Wait a second, How is Edwards going to get Universal Health Care passed his first year in office?..

[Tellurian]

The Canadian Plan took years to get through the legislative process. What magic bullet is Edwards offering that we do not yet know about that will get his Health Care Plan passed his first year in office?

Obama is not included in the discussion of Universal Health Care Plans because his plan is not Universal..

Also included in Edward's Universally Mandated Plan:

K Gardner's observations:

(very interesting aside: when I went to the website, it appears the text about wage garnishments, collection agencies and other ways he plans to "enforce" his mandate have disappeared, but I hung onto this from Nov 30)

Individual Responsibility. Once insurance is affordable, everyone will be expected to take responsibility for themselves and their families by obtaining health coverage.

Under the Edwards plan, when Americans file their income taxes, they would be required to submit a letter from an insurance provider confirming coverage for themselves and their dependents.

If someone did not submit proof of coverage, the Internal Revenue Service would notify a newly established regional or state-based health-care agency would enroll the individual into the lowest cost health-care plan available in that area....The newly covered individual would not only have access to health benefits but would also be responsible for making monthly payments with the help of a tax credit.

....If a person did not meet his or her monthly financial obligation for a set period of time (perhaps a year, perhaps longer) the Edwards plan would empower the federal government to garnish an individual's wages for purposes of collecting "back premiums with interest and collection costs."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3814616#3815239

[cuke]

1. Any candidate who promises UHC by the end of their 1st term is lying

They are making a promise they may not be able to keep. The system is not going to be able to turn on a dime. It will take several years to implement the changes

[Tellurian]

5. Oh, so a FEAR tactic was the thrust of a similar thread started last night

to somehow intimate Hillary would not be working in 'good faith' or would take too long to get her HCP approved by Congress..pointing to the msnbc matrix as somehow an untrustworthy statement.

[cuke]

9. Well, some people don't understand simple English

"by the end of her 2nd term" does not mean "not until the 2nd term"

[MethuenProgressive]

2. He's going to ask all the "corrupt, corporate Democrats in fixed and rigged DC" to help him.

He's been so nice, why wouldn't they? :shrug:

[Tellurian]

3. As a Clinton supporter, I'd really like to know..

why an Edwards supporter would be holding back on pertinent info stating how Edwards can get his plan passed sooner than Clinton..Are the caveats mentioned above some sort of punishments Edwards has concocted the Insurance industry will look favorably upon because it is designed to punish people if they are not in compliance with Edwards Plan?

[CTyankee]

11. I understand your point but I have a question about HRC's health care plan.

My daughter and her husband pay no further taxes at tax time due to their tax deductions. He is a musician, she is unemployed and they have a child with a disability. They are currently paying their mortgage from a small inheritance he received. How will they get help paying for health care under HRC's plan? Is her idea "refundable" tax credits, meaning they get a certain amount in a "credit" to spend on health care?

In terms of "penalties" for opting out, does HRC have a better way than garnishment of wages, such as working it through the payroll taxes which starts at dollar one out of one's paycheck? I opted out of Medicare Part B because I have other coverage which is cheaper and covers more but otherwise I would have had a penalty when I do sign up for B. What some people don't realize is that Part B's monthly cost is taken out of your monthly Social Security check and if you opt out you pay more when you eventually sign up (which I will have to do after my spouse retires).

[cuke]

24. Answers

1) it depends on their income. If it's low enough, they will get Medicare for free. If it's a little higher, they will receive tax credits which will reduce their weekly tax payments. if it's too high, then they will have to buy insurance because they won't be able to claim it's unaffordable. Also, under Hillary's plan, the premiums will be limited to a (as yet undefined) precentage of their income

2) Clinton has not specified the penalties for non-compliance but I would imgaine they will be similar to what is done whenever someone defaults on a financial obligation.

Also, Medicare Part B is pretty clear when it comes to the penalties for late signup. Most of the advertising for it stresses the need to sign up for Medicare Part B before the penalties kick in.

[CTyankee]

33. Thanks for clarifying. That sounds good, which is why I like HRC's health plan.

A further point about Medicare is that nobody can opt out of paying payroll taxes which support Medicare. So that seems to be a good place to introduce her program to those choosing the new, expanded Medicare health care insurance. I would expect that there would be public service campaigns similar to what you mention, for the private insurance programs.

As I see it, most people will probably want their employer's health care insurance. But in the case of people like my son in law, who is essentially self employed as a musician and whose deductions eat up all of the taxes he owes, there would have to be a mechanism whereby the tax credits are refundable. Otherwise, his premiums could be a real stretch on their budget. Part of the problem is that they live in L.A. where his work and his contacts are. Affordable housing in L.A. is a joke. Consequently, a very high percentage of his income goes to pay the mortgage. It is totally out of whack!

I hope Hillary has a good plan on affordable housing in this country. I am feeling pretty good about her, and Obama as well, right now. IT will depend on whether our Dem president will also have a strongly Dem congress. I am hopefully optimistic...

[liskddksil]

4. Easy enough

If within nine months of his first year, Congress doesn't pass universal healthcare, he goes to the American people and says that Congress and his administration should lose their healthcare and uses his power of the bully pulpit to rally the people.

[Tellurian]

6. Yes, I noticed Edwards is rife with Wild Eyed accusations..

that may cause Civil Riots or worse blood in the streets as a diplomatic solution to his ineptitude as a leader.

[liskddksil]

7. sometimes you cannot be nice and diplomatic

This is one way to do something about a horrific situation in that we do not have universal healthcare but the people who represent us do. We have to rip their power away from those who reap all the benefits, because they will not give it up themselves. People are looking for a real leader to give our Democracy back to the American people.

[donilo]

12. I sense fear in the air from Clinton supporters

The differences between Clinton's and Edwards' health plans is not very large. To spend time arguing about who's going to get it passed first is weak speculation at best. To try to make that a deciding issue is to diminish the debate.

Where the HUGE difference lies is that Edwards (don't be fooled by his nice guy personality - he's won many a tough, tough battle in the courtrooms with lots of corporate lawyers' guns smoking) is going to DO something about corporate lobbyists and their control of the government. Clinton will do everything she can to keep them doing just what they're already doing.

It's not even close in my book. Clinton is more republican than democrat. She shows progressive here and there, but at her base I sense she leans more "conservative." Edwards is no flaming liberal, but anyone who's willing to take on the corporations, and with the track record of success he has doing just that, gets my vote. He and Kucinich are the ONLY, ONLY, ONLY two who will do that. I'd love to see Kucinich in, but my gut tells me that the reality of the situation is such that Edwards has a better chance.

Let's see how these polls look if Edwards wins or places a strong 2nd in Iowa.

Getting at the Corpor(ate) Greed is the heart of the issue in this election IMO. Everything else stems from it, often directly.

Regards,
donilo

[cali]

16. Sorry, I trust

Senator Edwards about as much as Senator Clinton. His record is more conservative than hers and his hedge fund activities in 2005 were a HUGE turn off for me.

[Tellurian]

23. Hardly Fear.. Wanting "Clarity "is the upshot to the misinformation passed by the Edwards camp..

And I guess you are not any more help in clarifying issues than your supporters in common with you.

"Where the HUGE difference lies is that Edwards (don't be fooled by his nice guy personality - he's won many a tough, tough battle in the courtrooms with lots of corporate lawyers' guns smoking) is going to DO something about corporate lobbyists and their control of the government. Clinton will do everything she can to keep them doing just what they're already doing."

What a joke...every lawyer is a lobbyist lobbying for his client..and paid to do so..


"It's not even close in my book. Clinton is more republican than democrat. She shows progressive here and there, but at her base I sense she leans more "conservative." Edwards is no flaming liberal, but anyone who's willing to take on the corporations, and with the track record of success he has doing just that, gets my vote. He and Kucinich are the ONLY, ONLY, ONLY two who will do that. I'd love to see Kucinich in, but my gut tells me that the reality of the situation is such that Edwards has a better chance."

Thanks for posting more misinformation.. Hillary falls right in behind Ted Kennedy in her voting record..

http://votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=55463

[donilo]

30. I'll respond to this one now ...

because I've got to go.

"What a joke...every lawyer is a lobbyist lobbying for his client..and paid to do so.."

Yes, of course a lawyer is a "lobbyist." But that label takes on quite a different dynamic when corporate lobbyists pay favors, etc. etc. to ensure that legislation is put forward to make sure the corps. pockets get padded. In our legal system, defending a victim of corporate negligence (just take the case Edwards sites re the girl and the drain) is at the essence of our democracy - protecting those who can only find justice through court action. To equate that with what the DC lobbyists do is fatuous.

Your cynicism approaches the kind of "include all" bile that makes up racist (for example) epithets ... "They're ALL the same." I'm not calling you a racist, understand, but it's exactly the same kind of "argument" they use.

Edwards will fight lobbyist CONTROL of our government. There are actually some good lobbyists; after all many progressive causes use lobbyists to make sure they get heard. Unlike you, Edwards will be selective, and put his efforts where they count.

As for your adherence to wanting to argue about who will do it faster - I refer you back to my statement about that kind of speculation hardly contributing any worthy content to the debate. Sure we can go back and forth as in a school yard fight - He will too! No he won't!. Ah yes, invigorating arguments, no matter how many fancy words might be used to disguise those simple "nyah, nyah", shouting matches.

Well I guess I'm covering everything, so now to Clinton's voting record. I won't argue with you on that one - I imagine you're correct about that information, and I apologize for generalizing. However, I don't back down for a minute about her SUPPORT of the corporate system that is in place. It's obvious from her funding, and she's also said it outright in so many words.

For me, this is THE defining issue in this election - how will we CHANGE the system, not how will we maintain it.

Well all this should be sorted out within a matter of weeks. Actually, that's kind of sad, isn't it - that the window for "making it to the nomination" closes so soon after the process begins.

Regards,
donilo

[cuke]

31. And yet, you totally fail to make your case

"Yes, of course a lawyer is a "lobbyist." But that label takes on quite a different dynamic when corporate lobbyists pay favors, etc. etc. to ensure that legislation is put forward to make sure the corps. pockets get padded. "

You can't identify one "favor" Clinton has done for any lobbyist. If you're going to cry "quid pro quo" it would help if you were to identify the "quo"

"Well I guess I'm covering everything, so now to Clinton's voting record. I won't argue with you on that one - I imagine you're correct about that information, and I apologize for generalizing. However, I don't back down for a minute about her SUPPORT of the corporate system that is in place"

And yet, you can't identify even one vote in which her "SUPPORT of the corporate system" differs from Edwards "SUPPORT of the corporate system". I think supporting the Bankruptcy Bill was "SUPPORT of the corporate system", yet the "non-corporate supporter" Edwards voted for it, while the "pro-corporate" Clinton opposed it.

[Tellurian]

34. No, it's warning shots of Napalm...Don't mess with Hillary!

[Forkboy]

37. Napalm is the fun part!

[zulchzulu]

8. So a Hillary supporter is attacking Edwards on his mandated healthcare plan...

At least he has said how he would implement the mandate. Hillary says she'll whisper it to us later after she moves back into the White House...

:rofl:

[cuke]

10. So you can't answer the question?

It seems Obama supporters can't answer factual questions even when it's another candidate

[Dawgs]

13. Who cares?

BTW, read this article. It's a good read if you want to see where Hillary's campaign is at right now.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=washingtonstory&sid=anRcoLyfN0VM

[cuke]

14. I care about Universal Health Care. Obama does not

and neither do his supporters

[zulchzulu]

18. If you want Hillarycare that is doomed to fail AGAIN, good for you

The fact that she wants to put the poison pill of mandating healthcare insurance proves that she wants to do exactly what she did before when she had her chance....FAIL!

Open your eyes.

[cuke]

22. Even Kucinich supports mandates. So does Obama

Single payer is a mandate that forces people to buy insurance from the govt

Opposing govt mandates is a republican position. Progressives have never opposed govt mandates that benefit the nation as a whole.

Do you oppose the SS mandate? Republicans do

Obama's plan also includes a mandate. I guess mandates are wrong, except when Obama says they're OK

[GreenArrow]

21. other than Kucinich and Gravel

none of them care about universal health care, which is why there are offering the half assed plans they've proposed.

[cuke]

26. Wrong, DK is proposing a universal mandated insurance plan

Medicare does not provide health care. It pays for it, just like insurance. You pay a premium for Medicare, just like insurance. If the service is not covered, Medicare will not pay, just like insurance

[K Gardner]

19. You just hit the nail on the proverbial head. n/t

[K Gardner]

15. He doesn't INTEND to pass UHC. His plan is Universally Mandated Insurance.

Complete with IRS garnishments, wage garnishments and collection agencies for those who don't "sign up". Big difference. Terminology is deceptive, and important.

[cuke]

27. So is Kucinich's

What will Kucinich do if someone doesn't pay for their Medicare? Send them a puppy?

[Clark2008]

17. I didn't know he was proposing Universal Health Care...

None of them are, save Kucinich. They're keeping insurance companies in the mix, which is far from what the people want.

[cuke]

20. Wrong, Medicare is also an insurance plan

Medicare doesn't provide health care. It provides coverage that pays for health care. Just like insurance - you pay a premium, and they pay your medical bills (for covered services)

[K Gardner]

25. Medicare is single-payer universal healthcare. Period.

You really need to get your facts straight.

[cuke]

28. I posted facts. You didn't

1) Medicare doesn't provide any health care

2) You pay a premium for Medicare - just like insurance

3) Medicare limits what is covered - just like insurance

4) Medicare won't pay for what is not covered - just like insurance

5) When you check into a hospital, and they ask for your insurance provider, you give them your Medicare card.

[KansDem]

29. Use Bushita-like tactics...

Keep ranting on about "my way or the highway..."

Use the ol' "You're either with us or against us" line...

Call any GOP dissenter "unpatriotic"

Use the ol' "You lost, get over it!" line...

Use the newly-established, greatly-expanded domestic spying procedures to gather dirt on all your critics, in and out of government, and threaten to smear their reputations if they didn't go along with your plan...

Use the corrupt judiciary to harass those citizens who oppose you.

I mean, this is war!

To quote that great revolutionary Newt Gingrich, We will cooperate, but we will not compromise!

[Occam Bandage]

32. He'll do exactly what Bush did with Social Security privatization.

Propose an enormous change in federal entitlement programs, attempt to ram it through Congress, appealing to the people in order to overcome resistance. The opposition party will hold its ground, there will be a huge advertising war, and, lacking a clear mandate either way, Congress will stall. The plan will not pass. Edwards will be regarded as a lame duck from that point forward.

[Beaverhausen]

35. Do you ever post anything positive about your candidate?

All I see is bashing others. You aren't doing her any favors you know.

What you should be doing is trying to convince people why she would be the best cnadidate. Can you give that a try?

[Tellurian]

36. Do you ever criticize your candidate?

you know he's a very bad man. Look up his Voting Record. Then you'll know what we know!

[Forkboy]

38. Do you?

Or is that a gun in your pants?

[gmudem]

39. What about Hillary's voting record?

You know the one where she supported the war just as much as Edwards, and let's not forget that whole Kyl-Lieberman thing. I don't think the Democratic candidate for president should hold the same views about Iran as neo-cons, don't you?

[Beaverhausen]

40. Just as I thought. You have nothing positive to say about your candidate

Color me surprised. :eyes:

[Tellurian]

41. This thread is about Edwards duping the public..

Why bring up Hillary...Theres nothing in the OP stating compare and contrast Hillary w/Edwards..

[Renew Deal]

43. Between Edwards and Clinton

you have no right to criticize.

[Renew Deal]

42. Tellurian is just depressed that his candidate isn't willing to do health care in her first term.

She's going to wait until the second term when she can't take a political hit for it.