Some Sobering News

[littlejoe]

This made me realize just how un-ready we are to take Bush on, and how important ABB is.

While we are busy ripping ech other new orifices, the Bush campaign is ramping up it's formidable machinery.

Right now, the Bush camp has 144 million dollars to spend.

To put that into perspective, it is more than four times the total that Bill Clinton raised in the 1996 campaign, and is five times the amount that John Kerry has raised to date.

And Kerry has had to spend most of his money.

More than three dozen paid campaign workers have been dispatched to thirteen key battleground states, where they have lined up campaign leaders in EVERY county, and in over 7000 voting precincts!

Bush's campaign has over 163,000 volunteers and six million e-mail correspondents.




People, this is war, no less, no more! It isn't funny, and it isn't time to prove independent of the greater good. I know that this statement alone will flame many of you, but deep down I speak the truth, and you damn well know it, whether you want to admit it publicly or not.


If you want a link for this info, all I can say is that it was in an article in todays Kansas City Star, section A, pg. six, titled, "Bush campaign workers prepare for political combat"

You can try accessing it at www.kansascity.com
That is the Kansas City Star website.

[Capn Sunshine]

1. I thought Kerry was electable

Why the rejection of the number one fundraiser , Howard Dean? Money isn't the issue! Electability is!

What are you worried about? We have our electable candidate!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

8. Dean was also the number one spender

and apparently very ineffectively too.

[Eloriel]

12. Exactly, Capn

I can't see why anyone is so concerned about Mr. Electability. Pshaw. Should be a cakewalk for Mr. Electable War Hero. Plus, where are all his contributors? What could possibly be the problem there? Isn't he raising money hand over fist on the interent because people are so excited about his candidacy?

WHAT problem? Kerry should have it all sewn up. Relax, for heaven's sake.

[sangha]

16. Plus, where are all his contributors?

Look to the 527's. Historically, the Dem party raises less hard money than the Repukes. Historically, the Dems raise more soft money. With McCain-Feingold, the soft money is being driven into 527's. When you add the 527 to the Dems hard money, we will be matching the Repukes $200 million

[Larkspur]

125. But 527's can't support a particular candidate

And the Repukes are working to change the law to make it illegal for 527's to bash specific candidates.

Dean was able to raise $41 million from 318,000 average Americans. Why can't Kerry? If Kerry is so electible, why aren't those who voted for him donating to his campaign? If they did, Kerry would not have had to mortgage his mansion. Why does Kerry have to rely on Wall Street and other high priced donors who are a shrinking pool of donors for Democrats?

Even though Dean didn't win a primary, and there are various reasons for that, Dean did win the money primary and demonstrate to Democrats that campaign finance reform can work in practice. Kerry has yet to learn those lessons.

[Auntie Bush]

15. He's electable now! But after the Bushies spend 200 million

spreading rumors and inuendows...then will he be electable? I hope so...but I KNOW he would be a lot more electable if he had Clark in hiss administration. He's our only hope for the future. This administration and their never ending corporate money scares the Hell out of me!

[Eloriel]

59. Yeah, and Kerry should know a thing or two about that

That's exactly how he made HIMSELF "electable" -- by stealing Dean's message, and claiming he and he alone is more electable than Dean.

Oh, there were some dirty tricks in there too, but my point is, kerry SHOULD be afraid of that strategy. It works!!

Too bad he didn't think more strategically himself before he royally pissed off hundreds of thousands of Dem and pro-Dem activists, some of whom willingly scrimped on food in order to financially support a candidate they actually believed in.

[DemBones DemBones]

17. If money's the only issue, Bush wins.

Dean's fund-raising went great but he couldn't get enough people to vote for him.

Should the party nominate Dean because he could raise funds, despite his not being able to get votes?

If so, please explain how he would get more votes than Bush?


I think Kucinich is the best man of all but he hasn't been able to raise a lot of money. More importantly, he hasn't been able to get enough votes. It's sad but there it is.

[w4rma]

57. Quit it, please! This is getting petty. The goals haven't changed much.

The difference is that it will either be Kerry or Edwards that will be our flagbearer.

[Freddie Stubbs]

90. Money can't always buy you love

Just ask Howard Dean and Al Checci.

[littlejoe]

109. What is that I hear? The sound of your axe grinding?

[dolo amber]

2. Yes, it IS war

Would've been nice to have a General in our corner. *sigh* :(

/sour grapes

That said, I will happily pull the lever (hopefully not touch the screen) for Kerry. And hope beyond hope that the American people have as much tolerance for campaign ads as they do for actual political discourse which is zero.

[Birthmark]

3. Even more sobering news

It doesn't matter if that assclown has a trillion dollars. Until Americans can make a decent living, he doesn't have a chance. Fact of life - no workee, no votee.

[littlejoe]

13. I sincerely hope you are right.

It worked for Clinton, but this time.....

No one has ever had the kind of propaganda machine that Bush possesses.

[Birthmark]

19. Me, too. I'd hate lose AND be wrong.

But until * can figure out a way for people to eat and make house payments with propaganda, it will fall on deaf ears. Trashing Kerry won't be enough unless Kerry has killed someone.

[ozone_man]

108. I would agree with you on that.

It's going to be getting a lot worse, not better. Whether the Republicans can make things stretch until November is doubtful. Bush is trying to expand the national debt $1T. If he gets this, then he may be able to deficit spend and fool the electorate. But those 3M people out of work? I don't think so.

My contributions went to Dean to create positive messages for real change, and was wasted by the DNC and Kerry/Gephardt backed dirty tricks (Osama ad). So, I have no money for that corporate insider, scoundrel Kerry. But I will be giving some to Nader and Independent groups who are not beholden to special interests or involved in running dirty campaigns.

[shivaji]

116. Your argument has lots of flaws...such as....

3 million unemployed vs. 120 million employed!

50% of workers have some type of stock market investment,
and stocks have gone up 35% in last 12 months.

No, pal, negatives won't work if economy keeps humming
along. What Kerry desperately needs is to generate some
excitement and hope and positive feelings as to why voters
should elect him.

[BeatleBoot]

4. BeatleBoot reporting for duty, sir!

Tell me where to be and when.

I and a shitload of people I know are ready for these sissies.

Bring It On!!!!

[littlejoe]

14. Me too.

[AlinPA]

5. Scary ..plus almost total control of the broadcast media......

We have never faced anything like this.

[Maddy McCall]

6. Many people wait to donate after the primaries when the nominee has been

selected.

[fearnobush]

10. This terrible because this is when our nominee is most

vulnerable. Bush Sleizers are taking advantage of the spending gap now, by airing grotesque ads and lies about our candidates in the so called battle states. We lose people because of this wait to donate attitude. Stop it!!!

[fearnobush]

7. Moblize the ABBEN counter strike.

Donate $25.00 to Kerry or Edwards. 10,000,000 dems at $25.00 = $250,000,000 to our nominee.

ABBXN = Anybody But Bush Except Nader.

[Eloriel]

9. Too bad you're probably going into this race with an

untested candidate. Someone who hasn't had a chance to get properly vetted during the primary process. After all, if a candidate can't withstand the slings and arrows of his primary opponents, how can he withstand Bush's and the GOP's? In Kerry's case, there hasn't been all that much of that vetting.

Oh well. Tsk, tsk.

[Old and In the Way]

25. Except Kerry's been in more tough campaigns than any other

Democrat candidate running. He kicked a popular Republican Governor's ass a few years back in his last re-election. Kerry is our strongest candidate simply because he's never lost in the major league of state politics - Massachusett's. Kerry is fully vetted and tested, he's been on the Republican radar screen for a decade and they can't lay a hand on him.

[Kanary]

32. Kerry? More "tough campaigns"?

Seems to me Dennis faced as much "tough".

Kanary

[Old and In the Way]

42. Kucinich lost re-election as mayor of Cleveland and he's only got

8 years in the US House. My point stands.

[Kanary]

48. For the elevendy hundredth time...

He was vindicated for his mayoralty, and he's had some very tough battles against Republicans in a Republican area.

Without taking on Republican characteristics.

Kanary

[littlejoe]

105. How was he vindicated?

[tmwat]

119. Turned out he saved Cleveland residents almost $200M

AS CLEVELAND MAYOR, KUCINICH'S FIGHT TO SAVE PUBLIC POWER
A Profile in Political Courage...and Vindication

Having been elected to Cleveland's City Council at age 23, Dennis Kucinich was well-known to Cleveland voters when they chose him as their mayor in 1977 at the age of 31. He was elected mayor on a promise that he would not sell off or privatize the beloved and trusted city-owned power system, though Cleveland was deeply in debt.

Cleveland Magazine offered this summary: "Kucinich refused to yield to bankers who gave him a choice: Sell the Municipal Light System to the Cleveland Electric Illuminating Co. or the city will go into default. The mayor said no."

When Kucinich refused to sell Muny Light, the banks took the unprecedented step of refusing to roll over the city’s debt, as is customary. Instead, they pushed the city into default. It turned out the banks were thoroughly interlocked with the private utility, CEI, which would have acquired monopoly status by taking over Muny Light. Five of the six banks held almost 1.8 million shares of CEI stock; of the 11 directors of CEI, eight were also directors of four of the six banks involved.

By holding to his campaign promise and putting principle above politics, he lost his re-election bid and his political career was derailed. But today Kucinich stands vindicated for having confronted the Enron of his day, and for saving the municipal power company. "There is little debate," wrote Cleveland Magazine in May 1996, "over the value of Muny Light today. Now Cleveland Public Power, it is a proven asset to the city that between 1985 and 1995 saved its customers $195,148,520 over what they would have paid CEI." He also preserved hundreds of union jobs.

When Kucinich re-launched his political career in the mid-1990s, it was on the strength of having saved public power. His campaign symbol was a light bulb. "Because he was right!" was his campaign slogan when he won his seat in the state senate in 1994. The slogan that sent him to Washington two years later was "Light Up Congress."

In 1998, the Cleveland City Council issued a commendation to Dennis Kucinich for "having the courage and foresight to refuse to sell the city's municipal electric system."

http://www.kucinich.us/peoplepower.php

[littlejoe]

121. Thanks. I didn't know!

[littlejoe]

103. Yes, Kerry has been in three tough contests.

[Eloriel]

62. Boy are YOU going to be surprised

I can't wait.

Just the stuff that *I* know about him -- all true, not even spun -- would sink him like a stone.

This should get be very interesting. Not pleasant, but interesting.

[littlejoe]

93. And what is it that you know?

[Zomby Woof]

52. there was vetting enough

Before xmas, all you Dean people were telling the rest of us to stop supporting our candidates and accept the inevitable - Dean IS TAKING BACK AMERICA! DEAN WILL BE THE NOMINEE.

Kerry was DOA, and dismissed outright.

Dean is now vapor, and you all REALLY HATE that the tables on "accepting the inevitable" have turned.

:loveya:

[Scott Lee]

54. Don't vet your pants. Dean is still very much around.

There might not be much Zomby twoof to the contrary.

[littlejoe]

94. Dean was a shooting star. I believe we've seen the last of him.

[Scott Lee]

112. Is that why you all are begging him to tell Nader to stop?

My my my. It sure looks like you need the good Dr NOW, doesn't it.

*evil grin*

[littlejoe]

122. I'm not telling Dean a darn thing. In fact, today, Dean himself

has asked his supporters to not get behind Nader.

[dkf]

82. Well I vetted Kerry and I found him wanting.

How in the world that man is supposed to inspire anyone to sacrifice in order to donate $ to him is beyond my imagination. My time is also not going to be spent on electing someone I only feel disgust for.

If he had only tried to win fair and square...

[Guaranteed]

11. Our party needs an enema.

It's rotten. It needs to decay, and then we can rebuild it.

[LandOLincoln]

36. Brilliant. And just what do you imagine is going to be left of this

country by the time you get around to "rebuilding" the Democratic Party?

[Guaranteed]

44. I don't know...but I know that who we have representing us

right now hasn't exactly done a great job of preventing the powers that be from taking us down the road to destruction.

We oughta do something REAL quick.

[LandOLincoln]

47. Yeah? and what exactly do you recommend, Mr. Strategic Genius?

[BeatleBoot]

46. Flush!

[NWHarkness]

18. Make the money the issue

The way to neutralize Bush's fundraising advantage is to constantly point out the corrupt way he raises it, and the impropriety of his attempt to "buy" the election.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

86. You're kidding right

Make the money the issue? Neutralize Bush's fundraising? Newsflash, you could "neutralize" him right now to the point that he gets not one more penny in contributions and that dont change the fact he already has 144 million. And when you find a way to stop the wealthy 2000.00 donors and the huge bundlers has behind him that want to make damn sure they continue to keep the wealth they have and continue to avoid the taxes and loopholes he created for them you let the rest of us know.

[Cooley Hurd]

98. He wasn't talking about stopping Bush's fundraising...

...which would be impossible. I'm pretty sure NWHarkness meant we should bring attention to the fact that Bush's huge war chest itself shows he's trying to buy the election. That would turn him off to the poorer part of the electorate as well as Paleo-Conservatives and Libertarians (fearing a "corporate Big-Brother government").

The Repugs are quick to blather on about Teresa Heinz's $$$. That makes Bush's questionable fund raising fair game.

[killbotfactory]

20. Well the guy who was the best fundraiser was torpedoed on "electability"

concerns, and before that was called a flip-flopping opportunist for seeing the writing on the wall and choosing to opt out and raise money from a lot of small donors. Money is obviously not that important.

[OKNancy]

21. It's a daunting task, however

I know a lot of people who are holding off with donations until the candidate has been selected. If Kerry ( or Edwards) gets their act together, they can raise a lot of money on the internet and/or other traditional ways.

Besides, Bush sucks.

[Old and In the Way]

22. Just goes to prove, money can't buy you love. Ask Howard.

Until dollar bills get to pull the lever in the voting booth, I won't worry about how much $ the RNC can raise. They will go down as the financially wealthiest Party that lost an election because it is totally bankrupt in terms of ideas and policies to benefit this country.

[littlejoe]

28. It depends on how you spend it.

[maxanne]

23. another

ABB thread from littlejoe. Thanks, dude!

[littlejoe]

29. You can rely on me to keep beating the ABB drum!

[maxanne]

37. I'm sure we've all noticed

that. Kind of like the Energizer bunny.

[edzontar]

24. The problem with these ABB threads is that they only play to the converted

And the more hysterical and over the top they get, the less attractive the Dem Party looks as a result.

I think it makes more sense to engage Nader directly, expose the flaws in his basic argument, and keep pointing to the disaster that is GW Bush.

That is what we shall all have to do anyway.

To rant and trash people here because they have a moral or ethical problem with the concept of ABB--as I do--will get you nowhere.

[littlejoe]

30. Isn't that what converted means?

If people have been "converted", then they must have been swayed by something. I happen to think that there actually are converts out there, and god bless them!

[Eloriel]

67. Shhh. I'm enjoying the hell out of them.

It makes their little heads explode. It's gotten quite amusing.

[MidwestMomma]

26. That's why it would have been nice to have a candidate

With a solid grassroot support base. I think that's one reason why Gore endorsed Dean because he knew it would take thousands of people on the ground to counteract the Bush media spin machine. Whoever the eventual candidate is, they'd be wise to figure some way, besides the ABB fear tactic, to motivate volunteers to put their heart and soul into campaigning the way the Dean and Clark supporters did for their candidate.

[ewagner]

27. Here's the key:

More than three dozen paid campaign workers have been dispatched to thirteen key battleground states, where they have lined up campaign leaders in EVERY county, and in over 7000 voting precincts!

One of the inherent weaknesses of our party is that we don't lend ourselves to that kind of organization, but we should.

We can do the same thing.

We can start by naming or volunteering to be precinct captains and then appoint block captains in every neighborhood in every precinct. Years ago we did this and it was pretty hard. The internet makes it much easier.

We can hold neighborhood block parties or neighborhood coffee parties to keep people informed and involved.

We can develop lines of communications from the top to the bottom so that everybody is getting the same message and being alerted to the dirty tricks and smear tactics that are taking place in other geographical areas as well as help in thwarting them.

We can do a lot. We can do it cheaper than the repubs. The repubs have money but we have an advantage: We want Bush OUT! more passionately than they want him IN !

[littlejoe]

31. You are 100 percent right. If there was ever anything that I

admire about the republican party, it is their organization.

[ewagner]

35. When I was much younger

and when the Repubs were the "progressive party" in Florida, I went to their campaign management seminars and learned all about organization.

[littlejoe]

38. David Brock's book, "Blinded by the Right" does a fair job

of describing the organization of t6he right wing's propaganda machine. Good reading.

[littlejoe]

39. David Brock's book, "Blinded by the Right" did a fair job of

outlining the right wing's propaganda machine during the Clinton years. Good reading.

[Eloriel]

69. I think there's one flaw in your plan

It's a major one.

I've been thinking about this a lot. The people who actually got to see Dean -- REALLY see him, on TV or in person (and not in a debate) -- really "got it" what he was all about, for the most part. Many of them had been disengaged from politics for a long while or forever, many were new voters. A very good many of them became activists, if only by supporting Dean financially in small amounts. IOW, they saw something, or rather someONE, to genuinely get excited about.

For those people who weren't paying attention, until perhaps the last few days, they were passive "political consumers," not really participants except to show up to vote.

That's what the vast majority of people are used to doing -- tuning out until the last minute and then only to get enough of a drift to show up to vote. Both parties have been responsible for getting people to tune out.

I don't think you're going to be able to engage quite that many people -- people who are passive consumers (much like TV watchers) in such a short period of time. And certainly not with Mr. Excitement himself. Bwaahahaha.

But go right ahead and try. Should keep you busy for a while.

[saracat]

74. Negative Attitude

You almost sound as if you hope we lose, and that sucks. It is unfortunate for you that Dr. Dean proved himself to be unelectable.And despite arguments to the contrary, he did just that. He may have raised lots of money and introduced new people to the process but they didn't stick. They didn't vote for him and that is what electability is all about.Even the youth vote that supposedly was for Dean in Iowa voted for Kerry. I resent the fact that so much money was pissed away on a failed campaign and takes money away from our nominee in the general.Some die hard Dean supporters will feel it was all worth it to get their message out but we will know who to blame if our nominee can't compete financially and is eaten up by the money driven media machine.Winning is ALL that counts because if you don't win ,you can't accomplish anything else.Why is that so hard for some people to understand?

[dkf]

84. Well if you think that Dean's money was going to fund whoever

won the primary you are deluding yourself.

My $ went to Dean because I believed in what he was doing. It was not ABB money. It was for Dean. If Dean was the nominee, I'd probably give at least another $1000 or so and I'd maybe donate to the Dem party.

For my birthday last year I asked my friends and family to donate to Dean. This generated at least a couple hundred dollars.

Kerry, on the other hand, is not the kind of person who inspires sacrifice. He has killed this golden goose and he and the party will get nothing from me any more, nada, because I don't give money to people I greatly greatly dislike.

So get over the "that was money we could have had for the general election" deal because that was never the case.

[saracat]

88. You reinforce my position.

You really ARE hoping we lose because you would rather be right than win.The voters didn't pick your candidate, so you would rather punish the whole country than support the only choice that you might have for change.That is pathetic!
And John Kerry doesn't inspire sacrifice?I could agrue with you about that but you are not precondtioned to reason so try forgetting about any individual candidate and start thinking about this country. This election is not just about you and your candidate.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

87. another You're kidding right?

"I resent the fact that so much money was pissed away on a failed campaign and takes money away from our nominee in the general"

Is this the excuse before the fact? A pre arranged "it's all someone else's fault" fall back when "the one" fails to do what was so aggressively shouted could be done? If you are coming up with excuses ahead of time then that is a clear indicator you don't have much faith in the first place. Hmmmmmmmmm

[saracat]

89. I do resent the waste of money.

I resent the waste of money by all the candidates in the primary.Never has so much money been spent in a primary. Unfortunately Dr.Dean has spent more than anyone else and with less result.If Dr. Dean had beem the candidate, he would still have needed necessary resources than would have been already depleted in the primary. This is only the Primary for god's sake.
I have worked on several national campaigns and I can tell you no one can run without money, and the money pool in the party is only so deep.You can have all the faith in the world in a candidate but you also need the support network of money behind him. I am fearful that the sources, not just unwilling Dean supporters are going to be "tapped"out. and it disgusts me that anyone cocould contribute to putting us in the position of struggling to win the most important race of our lifetime because of internecine fighting and pettiness.

[Eloriel]

91. You can relax -- the money that was funding Dean

wasn't the money from resources that were going to be "tapped out" any time soon.

If Dr. Dean had beem the candidate, he would still have needed necessary resources than would have been already depleted in the primary. <[br />
Not even close. Dean's money came from people like me who couldn't pull together even $1K at a time, let alone the $2K max, but who could go on to give little dribs and drabs every month or every few weeks, and get their friends and family members to do the same, throughout the whole length of the campaign.

After Dean "lost" Iowa, THREE THOUSAND BRAND NEW CONTRIBUTORS made contributions to the Dean campaign. I imagine they were Dean supporters and maye workers who hadn't donated before but didn't want their dream to die and ponied up, even if it was financially difficult to do so.

Dean didn't take any money away from anyone else at all. He inspired a whole NEW way of funding candidates (actually, a very old way, but one out of disfavor 'cause it's much harder work for candidates than simply picking up corporate money while drinking white wine and munching baked brie -- ESP. for those candidates who aren't particularly exciting or engaging to begin with and represent the same old "bs. as usual" politics we Deanies were fighting against).

Dean didn't deplete your candidates' funds -- they were never going to go to him to begin with.

[saracat]

104. Nah! Dean's fundraisers

ate expensive cheese and chocolate truffles and listened to expensive musical acts such as Carly Simon. This is his own accounting. "Dean didn't take any money from anyone else at all" Why don't you look at his FEC filing before you speak. He was so establishment and "BS as usual" that it makes your head spin. Three of the top insider lobbyists were running his campaign.And BTW check all the lobbyist contributions while your at it. And the list of his congressional supporters was a profile of the DNC. Most voted for the War like Harkin, but that doesn't seem to bother the ultra pure Dean supporters .It is different and acceptable when it is "your guy"
And ,guess what my post re money wasn't just about Dean if anyone can read to comprehend.It was about PRIMARY spending. We have never spent as much in a PRIMARY before, and people are "tapped out" even before the general.There is only so much money. And it is NOT all Dean money.What don't you get about that?
If you weren't going to give anyway except for Dean , your democratic support wasn't very strong to begin with and Dean didn't make any bona fide conversions to the Democratic Party with supporters such as yourself.Thank God the good doctor is not like you and has advocated support for the eventual nominee and his party. I also thank God that most Dean Democrats are, unlike you, willing to do whatever they can to get Bush out of the White House. I thought that was one of the major points of the Dean Campaign , but obviously you didn't get it!

[Eloriel]

106. Almost 90% of ALL Dean's contributions

were from average people.

Nah! Dean's fundraisers
ate expensive cheese and chocolate truffles and listened to expensive musical acts such as Carly Simon. This is his own accounting.

Yes, there were a few of those. That didn't make up the bulk of his money, though. I went to a $100 fundraiser - does that count? No Carly Simon, tho.

"Dean didn't take any money from anyone else at all" Why don't you look at his FEC filing before you speak.

Your claim was that he took money the other candidates would have / should have had. He didn't take money that they would've gotten. "Dean didn't take any mone from anyone of the other candidates at all."

He was so establishment and "BS as usual" that it makes your head spin. Three of the top insider lobbyists were running his campaign.And BTW check all the lobbyist contributions while your at it. And the list of his congressional supporters was a profile of the DNC. Most voted for the War like Harkin, but that doesn't seem to bother the ultra pure Dean supporters .It is different and acceptable when it is "your guy"

Anyone that calls Dean "establishment" is either ill-informed or...some other version of ill-informed.

Those from Congress who supported him have a pretty good history of being either quite populist (Harkin) or very pro-democracy and progressive. They saw what he was doing -- reinvigorating the whole democratic process and helping return power to the peoople over their government, not to mention a terribly exciting form of natural cmapign finance reform -- and they were eager to help lift America's politics by endorsing him.

And ,guess what my post re money wasn't just about Dean if anyone can read to comprehend.It was about PRIMARY spending. We have never spent as much in a PRIMARY before, and people are "tapped out" even before the general.

Sorry, but Dean supporters aren't tapped out at all. Some of them have given the max for the primary season to one person, but none of us is tapped out.

There is only so much money. And it is NOT all Dean money.What don't you get about that?

Nothing there to "get." It's fallacious and wrong-headed -- so much so it's difficult to figure out how to respond. Where Dean was concerned, there was a nearly endless supply of money. There were millions of people yet to be tapped at all. $10, $25, $50 adds up when you've got thousands upon thousands contributing those amounts.

"Dean money" is any money he can get -- and he was able to inspire thousands of everyday, regular folk to contribute to his campaign.

How's your guy doing, btw?

If you weren't going to give anyway except for Dean , your democratic support wasn't very strong to begin with and Dean didn't make any bona fide conversions to the Democratic Party with supporters such as yourself.

And just how much have you contributed to your candidate?

Look -- the Democratic Party long ago pretty much gave up on grassroots organizing and grassroots fundraising because corporate contributions were so much easier to get -- So MUCH less work, less fuss and you didn't have all these, um people expecting to actually have a voice in the process. Don't blame me.

And no, I wasn't supporting -- and won't support -- the Democratic Party, even tho I was a Dem well before Howard Dean happened along. I contributed a number of times (and still am contributing) to the one man who could inspire my contributions. If anyone else comes along who inspires that, I'll contribute to them too.

It's hilarious that you would even think of trying to blame Dean because none of the other fools inspire my contributions.

Thank God the good doctor is not like you and has advocated support for the eventual nominee and his party. I also thank God that most Dean Democrats are, unlike you, willing to do whatever they can to get Bush out of the White House. I thought that was one of the major points of the Dean Campaign , but obviously you didn't get it!

Well, as I've said before, the DNC/DLC doesn't want my voice, they don't want my candidate to have a fair chance at the nomination, they think they've got it covered, so they obviously don't need -- let alone want -- MY help. In all their infinite wisdom, they can take it from here.

And if you think your attempt to shame, bully or browbeat me into supporting a corrupt organization in any way will work, you're simply mistaken. And I mean REALLY mistaken.

As for Dean, he knew early on what the score was when he said -- as an observation, not a warning -- that he didn't know if we were all "transferrable." And indeed, some of us are not. I support his right to do whatever he thinks is right re the nominee, but that doesn't mean I'll follow him.

If you don't like me exercising MY right to vote as my conscience dictates, well, that's just too bad.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[shivaji]

115. Dean lost Iowa because he was attacked from ALL sides

First it was Gephardt who had to win Iowa or else fade away.
So he attacks Dean the presumed front runner and does not lay
a feather on Kerry or Edwards. Clark was AWOL in Iowa.
Gephardt spent his entire war chest attacking Dean.

Then there was the likes of Limbaugh & Rove surrogates
mercilessly attacking Dean 24-7. Even the liberal media
was anti-Dean because of some perceived unelectabilty.

[littlejoe]

95. If you look at Dean's base of support, it is made up almost

entirely of young, idealistic, inexperienced voters. Not exactly the kind of base that would win an election, as proven after he spent almost forty million dollars in Iowa and N.H.

[Eloriel]

107. No, and I'm sure you can't find any data to support that

You can find some anecdotal stuff, primarily in the echo chamber press, but no hard data.

The closest hard data is that nearly 25% of his contributions came from "under 30," which is a pretty impressive statistic. But his supporters are from across the political spectrum, and all age ranges. Lots boomers like me, lots people in their 30s and 40s, lotsa seniors.

[5thGenDemocrat]

102. Yeah, yeah, yeah -- you won't vote for Kerry (we all got it)

I wouldn't (and proudly didn't) vote for Dean. Seems my non-vote cancels your non-vote. And I'm voting Dem in November no matter who the candidate is.
John
My preferred candidate was Clark, who went down in short order. Too bad for me, I guess, but the difference is I'm not still whining about it.

[VOX]

80. Thanks, ewagner for responding positively to littlejoe's important post...

Seems many here have an axe to grind at the expense of the whole. But your ideas make good sense, and are genuinely positive suggestions on ways to neutralize the goliath that we are faced with.

Thanks -- :toast:

[salin]

33. In 2000.. I believe Bush outspent Gore.... who (techincally) won.

And there were none of the heavy serious issues that are floating around this election cycle that are very damaging to bush. So yes, he will have much more to spend than any democratic candidate. But he NEEDS to overspend any democratic candidate at an even higher rate to even remain competitive - to overcome his credibility issues, his lies about the economy, his lies about leading us to war while NOT preparing postwar policies, his lies about Afghanistan and the "war on terror" (which was crippled by his war on Iraq), his lies about medicare reform, his continued pushing of tax policies that help the biggest of corporations - at the exclusion of small businesses, his buddies war profiteering in Iraq, etc. There are numerous things for almost voter to be outraged over...

I am not saying his fundraising is a good thing, or has no effect. It undoubtedly will. But I am not sure that it can be compared to the fundraising advantage (in terms of ration) from the last election compared to this election (an even greater advantage)... because he has been such a miserable president that he has a much larger hurdle to overcome this time around. This aspect needs to be factored in when considering what that funding differential means.

[mandyky]

34. I suggest Edwards and Kerry supporters

get out and support their candidates instead of moan, bitch and whine about Nader. I think the Dem party that destroyed Dean just want an excuse if they lose. Ralph is the excuse of the day. Last week it was Dean not dropping out. Watch out Sharpton and Kucinich supporters...

[Nashyra]

41. Some and I say some of the "sour grape losers"

in DU is unbelievable. For those of us whos candidates have gotten out of the race Get Over It, As much as I would have loved to see Clark in a head to head with Kerry instead of Edwards it is an undisputable fact tha Clark is out and so is Dean. Y'all here that Dean is out. And his supporters who continue to act like sarcastic little school children with their childish posts about the front runner is just plain stupid. Why not think about what Dean would do, oh yeah he said to support the Dem nominee, he said that the most important thing about 2004 was TO GET RID OF BUSH. So if you are such loyal supporters why in the hell don't you do what your cnadidate asks you to do. That does not mean you have to support Kerry or Edwards but I'm sure it does mean not giving any more ammunition to Rove and it certainly does not mean giving Nader any credibility. Dean and Clark ran on a vision, and they inspired their individual supporters for some of the same reasons and some different reasons, but they were both propelled to run first and foremost to get rid of Bush. So support your candidate and do what the hell they are asking you to do, Help get rid of Bush. This is why it is called the primary, so that we get down to one candidate and then we all as Democrats work to get that nominee elected so that we no longer have a Republican president, How f*&^%$ hard is to get.

[mandyky]

43. Actually Dean isn't out

he has suspended campaigning, and I will support him until the convention. Because I want regime change (read that idiot boy gone), I will vote for the Dem nominee. Sorry I cannot and will not support them they way I did Dean. If folks wanna classify it sour grapes fine, I plan on working in the Dean movement well beyond Nov. All the other candidates that left endorsed other candidates, Dean didn't. He asked us to help get more delegates and help elect progressives to Congress and to vote Dem in Nov.

[Nashyra]

45. Working for the issues that Dean supports

and working for delegates is not the same as trashing other candidates or being sarcastic. It also does not constitue advocationg a third party vote. That's why I said some, I respect your working hard to continue Deans work just like quite a few of the Clark people have stayed cohesive and will work for the Generals platform, the difference being that he chose to support Kerry. The point being they both have committed to the Democratic party and getting rid of Bush and they deserve to have their supporters act in a responsible and respectful way when representing them.

[dkf]

85. C'mon. Stop playing like you're supporting Kerry to be altruistic.

We all know your ulterior motive is that you want Clark chosen VP.

What do you think we are, stupid?

[Nashyra]

123. Maybe so by some post

No my motive is ABB and I have never made any bones about not wanting Clark as VP and I am not ashamed to say so. But I di work in NH for Clark and along the way met alot of Dean supporters out in the frigid cold agreeing to disagree and their 1st goal if it could not be Dean was ABB. They were some pretty impressive people working for Dean unlike some here.

[Emillereid]

101. Couldn't agree more --

Before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, yes I will vote ABB, but I will not give money or work ABB. I plan to vote for Dean in the upcoming primary in an effort to get some Dean delegates to the convention and will continue to participate and organize and build the 'Dean' movement. As I've said before the Dean revolution was always about something much bigger than the candidate Dean -- it's about re-democratizing America; it's about taking our country and party back from the oligarchy, that have all but snuffed out this 228 years old experiment in self-rule.

I will work and contribute to local candidates and congressional representatives -- that effort is just as important as the presidency.

[spooky3]

50. I think that's good advice for EVERYONE here who does not want to see

four more years of *.

[AntiCoup2K4]

40. The DLC chose a candidate who had to mortgage his mansion to stay in .....

...the race. Makes you wonder if those pukes in Democrat suits really wanted to beat Bush in the first place, doesn't it?

[Scott Lee]

55. And now the Kerrypods bawl about Bush's money.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry with them. You?

[Eloriel]

70. I think they got what they deserve

I certainly won't be shedding any tears.

[littlejoe]

96. If you want to take your radical lance, and go tilting at

windmills, may I suggest going to Amsterdam?

[Scott Lee]

113. I've heard similar retorts over at Free Republic

You seem quite familiar with it. Care to expound?

[littlejoe]

127. Free republic, huh? Spend a lot of time there?

[vision]

49. I have given money to Kucinich because he represents me

I don't have enough money to spend on those who don't represent me.

It is too early IMO to see who will represent me in the GE. My vote is ABB. But my money will follow my convictions. If I think the DEM selected will represent me I will try to support him financially but if not all he gets is my vote.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

51. This is just now being realized?

This is old news. It's been common knowledge for months and months what Bush would have and be able to do. But.....everyone stopmed their feet and demanded the primaries be OVER NOW. Ya think it might have helped to have found these easily findable facts and actually think about what the fits being trown might mean if it did happen. It's called planning ahead. Getting caught with your pants down is a bitch. However, no sympathy here. You asked for it, you got it. Now it's time to deal with it. Congratulations, you wanted it over. It's over. You just handed Bush and his 163,000 volunteers and 6 million strong email list and 144 million in unlimited funds the glaring targets he needed. good luck dodging the bullets successfully.

[Scott Lee]

53. Dont blame Dean supporters.

Our guy had fund raising ability second to none. He was the most viable democratic opponent to battle Bush-hole's bank account.

But some had other ideas. I guess the saying is "you made your cake, now lie in it" ;)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

56. I don't blame 'Dean supporters' for your actions - I blame you.

[w4rma]

58. Oh, you told him didn't you? He'll be sure to donate to Kerry now.

</sarcasm>

[Scott Lee]

61. LOL! Yeah he's a real silver tongued persuador isnt he!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

63. Oh I'm so mortified!

Maybe if I wear a hairshirt and fast for 200 years, both of you will support our party.

:eyes:

[w4rma]

68. I think your time would be better spent

learning how to get along with other Democrats.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

72. Look in the mirror.

[w4rma]

75. A good book for you

How To Win Friends And Influence People by Dale Carnegie (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671723650/102-4436091-0289736?v=glance

[Feanorcurufinwe]

76. What makes you think I want you as a friend?

LOL

[w4rma]

77. You really can't take hints very well. (n/t)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

78. Why

would I want to take a hint from you?

[littlejoe]

99. You have proven my point. It seems.......

that some are ONLY interested in ripping new orifices in each other.

[Scott Lee]

60. Does this mean no invite to the pool party this year?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

64. No, you're invited. Jump in!

[Scott Lee]

114. Have you cleaned all the Kerry from the bottom of the pool?

I won't swim with all that green ooze about.

[rocktivity]

65. Will everyone please stop freaking about the GOP's freaking money?

Can't you tell that the media keeps harping on that just to scare us? And don't you think it's a safe bet that there are at least one million people in this country who hate bush and can afford to part with 144 dollars?

:headbang:
rocknation

[The Magistrate]

79. One Thing To Remember, Ma'am

Those reptiles are luxury-loving, and inherently corrupt. An appreciable proportion of their vaunted monies will be squandered and stolen by the operatives in charge of it....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[JVS]

66. Doesn't his wife have money?

[littlejoe]

124. I don't really know.

[Eloriel]

71. Ooops! This was about to scroll off the front page

can't let that happen.

:kick:

[Dover]

73. Bush dropped hundred dollar bills over Afghanistan and they didn't

buy it. So what makes you think his money will win him anything other than contempt? I think it will backfire.

People in America feel just as disgusted and resentful of Bush's heavyhandedness as the Afghanis, and we are just as desperate to dump that illigitimate GOP SOB.

[JNelson6563]

81. But, but, but....

I thought the masses were turningout in record numbers to passionately support Kerry! Surely they love him so very much! I know cause the TV tells me all the time.

Surely these millions of adoring voters will support their man?

Julie

[molly]

83. Of course we will support our man

here's a little history lesson. When Tom Carper ran against Bill Roth, Tom had half the funds. He beat Roth by a landslide.

[ArkDem]

92. The unions and their 527 committees will

equalize that.

[notbush]

117. One of the problems the unions

have had in many recent elections ......They can deliver the votes of their leadership but not their members.

[BinkieGirl]

118. I have a very good friend who works for trade unions in Ohio...

and they no longer raise money for Democratic candidates because they find their membership votes Republican. I don't know..but I think the tide may be turning with some of the unions...

[ArkDem]

126. I was talking about delivering money

.

[nolabels]

97. I don't know where you all been but this dude has been ABB since........

1987 when poppy got the nod. Frankly I don't know that it will be the end of the world if somehow they figure out a way to install this fraud again. I only take pride in knowing the more I find out, the more utterly amazed. When I was growing up, going through grade school, I had such contempt for them who would propel this thing of the status quo, this thing that says this is how things are. I was thinking they were not teaching young people what they needed to know in order understand what world is about.

I feel vindicated on that one and so many others, no, I also don't feel smug, but do have a sense of betrayal. Society is failing itself in these United States, we have all been hornswagled. Now only fools and ignorant people don't realize this, the others that don't want to know, will also be eclipsed sooner or later. It will become their issue. Being ABB is not a movement, it's a life commitment. I will be wearing my ABB proudly

[ArkDem]

100. Very well thought out and well written!

.

[radfringe]

120. $144 million, 163,000 volunteers and six million e-mail correspondents.

sounds formidable...

but think of what is going on in Iraq, a few insurgents/rebels (whatever you want to call them) are messing up things there pretty good

key is to keep bush* on the defensive, make him try to defend his record, respond to his attacks with facts and then ask him about his own record

ask him why he signed the econominic report but won't "endorse it" - isn't his signature an endorsement? Isn't he responsible and accountable for whatever papers/reports he signs? Why is he trying to weasle out of it? Where are the jobs? Where's the surplus?

Does he agree with Paige that teachers are terrorists?