The Clinton resisters

[babylonsister]

The Clinton resisters

NOT SWAYED: Clara Oleson, a 65-year-old retired lawyer, says Hillary Rodham Clinton “seems to feel she needs to be a social male — aggressor, commander in chief.” Oleson prefers Barack Obama.
There are women who for varying reasons are put off by the Democratic front-runner. But most say if she's the nominee, she'll get their vote.

By Robin Abcarian, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
December 7, 2007

On paper, they look an awful lot like Hillary Rodham Clinton. They are professional women of a certain age -- politically active Democrats, liberals, unabashed feminists who remember what it was like to be told they could not become firefighters or university department heads, let alone president of the United States of America.

They are women of accomplishment who have bumped up against glass ceilings, sometimes breaking them, while managing marriages, raising children and trying to make the world their version of a better place.

They have waited a long, long time for a plausible female presidential candidate. You'd think they'd be rushing to support Clinton. But they can't stand her.

"She leaves me cold," said Sidonie Smith, who chairs the University of Michigan English department. "I hate to say that. It's a very strange feeling to have."

Like her husband, former President Clinton, Hillary Clinton has inspired highly mixed emotions over the years. For the political right, she has served as a protean symbol of everything wrong with Democrats and feminists.

For upscale women on the left -- historically her toughest crowd -- negative reaction has been more nuanced. Polls show that blue-collar women see her as a defender of their economic interests. But their well-educated upper-middle-class sisters, who aren't as worried about job security, feel free to judge her as they would a peer. She has recently gained substantial ground with this constituency, but polls continue to show that fully half of college-educated Democratic women do not support her.

The reasons vary. For many, it's visceral. While they struggled to break through institutional barriers in the workplace, Clinton hitched her star to her man and followed him to the top. When his philandering imperiled his political career, she not only pulled him out of the fire but helped orchestrate attacks against his accusers.

more...

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-antihillary7dec07,1,3128888.story?coll=la-headlines-nation&ctrack=7&cset=true

[Pirate Smile]

1. The photo accompanying the article

NOT SWAYED: Clara Oleson, a 65-year-old retired lawyer, says Hillary Rodham Clinton “seems to feel she needs to be a social male — aggressor, commander in chief.” Oleson prefers Barack Obama.

and some more:

"For others, the anger they feel is purely political. Some are disappointed by her support of the Iraq war, her reluctance to take stands on some hot-button issues or the fact that she has re-created herself as a centrist.

'Sanctimoniousness'

In an essay in the November issue of the Atlantic Monthly, Caitlin Flanagan wrote that she was put off by Clinton's "sanctimoniousness." She wondered why "so many of the most liberal and educated women are ambivalent about Hillary?" Flanagan's answer: By sticking with a husband who has mistreated vulnerable women -- for the sake of her marriage, her child and her ambition -- she has made herself complicit in his unsavory behavior, and diminished the very best parts of herself.

On the Huffington Post blog, Nora Ephron described "Hillary resisters" (and she is one) as women who disapprove of her tendency to triangulate, deplore her position on the Iraq war and "don't trust her as far as you can spit."

In the spring, University of Michigan communications studies professor Susan J. Douglas wrote an essay for the liberal journal In These Times called "Why Women Hate Hillary." And in an interview with LA Weekly last May, Jane Fonda called Clinton "a ventriloquist for the patriarchy with a skirt and a vagina."'


Wow. Those are some strong feelings and words.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. Some Parts Of The Self Acclaimed Liberal Elites Don't Like Hillary

They can cry me a river and vote for Mike Huckabee in the Fall..

[Pirate Smile]

4. If you read the article they all say they will vote for her if she wins the nomination.

"If Clinton becomes the Democratic nominee, the Hillary holdouts said their objections would melt away. Keeping a Republican out of the White House will become the paramount concern for Democrats, Hillary-resistant or otherwise.

As 83-year-old Mori Costantino of Iowa City put it, "If Hillary is nominated, I will hold my nose as I do with everybody else and support her. I've been doing that for years."'

[Tesha]

6. And we do so love being called "Self Acclaimed Liberal Elites".

You can, in turn, cry me a river when Her Hillariness
loses the General Election. But don't you dare claim
that nobody warned you.

Tesha

[elizm]

58. Hillary can't lose in the general election...

Because she is not going to win the primary!

[babylonsister]

11. So unless everyone agrees with you, they're wrong? I. Don't. Think. So. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. Did I Say They Were Wrong?

Right or wrong depends often depends on context...

[Colobo]

20. Liberal elites? What the heck is that?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. Self Professed Philosopher Kings And Queens Who Are Disconnected From The Rest Of The Society

That's who the heck it is...

[bvar22]

40. "Liberal Elite" ?

I'm a Dirty Hands Working Class UNION LABOR man.
My mother is a Dirty Hands Working Class UNION LABOR woman.
My wife is a Dirty Hands Working Class UNION LABOR woman.
None of us are happy with the Clinton Record on LABOR and Working Class issues.
Are we "Liberal Elites"?


*Hillary will protect the top 6% from paying a more fair share of FICA (refuses to Raise the Cap).

*Hillary will expand Free Trade.

*Hillary will expand the Imported Low Wage Foreign Worker Program. (H1B)


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[yodermon]

42. why would they vote for Mike Huckabee?

:blink blink:

[Whisp]

15. what Jane Fonda said! o my!

Jane Fonda called Clinton "a ventriloquist for the patriarchy with a skirt and a vagina."'

for me, the best definition of Hillary yet.

[truedelphi]

44. Sorry to be LOL. This is very serious. Not a big Fonda fan, but how true.

And the more I laugh, the harder it will be to hold my nose and vote for her.

She is very angry angry angry.

And I think part of it is that she did put up with Bill and what not - her pride was put aside while she did what she needed to do to be a good political wife and to continue the ride on his coattails to the Senate.

I also dislike how she lets the audience know that she will be a strong leader - who like Bush, will make our choices for us. And the last YouTube I saw of her - in which she went on about her being the only Dem candidate with a plan for Health Care - if she believes what she was spewing, she is deluded. If she doesn't believe it, she is lying. And the message she got across to me, is that it is a corrupt society and that we have to accept that only by paying obeisance to the corrupt insurers -well all grown ups in the discussion feel that is the way to go. (Or so say she.)

When Dennis Kucinich gets around to the leadership part, he lets us know that he will be making decisions that have references to what we are thinking and saying. That to me is leadership.

[BeyondGeography]

51. That's the kind of material you had out there before the writer's strike

[Kucinich4America]

54. Jane's analogy needs a slight correction.

The ventriloquist is the one who pulls the strings and supplies the words. To make Jane's analogy work, the patriarchy would be the ventriloquist, and Hillary would be the "dummy".

[LoZoccolo]

2. "For many, it's visceral."

Maybe they should find out whether or not it's due to their own patriarchal tendencies before they go blab to the L.A. Times. Maybe they are subjecting her to sexist expectations of women.

[babylonsister]

5. And maybe they just don't like her. It could be 'that' simple. It is with me. nt

[monmouth]

8. "Don't trust her as far as you an spit" pretty much says it for me...n/t

[Blue_In_AK]

69. Right on, Sister.

My sentiments exactly.

Liberal elite??? :rofl:

Is this author of this piece the same woman who was on Hardball yesterday?

[Cameron27]

7. The LA Times went looking for a story

about women who don't like Clinton, and as incredible as it seems, they found some.:eyes: This hit ... "Clinton hitched her star to her man and followed him to the top" tells me where their mindset was when they started the story. Bill & Hill were a team from the start, but with or without him, she would have been a force in politics.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. Exactly

How to write an opinion piece by your community college journalism instructor...



Come up with an argument, find people who support your argument, cite them in your opinion piece , and, presto, you have an opinion piece...

[Capn Sunshine]

25. Not exactly

but those from the "Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated" school of political thought have a problem with nuance.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. Ha

I could write the same article except my thesis would be uber successful, highly educated women like Hillary Clinton...

[rurallib]

9. Well the Clara Oleson cited in the story is a very good friend of mine

And I can vouch that the story on her is quite accurate. Just called her and told her that her picture was there. Thanks.
Clara has told me more than once that she worked her whole life so that a woman could have a legitimate shot to be president. "And this is what I get?" She is probably one of the most insightful persons I have ever met.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

21. I could not agree with Clara more. nt

[Whisp]

32. Clare is correct...

and THIS is what we get?

no thank you!

[chaumont58]

48. Isn't life just the shits?

"Clara has told me more than once that she worked her whole life so that a woman could have a legitimate shot to be president. "And this is what I get?""

God damn it, if the dumb ass world has just asked Clara "Barton" who should run for president, the world would just be better off!

I worked all my life to get where I am, 70 years old. And this is what I get?

[rurallib]

61. Excuse me for relating a story!

Edit to add - this seems like a very personal insult and I know not why. Clara is a person to be admired. She has been in the trenches on women, gay and union issues for well over 35 years. I felt that this experience could give her some credibility in expressing her opinion.
Guess not huh?

[laugle]

63. Who the heck is Clara?? She sure doesn't

represent me!

I'm 55, well educated, worked in the trenches for the ERA, abortions rights, equal pay in the workplace, etc., etc. And I am one of millions of women in the boomer generation who support and admire HC.

Geez.....Clara....one women's opinion doesn't mean squat to me....no offense to her, she is entitiled to her opinion!

[rurallib]

67. I shan't post in these ridiculous forums again.

Sorry for relating a personal story. I just thought it was neat that I actually knew someone who hit the bigtime news.
I will see y'all after the primaries. Then if Clinton is the nominee it may take some persuading to get me to vote for her. Before yesterday I was 'I will vote for any Dem'. Now I don't know. Sometimes I feel like I have entered freerepublic.

[IndianaGreen]

68. You see, just as Argentina had its Evita Peron cult

the USA has a Hillary Clinton cult.

Remarkable similarities between the Perons and the Clintons. Both rose to power on the basis of a populist appeal, yet they governed for their wealthy backers. Both were power hungry and corrupt to the core.

[chaumont58]

71. I support Hillary Clinton, but I am not a cultist

then again, I didn't vote for Ralph Nader in 2000, or any other year.

[IndianaGreen]

74. So why do you support the war and rape of Iraq, and an attack on Iran?

These are Hillary's positions, together with her support of Bush's police state and gulag, not to mention her support of Israel's racist policies towards the Palestinians.

Hillary is an agent of more of the same in the Middle East.

[chaumont58]

72. It has been my experience that these boards are not for the faint hearted.

People type things they would never say in polite society. You expressed an idea, or pointed to an idea. Good for you. That's what these forums are for, the exchange of ideas.
You shouldn't take it too personal.

[Captain Hilts]

13. Ah, the classic, "she's not acting like a woman in politics should..." "Aggressive!" nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. Ha

What do Golda Meir, Indira Gandhi, Margaret Thatcher, Gloria Macapagal Arroyo,Megawati Sukarnoputri , and Angela Merkel all have in common beside their gender and office?

[Captain Hilts]

26. Same thing said about Eleanor Roosevelt, Katharine Hepburn, Bette Davis....nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. And Lauren Bacall, Jody Foster, ...

DSB

[Captain Hilts]

47. Yep. Any woman that is not a dormat. nt

[saracat]

66. Well unfortunatelt for Hillary, this is a damned if you do or don't. She can be considered a doormat

for putting up with serial infidelity or be considered a warmonger for her stances on Iraq and Iran. It is not a black and white situation. Best not to go there.

[OHdem10]

16. This is some of the silliest analysis I have ever seen.

Are our more educated women this shallow, I do not think so.
Maybe a few.

[chaumont58]

17. This article ought to be on Newsmax, not the LA Times

What bullshit. In two election cycles, I find my lukewarm support for a Clinton is boosted by finding so much bullshit heaped on the Clintons by supposedly well-informed, well meaning fools.
The article says:

"Clinton hitched her star to her man and followed him to the top. When his philandering imperiled his political career, she not only pulled him out of the fire but helped orchestrate attacks against his accusers."

Can anyone tell me what the fuck these two sentences mean? What bullshit!

[Renew Deal]

18. "Clinton hitched her star to her man and followed him to the top."

In other words, Hillary is a celebrity candidate. She's famous for being famous.

[KoKo]

23. She's "famous for being famous." That's an interesting point.

One that I think some of us would agree with. Simply stated.

[Adelante]

19. I'm glad to see this story for one reason

There is a misperception about Obama's base, sometimes fostered by Clinton's campaign statements, ("they all look like they're 18"), that second wave feminists belong to her. I'm here to say that is not the case. I'm older. I'm white. I'm liberal left. I'm a feminist. I make my political choices my own self. I'm for Obama for President. Even if I don't agree with all of the reasoning presented in the article, I'm glad to see my peer group represented as Obama supporters.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. Respectfully That's Obama's Base

Liberal elites... I don't say it to be pejorative... They are progeny of the folks who supported Adlai Stevenson in 1952, 1956, and 1960, Eugene McCarty in 1968, George McGovern in 1972, Frank Church and Mo Udall in 1976, Gary Hart in 1984, Paul Tsongas in 1992, Bill Bradley in 2000, and Howard Dean in 2004... That might be a bit of an oversimplification but I think I captured the big picture...

Senator Obama's challenge is to expand on that base...

[XemaSab]

39. I think I'm dialed in pretty well with the liberal elite

and I've seen a lot of support for Edwards out there too.

I think it's an oversimplification that the liberal elite/college student crowd (horrors!) is for Obama.

Oh, and on edit: who can forget Streisand's support of Hillary? :shrug:

[Indy Lurker]

24. For me it's an issue of trust.

It's not a matter of Intelligence, It's not a matter of capability,

I just don't trust her.

I can't even say why, she just seems too calculated.


Have there been any polls that address whether people trust her?

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Laurab]

28. Did you miss the "politically active Democrats" line? n/t

[Renew Deal]

29. That's obscene

Is yuor intention to insult our fellow Dems? I know good Democrats that support Obama and others. And politically, Hillary is the most "republican" of them all, so maybe you should look in the mirror.

[paulk]

30. Hillary has been very calculating in her run for President

it's almost as if she's gone out of her way not to appeal to the women cited here...

Mainstream America doesn't like the Nora Ephrons and Jane Fondas of this world - something the HRC campaign is very aware of.

Mainstream America is who elects Presidents....

[hedgehog]

36. Mainstream Americans = Silent Majority?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. The Funny Thing Is They Really Exist

They turned out in droves in 1972 and 1984 and gave our party the biggest shellackings in American electoral history...

Adroit politicians like Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton were able to get enough of them to our side to win...

[paulk]

46. Nixon won with the 2nd largest margin of victory

in our history -


so I would say, yes - the two are the same. It's easy to forget that when perusing DU and the lefty blogosphere. Unless a Democratic candidate can attract these voters they will lose.

[Catherine Vincent]

35. So they don't support Hillary, who gives a fug except Obama supporters.

Add this one to the bunch:

[formernaderite]

38. my wife is one of those ...except

she can't be swayed on Hillary. I'm not sure I can either...I've spent the last few months disengaging myself from this race, cause it started looking like a coronation. I honestly don't know what i would do in the general if she gets the nomination...doesn't really matter cause I live in a majority dem state...but you have to wonder how it will effect the races in other states, if some of us stay home.

[asdjrocky]

41. We meet these women everyday-

We talk to them in Iowa, we meet with them in Nevada.

Hillary does not have a lock with women.

[AtomicKitten]

43. I think voters are starting to realize she isn't Bill.

[hedgehog]

49. Give it a few years, and voters will realize that Bill wasn't Bill! nt

[BeyondGeography]

52. That line deserves some props

:thumbsup:

[saracat]

45. Thank you for this babylon sister.When I posted my feelings about Hillary and my neighbors,

as well as my mother's, I was mocked, ridiculed and called names.It is nice to see my "anecdotal"' history with this same type of woman backed up in print. The Oct.Issue of More magazine also has an article dealing with the dislike of professional women for Hillary. Some of us just don't like her or her voting record.Some of us do not see her as "qualified"'.It is as simple as that.

[Perry Logan]

50. All resistence to Hillary is entirely irrational.

The anti-Hillary folks admit over and over again their opposition is based on personal animosity, like Hillary stole their wallet or something.

[Kucinich4America]

55. What is entirely irrational is the idea

that being first lady qualifies a person to be President.

Also, given the last 40 years of history, it's also fairly irrational to believe ANY senator will be elected President.

[MadHound]

56. You obviously aren't reading for comprehension pal

If you did you would realize that a lot of opposition towards Hillary is entirely due to her hawkish stance on the Iraq war, on Iran, and her cozying up to entirely too many corporate interests.

But hey, it's easier to do broadbrush smears and dismiss legit criticism:eyes:

[bvar22]

57. Her husband DID steal my wallet.

Thanks, Bill.
I'll just say "NO" to more of the same.



"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[bonito]

53. Hillary and Lieberman are neocons, most here know it.

[Evergreen Emerald]

60. B.S.

[bonito]

62. Read it and weep

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1534

[Evergreen Emerald]

64. "Obama throws support behind Lieberman"

HARTFORD, Conn. --U.S. Sen. Barack Obama rallied Connecticut Democrats at their annual dinner Thursday night, throwing his support behind mentor and Senate colleague Joe Lieberman.

Obama, an Illinois Democrat who is considered a rising star in the party, was the keynote speaker at the annual Jefferson Jackson Bailey Dinner.

.....

Some at Thursday's dinner said that while they were pleased with Lieberman's success in bringing Obama to Connecticut, they still consider Lieberman uncomfortably tolerant of the Bush administration. Obama wasted little time getting to that point, calling it the "elephant in the room" but praising Lieberman's intellect, character and qualifications.

"The fact of the matter is, I know some in the party have differences with Joe. I'm going to go ahead and say it ... I am absolutely certain Connecticut is going to have the good sense to send Joe Lieberman back to the U.S. Senate so he can continue to serve on our behalf,"

http://www.boston.com/news/local/connecticut/articles/2... /

[IndianaGreen]

73. Spare me the Clintonian spin! Bill Clinton also campaigned for Joe Lieberman

And Hillary Clinton has been a staunch ideological ally of Joe Lieberman, even after he left the Democratic Party.

The problem with the Clintons is that they have the same penchant for lies and half-truths as the Bushes.

America will be better off by getting rid of both its imperial houses, the Clintons and the Bushes!

[calteacherguy]

59. I still remember years ago when the idea of a Hillary Presidency was first brought up

at work. A teaching colleague of mine reacted so viscerally: "I'll NEVER vote for that woman!" I think for her it was her standing by Bill through the whole Monica thing. I think she felt she used her husband. I remember being somewhat shocked at how much she couldn't stand her.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

65. I USED TO like Hillary. No, seriously. I did.

Back in 1992, my colleagues saw her being First Lady as one of the advantages of a Clinton presidency.

But given her Senate record and her propensity to buddy up to the rich and powerful (Rupert Murdoch? eww!), I see her as Not What We Need at this moment.

We need someone who is bold enough to set this country on a course correction away from the cliff that it's headed for. Hillary and the other DLC candidates are too timid and too in thrall to corporate and military interests to do more than slow the rush toward the cliff from 60 mph to 30 mph. Maybe they'll even lay down an old mattress at the bottom of the cliff. But they won't veer away from the cliff by

1) Getting the hell out of Iraq

2) Cutting the Pentagon budget back to reflect our actual defensive needs instead of trying to imitate the ancient Romans with bases in dozens of countries

3) Restoring the Constitution and affirming that the Bill of Rights applies to every human being on U.S. territory or under U.S. control

4) Taking the profit motive out of health care. Single-payer would be ideal, but opening up Medicare to all ages so that ins. companies would be forced to compete with it could be an intermediate step

5) Creating living-wage blue collar jobs by building mass transit and intercity high-speed rail and affordable housing and repairing the nation's infrastructure. Paying for this with the cuts in the Pentagon budget.

6) Removing the cap on FICA assessments.

7) Removing all preferences that allow wealthy individuals or corporations to be taxed at a lower rate than working stiffs.

This is just a sampling of what needs to be done to get this country back on track. I'd be surprised if Hillary did any of it. Her record and speeches indicate that she's in no hurry to get out of Iraq, blathers on about "a strong defense,"and is too trustful of the insurance companies.

[Blue_In_AK]

70. I used to like her, too, LL...

Not so much anymore.