Does anyone else think Milbank's use of "cackle" for Hillary's laugh is sexist?

[yellowcanine]

"Cackle" implies witch and I doubt that Milbank would call a male candidate's laugh a "cackle", even if it were high pitched, as some men's laughs are.

Edit: Link to Milbank's article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/13/AR2007121301717_2.html?hpid=topnews

[rinsd]

1. I think a DUer called Milbank a male Maureen Dowd yesterday.

Seemed fitting.

[TwilightZone]

2. Prior references to "cackle" generated a lot of discussion on DU.

There certainly wasn't a consensus.

One's opinion of the term often coincides with one's opinion of the candidate it is referencing.

[SharonAnn]

19. Of course it's sexist.

[TwilightZone]

22. Personally, I agree.

I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Many, many DUers disagree, however.

[Taverner]

3. Hard to say

It was, a cackle. But a man, unless he sings alto or soprano, cannot cackle. Again, think about it, kids don't cackle.

Hard to say.

[yellowcanine]

9. Hens cackle, Hollywood witches cackle. Female persons do not cackle.

Some men do laugh in a falsetto. I would still not call it a cackle. If it is a novelist using the term - ok - poetic license. But a political writer should show a little more respect. It is akin to likening Hillary to a witch soley because she is a woman, imo.

[rodeodance]

4. I like her cackle

[bunkerbuster1]

48. So do I. But I don't appreciate the WaPo using that term.

She's got a laugh that I happen to enjoy hearing. To refer to it as a "cackle" is to do the sexist right-wing's job for them.

[terisan]

5. Sure. nt

[Qanisqineq]

6. yes, I guess I do

I've always associated "cackle" with "witch" (witch as in Wicked Witch of the West). Something about it just rubs me the wrong way when people talk about it.

[question everything]

7. More than that

I think that if any of the men were laughing during interviews and debates this would not have generated so much discussion.

But, as was posted on DU, some just dislike her voice. Many have trouble with a woman's voice.

[jenmito]

12. Maybe because she "laughed" mean-spiritedly and purposefully.

She was being snarky with it and I'm glad Obama had that great comeback.

[beaconess]

27. Giuliani laughed all through his MTP interview, and it was remarked upon by the pundits

But not one of them, as far as I can tell, ever referred to it other than a laugh. He certainly wasn't accused of "cackling."

[jenmito]

31. That's right. He laughed inappropriately throughout that interview and all the pundits

pointed it out. They compared it to Hillary's "cackle" in how contrived it seemed. He's a male. It's just a fact that most males don't have a laugh that CAN be characterized as a cackle. That word is reserved for women's laughs. There ARE differences between the genders. :shrug:

[beaconess]

51. "That word is reserved for women's laughs" - men's laughs are just called "laughs"

'nuff said.

Thanks.

[jenmito]

58. That's right. Just as a "growl" is a word reserved for men's angry utterances...

or would that be considered sexist to MEN?

[beaconess]

75. If the only man in the race was described as "growling" every time he said anything, that would

likely be a problem.

[jenmito]

81. "Every time he said anything"? No...every time he angrily uttered something.

If the definition fits, use it. A "cackle" is defined as

Main Entry:
cack·le Listen to the pronunciation of cackle
2 : to laugh especially in a harsh or sharp manner

That's exactly what she did.

[beaconess]

84. That's a subjective matter of opinion

For some reason, just about everytime Hillary laughs, pundits interpret it as a cackle. The appropriate corollary would be if everytime the only male candidate in the race said anything, it was interpreted as a "growl."

I see nothing "harsh or sharp" about Hillary's laugh. It's a laugh. But for some reason, some people interpret it to be something particularly unpleasant and then characterize it by using a term applied only to women.

Sort of like the way tough, no-nonsense men are leaders but tough, no-nonsense women are bitches.

Men laugh. Women cackle.

[jenmito]

89. But it's a very popular opinion...

that Hillary laughed yesterday in a mean-spirited way. And her past laughs were also at inappropriate times, that appeared to follow tough questions. And if it was genuine, why did she stop doing it so quickly? She would still be doing it if it was natural.

It IS particulary calculating and inappropriate and unnatural to me and many other observers. And she happens to be a woman. So?

[beaconess]

101. How do you know it's "a very popular opinion?"

Because some pundits have said so and some of the Clinton detractors on DU agree?

Besides, something "popular opinion" can be quite wrong - and it is still subjective.

[Igel]

95. I have trouble imagining a man 'tittering', as well.

And I think of most "chortling" and "guffawing" as done by men. With men doing more "guffawing" than "chortling".

But I can easily imagine an old man cackling, if his voice is brittle enough (take that to mean a bit of vocal creak and laryngeal-fold tension producing a spectral tilt to the higher frequencies). I think describing a man as "tittering" might have some connotation as to his sexual orientation, so "tittering" is much worse than "cackling".

Then there's to "bellow a laugh", and "howl" and "roar". I can imagine women "howling" with laughter without much of a problem, and in more modern usage even "roaring" (but in older literature it would have a decidedly low-class tinge to it), mostly because I knew a woman that did, indeed, howl and roar when she laughed. Then again, she'd have no trouble singing tenor, and probably even baritone. It was decidedly unladylike, but, then again, she was indifferent to the concept.

Now "cachinnate", *that* I don't have a good feel for at all.

But if HRC cackles--emits a high pitched, abruptive and intermittent laugh that also has a certain kind of spectral tilt and obvious creak--then she cackles. Didn't catch the audio (or video), so I don't know if she cackles. I do know that she sometimes raises the pitch of her voice, and often has some creak and tension in her voice that I find unpleasant. It rather reminds me of my mother's.

[jenmito]

8. No. She's a woman. It's factual that she has a cackle...

a loud, hi-pitched (inappropriate) laugh. She's a female and constantly mentions that (as if she HAS to point it out). She has to take the bad along with the good of her "female" candidacy.

[Rageneau]

17. So, you think ALL women cackle, do you?

I gather that you don't think it's insulting to say that all women cackle -- or, (quoting you), that all women have high-pitched, inappropriate laughs -- but I bet SOME do.

[jenmito]

33. No, I don't...

She laughed at inappropriate times. It was not sincere. It sounded forced and robotic. The last one was mean-spirited towards Obama. I do NOT think all women cackle.

[maddiejoan]

23. No

It's factual that she has a laugh.

"Cackle" is a pejorative description of a laugh.

It goes well with all the other sexist decriptions of Hillary such as:

Shrill, desperate, hard and brittle, contrived, and bitchy

Which, if she were male would be described as:

Forceful, impassioned, steely, in control, and ballsy

In that vain, I'd decribe her laugh as "hardy"

[jenmito]

35. Sorry, but if the definitions fit...

and they do.

[maddiejoan]

38. Then with all due respect.

You're a sexist pig.

[jenmito]

40. No I'm not...

I'm a woman who recognizes a cackle when I hear one. Her "laugh" was not genuine. It was forced, calculated, and in yesterday's debate, mean-spirited.

[maddiejoan]

41. Women can also be sexist pigs.

I'm a woman who recognizes a sexist pig when I see one. Your "post" is either indicitive of an actual sexist outlook or not genuine. It's a deliberate attempt at framing Hillary as a "witch" and it is mean-spirited and sexist.

[jenmito]

44. And I'm not one of them.

I'm saying Hillary's "laugh" WAS witchy (mean-spirited.) Not EVERY woman's laugh, but HER laugh.

[maddiejoan]

45. Then why use words like "witchy"?

[jenmito]

47. How many times do I have to explain it?

You used the word and I agreed with it. It WAS witchy (mean-spirited...synonymous) of her to "laugh" how and when she did.

[maddiejoan]

49. You're hopeless.

I pray to God you are not raising any daughters.

[jenmito]

53. I'm not. Here's a definition of "cackle":

Main Entry:
cack·le Listen to the pronunciation of cackle
Pronunciation:
\ˈka-kəl\
Function:
intransitive verb
Inflected Form(s):
cack·led; cack·ling Listen to the pronunciation of cackling \-k(ə-)liŋ\
Etymology:
Middle English cakelen, of imitative origin
Date:
13th century

1 : to make the sharp broken noise or cry characteristic of a hen especially after laying 2 : to laugh especially in a harsh or sharp manner

[maddiejoan]

55. Please

"cackle" has just as much a sexist component as the word "uppity" has a racist component.

[jenmito]

56. Please. Read the definition again. It describes her perfectly.

Main Entry:
cack·le Listen to the pronunciation of cackle
<snip>2 : to laugh especially in a harsh or sharp manner

That's exactly what she did! EXACTLY!

[maddiejoan]

59. I disagree.

I thought she laughed good-naturedly, and in the same manner that many of the candidates laughed at various points all through out the debate.

Your perception is that she laughed at Obama.

My perception is that she laughed about the question asked.

In any event, no matter the reason she laughed, I wouldn't decribe her laugh as either "harsh" or "sharp"

I'd describe it as a "hardy chuckle"

[jenmito]

60. I disagree...

Not only did she laugh harshly, as if Obama was "busted," she added, "I'D like to hear the answer to THAT." (paraphrase)

[maddiejoan]

61. and if it had been Biden

everyone would be talking about what a funny old gent he is.

[jenmito]

62. Really? If he laughed AT someone and not WITH someone? It's WHY she laughed that's important.

It WAS mean-spirited. Sorry if you don't agree, which you obviously don't. But it was at Obama's expense, which is NOT nice. Obama came back with a confident and clever retort.

[maddiejoan]

63. It's your contention that she laughed at someone

and I maintain it's your contention because it was Hillary.
She laughed "with" the question, not "at" Obama.

If it had been Biden, you'd have a different opinion.

I'll go even further. If positions had been reversed, I am quite sure you'd be railing against how presumptous it was for Hillary to maintain it will be she as President, and Obama the underling.

This is because you are sexist.

[jenmito]

64. You're wrong...

Because when the woman asked the question, Hillary added, "I'D like to hear the answer to that, too!" The woman was asking tough questions to each candidate. It wasn't funny. I don't know why you keep bringing up Biden. I don't care either way about him, but I DO think he's sincere, unlike Hillary (and Edwards, for that matter).

Keep thinking I'm sexist. I'm not. I'm against HILLARY'S inappropriate laugh. I couldn't care less what you think of me.

[maddiejoan]

66. Then you ought to sleep well tonight

despite the fact that I think you have a self-loathing attitude about women.

Congrats!

[jenmito]

70. Self-loathing because I considered Hillary's laughter inappropriate and mean-spirited?

I'll sleep just fine, thanks. I love ALL people who are genuine. I don't respect ANY people who are not.

[maddiejoan]

73. and yet you support Obama?

The least genuine of all the candidates on the Democratic stage?

okie doke

[jenmito]

74. Damn right I do...

He's the MOST genuine. You must be racist for thinking he's the least genuine. Hillary even SAID a president shouldn't say what they really think. I'm tired of the Repub. mindset of secrecy.

[TwilightZone]

87. "you must be racist"

:rofl:

Yes, the only basis anyone could ever have for believing that someone is not genuine is the person's race.

Unbelievable....

[jenmito]

91. "You're a sexist pig"

That was written to me above because I stated I didn't like ONE woman's laugh which I found mean-spirited, calculated, and unpleasant.

[CTLawGuy]

96. "Not Genuine" ?

are you saying he is not really black?

what a racist thing to say! tsk tsk.

[maddiejoan]

98. Huh?

Unless you think that's all Obama has to offer --I don't see where you got that.

[CTLawGuy]

99. no I don't think that's all he has to offer

but we all know why people consider him "ungenuine".

[maddiejoan]

100. Obviously not

because I consider him to be a phony based on several factors

including his stance on the IRG even though he claims he's against Kyl/Lieberman

[DemBones DemBones]

52. You are correct. I'm not supporting Hillary but I know sexism when I see it.

As a journalist, Milbank is a loser, always has been.

[TwilightZone]

26. That's a rather silly assertion.

All women laugh inappropriately? All women cackle?

Rather broad brush you have there.

[jenmito]

36. Thank you.

:hi:

[twiceshy]

10. I dont' know - lets just call it what it is......

My wife has a couple different laughs ranging from a titter to infectious teasing kind of laugh. But nothing like I witnessed on the YouTube clip. Yep, that's definitely a cackle - no other way to describe it except maybe hysteric/sarcastic/gloating laughter. Hardly attractive.

[jenmito]

14. Exactly. n/t

[yellowcanine]

25. I would point out that apologists for racist/sexist/anti gay language use the same reasoning.

"They are homosexuals, so why can't I call them that?" etc.

And I doubt that your wife would be very pleased with you if you did call her laugh a "cackle", even if it was one in your opinion. And maybe it never would be one in your opinion precisely because she is your wife. That is my point. Using a term reserved for animals and applying it to humans is always problematic in polite company.

[beaconess]

88. Well said.

[beaconess]

29. And what are the various categories in the range of male laughter?

And how many of them have been used repeatedly to describe the laugh of any of the male candidates?

[Deb]

11. Yes, a hen "cackles" and a rooster "crows"

I call a foul on Dana. :-)

[elfin]

13. Yes - I believe he called Rudy's

outbursts on Meet the Press "nervous laughs."

If it wasn't him, it was another commentator and I noticed the difference.

[David Zephyr]

15. It is very sexist and it colors his opinions in my mind. It's pathetic. "Worst Person in the World"

It's not just women who understand these codes for sexist thoughts, there's a lot of us men who also see it for the shit is is. Men who love women, their moms, their sisters, their daughters, their grandmothers, their granddaughters, their aunts, their great aunts and all the women who have graced our lives, taught us to be better humans and whose examples made us real men.

Dana Milbank, a regular on Keith Olbermann, should be "the worst person in the world". He is.

[balantz]

16. Here's one dictionary definition:

2. cackle - squawk shrilly and loudly, characteristic of hens

[MissDeeds]

18. I don't think so

I've heard Russell Crowe's laugh called a giggle - Is that sexist?

[beaconess]

30. Is Russell Crowe a major presidential candidate?

Have any of the male candidates' laughs been characterized in such a way?

[MissDeeds]

42. But sexism is the issue

I don't know if any of the male candidates' laughs have been criticized, but John Edwards has been called the Breck Girl. Much was made in the last election about whether Kerry had botox.

:shrug:

[maddiejoan]

57. Notice

that both "Breck Girl" and discussion about "Botox" are attempts to "feminize" the subject of derision.

[Warpy]

20. It's certainly deeply biased

and I'm sure that particular news whore would have written "chuckle" or "chortle" for a GOP candidate.

I find it sickening.

[demigoddess]

21. of course, it is sexist. That is the whole point when they say it. They are pointing out

for anyone who has not noticed that she is a woman and a woman who is not a 'proper little woman'. Enough said to the sexist listeners.

[beaconess]

24. It sure rubbed me the wrong way

I was shocked when he said that.

She laughed. It was a laugh. But for some reason, her laugh is often referred to as a "cackle."

Even Bush, who has the most bizarre laugh in public life is simply referred to as "laughing" whenever he lets loose with one.

I don't know if it was sexist - it very well could be - but it certainly was a nasty and gratuitous slap at Sen. Clinton.

[yellowcanine]

76. Good point on Bush's laugh. If journalists treated his laugh the same way, they would say

"he laughed sophomoricly." "Cackle" is an editorial judgement on a woman's laugh to make it seem witchy, imo.

[suston96]

28. Fer cryin out loud....

Hillary's cackle is world famous and has been around for ever...

I'll try to find something Bill Clinton said about it.

I'll bet this place will go wild when they find out that Hillary hangs the toilet paper rolls in the wrong direction!!!

[Dervill Crow]

32. So what's wrong with a cackle?

Most people have several different types of laughter depending upon what elicits the laughter. Now, if she had snorted that might be newsworthy.

When I saw a joke is cackle-worthy, that is high praise.

Give me a cackle any day over that stupid heh heh heh stupid laugh of the idiot-in-chief.

[Dervill Crow]

34. Just for the record, not all witches are female . . . not that it's relevant! n/t

[yellowcanine]

79. But the Hollywood type witches who "cackle" are female. That is the point.

Regardless, if you read the "cackle" references in context, it is clear the writers are not being complimentary of Ms. Clinton's laugh, so whether or not a "cackle" can have a positive connotation is not relevant. The fact that some African Americans refer to each other affectionately using the "n" word does not make it ok for a white guy to use the term.

[Dervill Crow]

94. Definitely, but it's not necessarily sexist. It's just something to criticize.

If it wasn't the cackle it would be something else.

Clinton and her cackle. Edwards and his haircuts. Kucinich and his UFOs. Obama and Oprah--too black or not black enough?

Always something to detract away from anything of substance.

[Catherine Vincent]

37. Yes, it's sexist. nt

[emilyg]

39. yes.

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

43. It's hilarious how Hillary gets the menfolk all riled up with her "unladylike" laugh n/t

[Scriptor Ignotus]

46. I think a man could be said to "cackle"

so it's not overtly sexist, but the word definitely has a feminine connotation to it.

[nachoproblem]

65. Giuliani cackles

and if the media would call him on it, we might not have to have this discussion.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

67. Hmmm

In today's parlance, a man can be a "bitch" but the etymology of the word screams female...That's why calling a man a "bitch" is tantamount to fighting words...

[yellowcanine]

80. Exactly - the fact that the word is/can be used to refer to a man does not make it non-sexist.

Anymore than applying "faggot" to a straight guy who has some gay characteristics makes it somehow not gay-phobic/bashing.

[Sparkly]

50. Yes. nt

[readmoreoften]

54. Yes. /nt

[joeybee12]

68. Dana apparently subscribes to Chris Matthews and Karl rove's

view of women in power--shrill and cacklers...it is sexist because it's derogatory used only for females. You wouldn't call a man a bitch either.

[Nailzberg]

69. To avoid sexism, they should call it "disingenuous laughter."

[Egnever]

71. What should it be called?

Just askin

[yellowcanine]

82. "laughed out loud" would work. Or just "laughed". No need to put an editorial judgement on it.

The audience can decide for themselves whether or not it was inappropriate.

[applegrove]

72. I hate that word. But at some point her own friends used that word when

describing Hillary's sense of humour.

[yellowcanine]

83. Not relevant. Societal norms are different for friends and strangers.

[applegrove]

90. That is true. I was dissapointed to see some on the DU mention her

laugh during the debate. Her laugh is lovely.

[LanternWaste]

77. It's sexism with built-in plausible deniability.

It's sexism with built-in plausible deniability and a ready-made group of "progressive" defenders.

That we'd even stoop to something as petty and as puerile as a laugh says something about the state of us (not the OP-- her "laugh" has been getting a lot of stories over the past week for some reason).

That we take out eyes off of the actual policies of the candidates, and spend so much time with the spurious he-said she-said bullshit speaks volumes about those who actually take these chickenshit stories seriously.

A bunch of half-educated, sub-literate, armchair politicians posting on a message board because the actual responsibility of campaigning for a candidate is too much work, so we reduce ourselves to caricatures using cartoonish talking points that would give pleasure to any lurking freeper.

Again-- not directed at the OP, but to anyone who hangs their hats on these chickenshit stories and then uses them to base their votes on.

People-- debate over the health care issues. Debate over the conflict in the ME. Debate over out-sourcing, environmentalism, gay rights, women's right! But if you debate about this crap... well, for all intents and purposes, you've done nothing more than identify yourself as a chicken-shit, a dumb-ass, and a hack.

[TwilightZone]

92. Excellent post.

There are plenty of real issues out there to discuss without resorting to criticizing a candidate's laugh or haircut or whatever other superficial traits we tend to obsess over.

[truebrit71]

78. No. Next stupid flamebait question?

:eyes:

[THUNDER HANDS]

85. sexist is subjective

i don't think it's sexist, but then again, someone else might.

I do think Hillary has, at times, an annoying laugh.

[Greenwood]

86. No. Not at all*

.

[Little Star]

93. No doubt about it! n/t

[Vinca]

97. Describing Hillary's laugh as a "cackle" is very sexist.

It implies she's an old hen. Why wasn't Rudy's inappropriate laughter on Russert described as "maniacal?" I've heard it described as "good natured" by the talking heads when, in fact, he sounded nuts.