Hillary and Lieberman team up to fight . . . video games.

[geek tragedy]

http://lieberman.senate.gov/newsroom/release.cfm?id=287809

Senators Joe Lieberman (ID-CT), Sam Brownback (R-KS), Evan Bayh (D-IN), and Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-NY) called for a thorough review of the video game ratings process in the wake of "Manhunt 2" receiving a "Mature" rating. In a letter to the Entertainment Software Ratings Board (ESRB), the Senators detailed how the change in rating opened the door to widespread release of the game, which depicts acts of horrific violence.

Wow, what an AWESOME group of Senators.

[Nailzberg]

1. Perhaps next they'll go after that Rock N Roll the kids are listening to.

:rofl:

[silverojo]

43. Al Gore's wife already did, remember?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PMRC

[Nailzberg]

50. Oh, I remember, believe me, I remember.

Those were my metal years. Tipper was my mortal enemy.

[zulchzulu]

2. If there was ever a reason to get "Manhunt 2" now...

Great free advertising. If I was doing the marketing, I can see the commercial now.

:rofl:

[Occam Bandage]

3. I hate when our party pulls shit like this. We need leaders that fear neither

technology nor youth-directed media.

[geek tragedy]

7. Not our party, just DLC'ers like Clinton and Bayh.

But, it has Connecticut For Lieberman and the most socially conservative Republican on aboard, so it can't be all bad.

[Occam Bandage]

8. Three of those four caucus with us.

Playing No True Scotsman doesn't change that.

[geek tragedy]

9. That's who'll own the Democratic party if the DLC

captures the nomination.

[Occam Bandage]

12. The President is not the party.

I still oppose the nomination of Sen. Clinton.

[geek tragedy]

17. President chooses who's in charge of the DNC.

If the DLC wins the nomination, we'd have someone like Rahm Emmanuel or Harold Ford as DNC chair.

[Occam Bandage]

21. The chair is elected by a vote of the DNC.

[Hippo_Tron]

78. Formally, yes, but when there is a Democratic President, he tells the DNC who to vote for

And they always vote for his choice. The DNC Chair then takes his/her marching orders from the White House political director. When your party has an incumbent President, the party machinery is pretty much controlled by the White House.

[blm]

82. Dem PRESIDENTS make their choice known and pretty much control evrything.

The only reason Dean got in for 2005 is because the grassroots Dems who made their voices heard would not allow another McAuliffe-type working for the Clinton machine get that top spot.

The party chairs from 1995 on oversaw the COLLAPSE of party infrastructures in too many red and swing states. Weak party infrastructure incapable of securing the election process at every level where the votes are allowed, cast and counted is what actually cost Dems the elections of 2000, 2002 and 2004.

[saigon68]

36. Ah yes Ram Mauel

Another clueless witless social climber.

He is a shill for certain interests east of Cape hateras who have a couple hundred nukes

[Hippo_Tron]

79. DNC Chair is an empty suit position under a Dem President anyway

They take their orders from the White House political team. Harold Ford is perfectly suited for this role (pun intended). I just hope that Hillary has someone with more political instinct than Harold to pull the strings. I've seen the man speak and answer questions before. It was painful to watch just how focused he was on making sure not to deviate from his scripted answers.

[madinmaryland]

23. Connecticut for Lieberman has kicked Lieberman out of their party!

[varkam]

4. And Hillary is back at it again.

I recall that Hillary pitched a fit with the Grand Theft Auto series. Glad to see her and Holy Joe are focusing on perhaps the biggest issue facing this nation today: violent video games.

[geek tragedy]

10. But she never uses Republican talking points. n/t

[oasis]

Hillary's not a one-trick-pony. No issue too big or small for her to handle.(eom)

[Progress And Change]

22. at least she does her job unlike...

[Bread and Circus]

74. then perhaps she is a stupid-pet-tricks pony?

first off, taking the time to team up w/ Lieberman on anything is fucking stupid. The guy is an asshole through and through.

Secondly, off all the really important things to challenge, she picks this.

I like Al and Tipper, but I think this whole "war on... violent music, video games, tv..." is just a big waste of time.

How about Hillary goes on a tirade against real violence, you know the shit where people actually get killed.

Yeah... she should start there.

[ClarkUSA]

80. Ms. 35 years of experience and still voted for the war and to ban flag burning is a real leader, eh.

Now it's on to video games. Wow, that's the kind of courageous leadership I want in the White House.

Not.

Never.

Ever.

[JTFrog]

40. The same team that fights together

to protect my kids from video game violence is the same team that fights together to protect my kids from terrorists by sending them to Iraq and Iran.

[Lerkfish]

5. but they're ok with real world horrific violence, as in WAR

:eyes:

[jgraz]

56. That gets her more campaign contributions

Now that she's got the money sewn up, she needs to start kissing ass with the social conservatives.

[oasis]

6. They should be commended for their efforts on behalf of America's youth. Please note

that they are likely stepping on some corporate toes by going forward with this action.

[RaleighNCDUer]

31. Oh, hell, all they're doing is advertising.

Nothing spurs sales like being banned or censored.

[Hippo_Tron]

11. Is that you Estes Kefauver?

[oasis]

20. Kefauver fought organized crime. Many believe it was an important undertaking. (eom)

[Hippo_Tron]

29. It was, maybe he should've spent more time on it instead of investigating comic books

[Lucinda]

13. I have absolutely no problem with the use of ratings systems n/t

[silverojo]

46. There already is a video game ratings system n/t

[Lucinda]

53. Yes I Know. The OP says they are asking for a review of the process, which

seems like a reasonable request to me.

[fujiyama]

68. No it's a waste of time

This is the kind of politically pandering, risk-free, meaningless, nanny state crap I have come to expect from Clinton.

Disgusting. I know the youth vote is not reliable, but considering how unpopular republicans are among younger voters, Democrats could capitalize on this. But this kind of BS alienates many younger male voters, and don't think it's just a bunch of 16 and 17 year olds that can't vote.

[TheWraith]

14. Are these people under the misapprehension that violent entertainment is a new thing?

I keep waiting for one of the eminently practical old-timers in the Senate to come out and say "We grew up watching World War II movies, and WE never went nuts. Why do we think our kids and grandkids are soft in the brain?"

[Deep13]

18. Yes, but this is constant.

It's realistic and the kid user does the killing and is rewarded for it. Video games are bad for children, especially young ones.

[RaleighNCDUer]

32. Are you serious?

It's a video game. There is not one person in the world who plays it who could possibly confuse it with reality.

I am reminded of a few decades ago when people were getting all twisted about Tom & Jerry - a friend walked in and saw her kids watching it, and snapped off the TV saying "I don't want you watching all that violence!", whereupon the younger boy looked at her with utter disbelief and said "But Mom! It's a CARTOON!"

Kids know the difference.

Charles Starkweather shot up Nebraska with having never heard of 'video games'. There is NO correlation. Violent people might be drawn to violent games and movies, but no ordinary person is ever going to be made violent by them.

[Deep13]

35. it is not a question of confusing reality with games

It is a question of becoming gradually desensitized to violence. Small children learn what is normal from what they observe. If they see dogs on the furniture, that is normal. If they pray before eating, that becomes normal. If they grow up being waited-on by slaves, that is seen as normal. And if they spend hours per day in front of ultraviolent video games, then that has an effect on what is normal. As a side note, it also kinda makes them stupid.

[RaleighNCDUer]

41. Great allegations.

Prove it.

Ever since the anti-comics hysteria of the 50s people have been saying this crap and they've NEVER proved it to be based in reality.

Kids know the difference between violence in cartoons and violence in real life. They know that cartoons don't feel pain, people do. And there is NO evidence that spending time on video games makes them stupid. Absolutely none. The only people saying that are the nutcases of the Family Research Council. And they don't believe in science. They just make allegations.

If you were to say this about live-action shows on TV, pro wrestling, or 'Jackass', you 'might' have some basis, but a cartoon is a cartoon, and kids know that cartoons are not real, at least once they are over 5 years old, and I don't think you're going to find any 5 year olds playing 'Manhunter'.

Show me the research. Seriously. Don't just make shit up.

[Deep13]

44. remind me next week

I'm writing an appellate brief right now.

[Hippo_Tron]

45. Small children should have no way of getting their hands on an M rated game

If they do, then their parents need to be paying more attention. I'm not saying that parents have the ability to control everything their kids see, but you can keep an M rated game out of a small child's hands.

[TheWraith]

52. People were violent and kinda stupid for thousands of years before video games existed.

If the idea that people emulate what they see is true, are video games really the place to start? Which is more dangerous: a violent video game, or seeing somebody at school get beat up because they're younger than the others, or smaller, or act differently?

You know what the number one source of bad behavior in kids is? The people around them. There's no barrier between reality and fantasy there, because it IS reality.

If entertainment was the problem, we'd have had little to no violence up until the 20th century, and now be up to our ankles in blood just walking from the car to the supermarket.

[silverojo]

47. Young children shouldn't be playing these games

That's why the ratings system is in place: To inform parents of what's appropriate for little Johnny.

[RaleighNCDUer]

96. They AREN'T playing these games.

It's not just the content - it's the platform, the actual gameplay. Any kid who is young enought to be confused by this is intellectually incapable of actually playing the game. There are no 5 years olds playing Manhunt II, I guarantee it. They're still playing Sesame Street games.

By the time they are old enough to actually play the game, they know the difference between fantasy and reality. Unless, of course, they are subscribers to the Family Research Council.

[Deep13]

15. So how stupid and callous do you want our children to be?

Sorry I agree with them. Children should not be using this stuff. It conditions their minds to think violence is no big deal and a solution to problems.

[Xithras]

94. The biggest demographic for video games nowadays are ADULTS. This is incredibly risky for her.

69% of American's play video games at least occasionally, and nearly 72% of gamers are over 18 years old. (http://www.theesa.com/facts/gamer_data.php">Cite)

Tackling video games as if they were "for kids" is not only insulting to the MAJORITY of the American population, but can easily be spun by her political opponents as an attack on a past-time that the majority of us consider harmless.

She is also risking serious financial opposition by a video game industry that today has more money than Hollywood but which has largely avoided the political arena until now. If Hillary is regarded as an anti-gaming candidate, it may prompt these video game companies to devote some of their vast billions in yearly revenue to her defeat. I have no issue with that since I'm not a Hillary supporter anyway, but it shocks me that her advisers would permit her to wade into such dangerous territory during the election.

My guess is that she was advised to do this by political advisers who have poor understanding of what they were dealing with. It isn't 1992 anymore, and political moves that may have been appealing back then are practically suicide today.

[BeyondGeography]

16. Another from the Greatest Hits of the 90s playbook

Is there a Mr. Vision in the house?

[paulk]

19. there are a lot of parents out there who will think this is a good

idea...


It's about rating these games so that parents can have some idea what's in them. What is your objection to this? Other than "Wow, what an awsome group of Senators", which really says nothing...

[Forkboy]

24. They're already rated.

http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.jsp

If parents actually pay attention they WILL know what in them, and we won't need politicians using this as an issue to pander to lazy parents who think video games are babysitters.

What also fails to get mentioned is some interesting stats.

WOMEN age 18 or older represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (31%) than boys age 17 or younger (20%).

The average age of the most frequent game purchaser is 38.

The average game player age is 33
28.2% under 18 years
47.6% 18–49 years
24.2% 50+ years

85% of all games sold in 2006 were rated “E” for Everyone, “T” for Teen, or “E10+” for Everyone 10+.

http://www.theesa.com/facts/gamer_data.php

This is just "Who'll think of the children?!?!?!" pandering and stupidity, and in light of the real violence being perpetuated by our all too willing politicians, more offensive than the games are. :shrug:

[paulk]

33. I guess the objection this time around is to a specific game

one that other countries have actually banned.

Yeah, there is a good deal of election year pandering here, otoh if our rating system lets a game through that has actually been banned in other countries because of it's extreme violence and approach to violence, maybe a review of the standards are in order.

On the other other hand, I don't know of any studies that have linked video game violence to real world violence. My wife and I (who are definitely both over 18) play video games frequently, mostly Halo, and I haven't noticed any detrimental effects. In fact, there's nothing like shooting up some aliens to dissipate some of the anger acquired from dealing with DU...

[dionysus]

37. and the game has an rating of "M" the video game version of "R"...

they're not supposedto sell it to kids, so what's the big deal?

[paulk]

48. the game in question was originally given an "adult only" rating

some changes were made which resulted in the "M" rating. The changes weren't enough to prevent it from still being banned in England and Ireland (and some Scandinavian countries, I think).

One of the questionable scenes that has led for a call by the Senators to review rating procedures is where a charactor gets castrated with a pair of pliers. I think the feeling is that, even with the changes, the game should still be "adults only".

[dionysus]

54. I've actually recently finished that game...

the execution scenes are so blurred by a filter you really can't see anything.

i totally agree this game definately shouldn't be in the hands of kids, they just need to enforce the rating system in place.

[Xithras]

95. 72% of gamers are adults.

The parents who are gamers are going to see this as stupid, because it's already a hobby of theirs and something they consider themselves capable of deciding. These aren't the "buy whatever the kid asks for" parents, because they typically play alongside the kids.

The remainder of adult gamers don't have kids, and will resent the government trying to control their harmless entertainment "for the children".

The gaming companies discovered that adults made better customers back in the mid-90's, and today focus more of their development on that segment.

Disclaimer: I am a 33 year old gamer, and you're twice as likely to find a controller in my hand than a remote at any given moment. I probably watch 30 minutes of TV a day, but I play at least an hour of video games. AND I have three kids. AND I think that anti-video game crusaders are idiots.

[killbotfactory]

25. They don't care about the youth vote, obviously

Imagine how this sounds to people in their 20-30's who grew up on video games, like me?

To me it sounds like they are a bunch of clueless jackasses.

If it were the 50's they'd be saying the same shit about comic books, movies, and rock and roll just like their predecessors.

[Dr Fate]

69. Not even just the youth vote-plenty of 35-40 year olds play video games too.

And millions more in that age group and older certainly dont get excited over pro-censorship candidates...

[Beacool]

26. What's the problem?

it's not about censorship, but about the rating of these videos. There are too many video games out there that are not appropriate for younger children.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

38. Yeah, and the game in question is rated "M" for Mature

MATURE
Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content and/or strong language.

(from the ESRB website)

Any game that's unsuitable for youngsters says so quite clearly on the box. And, as I mentioned above, the game in question has been given a Mature rating (meaning it's not suitable for minors). So, yes, I would actually say that this is a question of censorship.

[rAVES]

76. Mature isnt high enough rating? you think it could be any clearer?

[HuffleClaw]

27. what a waste of time

"Other countries agreed and have also banned the game."

since when have senators cared what other nations do?

and they also whine about the 'wii' controller.

and of course they are using children to justify their little witch hunt.

[LanternWaste]

28. Are they simply calling for a re-assessment...

Are they simply calling for a re-assessment of the ratings protocols or an out-right ban on particular styles of games?

(Console gaming, Cell phones & I-Pods-- the 21st Centuries' New and Improved Opiate for the Masses....)

[RaleighNCDUer]

30. I thought the abbreviation for independent was 'Ind'.

Oh. My mistake. That was "Idiot, CT".

Birds of a feather...

[bunnies]

34. Not much going on in the Senate these days huh?

sheesh. :eyes:

[Mojambo]

39. PROTECT the precious children! Make sure they're are healthy and well adjusted...

For when Hillary and company send them to REAL WARS.

[silverojo]

42. Don't worry about torture...VIDEO GAMES are the true evil!

Just one more reason Hillary gives me a pain in the butt.

[Hippo_Tron]

49. In 10 years, Manhunt 2 will be no big deal

When you look at how unrealistic Mortal Kombat is compared to today's games, it's hard to imagine how it was such a big deal back then.

[L0oniX]

51. Joe Lieberman should be the third rail for any democratic candidate.

Anyone who teams up with Joe Lieberman is a traitor to the democratic party. Joe Lieberman is a Bush hugging scum bag republican in dem clothing.

[jgraz]

58. If Rupert Murdoch didn't bother her, why would Lieberman?

[bvar22]

67. Very cozy

[ClarkUSA]

55. Hillary/Lieberman 08...the AIPAC Dynamic Duo agree on everything from Bush war votes to video games!

:puke:

[BootinUp]

57. Only in the blogoshere is this

controversial though.

[Dr Fate]

71. There and everywhere else that video games are popular. Even Mayberry R.F.D.?

Is it really just us mysterious, half-cyborg "blogosphere" people-buried deep within the urban jungle- who think this is a waste of time?

How about those salt of the earth Mayberry type people, who unlike DUers are good old fashioned people who REALLY exist?

I'll bet even a few of those people play video games on their 'lectric 'puters.

Next thing you know the "real people" might even miss a bake-off or county fair and check out that thar innernet blog-o-sphere, like the rest of us non-entities.

[Forkboy]

93. Guess again.

Walk into a video game store and talk about it. Go to a network LAN place and talk about it. Go to any game forum online and talk about. Then come back and tell us how it went.

[BootinUp]

97. Who is complaining?

teenagers? If adults, then I would say they are in the minority.

[Forkboy]

99. Adult gamers make up a bigger chunk than kids now.

Even women gamers are a bigger demographic than kids under 17.


WOMEN age 18 or older represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (31%) than boys age 17 or younger (20%).

The average age of the most frequent game purchaser is 38.

The average game player age is 33
28.2% under 18 years
47.6% 18–49 years
24.2% 50+ years

http://www.theesa.com/facts/gamer_data.php


Halo 2 brought in $125 million in 24 hours alone.

Two years post-Halo 2, games did record business. Despite coming to the end of a console cycle, strong sales from the stalwart PlayStation 2, the innovative Nintendo DS, and Microsoft's home-grown Xbox 360 helped the industry accumulate some $13.5 billion sales of hardware and software in North America. An impressive number to be sure, and one that did best Hollywood--from a certain point of view.

Film box office sales were also up in 2006, with over 60 movies grossing $50+ million in theaters. Even with this strong performance, the overall yearly ticket take was a mere $9.49 billion --$4 billion shy of gaming's total. This would appear to show a sizable gap in the two fields.

http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=540

I used to sell the games and no kids complain about it. But a lot of adults did. Go ahead, tell Hillary and Joe to play nanny with a group of adults who know better, and an industry that brings in more money than Hollywood.

[BootinUp]

100. Whats the issue

adults can buy any of the games.

[Forkboy]

101. I agree...what is the issue?

Only Joe and Hillary know for sure. :shrug:

I'm sure they'd tackle the threat of comics too, but that is so fifties.

[Whisp]

59. Hillary and Joe talking:

Hillary: Grand Theft?
Joe: Ought to.

[Spiffarino]

61. Very punny!

:silly:

[Spiffarino]

60. Perhaps this is a ruse to get Holy Joe close so she can cockpunch him

Yeah, I'll go with that.

[NorthCarolina]

62. Hillary & Lieberman...Birds of a Feather

Kucinich 08...Right Then...Right Now...Right For America :patriot:

[RufusTFirefly]

63. Look out, Sister Souljah. You may be next. n/t

[Mythsaje]

64. I refused to sell a rated "M" game to a kid

who might have been old enough...maybe. Opened his wallet to get the money out, but said he left his ID at home.

He said "I buy these games all the time."

"Sorry," said I.

Of course, Target has a policy about this sort of thing. Maybe other stores don't. I don't know. But if it prompts me to ask for ID, I ask for ID, unless the purchaser is obviously old enough.

Enforce the rules as they stand. And stop wasting our time and money pursuing bullshit.

And people wonder why I can't stand Hillary.

Let's worry more about REAL violence, like a illegal, unnecessary war, than virtual violence, eh?

[tom_paine]

65. Ugh. Good too see she's got her priotities straight

Multiple felony grand larceny RICO destruction of evidence...no time for that.

"Manhunt 2" has some squirting blood...STOP THE PRESSES!

:puke:

[jgraz]

66. Why is it that Hillary is always "teaming up" with nasty right-wingers?

Santorum, Gingrich, Lindsay Graham. Does she ever work with people from her own party? :shrug:

[ClarkUSA]

73. Once a Goldwater Girl, always a Goldwater Girl...

Only these days they call themselves DLC.

[fujiyama]

70. Hey Hillary! Way to go teaming up with the idiot

that had his ass completely dis proven last week. Mr Lieberman of Kyle Lieberman fame...The same piece of shit that was finally driven out of his party for his irrational support of the war. Then again, Hillary seems un-phased by real violence and is only excited about pixelated blood.

Oh and I love the pandering to clueless and idiotic suburbanites that spent 400 bucks on a video game system and then have no clue what their kids play. Nice excuse. Guess what? There are ratings already. Enforce what's in place.

Hillary looks intent on alienating groups which Dems finally have a chance in winning back. Considering how poorly the party has done among younger white males in past elections, this is incredibly stupid. But I expect Mrs. Triangulator to know best.

[rAVES]

75. there's a pair of them in it..

[troubleinwinter]

72. Gotta stop all that flag-burning, too!

:eyes:

[rAVES]

77. This is an assault on New Media by Old media..

Hillary is a shilling for them as usual.

[L0oniX]

81. If Manhunt 2 were about hunting Osama then it'd be ok huh ...asscarrots!

[mtnsnake]

83. What's wrong with Obama's mentor, Joe Lieberman, trying to protect children?

from participating in video games that portray "acts of horrific violence"?

Good on Hillary for being on board with something like this.

[Solon]

84. Because its not the job of Lieberman or Congress to protect those children, that's the parent's job.

The game is already rated "M", in a big assed letter on the front of the package, most stores will not sell it to minors under 17, and if parents buy it for their kids that are younger than 17, they have no right to bitch about the content.

[mtnsnake]

85. How do you know that it wasn't parents who wrote their Congress person to enact such bills?

I agree with you that it's the parents job to protect their children and to bring them up with proper values. I couldn't agree more. But parents aren't the ones who can materialize the legislation that's geared towards helping in that cause. That's the job of the legislators.

[Solon]

86. All such laws are already unconstitutional, this has been settled law since the 1960s...

Any attempt to regulate content in creative media, or legislating review boards has been ruled unconstitutional. Also, just because parents are stupid doesn't mean Congress has to step in. This isn't the job of Congress, in fact, its forbidden, according to the First Amendment. Just like EVERY other time Congress stepped in on this type of shit(Rock n' Roll, Comic Books, Movies, TV, Video Games), nothing will come of it, its a fucking waste of time.

[mtnsnake]

87. If it's illegal for them to do it, then why are they even bothering?

According to the article, there's already a rating system in place and these senators are trying to get them to modify their ratings process. How was the first ratings system allowed if it's unconstutional to have such a system?

[Solon]

88. The ESRB is a VOLUNTARY ratings system, just like the MPAA...

Neither one is established by law, they are industry organizations for ratings of content produced by their members. Enforcement of their policies is also completely voluntary, and not established by law either. It is perfectly legal for any store to sell "R" rated movies or "M" rated games to minors, there is no law against it, no fine, no legal penalty. Most stores, nowadays, do have voluntary enforcement, forbidding the sale of such items to minors, but this is, as I said, voluntary, not required. The MPAA has a further advantage of being able to control the distribution of movies to theaters, so if a theater doesn't follow the MPAA guidelines their recommendations through the ratings system, they can, and sometimes do, forbid new movies from being distributed to the offending theater.

[mtnsnake]

89. Thank you, Solon. I guess I'll just stick to my post #83 and forget about the #85 one. :)

except for the part in that second post where I agreed with you that it's the parent's job to protect them.

Anyway, I thought those senators were trying to influence a bill that was already in place. I didn't realize it was a volunteer system. Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me in detail.

:toast:

[Solon]

90. No problem, there is a lot of misinformation about ratings systems, for both games and movies...

For example, there is a HUGE problem with the two ratings "Ao" which is "Adults Only" for games, and "NC-17" for movies. Generally, getting these types of ratings carries a stigma that hurts sales drastically. Most movie theaters, for example, will not carry "NC-17" rated movies, and most stores won't carry "Ao" rated games either. So producers of said products try, desperately, to edit the content to get the next lowest ratings, "R" or "M" depending on product.

Of course, if you noticed, a lot of movies nowadays are distributed in stores with NO rating. They are advertised as unrated, saying that deleted scenes were put back in, mostly because if they were left in when the movies was released to theaters, the MPAA would have given the movies an "NC-17" rating. Stores don't have a problem carrying unrated content.

The fact is that both the ESRB and MPAA are arbitrary systems, by default. A movie that's considered an "R" rated movie by one person maybe "PG-13" to another, and "NC-17" to yet another. There are no objective standards here, just judgment calls, and the ESRB is no different. That's part of the reason why people have a stick up their butt about the ESRB ratings system. A lot of producers of games think the ESRB is too strict, which is somewhat valid, the ESRB ratings system is roughly based on the MPAA ratings system. There is "E for Everybody" which is equivalent to "G for General Audiences", then there's "T for Teens" equivalent to "PG" and "PG-13" ratings, and then there is "M for Mature" which is equivalent to an "R" rating. Finally, of course, there is "Ao for Adults Only" which is equivalent to "NC-17" what used to be "Rated X".

The argument that the ESRB is stricter than the MPAA comes from the fact that the ESRB is more likely to rate a game as "Ao" for violence alone, the MPAA, in contrast, seems to have less of a problem with violence, and more of a problem with sex. For example, compare the most violent, goriest movies to video games and there is no contest, a Movie like Saw, and its sequels, rated "R" movies, if translated to video game format, would be given an "Ao" rating, for the gore content. Manhunter 2, the subject of the OP, is tame in comparison to a shitload of "R" rated movies.

The ratings systems are in place to inform customers about what the content is for a specific medium, no more, no less. Its up to parents to figure out whether a game, or movie, is appropriate for their children. Part of the reason for the video game controversy is that too many people assume video games are for children only, but considering that the average age of video game customers is from the mid-20s to early 40s, this argument doesn't hold water, not anymore.

ON EDIT: Stores would have no problem carrying Unrated MOVIES, they will not carry unrated Games.

Also, a note on foreign governments, I'll give an example, back in the Early 1990s, the game "Wolfenstein 3D" came out, and was banned in Germany. Not just for violence, in Germany, its forbidden to portray blood realistically, which leads to weird things, such as Green blood. But also the Nazi imagery was a problem, it was forbidden to portray Nazi imagery in any context, even though, in this game, you were a, I believe, U.S. soldier who kicked Nazi ass. So the guys who made the game had to change the Nazis to Aliens and made them bleed green or yellow, I forget which, just so the game could be distributed in Germany.

[mtnsnake]

92. Wow, thanks again.

I'm going to bookmark this for future reference.

:thumbsup:

[DrFunkenstein]

91. Didn't Clinton Support Ned Lamont Against Lieberman?

Hold on, I'm listening to Judas Priest backwards while playing Dungeons and Dragons and reading Hammer of the Gods. Dude, Satan is totally gonna show. We're gonna take turns on Grand Theft Auto as the boundaries between reality and fantasy blur into nothingness.

[enough already]

98. She's so courageous n/t