Democrats, or at least as humane and reasonable people, and this family in power now and their intimate associates. I cannot see a person aiming to be POTUS of our nation continuing a working relationship with these people, much less offering them positions of power and influence.

[Bread and Circus]

103. you see, this is the part in the book when the pigs are all sitting around the table

in human clothes...

animal farm

required reading for any serious progressive or liberal

[malaise]

113. Great post n/t

[ima_sinnic]

118. yes, I was called "small" yesterday for reminding a rabid hillarybot

about Iran/Contra. I was told I knew nothing about "strategy" or "war games" (ironic that a hillbot would fancy "war games"), very derisively, as if I were a peasant who knew nothing.

We were all told that a 41 liaison was a brilliant move because 41 hates cheney for ruining the bush legacy (heh--as if 41 and 43 had such a sterling "legacy" before cheney came along) and would kick cheney butt--as if caring about the dynasty and protecting the fine upstanding bush family name would be the voters' main consideration.

whatever.

thank you for spanking the deluded ones.

[JTFrog]

123. Bill made some of the HRC supporters show their true colors.

GWHB, whose humanitarian efforts were so valiantly defended by the HRC fanclub, then publicly turned Bill down in a most humiliating fashion wherein he disputed the need for any such ambassador/partnership.

That great humanitarian claims that his son has brought nothing but good fortune, freedom and democracy world wide. :puke:

[0007]

129. LOL!! That's the way it indeed goes here. If your not small your

a misogynist or a sexist pig just to name a few of names. I sometimes think that there is a whole herd of posters here just for that purpose.

[AtomicKitten]

131. Junior's crimes will be buried just as his father's were

courtesy of a Clinton if given the opportunity