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The last time Joe Biden ran for President, I really didn't like him.

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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 07:52 PM
Original message
The last time Joe Biden ran for President, I really didn't like him.
This time, I have to say, as a pragmatic choice, I kinda like him.

No, I'm not a Bidenite. No, he gets little emotional investment from me. But overall, he's not bad at all. I DO like his speeches when he gets all wound up. He can give a barn burner. The down side ...... he often seems to get too accommodating to the other side.

Philosophically, its me and Dennis. Realistically ..... I don't know. Biden's growing on me.
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. Man, he is OWNED by MBNA and Citi.
I kinda like the guy myself, but he was 100% behind the bankruptcy/credit bill.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. To be honest, Tom, that's the big stumbling block between me supporting him or not.
That was huge. That said, that's his constituency. But its big enough in my mind that it keeps me from supporting him.
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Think82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
22. 1 vote in 35 years of accomplishment is going to derail you? I hope not.
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Please read his floor statement, and see why he did it;
Edited on Tue Dec-11-07 08:02 PM by 1corona4u
March 10, 2005
Statement

Floor Statement: Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005

Mr. BIDEN. Mr. President, several years ago, when we were considering this legislation, I spoke here on the Senate floor about some important provisions that I think have been overlooked in our discussions. In my remarks today I will repeat what I said back then, in March of 2001.

We have heard a lot in recent days about how this bill lacks compassion--specifically, that it will hurt women and children who depend on alimony and child support.

Critics claim that by making sure that more money is paid back to other creditors, this bill will make it harder for women and children to get what is coming to them.

I am particularly proud of my record of protecting women and children during my career in the Senate. That record includes the Violence Against Women Act to protect women threatened by domestic violence.

I am here again today to show that, contrary to a lot of the rhetoric that has been tossed around, this bill actually improves the situation of women and children who depend on child support. It specifically targets the problems they face under the current bankruptcy system into a virtual extension of the current national family support collection system.

There may be other aspects of this legislation that we can debate: the balance between creditors and debtors, between different kinds of creditors, or between different kinds of debtors. But on the question of child support and alimony, there should be no dispute.

Because this bill strengthens the collection of alimony. Period.

Over the many years we have discussed this bill, it has earned the support of the National Child Support Enforcement Association, which represents over 60,000 child support professionals.

It has earned the support of the National Association of Attorneys General, which has sent a letter of support personally signed by twenty-seven State attorneys general.

Over the years, the child support protections in this legislation were endorsed by the Attorney General of the State of Vermont.

The Attorney General of Minnesota endorsed them, too, along with the Attorneys General from Illinois, from Massachusetts, and from California, Montana, North Carolina, Michigan, Maryland, Iowa, Hawaii, and Washington.

The child support and alimony protections in S. 256 are so far superior to current law that the National District Attorneys Association, representing more than 7,000 local prosecutors, have endorsed them.

In addition to those national associations, those protections have earned the support of: the California Family Support Council, whose 2,500 enforcement professionals are responsible for carrying out the Federal child support program in California;

The Western Interstate Child Support Enforcement Council, composed of child support professionals from the private and public sectors west of the Mississippi River;

The California District Attorneys Association, consisting of elected district attorneys from each of every one of California's 58 counties and over 2,500 deputy district attorneys; and finally,

The Corporation Counsel of the City of New York. Yes, even New York City loves this bill.

Why has this legislation earned such overwhelming support from the professionals out in the field and in the trenches who, ever single day, seek and enforce child support orders?

One reason is the hard work of Phillip Strauss, who, speaking for the National Child Support and Enforcement Association, has represented the concerns of child support professionals in testimony before our committee over the years we have debated bankruptcy reform. From his personal experience with the problems women and children face under current bankruptcy law, he brought together his fellow enforcement officials to draft the provisions I am here to discuss.

As Mr. Strauss and his colleagues have told us, right now the treatment of child support and alimony in bankruptcy is a mess, and this bill fixes it.

When a deadbeat dad files for bankruptcy under the current system, what happens to mom and the kids?

Well, if the dad is actually making the payments, those payments stop. That's right, the payments stop cold. Mom then has to find a lawyer or a government advocate, take time off of work, and go to bankruptcy court to try to get those payments started again. And when she goes to court, her claim may not be heard that day, so she'll have to return again and again... or if she's late, she'll miss her day in court.

What else happens under current law? When dad's bill collectors show up in bankruptcy court, mom has to fight with them over dad's assets. There's a good chance that mom not only needs her payments started again, but she is due past support--support payments dad never made last month, last year. She needs him to pay her back for all the payments he failed to make.

And in asserting her claim, she is not the “Number 1" collector in line. Under current law, she is Number 7. That's right – Not So Lucky Number 7. The current Code permits other bill collectors to beat her in the race to get at dad's assets. The current law handicaps her at the starting line. She is forced to wage a fight to make sure she and the kids receive their due.

And what happens after she fights it out with the bill collectors? Well, under the current system, she might be lucky and get every dollar due. But, she may only get a portion of what is due or she may not get one red cent.

That's not right. If a bankrupt household is a sinking ship, then women and children should be protected first. This is what the current law fails to do, but it is what this bill does: it puts women and children first.

S. 256 dictates that even if he files for bankruptcy, dad must continue making those support payments that mom needs to feed and clothe her children. Under this bill, women and children will continue to receive their support payments during bankruptcy, while everybody else, from the credit card bank to the department store, waits for the bankruptcy judge's final order and plan.

That alone would be a major improvement over current law. But that is just the beginning of the advances of this bill over current law.

This bill makes mom “Number 1" and places her ahead of all the bill collectors on her past-due claim. No other bill collector--not the credit card company, not the car loan company, not the student lenders--can jump ahead of a mother and her children. Every other bill collector must stand in line behind the family.

What is so great about the continuation of payments and making mom “Number 1"? As a practical matter, she doesn't have to find room in her hectic schedule to make appearances in a federal bankruptcy court--an intimidating place for most people. She can go to work without interrupting her day. She can complete her errands and pick up her kids after school. Under the bill, she will be automatically first in line on her claims and she will continue to receive her payments during bankruptcy.

When we pass this bill, she does not have to work her way through the bankruptcy system. The system will work for her, not against her.

That's the beauty of this bill: It is self-executing. The provisions to be added to the Bankruptcy Code will function automatically. This is vital. Unrepresented women will not be harmed by the process, as they are under the current Code.

Today, under current law, these women have to get an attorney and go to court to assert their claims.

In addition, under this bill, family support will never be dischargeable. It must be paid in full. All of it.

This is important because, under the current, domestic debts may not be paid in full or at all, believe it or not. Right now, a deadbeat father can file for bankruptcy and come out without paying one penny of support. While his slate is wiped clean, a mother and her children go without. When this bill passes and the President signs it, the law will hold the deadbeat dad's feet to the fire: he will pay, he will pay in full.

There are other important ways that this bill will remove real obstacles to justice that exist in current bankruptcy law.

This bill not only lifts the stay on support payments during bankruptcy, but it adds that, when a wife-beater files for bankruptcy, a domestic violence restraining order against him must remain in effect. It cannot be stayed. And the woman who needs a restraining order against him can still get one.

I have here an order from a family court in my home state of Delaware. A woman went to the court and requested a restraining order against her abuser, who had already filed for bankruptcy. Incredibly, the judge found, under the current Bankruptcy Code, that a proceeding for a domestic abuse restraining order is automatically stayed “by operation of law.”

That's right. We have judges out there right now who look at today's Bankruptcy Code, and they find that filing for bankruptcy stops all proceedings. They find that we have failed to write an exception for proceedings like those for domestic violence. They find their hands are tied.

Then they send a woman in fear for her life off to a federal bankruptcy court to lift the Code's automatic stay by filing a special motion. Unbelievable.

If you think this is fair, if you prefer this state of affairs, then I guess you will vote against this bill. Personally, I am proud of this bill, and I wish that those who are fabricating wild claims about it would stop. If they have their way, the women and children in this country who depend on alimony and child support will be robbed of real protections.

That would be a crime.

Under current law, more than just child support and--alimony are stopped in their tracks by the filing of bankruptcy. That automatic stay, as it is called, stops a lot of other proceedings that could provide real help to women and children.

This legislation changes that. It lifts the stay on a number of methods that family support officials use to go after deadbeat dads, who today can hide behind the bankruptcy system. Unlike current law, this bill would permit reporting the deadbeat's overdue support payments to a consumer reporting agency. Under current law, it would permit restrictions on a deadbeat dad's driving, professional, or recreational licenses. It would permit family support collection officials to intercept his tax refunds.

The legislation also clarifies the definition of support payments, ending conflicting bankruptcy decisions by different courts that today question what support payments actually are.

Most significantly, though, this bill prevents a father from completing bankruptcy unless he has paid all his support obligations due after he filed for bankruptcy.

Let's think about this. Under current law, a father filed for bankruptcy and can complete bankruptcy under a plan that relieves him of his past-due domestic obligations. Under the bill, however, this scenario will become obsolete. A father will never complete bankruptcy until he is paid up. He must pay.

Moreover, the bill protects mom during a bankruptcy plan. Once a father is under a bankruptcy plan and he fails to make his support payments, a mother can march to the bankruptcy court and ask the court to dismiss his plan. The court will call dad back in to explain himself. He doesn't want to make payments during his bankruptcy plan? Fine, he can be thrown out of bankruptcy, and find himself back at square one.

Some claim that this bill lacks compassion. Well, right now, women who want child support orders or who already have orders but fail to enforce them slip through the cracks. If we pass this bill, the Bankruptcy Code will empower women with the information they need.

Section 219 of the bill requires the U.S. Bankruptcy Trustee to notify a woman of her rights to use the services of her state child support enforcement agency and gives her the agency's address and phone number. Better yet, the Trustee likewise notifies the agency independently of the woman's claim. This is striking.

Women who need help will get the information they need, because the bankruptcy system is charged with reaching out to family support professionals--acting under federal family support collection law--and putting them at the service of the women and children who need them.

This last item needs stressing, Mr. President, because so much has been made about what will happen after someone who owes family support payments comes out of bankruptcy. The claim is that other “more powerful” creditors will push women and children aside and strip the dad bare before he can make payments to his family.

That makes for a moving story, Mr. President, but it is fiction, not fact.

This legislation requires the bankruptcy Trustee to notify both the woman and the family support collection professionals about the dad's release from bankruptcy, his last known address, the name and address of his employer, and a list naming all the bill collectors who will still be collecting from dad.

This section helps mothers both during and after bankruptcy.

The new notification process will help a mother and the support enforcement agencies keep track of a father, where he is working, and what other bills he is required to pay.

Because of this monitoring, which would be put in place by the bankruptcy system under this bill, mothers and collection agencies can more easily go to court and get that portion of a father's wages that now really belongs to them. Dad may complete his bankruptcy plan, but his obligations do not stop.

These new protections guarantee that family support claims of women and children,will always receive “Number 1" priority – during and after bankruptcy. The process for obtaining a portion of a father's wages – through a wage attachment – gives priority to domestic support orders over orders held by bill collectors, including credit card companies.

That money is taken out of his paycheck before he even sees it. He can't be forced by “powerful creditors” to choose between them and his alimony or child support. Those payments are automatic. Again, the picture of greedy bill collectors rushing to the front of the line makes for dramatic storytelling. But it is only that--storytelling.

The legislation builds on the existing Federal Child Support Enforcement Program, that exists to help women of all walks of life receive their support payments. By tying Federal dollars to federal standards, current law requires state and local support enforcement agencies to enforce national standards.

A couple of the requirements under Federal family support law are: first, that immediate wage withholding should be included in all child support orders; and second, that the withholding of child support obligations be given top priority over every other legal process under State law against the same wages.

Therefore, after bankruptcy, when a mother and the bill collectors walk into court to make claims against the father's wages, the mother is again ``Number 1'' in priority and those bill collectors fall in line behind her.

In response to some of my colleagues concerns--concerns that I would certainly share if I listened to some of the claims out there --I looked for ways to make the system even tighter.

I found out that the only way to do that was to require a wage attachment, whether the woman wanted one or not. Maybe she wants nothing to do with an abusive husband. Maybe she is afraid for him to know her address. We have to leave that decision up to her, but she will get all the help we can give to help her know her rights.

As I said, I looked for ways to make this bill stronger in support of women and children who depend on support payments, and I simply couldn't find any.

Even if a father does not earn wages, then support enforcement agencies have many tools to use to ensure that the mother and her children are paid. A support enforcement agency can intercept taxes and unemployment benefits, revoke driver's, professional and recreational licenses (like those used for fishing, hunting, and boating), deny passports, and institute criminal and contempt actions.

That is why, even compared to any imaginary “powerful creditor” you might be able to conjure up, mothers and children have real, tangible protections and resources at their disposal to bring a first priority claim against a father's wages after bankruptcy.

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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. (cont.)
Edited on Tue Dec-11-07 08:07 PM by 1corona4u
Well, apparently, I can not post the whole thing...But, here is my POV;

As I have posted many, many, times on this board, Joe voted for the BK bill, for women and children. Under the old BK laws, divorced women with children were the last ones to be paid, if the deadbeat dad filed a BK. Now, they are the first ones to be paid. If you ever question why Joe votes for anything, go look at the floor statements on his website. They will clearly give you an idea of where his interest were. Not in some bank, as has been previously speculated on. There's just no denying that Joe has stood up for women's rights, in a big way. As in the violence against women act, and now, the International violence against women act. But, no "bill" will ever work for all people. There are a lot of people who respect the revisions of the 2005 BK bill. I am one of them.

My best friend is about to reap the rewards of this bill. Her X has just filed a BK, after leaving her without ANY child support, for 2 children, 8 & 6, for 4 years, and just on Thursday of last week, thought that he could get out of paying her by filing a BK. Well, it's people like him that will not be able to get away with it now. He claimed to have lost his 135K yr. job, and had protested ANY request for documentation for his current financial status. Her attorney called for deposition, forcing discovery. Then came back and filed a BK. I know for a fact that he hid money, and that he is also still working, under the table. Under the new law, he will be fully investigated by the courts.

A Senator sometimes has to vote for a bad bill, if there is something in it they truly want. I believe that was Joe's dilemma on the BK bill. But you can look for yourself, and see his financial contributions from banks from 1998, and it's not very impressive.

JOSEPH R. BIDEN JR.: CAREER PROFILE (SINCE 1989)

Top Industries
The top industries supporting Joseph R. Biden Jr. are:
1 Lawyers/Law Firms $6,265,871
2 Real Estate $1,172,230
3 Retired $853,148
4 Securities & Investment $839,775
5 Misc Finance $499,470
6 Misc Business $462,641
7 Business Services $455,925
8 Health Professionals $382,275
9 TV/Movies/Music $364,666
10 Lobbyists $333,185
11 Finance/Credit Companies $294,650
12 Misc Manufacturing & Distributing $294,249
13 Pro-Israel $272,700
14 Commercial Banks $269,050
15 Education $249,725
16 Insurance $223,975
17 Retail Sales $186,400
18 General Contractors $175,550
19 Accountants $136,935
20 Democratic/Liberal $129,490

So, that's about a $563,000 bucks in 18 years. Or $31,000 a year in contributions. I doubt he did it for the banks, at all.



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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Fine. Now I believe I will review Colin Powell's address to the UN.
That floor statement was fine, unto itself, but it was fluff to cover his ass for all of the mutual support between Biden and the Credit Companies.
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Whatever...
why even bother to post in a thread if you don't care to know the FACTS?!?

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Rageneau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. Ah, so he voted for the Bankrupty Bill beause of the CHID-REN. Yeah, that makes it okay.
I read this floor speech and it seems to be nothing more than an excuse wrapped up in a cliche'.

Biden's speech makes it appear as if the whole reason for the bill and his support of it had to do with collecting back child support. But that's bogus. The Bill wasn't about child support, it was just another means for robber barrons to squeeze blood from turnips. Most of those turnips do not owe child support. Why did Joe vote against them?
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nyc 4 Biden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Considering . . .
Edited on Tue Dec-11-07 08:06 PM by nyc 4 Biden
He is the second poorest Senator and has no stocks and is the only non-millionaire (not even close) candidate, I would say MBNA and Citi don't pay very well. Just sayin'. Personally I follow his record and I trust his morals even if some, very few, votes I don't fully understand, basically I trust him. But again, that's just me, an admitted Bidenite.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Yes he supported the bankruptcy bill. But as to him being OWNED by MBNA
Edited on Tue Dec-11-07 08:06 PM by gateley
and Citi -- if that's the case, why haven't they been filling his coffers?

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>

EDIT to add link to source: http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/select.asp?Ind=F03
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Because they bankrolled him for years.
There is absolutely no way that the Biden camp would take money from them in a Pres campaign.
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Please read this, and understand it. This is FROM 1989, to date.
JOSEPH R. BIDEN JR.: CAREER PROFILE (SINCE 1989)

Top Industries
The top industries supporting Joseph R. Biden Jr. are:
1 Lawyers/Law Firms $6,265,871
2 Real Estate $1,172,230
3 Retired $853,148
4 Securities & Investment $839,775
5 Misc Finance $499,470
6 Misc Business $462,641
7 Business Services $455,925
8 Health Professionals $382,275
9 TV/Movies/Music $364,666
10 Lobbyists $333,185
11 Finance/Credit Companies $294,650
12 Misc Manufacturing & Distributing $294,249
13 Pro-Israel $272,700
14 Commercial Banks $269,050
15 Education $249,725
16 Insurance $223,975
17 Retail Sales $186,400
18 General Contractors $175,550
19 Accountants $136,935
20 Democratic/Liberal $129,490

So, that's about a $563,000 bucks in 18 years. Or $31,000 a year in contributions. I doubt he did it for the banks, at all.

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NI4NI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. why do you insist on posting facts?
as always, well done!:yourock:
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. I don't know....it's just this thing I have...
telling the truth....it's what Joe does best too. :-)
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nyc 4 Biden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:14 PM
Original message
You're in the wrong place. . .
Edited on Tue Dec-11-07 08:20 PM by nyc 4 Biden
"9. Because they bankrolled him for years. There is absolutely no way that the Biden camp would take money from them in a Pres campaign. "

Shouldn't this be in a conspiracy theory thread?

Bankrolled? Please provide links.
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. No one owns Biden.
Bankruptcy laws needed changing, there's no question about that. Naturally, any Republican bill will have problems, but this really is a non-issue since the Democrats are now in control of both Houses. A President Biden would be more than happy to sign an updated bankruptcy bill into law. Problem solved. People are just trying to make an issue out of nothing. It's nothing because the solution is in our hands. If this piece of legislation would stand in the way of someone supporting Joe Biden, then they really don't have a candidate in this race because none of the candidates are even talking about this, much less actively trying to get it changed. As far as I know there is no candidate currently pushing legislation for bankruptcy reform.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. I've liked Joe for years
the 'Senate speak' kills him but he seems to have been working on that.

I don't have trouble with folks who will compromise with the other side, that's one of the strengths of a Democracy. nobody hits a home run but with compromise we all get something we can live with
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PatSeg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. The "senate speak" didn't work well for Kerry
He was most appealing when he spoke conversationally, but I guess its hard to break a years-old habit. Biden comes across as more down-to-earth.
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faithfulcitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. Actually, I was just thinking his "senate speak" was not bad at all
considering he's been there since he was 29. To me, he sounds like an "average Joe" at times, which I like. (and SO unlike Kerry). Maybe it's just me.
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
11. He'd be a good VP /attack dog nt
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I'm so sick of hearing that I could just puke.
He will NEVER be anyone's VP, or SOS, because he doesn't need TO. He has more power where he is.
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
15. I would just add that Biden's history for liberal causes is strong
and what appears as "accommodating" has only been on a few specific instances which, as president, can now pay off tenfold because 1)as president with a Democratic Congress the need for compromise will be quite small, 2)he's worked with Republicans just enough to get some of them to come along when it's necessary, and that's invaluable, and finally, 3)he's the one candidate who can successfully move the Democratic agenda forward--and he knows how to do that--without alienating half the country. He can be a president for all Americans. I think Joe Biden can do for the Democrats what Reagan did for the Republicans only, unlike Reagan, Biden will be good for America.
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faithfulcitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. well said!
:applause:
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faithfulcitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
17. too funny...kinda sound like me a month ago.
Once I accepted who was in this thing...although, I'm a bit more enthusiastic. I think he's a great guy. welcome! :toast:
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