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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 05:59 PM
Original message
Obama's constitutional philosophy (or lack thereof)
Edited on Mon Dec-10-07 06:03 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
It is often noted that Barack Obama is an expert on constitutional law. That is better than the alternative, but it doesn't follow from that credential that he has a sound (or even benign) philosophical understanding of the constitution. Obama's credentials as a constitutional lawyer pale compared to those of Justice Antonin Scalia, for instance, and Scalia's philosophical conception of the constitution is pernicious.

Some constitutional thinkers believe the constitution really means something. Others view it primarily as a framework for argument in support of pre-existing positions and philosophies. The somewhat nihilistic second view is quite common, probably because all non-constitutional law is about making the law say what you want it to say; advocacy for a given position (the client's position) through selective omission and emphasis. So many constitutional lawyers, being lawyers, make the mistake of thinking the constitution is mere law... a field of play. A "serving suggestion." (Read the Bush briefs in Bush v. Gore for some prime nihilistic Constitutional argument.) And since politics is the "art of the possible" most politicians subscribe to that same practical view of the constitution as a basis for argumentation, rather than a coherant collection of absolute limitations.

For instance, the First Amendment says that Congress shall make no law infringing the freedom of the (printing) press. This is the single most unambiguous and easily understood phrase in the Bill of Rights. Unfortunately, if a person sees a work as sufficiently offensive or menacing, he or she often favors its suppression, and will tolerate the arbitrary legislative and/or judicial revision of the plain meaning of the constitution to accomplish that end. So he or she carves out exceptions. Leaving aside the social desirability of any particular exception, the point that must be understood is that if a right has exceptions then the government is free to redefine the right in any way it wishes. (The courts are, of course, part of the government, and have done remarkable violence to the Constitution over the years. Why don't we declare wars any more? Why was it okay to intern Americans of Japanese descent? Why is Bush President? Etc.)

This nihilist/political view reduces down to, "the constitution does not limit the government if people generally think extra-constitutional measures are desirable." And that reduces down to, "the Constitution has no power or meaning." If the Constitution must yield to majoritarian notions of "common sense" then it is not supreme, and a constitution that is not supreme is not a constitution. It's an oxymoron!

The correct approach to the Constitution is to accept its few limitations as absolute, and to then optimize social well-being within those limitations. For instance, we have to figure out how to thwart terrorists WITHIN the Constitution... it poses challenges, just as making police tell arestees they have a right to a lawyer created challenges. Our responsibility is to accept those challenges, or amend the Constitution. There is no third option.


In light of that, I was struck by a quote wherein that Senator Obama managed to get a simple Constitutional question wrong in BOTH ways--he is wrong on what the Constitution says, and (much worse) then compounds the error by offering a philosophical view of the constitution that renders the Constitution a meaningless piece of paper:

"When a student asks Obama for his views on the Second Amendment, he reminds his audience that he taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago and is thus familiar with the arguments regarding the right to bear arms. He acknowledges "a tradition of gun ownership in this country that can be respected," and says that his academic studies convinced him gun ownership "is an individual right and not just the right of a militia."

But he was not finished. "Like all rights, though, they are constrained by the needs and the rights of the community." Obama then spoke of 34 students who were killed on the streets of Chicago and called for sensible gun control to prevent senseless death. He speaks of the importance of parental involvement in education before listing the many ways in which he would expand the role of the federal government in the schools.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/463haksg.asp?pg=2


Let's take this in order...

He acknowledges "a tradition of gun ownership in this country that can be respected," This is an excellent example of Obama's "new politics", which involves verbally sugar-coating everything in the hope that momentary delusion will negate real differences. Granting legal meaning to tradition is the fundamental basis of any conservative political philosophy. (It all began with respect for the institution of Monarchy as a socially stabilizing force, as opposed to the anarchy of post-Revolutionary France.) There is much to be said for conservative philosophy, but I assume that for the duration of the Democratic primaries that Senator Obama would reject the conservative label. (Obama is strikingly in line with Andrew Sullivan's brand of conservatism as outlined in his last book, wherein Sullivan identifies valuing tradition for its own sake as an essential trait of a true conservative.) The call to respect tradition is excellent politics, but awful Constitutional thought. Blacks "traditionally" did not vote in the south because they were slaves. Then the Constitution was amended to make the slaves free citizens, with the right to vote. That quintessentially non-traditional right was ensured by the Union occupation and in places where former slaves had great numbers they elected many black leaders. That era came to be recalled as one of anarchy and the willy-nilly over-turning of the established social order... much like the French revolution. (See BIRTH OF A NATION for what became the accepted white view of the anarchy represented by a black majority in the Kentucky State legislature.) When the Union ceased its active occupation of the south, tradition reasserted itself and black people were not allowed to vote for another seventy years.

and says that his academic studies convinced him gun ownership "is an individual right and not just the right of a militia." Well, he is right that the right to bear arms is "not just the right of a militia," nor is it the right of a rock or a cloud. A militia cannot have rights. But getting to what he is trying to say... the Second Amendment is not a guarantee of an individual right. All of the Amendments in the Bill of Rights are limitations on the federal government. (After the 14th Amendment, guarantees of individual rights were "incorporated" so that they now apply to State governments as well.) The Second Amendment is a limitation on the Federal government vis-a-vis the states. The Federal government cannot disarm the States, nor strip them of their ability to protect themselves against a tyrannical federal government or against other states. This sounds crazy today, but these were live issues in the 1780s. (Note that the right to bear arms is reserved to "the people." That phrase is a complex term of art, as anyone trying to understand the 10th Amendment has discovered.) So all Federal gun statutes are unconstitutional, and always have been, because they infringe on a guaranteed STATE prerogative. A State can defend itself, if it wishes, by having an armed citizenry. Or not. Any state can outlaw all guns, or allow people to own all the guns they want. If that interpretation leads to undesirable outcomes ("Ohio: The Bazooka State!") then the Constitution must be amended to reflect historical changes in fire power.

Obama's position is classic wing-nut stuff... and here's why. If the 2nd Amendment contains an individual right, then that right was incorporated by the 14th Amendment along with all other individual Constitutional rights. If the 2nd Amendment contains an individual right then that right is absolute, and ALL gun control laws, State or federal, are facially unconstitutional. There is no such thing as "State's Rights" regarding the infringement of individual liberties, though some wing-nuts think there are. (Hence Andrew Sullivan style crack-pot ideas about gay marriage and abortion being left to the States... as if US citizens have different rights based on what State they happen to be in.)

I doubt Obama is nearly foolish enough to have discovered an individual right in the 2nd Amendment, so why does he say it? Why does he take a view that requires that all gun control laws of any kind are unconstitutional?

Because he is a Constitutional nihilist! He can assuage gun nuts with his ‘individual right’ theory, confident it’s a harmless view because he doesn’t think rights are actually rights at all. He can find an individual right in the 2nd Amendment, say it should be "respected", and then turn around and say that the fact (in his view) that the Constitution contains an individual right to guns is a mere serving suggestion! It's not a right, it's a notion. Check it out:

He then says: "Like all rights, though, they are constrained by the needs and the rights of the community." That is, of course, lunacy and a short-cut to tyranny. The concept of "rights" has no meaning whatsoever if "all rights are constrained by the needs of the community." One can define the needs of the community to abrogate any right, any time.

First, "the community" has no rights. Rights are secured AGAINST the community. Look at how Senator Obama's utterly political, intellectually null idea of the Constitution leads: You have a right to not be forced to testify against yourself... unless your exercise of that right runs counter to the "needs of the community." You have the right to free speech unless the community "needs" you to shut up. Interning the Japanese was clearly unconstitutional, but the SCOTUS decided those individual rights were trumped by the needs of the community. Extra-legal detention and torture were tacitly permitted by judicial agents because of the community "needs" vis-a-vis the war on terror. Some communities "need" to not have a mosque built in them. Other communities "need" to bar felons from voting. I suspect my neighbors think they "need" me to rake my leaves.

The community can always think of a "need" to quash any individual right, and the founders fucking KNEW THAT. That's why we have a Bill of Rights! So that the government cannot just redefine those rights whenever it seems convenient.


It is not unusual for politicians to trash the Constitution. Congress knowingly passes several facially unconstitutional laws every year. But it is unusual for DEMOCRATIC politicians to trash the constitution in the context of their somber analysis as an instructor in constitutional law! But this sort of ad hoc "I will work something out because I am so clever" seems to be Senator Obama's approach to many things.

I would not dwell on this 2nd Amendment instance if it were an isolated instance, but it seems to me to be representative of Obama's approach to everything. Observe how often his discussion of rights (abortion, establishment clause, whatever) follows this same formula. 1) I will respect the views of people who are wrong, 2) I will acknowledge the rights of people who are right, and 3) I will do whatever I think best based on the narrow psychological, political environment.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. So, does this mean that I should be able to yell "Fire!" in a crowded
theater?
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. I almost spent a paragraph dealing with that. The First Amendment does not
protect otherwise criminal speech. Hiring a hit-man involves speaking to him. Conveying a bomb threat is speech.

The offense in crying "fire" in a theater is not your expression of a point of view, it is with your considered execution of an intentional act intended to stampede the people. The speech is incidental to the crime. If you intentionally used a flash-light and colored cellophane to create the same impression that the theater was on fire it would be the same act.

Similarly, saying "I have a gun" in a robbery has the intended effect of pulling a gun on someone. The fact that the crime is accomplished through speech instead of action doesn't invoke much in the way of 1st Amendment concerns.

And if you did not intend to stampede them it wouldn't be a crime. If you think the theater is on fire, you are free to talk about it.
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pauldg0 Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
31. Edwards has it together!!!
Go John 08!!!

You run a clean campaign!!!

What little his money, he manages it well. Just look at his ads in Iowa and New Hampshire!!

SMACK!!!
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. The Weekly Fucking Standard?
But i'm still not convinced. What do Hannity and Limpballs have to say on the matter?
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. You take the cake. This link is from an Oama supporter's post!
(And a lot of anti-Obama people in that thread said "The Weekly Standard"?)

This is from A PRO OBAMA piece in the Weekly Standard.

I don't know why the WS is running pro-Obama pieces, but the excerpt is offered only for what's in quotes.
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Connie_Corleone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. Scraping the bottom of the barrel there with The Weakly Standard.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
4. See.. this is why I just want to get behind somebody who says what they mean
and means what they say. Simple. If I have to do a thesis-type analysis to figure out WTF my candidate is saying and why, it just ain't right. Excellent analysis, as usual, Kurt & Hunter!
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. guns, like all rights, can be regulated
That's what he said right there when he said, well, rights can be regulated.

"Like all rights, though, they are constrained by the needs and the rights of the community."
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
5. Wow, all that time to be so wrong
You have to file for a permit to exercise your freedom of assembly. He's doing a very logical thing, giving the gun lovers their biggest talking point - and then turning right around and beating them at their own game.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
6. Hmmmmm, let's see, who is the more credible person here?
Anti-Obama poster K&H or Harvard Law magna cum laude graduate, former president of the Harvard Law Review, and U. of Chicago Law School lecturer Barack Obama?

It's a toughy.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
7. Interesting deconstruction
You're right, of course, that the Constitution's primary purpose was to limit the power of the federal government...a task at which it has completely failed. Mostly because it used its power to collect money to bribe, or to extort through the withholding of bribes, the states to fall in line with specific policy decisions whenever it became necessary or convenient.

No, states don't have rights. Nor do communities. Nor political parties. Individuals have rights. The question of the 2nd Amendment would've been made more clear had the founders not tried to be so clever and used more concise language. Citizens have the right of self defense, by the use of whatever weapon(s) are necessary while risking the least harm to those who are not involved. Of course, that's how I read it, so of course I would say that.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Well, States do have many things like rights... it's a matter of terminology
I believe the 2nd amendment reserves a right to the States against the federal government, for instance. And the 10th Amendment reserves rights to the States.

The segregationist "State's Rights" movement was against "incorporation"... the application of federal rights to the states.

States do NOT have the right to forbid black people from voting. State legislatures DO have the right to pick how to select how they Presidential electors. It's just a matter of whether "rights" is the correct term for certain prerogatives. Would one say Congress has the "right" to declare war?

Semantics, I guess.

But if the 2nd Amendment offers an individual right secured against the Federal govt, then the 14th amendment applied that to the states.

So if there is an individual right in the 2nd Amendment then all gun laws, Federal, state and local, are unconstitutional.
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AZ Criminal JD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Not what that means
The First Amendment is an individual right that the 14th incorporated to the states. It doesn't mean that all laws limiting speech are unconstitutional. What is means is that when a state or local government passes a law regulating speech a court will apply strict scrutiny, especially to political speech limitations, to ensure that the law furthers a compelling government interest and the law is narrowly tailored to meet that interest. The same reasoning applies to the 2nd amendment. Laws can be passed which regulate gun use and ownership but they must be narrowly tailored to meet a government interest.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. You're talking about precedent
Edited on Mon Dec-10-07 06:59 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
You correctly characterize the state of the constitution as currently construed, but my interpretation need no depend on precedent. Otherwise, none of us could criticize any Supreme Court decision! (And that would suck.)

The instance of interning the Japanese-Americans is a good example. It was clearly constitutional insofar as the Supreme Court said it was. But you and I and just about everyone els can agree that it was NOT constitutional.

Nor was O'Connor's equal protection argument in Bush v. Gore.

Regarding the First Amendment, the framers did not intend Congress to pass any law infringing the freedom of the press. Period. Zero. The fact that subsequent decisions say something different is, to me, highly relevant as a legal reality, but of little import as a philosophical matter. (The incorporation of the 14th Amendment created a real can of worms, since one could argue that the founders were comfortable with State's supressing speech in the 1700s, but tough, because after incorporation now they can't.)

My interpretation of the 2nd Amendment is not a summation of precedent (which is a mess in that case), but my own plain reading in historical context.


Since Obama couched his statement in terms of what he determined as a Constitutional lawyer, rather than simply saying whatever the supreme court says, I take his statements to be reflective of his interpretive philosophy, rather than his simple reading of precedent.

All the best constitutional lawyers have a distinct view of the constitution that is quite different from the sum of precedent. Obama's teacher Lawrence Tribe certainly does, and thank heavens for that.
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AZ Criminal JD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Many constitutional scholars, including those on the liberal side
Have looked at the 2nd amendment in recent years and they have found it is an individual right. Funny you mention Lawrence Tribe. He has changed his mind on this. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/us/06firearms.html
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I should have acknowledged that my view on that is an opinion
Edited on Mon Dec-10-07 07:25 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
(But it's a widely, widely held opinion, both in terms of constitutional scholarship and judicial interpretation.) And I disagree with Lawrence Tribe about all sorts of things. But he's a good example of someone who talks about the meaning of the constitution as in some sense separable from the accumulation of judicial interpretation.

I probably shouldn't have bother noting my view of the 2nd amendment, since it is sure to detract from what alarmed me, which is the stated idea that ALL individual rights are subject to the "needs of the community" (leaving aside the almost illiterate concept of the "rights of communities")

Almost all guns laws are almost certainly unconstitutional if subjected to the same scrutiny as other individual rights. So it's a loony thing to say in the context of saying gun control is okay.

I have no opinion on whether people should have guns or not. I am merely confident that there is no individual right to such. And that brilliant people on both sides will disagree endlessly, since it is such a weird case, both as written and as adjudicated.

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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. I agree with you
for what thats worth. lol.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Thanks for that excellent link!
I had not seen that piece, and enjoyed reading it.

I think the scholars mentioned here are on a terrible track. Finding an individual right does not expand rights, as they think, but serves to restrict rights by further cementing the idea that all rights should be limited by majoritrian expressions of perceived state interest.

I'm pretty libertarian, but as a First Amendment absolutist I am in no hurry to over-turn what seems a plain reading of the 2nd Amendment. Since no absolute right to guns will ever be recognized, it can only lead to greater restrictions on speech and other individual rights in the long run.

In the interests of thread-readers following the back and forth, I am excerpting the skeptical section from that NYT piece, lest reading the first paragraph be decisive:
_______________________________________
If only as a matter of consistency, Professor Levinson continued, liberals who favor expansive interpretations of other amendments in the Bill of Rights, like those protecting free speech and the rights of criminal defendants, should also embrace a broad reading of the Second Amendment. And just as the First Amendment’s protection of the right to free speech is not absolute, the professors say, the Second Amendment’s protection of the right to keep and bear arms may be limited by the government, though only for good reason.

The individual rights view is far from universally accepted. “The overwhelming weight of scholarly opinion supports the near-unanimous view of the federal courts that the constitutional right to be armed is linked to an organized militia,” said Dennis A. Henigan, director of the legal action project of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence. “The exceptions attract attention precisely because they are so rare and unexpected.”

Scholars who agree with gun opponents and support the collective rights view say the professors on the other side may have been motivated more by a desire to be provocative than by simple intellectual honesty.


“Contrarian positions get play,” Carl T. Bogus, a law professor at Roger Williams University, wrote in a 2000 study of Second Amendment scholarship. “Liberal professors supporting gun control draw yawns.”
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. It seems the contrarians have changed for the same reason
you object, to prevent more restrictive readings of other Amendments. fascinating. lol.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
9. thanks for the link
i found some other interesting tidbits there.


" Hillary's New Hope
Clinton aims her fire at the antiwar left's favorite target, Dick Cheney.
by Stephen F. Hayes
09/20/2007 12:00:00 AM

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"YOU CAN ALWAYS tell when the Republicans are getting restless, because the Vice President's motorcade pulls into the Capitol, and Darth Vader emerges," Hillary Clinton said at a town hall meeting in New York, according to a report by Politico's Ben Smith.

She continued: "I'm not invited to their meetings and I don't know what he says or does. But all the brave talk about bringing our troops home, and setting deadlines, and getting out by a certain date just dissipated."

There is no downside to attacking Dick Cheney, especially if you're Hillary Clinton. You voted for the war and for its continued funding. And although you're now running as an antiwar candidate you refuse to call your vote a mistake, a fact that has infuriated many of the Democratic primary voters who will choose your party's nominee.

No one is more despised by the antiwar left than Dick Cheney. And by going after the vice president, Hillary may be able to deflect some of the criticism she has gotten for suggesting David Petraeus was not telling the truth in his recent congressional testimony. She told Petraeus last week that accepting his answers required a "willing suspension of disbelief."

http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/public/articles/000/000/014/130pxdob.asp
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. your sources are great. here's another piece
Hillary Rodham Kerry
Hillary Clinton embarassed herself last week--but Republicans shouldn't celebrate for too long.
by William Kristol
10/01/2007, Volume 013, Issue 03

On October 2, 2003, Senator John Kerry voted for an $87 billion appropriation to fund U.S. military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan that was paired with rescinding some Bush tax cuts. It failed. Two weeks later, worried about Howard Dean's surging presidential campaign, Kerry joined only 11 other senators in voting against the $87 billion on final passage. Kerry later offered the immortal defense that he had voted for the $87 billion before voting against it.

On September 20, 2007, Senator Hillary Clinton voted for a convoluted Democratic resolution to condemn (without naming it) the ad in which MoveOn.org referred to the U.S. commander in Iraq as "General Betray Us," while also condemning attack ads from Max Cleland's 2002 Senate race and John Kerry's 2004 presidential run. (Power Line's John Hinderaker noted: "So, in the Democrats' view, General Petraeus is just another politician and MoveOn's slander is just another campaign ad.") The measure failed to get the requisite 60 votes. Later that day, worried about the party's leftist activists, Clinton (along with 23 other Democrats) voted against the following resolution:

To express the sense of the Senate that General David H. Petraeus, Commanding General, Multi-National Force-Iraq, deserves the full support of the Senate and strongly condemn personal attacks on the honor and integrity of General Petraeus and all members of the United States Armed Forces.

This isn't the first time Hillary Clinton has voted for General Petraeus before voting against him. She voted to confirm him for his fourth star and his new position
on January 26, 2007, knowing that he would be executing a counterinsurgency strategy backed up by a surge of troops. Less than two months later, as the new strategy was just beginning to show results, she supported a motion to reverse course, begin to pull out troops, and abandon the new strategy.

Kerry's vote probably helped him overcome the Dean challenge in early 2004. It can't be an accident that Kerry and Edwards, two of the 12 senators who voted against the $87 billion on final passage, were the finalists in the Democratic race, while Joe Lieberman and Dick Gephardt, who voted for the $87 billion, got knocked out early. Perhaps Hillary Clinton is right to think that siding with MoveOn against General Petraeus will help her fend off the challenge of Barack Obama.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/public/articles/000/000/014/143mzktn.asp
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Oh Sniffa, how wrong you are
I am not a reader of The Weekly Standard.

I was directed there by a DU Obama supporter to read a Weekly Standard puff piece on Obama.

That is the source of the link.



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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. So post that link
You say it came from somewhere else, but you don't link to it.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. why I remember the Obama supporter who linked to this very
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. lol
:banghead:
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. link
Edited on Mon Dec-10-07 06:40 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. cool
here's another:

Hillary Stumbles on Immigration
And it might cost her the nomination.
by Dean Barnett
11/09/2007 4:49:00 PM


IN THE FASHIONABLE salons of the East, illegal immigration is not much discussed. The gathered denizens may chat about the deplorable scandal that engulfed the Knickerbocker basketball club or the dominance of the New England football outfit or even the soul-crushing traffic on the Beltway, but seldom do they address the topic of illegal immigration. But outside the fashionable salons of the East, there is no subject that more readily animates the general public than illegal immigration.

During the last political fortnight, Hillary Clinton learned a lesson on this matter in a very public and damaging way. If she should wind up losing the race for the Democratic nomination, her bungled attempt to straddle Tim Russert's direct question of whether or not she supported Elliot Spitzer's plan to issue drivers' licenses to illegal immigrants will become infamous. Lloyd Bentsen's "You're no Jack Kennedy" will have to step aside; Hillary's exchange with Russert will become the gold standard of a politician's promising future imploding on live TV in less time than it takes to say, "Head on--Apply directly to the forehead."

The difficulty Hillary has engendered for herself with this issue has shocked a Democratic establishment which had previously convinced itself that the public's strong opinions regarding illegal immigration are a talk-radio created fiction. Leave it to the modern left--whatever they can't blame on Halliburton, they blame on Rush Limbaugh. In truth immigration is an issue that the electorate really cares about. Actually, it's the issue that people really care about.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/public/articles/000/000/014/327ljcfk.asp
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #20
32. Why do you keep posting Hillary hit pieces
when the OP is a biden supporter?
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AnotherGreenWorld Donating Member (958 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
21. This is really dumb.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
23. fence straddling.
no surprise.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. indeed
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3819017#3819082

and the most ironic part, is the link to the site was posted by a Hillary supporter.
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
30. Fundamentalism is mistaken, whether applied to the Constitution, or to any document.
Of course the Constitution means something. And that meaning is partly a framework for argument. It cannot be otherwise, because that is the way that words and natural language works. Those who believe that the One Right, True, and Fully Determined meaning to all Constitutional issues can be generated by turning some magic crank on the document need to do some more study of linguistics and logic.

:hippie:
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