Obama: pro choice only because women are prayerful

[FreeState]

"The reason that I have make a decision to support the choice position, is not because I dont think its a moral issue, but because I trust women to make a prayerful decision about this issue."

http://pageoneq.com/news/2007/Obama_Hospital_visitation_for_gay_spouses_is_not_a_special_r_1121.html

Obama made this statement to the 700 Club on November 9th (see link above for video). What about women that are not prayerful - should they not have a right to make medical decicisons with their doctor because they do not take part in a religious activity? Should there be a religious/spiritual test one must pass in order to make their own medical decisions?

This one really bothers me, Obama stated it is "The Reason" he is pro-choice - can't support that because all women, no matter what they believe should be able to make decisions about their body - because its a human right and a privacy right - not because someone trusts your going to pray about it.

[MadMaddie]

1. Oh dear....why is he pandering to the religous right....

I am having a problem with any candidate trying to court any religious faction in this country. He just keeps stepping into it.....sigh...if that is the only reason he supports it....then he shouldn't support it at all.

[MethuenProgressive]

79. I had no idea Obama was a closet Christian Dominionist.

Anyone considering voting for Obama should read up on these people:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/7235393/the_crusaders/

Meet the Dominionists -- biblical literalists who believe God has called them to take over the U.S. government. As the far-right wing of the evangelical movement, Dominionists are pressing an agenda that makes Newt Gingrich's Contract With America look like the Communist Manifesto. They want to rewrite schoolbooks to reflect a Christian version of American history, pack the nation's courts with judges who follow Old Testament law, post the Ten Commandments in every courthouse and make it a felony for gay men to have sex and women to have abortions. In Florida, when the courts ordered Terri Schiavo's feeding tube removed, it was the Dominionists who organized round-the-clock protests and issued a fiery call for Gov. Jeb Bush to defy the law and take Schiavo into state custody. Their ultimate goal is to plant the seeds of a "faith-based" government that will endure far longer than Bush's presidency -- all the way until Jesus comes back.

[creeksneakers2]

149. Is that an ad hominem attack?

:sarcasm:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

2. He was on the 700 Club when he said that

Yes, the "prayerful" part was a sop to the viewers of that show. But what he's saying is that he trusts women to make the decision. That's good enough for me and this atheist gives him a lot of credit for going into that lion's den.

[FreeState]

7. Thats not how I read it

he did not say "because Im on the 700 show I will say the reason I support it is because I expect women to be prayerful". He said he expects women to be prayerful and thats why hes pro choice - if he has different answers for "the reason" he supports anything depending on whom he is speaking to I have even bigger issues with that!

BTW Im agnostic and sorry - his answer does not cut it for me.

[Dawgs]

11. No, he said he trusts woman to make a decision(choice).

That sounds like he's pro-CHOICE to me.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

40. No, he's acknowledging the beliefs of most Americans

Whether you and I approve or not, the majority of people in this country (Obama included) subscribe to religion and pray on a regular basis. It's only logical to infer that the majority of women who get abortions believe in a deity and that many will pray to it for guidance when making such a big life decision. There's a strong probability that at least a few of the evangelical women who watch the 700 Club have had to abort pregnancies for medical reasons. Or maybe even for non-medical reasons. Maybe his statement was reaching out to them.

Obama is hardly the first Democratic candidate to make references to religion when talking about abortion.

[loyalsister]

147. Agreed

I can take prayerful as a synonym for thoughtful. He was speaking to his audience and not giving the usual bs.
Instead of distancing himself from the opinion with the safe, legal, rare statistics, he invested himself and said I trust women.

[Dawgs]

3. I think you're trying too hard. He never said it wasn't a human or privacy right.

He just said that he trusts woman to pray about the decision.

[Radical Activist]

8. way too hard.

Does he really have to be so guarded that the use of one word like prayer gets spun into something ugly?

[Vickers]

4. That's weird...I'm pro-choice because IT'S NONE OF MY FUCKING BUSINESS.

Oh, and I don't have a womb (and never did).

[Dawgs]

6. And, that is exactly what Obama said. 'I trust woman to make the right decision'.

[Vickers]

9. Does he now have, or has he ever had, a womb?

:P

[theredpen]

210. I have a womb!

It's in my wife right now, but she says I can have it when she's done with it.

[FreeState]

10. No he said "I trust women to make a prayerful decision about this issue."

you can leave that one word out all you want - go watch the video he said PRAYERFUL.

[Dawgs]

16. It doesn't matter what words he uses. He's still pro-choice.

You might hate religion and prayer; I don't.

[Vickers]

19. Just because someone doesn't *need* religion doesn't mean they HATE it.

But hey, you knew that.

[Dawgs]

23. So, then why do we care what Obama says, or believes, as long as he's pro-choice?

[Vickers]

89. You're mixing two different things. I *do* care that he is pro-choice.

I don't give a fuck what his religious views are.

I do find it odd that it seems from the quote above that he feels that religion is required for a medical decision.

[karynnj]

50. In context, it seems to me "thoughtful, moral" etc

When I first started to write, I intended only to say "thoughtful", a word that almost everyone would be comfortable with. Then I realized that prayerful - even if you don't pray - has connotations that there is at least some level of serious contemplation. It is not a trivial decision.

This is an attempt to reach out to the middle WITHOUT giving up the right for the woman to make the decision - prayerful or otherwise. It will not move any one issue voter, but the question is are there people who are maybe personally against abortion who can except that there is any room for a pregnant woman to make that decision. (My guess is that the problem on this issue is not one of framing - I suspect that the people who vote based on this issue have a pretty black or white view of the issue. (Consider in 2004, John and Teresa Kerry were likely more personally troubled by abortion than most Democrats were and they were both church going Catholics - yet they lost votes on the abortion issue.)

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

148. The word "prayerful" has no synonyms in context

On the 700 Club "prayerful decision" refers to a decision influenced by a living God, said influence being enhanced through the medium of prayer. To a person who thinks she has a personal relationship with a living God mediated through prayer it has no other meaning.

And Senator Obama knows that very well.

[puebloknot]

135. "I trust women to make a *prayerful* decision!

You could pray and still make the wrong decision, according to fundie zealots. Who gets to decide?

I like Obama right up to the point where he turns into an evangelical point man. He's too close to them. We need to maintain separation of church and state.

[Radical Activist]

5. He trusts women to make their own decisions.

You have to be trying really hard to spin that into a negative thing.

[FreeState]

12. Thats not what he said

want to watch the video again? He said " I trust women to make a prayerful decision about this issue."

[trotsky]

14. I think the spin is when you ignore one key word in what he said.

PRAYERFUL.

[Dawgs]

18. Why does the word 'prayerful' matter? It still makes him pro-choice.

[trotsky]

49. What if the woman isn't religious?

And why isn't it her decision WITHOUT any modifying words?

[Didereaux]

13. its befinning to look like Obama really had his sights set on being a goddam preacher!!!

said he wanted to be gods mouthpiece in So Carolina and said that the Kingdom was possible here on earth. Fuck it, the world has enough goddam preachers already!

[Cameron27]

15. Sorry,

I don't pray when I make my decisions. Obama gave a seriously bad answer IMO.

[calteacherguy]

20. But he was speaking to people who do, in that particular audience.

His response was not intended for everybody. If he was speaking to a mixed group, I'm sure he would not give the same response. His response was directed to them personally.

[Colobo]

26. The only people falsely offended by this

are those that are looking for reasons not to support Obama.

[FreeState]

29. Thanks for reading my intentions - your super smart!

</sarcasm>

[Colobo]

I'm smart enough to understand what Obama is doing.

[trotsky]

52. Yes, and so are we.

It's a 9-letter word that starts with "p" and ends with "andering."

[Colobo]

56. Pandering would have been to tell fundies

That God told him to fight to ban abortion and then tell us liberals that he is pro-choice.

[trotsky]

62. No, that would be covered under other terms.

Such as "talking out of both sides of his mouth" or "lying."

This is just Obama once again assuming that everyone is a believer in gawd, and playing down his support for abortion in order to appease fundies.

[Colobo]

67. He's telling them his pro-choice in language they understand

it's making them comfortable with the idea of being pro-choice. It's what every liberal politician should try to do.

[trotsky]

86. 'Cept for those non-believing women,

or those whose beliefs don't include the concept of prayer. Fuck 'em.

[loyalsister]

150. Uh oh

You forgot that some of those non believin women can understand that language is vague and flexible in the world of politics.
Some of us are smart enuff to not take everything so literally.

[trotsky]

151. Good for you.

Guess you had better correct your fellow non-believing women on this thread.

"language is vague and flexible in the world of politics"

Or, in other words, Obama says what people want to hear. Used to be we didn't admire that sort of thing in a politician.

[loyalsister]

153. Please

What do you think campaigns are?

Even the earliest campaigns.
The whole point of going around and talking to people was salesmenship. Telling them what they want to hear so the candidate gets their vote.

There's a book called "The Tyranny of Words" 1938 where the author talks about his worries about how new mass media- radio is going to influence consumerism and politics.
He looks at salesmanship semantics and analyzes it in political speech.

That's all they've been doing for a very long time. Advertising and sales. With consultants it has increased. That is the simple reality.

It's not a matter of admiration. It's a matter of how language works in the modern world.

[trotsky]

165. And Obama's been doing it since the beginning.

Took him a long, long time to commit to any definite "Here's what I will do" statements - and even now those are few and far between.

If you like equivocating, Obama seems to be your candidate. And like I said, his supporters appear to be willing to bend over backwards to spin it as a positive thing.

[Cameron27]

I absolutely hate comments like that.

He lost my vote when he allowed McClurkin to MC his gospel tour, and I wasn't looking for ways not to vote for him.

[Colobo]

41. I had to say it

because I don't see what the problem with Obama's strategy is. He's appealing to both liberals and fundies without compromising his liberal values.

[Cameron27]

51. No you didn't have to say a few of the things

you've said in this thread. I don't care what his strategy is; It's my body and my choice alone.

[Colobo]

57. Great, and Obama is pro-choice.

I don't see where the problem is.

[femrap]

65. If he became Prez,

he would be eaten alive by the Repugnants. The man has no fight in him...he likes compromise and getting along. I wonder if he realizes just how far gone our Democracy is...we are on the precipice of Fascism and he is talking about being full of prayers.

Sorry, but at this time in our history, we need a person who is willing to fight for our Constitution and our Democracy....put those neocons and those that supported them in a very tight straight-jacket so they can no longer damage our country.

[Colobo]

70. No, at this point in time

America needs a unifying figure, a leader of all Americans, someone that can show how close we all are ideologically and not a divider like the one we have in the WH right now.

Obama is what we need.

[femrap]

85. Read 'Conservatives Without

Conscience' by John Dean...those folks will NEVER unify with sane people.

The Corporations, the holy rollers, and rich will eat him alive. I don't want to be unified....I want my Democracy back. I want my Constitution defended. I want someone able and willing to FIGHT for this nation. I don't want a Mr. Nice Guy. The South won't vote for him.

I guess you don't see how far our nation has fallen or the great danger we face....and the financial collapse is upon us. We'll be lucky to be able to vote next November.

[cali]

76. this post is nonsense but anyone who can't see that it's in response

to the equally bullshit posts about Clinton, is being willfullly obtuse. And if someone is supporting those threads, and indignant here, they're being a hypocrite as well. And no, I'm not accusing you of doing that.

[Cameron27]

81. I'm not quite sure what you're saying

but this: "I dont think its a moral issue, but because I trust women to make a prayerful decision about this issue." is offensive to me, especially when it comes out of a man's mouth.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

101. No equivalence, Cali

Obama's belief in his power to heal the nation by lying to both sides cleverly enough about "values" is a pattern and practice, central to his candidacy. (His supporters concede as much, though they use different terms to describe the same approach.)

It is my chief objection to him, and an issue that goes to governance, not just campaign rhetoric. It's as valid as a person's chief objection to Clinton being a given matter of policy.

On the other hand, there is no pattern and practice (or even hint) of Hillary Clinton pandering to those who want to replace the constitution with the Bible, let alone believing it.

[Bluebear]

152. Yes, gays and women just are looking to pick a fight with Obama

:eyes:

I'm glad Obama has a friend in you, because you certainly don't stand with gays or women. All you do time and time again is apologize away for your candidate.

[silverweb]

163. Bingo!

You nailed it, Katz!

Some of the non-religious synonyms for "prayerful" are: ardent, deep, earnest, fervent, genuine, intense, passionate, profound, serious, sincere, meditative, introspective, musing, pensive, philosophical, reflective, and thoughtful.

Every one of those words substitutes well for "prayerful" in what Obama said, and he unabashedly supported every woman's right to make her own decision.

That is NOT "pandering" and no amount of malicious parsing by the opposition will change that.

[Cameron27]

31. It seems to be a trend with Obama

and I don't like it. Whether it's a gospel tour MC'd by a homophobic singer, his "kingdom here on earth" comments or this, I don't want to hear this crap out of a Democratic presidential condidate.

[Tellurian]

178. "Obama said he has no use for Baby Boomers", He said, "he will not prosecute the WH Criminals"..

The constant drone of the Obama apologists telling us "Obama is what we need" and "Obama will heal the country" are not and never have been loyal thinking/voting democrats. They are a scurrilous bunch who voted for Bush twice, Green Party rejects, Naderites or RWingers without a home adulterating the true path of Democrats. I'm sick to death of hearing it!

[Lucinda]

84. So he changes his message depending on who is listening?

[trotsky]

119. Precisely.

And his devoted followers not only think this is a wonderful thing, but that those of us who call him on it either hate him, religious people, the progressive agenda, or all of the above.

[calteacherguy]

17. It seems to me that since he was speaking to a religious group, that is an appropriate answser.

Obama has said on many occasions we are NOT a Christian nation, or even a religious nation, but in that case he was speaking to people who do pray, so the response was natural and appropriate.

[FreeState]

21. Even though he said it is "the reason" he is pro choice?

If he states it THE REASON it cant be a different reason depending on the group he is talking to - not unless you have a serious pandering issue.

[Dawgs]

22. Again, why does it matter?

[FreeState]

24. It matters because he is saying he expects all women to pray

about it. Thats highly offensive to me - sorry If I don't think anyone should tell me or the women in my life they need to be prayerful in order to have a medical procedure. He said the the only reason he is pro choice is because he expects women to be prayerful.

[Colobo]

28. Dude, he's talking to religious people. He's making choice appealing to them.

Isn't that smart?

[FreeState]

35. No because thats not what he is doing.

he said THE REASON - unless hes changing THE REASON depending on whom he is talking to. Try to spin all you want for Obama but he was not selling anything - he was explaining his position.

[Colobo]

39. He is courting the religious vote

and making his liberal positions compatible with their faith.

[calteacherguy]

44. What's wrong with that being his reason? I don't understand your problem with this. nt

[calteacherguy]

32. He never said that! He was talking to a religious group! nt

[calteacherguy]

45. What?! He never said that! nt

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

106. The implication is that if he concluded women were less prayerful than he had thought it would

have a legitimate nexus with their right to choice.

It does matter WHY people think what they think. The fundies who want to send military aid to Israel to hasten the final destruction of Israel to hearken the second coming may not be Israels best friends in the long run. Motives are legitimately subject to analysis.

[calteacherguy]

27. I don't understand why this matters at all.

The point is he is pro-choice. I don't understand why what he said here is an issue at all. It certainly isn't for me.

He believes abortion is morally wrong. He believes women who are believes will pray about it. Women who are not religious obviously won't...that's not his concern, because he's pro-choice anyway.

He believes in the separation of church and state. He was simply taking to a religious group here, and there was nothing wrong with acknowledging that.

[Colobo]

33. It doesn't matter. It's just cheap criticism.

[Colobo]

25. Obama IS SELLING CHOICE TO THE RELIGIOUS CROWD!!!

How come some people are either so anti-Obama or so obtuse not to see what he's trying to do? I'm agnostic and I think he's fuckin' brilliant.

[calteacherguy]

34. Great point! nt

[Cameron27]

43. Screw that.

I'm not obtuse, and I'm not anti-Obama, but I am a woman, and I don't need anyone to insinuate that I need to pray over my choices. I don't care what his intentions are, it stinks.

[calteacherguy]

46. He never insinuated that. He was talkking to a religious group.

Don't be so obtuse.

[Cameron27]

55. Well thank you

so much. Rude comments are what I've learned to expect from some DUers. I know why, where and when he said it.

[Colobo]

53. Dear seasoned

I honestly believe you are taking this way too far. Of course, it's your right and choice to do so, but I think you you are suspicious of Obama with no real reason.

[Cameron27]

58. Dear katz,

you can think whatever you like. I told you the first time that Obama started using religious statements that I didn't like it, and it's only getting worse.

[Colobo]

60. But, how can we make things happen in this country

if we don't make a huge percentage of it, fundies, comfortable with progressive ideals?

[Cameron27]

68. Fundies are fundies,

they won't accept abortion because a woman prays over her decision. The tent's big, but it's not big enough for homophobes, racists, or whaco religious extremists.

[Colobo]

77. It's about moving our progressive agenda forward

We need to make fundies feel comfortable with it.

[Cameron27]

83. No we don't,

and no we can't.

[cboy4]

202. Bingo.

:thumbsup:

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

95. In the OP Obama is quoted as doing one of two things...

He was either:

1) saying something he absolutely does not believe in order to bamboozle 700 Club viewers, or...

2) saying what he really does believe, which would make him a pretty horrible person. (One doesn't oppose censorship because he trusts authors to gain God's guidance and write acceptable books, or oppose slavery because he trusts black people to be sufficiently prayerful to make the best use of their freedom. There is no place in American political thought for an analysis of a right in terms of the relative faith of affected parties. No American can gain or lose a right by virtue of the nature of their relationship with their Deity.)

I doubt Obama is a bust-out religious nut, so am willing to assume that he really didn't mean a word of what he was saying.

The problem is that he seems to have no concept of the limits of pandering... on the decency of things. It is one thing to take a pandering stand on ethanol (as almost everyone does every four years) and quite another to take such a bold pandering stand on deep matters of faith. It is insulting to secularists and insulting to the faithful.

[trotsky]

103. Absolutely spot on, K&H.

It's been a problem of his this entire campaign. But of course those of us who point it out are just "haters," so whatcha gonna do.

[knitter4democracy]

115. Prayer means thinking hard about something to most evangelicals.

He wasn't saying he thought you had to pray over it, he was saying that he trusts women to make the right decisions for themselves.

In evangelical-speak, prayer is substituted for deep critical thought. When someone prays over something, they sit down and think over all of the various ways of looking at it, think of what's right for them and their moral code, see if they can hear God's voice on it (very, very rare, actually--it's usually just a feeling of what the right thing to do is), think about it some more, and then come to a conclusion. Oh, they'll say that God told them to do this or that, but what they really mean is that they thought long and hard about it and came to their own conclusion.

He just used their code to say that women can be trusted to make the right decisions for themselves and their bodies. Pretty radical in that setting.

[Bluebear]

157. You said it, sb, nt

[BeyondGeography]

54. DingDingDing...we have a winner

Funny how Dems are so dug in against faith talk that they rebel against it even when it's used to expand support for the things they believe in.

Then again, this is the party that has an unparalleled ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

59. Thank you!

I'm as atheist as it gets and I approve 100% of the way Obama is reaching out to the faithful. That statement he made on the 700 Club had to make a reference to prayer or it would have fallen on deaf ears.

[jefferson_dem]

75. But ... but. ... but ... he didn't use the "proper" language in justifying his pro-choice position.

Ugh...

[mrreowwr_kittty]

100. On the 700 Club no less!

I suppose they'd be happier if he said something more like: "I'm pro-choice and if you Bible bangers don't like it you can FUCK OFF!" :eyes:

[depakid]

197. He shouldn't have been addressing them in the first place

It only legitimizes and enables the quacks and frauds- when they OUGHT TO be marginalized and relegated back to the fringe, where they belong.

This kind of deal, one can't chalk up to rookie mistakes.

[knitter4democracy]

112. That's exactly what he did--and I'm pretty impressed.

The evangelicals I grew up with would listen to something like that and maybe even think about it some more. He's saying that he trusts women to do what's right for them, and that's awesome!

[Tellurian]

179. Because we're not as easily duped as his moon-blind, loyal supporters are..

We never helped put Bush in the WH nor did we try convincing others he was the people's choice. We voted for Gore.

[ClarkUSA]

186. He's the smartest man in the room when it comes to selling liberal values to the uninitiated.

And yes, anyone who doesn't see that is either obtuse or anti-Obama.

[Karmadillo]

30. What part of the Constitution requires women to be prayerful?

nt

[calteacherguy]

37. What does that bizzare question have to do with the OP?

He was speaking to a religious group, not all Americans.

[Karmadillo]

87. The right to choose is protected by the Constitution. Whether a woman is prayerful or not is

irrelevant, at least until Obama becomes President.

[calteacherguy]

146. What do you mean, "at least until Obama becomes President?"

Obama is Pro-choice, whether or not women pray, obviously he knows not all do!

You aren't making any sense!

[bunnies]

36. This isnt a big deal to me

and Im an atheist.

[stuartrida]

38. That bothers me less than Kucinich's 0% ratings from pro-choice NARAL

prior to him running for president.

[Karmadillo]

42. What if a woman is an atheist and declares she won't pray? Should she still be allowed to choose or

should those who can be trusted to pray be deputized to make the decision for her?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

64. Has Obama ever said that?

Why are you extrapolating that from a comment he made on the freakin' 700 Club!

[Karmadillo]

92. I'm simply asking a question based on what he said. What's his position on insufficiently

prayerful women and the right to choose?

[jefferson_dem]

97. He's pro-choice.

He doesn't propose choice be restricted only to women who have prayed about it.

Did you really need that clarification?

[Karmadillo]

139. How do you know? Do you have a link? Has he specifically said women who aren't

prayerful have a right to choose?

[jefferson_dem]

140. self-delete.

Never mind. You line of (il)logic is simply silly.

Bye.

[Karmadillo]

143. LOL. I wouldn't try to defend him on this one, either.

nt.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

99. I would guess it's that they would have the same right to choose

Albeit un-prayerfully.

[Bjorn Against]

47. Not an Obama supporter, but I think this is an example of parsing his words too much...

The bottom line is he was taking a position in favor of choice and ultimately that is what matters. Now maybe "prayerful" is not a word I would use, but it looks fairly innocent to me and I am an agnostic. There are plenty of things to go after Obama over, but this isn't one of them. He supports a woman's right to choose and if he would have just left out that one word most of his critics on this site would be ok with it. Now maybe that one word was not the best choice of a word he could have made, but I don't think any of us have always used exactly the right words every time we spoke either. If you are going to go after Obama go after him on McClurkin, go after him on his votes to continue funding the Iraq war, go after him for his support of coal power which contributes to global warming, but parsing out a single word in a sentence that you would otherwise agree with is a waste of time. Let's focus on the real battles.

[katandmoon]

48. Obama continues to disappoint me

WTF was he even ON the 700 Club? It's no different from him aligning himself with that phoney ex-gay preacher. It's all to shore up his fundy cred. WTF is Obama to "trust" women to make "prayerful" decisions about ANYTHING?! It's none of his goddamn business, period, what kind of decisions I or any other women make. And sorry, Barak, but I DON'T PRAY. So you are wasting your trust on me, buddy. Sorry 'bout that. Fool.

[Clintonista2]

61. Sad but certainly not surprising. Obama has made it clear who he will fight for

The robertsons and the falwells.

[Tellurian]

180. And they will return the favor by supporting him..

Obama stands for the almighty dollar. Obama is Bush3.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

63. Why would he support choice for atheists?

Atheistic women are certain to not make a prayerful decision

[mrreowwr_kittty]

71. Maybe not many atheistic women watch the 700 Club?

I'm an atheist and I figured it was pretty much a given that I'm not the target audience of the show. Somehow I still understand that Obama supports choice for me, too.

[electron_blue]

66. Frankly I don't care *why* anyone is pro-choice.

[hedgehog]

69. So, he was pandering by coming out firmly for the right to choose

on the 700 Club!

Allow me to translate: the notion that women go out and have casual sex and then just as casually have an abortion is a pure myth. If a woman chooses to have an abortion, she is well aware that she is making a serious decision.

[BeyondGeography]

73. So "prayerful" can have a broader meaning?

Who knew? :sarcasm: :freak:

[Cameron27]

74. self delete

(didn't read your post correctly.)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

78. Ya think? I give him a LOT of credit for doing it

Some DUers would apparently rather get outraged over one word.

[mloutre]

105. [self-delete -- comment placed in wrong place, was not a sub-thread reply]

[jefferson_dem]

72. Lamest supposed criticism ever.

At the least, you don't like the way he framed his adamant pro-choice position.

At the worst, you have manufactured a terribly asinine excuse to criticize a candidate you don't like.

Either way...This is beyond silly.

EDIT: By the way, your subject line is misleading. Nowhere does Obama suggest this is the ONLY reason he is pro-choice.

[zulchzulu]

80. I think he made an excellent point, plus 700 Club watchers will see him as reasonable

Some here on DU think that ALL people who are religious, spiritual or Christian are:

- Republicans
- Homophobes
- Racists
- War mongers
- Stupid
- Not good enough to engage in conversation with
- Hopelessly ignorant
- Anti-choice

They are wrong.

There are many progressive Christians out there that are none of the above. I've met some. There are many that might be homophobic and/or racist who can be taught that it's a stupid way to judge people. Do we shut them off? No. We engage in conversation to change their view.

I'm sure there are many who watch the 700 Club who have gotten emails that Obama is a Muslim, which he isn't (not that there is anything wrong with being Muslim). Without seeing the interview for myself and making an independent judgment sans the usual claptrap I see from some here on DU, I would venture to guess that he made a point of that as well.

The main genius of Obama going on the 700 Club and essentially telling the audience he is Pro-Choice is great for Democrats! Obama has proven with his votes that he is firmly Pro-Choice (as well as for civil rights for all people) over the years.

To point out that he feels that women make the right choice when dealing with an abortion with some spiritual judgment involved seems pretty practical in my view. To complain about such a statement surely shows another agenda trying to be injected into the issue.

[jefferson_dem]

90. Great point, zulchzulu.

The anti-religious bigotry is unbelievable -- conniption fits at the mere mention of the word "prayerful" or at the idea that faith may actually be important to some people.

[Skip Intro]

82. He ties himself in knots with his pandering. It's breathtaking sometimes.

[Lucinda]

91. I don't think he's pandering.

I think it's exactly who he is.
It wasn't pandering to allow Donnie M to speak. It was his choice.
His supporters keep trying to rationalize his actions, but they seem very clear to me.
:(

[cuke]

96. I think it's pandering

and pretty clumsy. He's beginning to sound irrational lately. I guess desperation can do that to the inexperienced

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

145. That's a slander. I would never sink so low as to claim Obama believes the things he says.

[cuke]

185. The sad thing is, when you say it, it's funny

but it's also true. I can't believe he actually believes the things he says. It's easier to think he's just being desperate

[AtomicKitten]

94. Actually he's not budging from his pro-choice position before a

traditionally hostile audience.

That's the OPPOSITE of pandering. In fact, it is the epitome of integrity.

[Ilsa]

88. If he was to restate that with "thoughtful" instead of "prayerful"

I'd be more satisfied. Not everyone feels the need to pray at all.

[Lucinda]

93. Thoughtful was the exact word I thought of as well.

Would have made a world of difference to me.

[Vickers]

102. *Ding!* *Ding!*

Exactly.

[hedgehog]

104. Don't you know a woman has an absolute right to control over her body!

How dare you suggest she needs to think about her choice!

[Cameron27]

107. What are you saying?

A woman does have the right to control her body on this issue, and I doubt anyone chooses this option without seriously thinking about it.

[hedgehog]

144. That was meant to be a sarcastic retort to the poster above

who thought that Obama was demanding that women pray.

[jefferson_dem]

108. Touche.

:thumbsup:

[Colobo]

109. Exactly.

:)

[knitter4democracy]

110. Honestly, that's what prayerful means.

Most evangelicals I know substitute "prayer" for "deep critical thought" in their parlance all the time. They'll say that they prayed over something, but what they really mean is that they sat down and thought deeply about it, going over every angle, and figuring out the right path from there.

I think it's crazy-awesome that he came out pro-choice on the freakin' 700 Club and did so in a way that made sense to their viewers. That's awesome!

[polichick]

98. Definitely playing to the audience...

But they all do it to some degree.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

111. Newsflash for you disingenuous posers with your phony outrage: OBAMA IS PRO-CHOICE!

I can't believe this OP!


Who SERIOUSLY believes that Obama only supports choice for women who are religious? What? Like if he gets elected he's going to ask Congress to pass a LAW stating that women could only get abortions after praying?

WTF? :wtf:

[Cameron27]

117. Newsflash

He's responsible for what comes out of his mouth. If he wants to pander to the religious right, he's going to get called on it.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

118. And you're responsible for what comes off your keyboard

If you want to post nonsense, I'm going to call you on it.

Pandering, my ass. Pandering would be if he went on the 700 Club and pretended to be anti-choice to ingratiate himself. He didn't. He went there and explained why he was pro-choice. He said "prayerful" because he's a religious man, speaking to other religious people, on a religious TV show. Some of the women watching that show may have had abortions, didja ever think of that? Some of them probably prayed about it! Go figure.

[Cameron27]

120. If he's not pandering

it's worse. I don't want a politician, either praying over a decision himself, or preaching that women should do it on this issue. Spare me religious men and their condescension.

Knock off the insults, and stick to the issues.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

123. Well you don't have much of a choice when it comes to candidates then

Every single one of them (except maybe Gravel) professes to be religious. And just because Clinton is a woman doesn't mean she hasn't done "pandering" of her own when it comes to this issue.

[Colobo]

124. Excellent point.

[Cameron27]

129. As long as they're not out preaching

their beliefs, then I don't care how religious they are. Well, I do care, but as long as it doesn't affect how they govern, I suppose it's alright.

What did Clinton say about her religion?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

137. How about this?

Clinton: "With all of this talk about freedom as the defining goal of America, let's not forget the importance of the freedom of women to make the choices that are consistent with their faith and their sense of responsibility to their family and themselves."

http://www.slate.com/id/2112712/

Oh noes!!1! She said 'faith'!!

Seriously, I don't have a problem with what Clinton said there anymore than I have with what Obama said. I'll bet it wouldn't be too hard to find quotes from any of our candidates invoking religion when talking about abortion.

[Tellurian]

183. Senator Clinton's position supports Roe V Wade!

and that is exactly the way it should be. Roe v Wade upholds the Right of a woman to Choose, it says nothing about doing it prayerfully.

http://www.ontheissues.org/social/Hillary_Clinton_Abortion.htm

"Respect Roe v. Wade, but make adoptions easier too."

"Hillary has spoken clearly about the importance of respecting such landmark Supreme Court decisions as Roe v. Wade. Her commitment to supporting Roe and working to reduce the number of abortions reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies. Hillary is one of the original cosponsors of the Prevention First Act to increase access to family planning. As First Lady, Hillary led efforts to make adoption easier and increase support for families in the adoption and foster care system."

[mloutre]

113. I think there's a lot of over-parsing going on here. And I should know.

I remembered finally writing about what's involved in making such a terribly difficult choice here in DU last spring, so I went back and found the link for you:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=694683&mesg_id=694683

I also remembered not addressing the question of prayer in that post, so I went back and checked that too. And no, I didn't address it then. Nor am I going to address it in terms of that extremely painful decision now.

I did make very clear in that post that this is not a decision that was or should be made lightly, shallowly, or without a great deal of soul-searching beforehand and, even more so, afterwards.

Knowing what I do about Mr. Obama, I'm going to assume in the context of these remarks that what he was talking about in that interview was the kind of deep inner questioning that we went through before settling on what we already knew was the most logical choice in a situation where none of the available choices were positive ones.

Mr. Obama has made it clear that he is a man of faith, and I respect him for that. He was speaking to a prayerful audience, so I can understand his answer being couched in those terms. I might have preferred that he had explained his meaning in more detail, but I understand the deceptive nature of quick soundbite quotes so I will not judge him based only on that.

I practice a different faith than Mr. Obama does, but I also don't think his remarks were intended to imply that the choice we made when we were faced with the hardest choice to make was any less valid because of that than it would have been had I been praying to the same God he prays to himself.

We all know what it's like to have those who determine the course of a country making their decisions based on the voices of their gods that they hear inside their heads. And no, I'm not meaning the mullahs in the Middle East, I'm meaning the current administration in Washington.

In this case, I'm going to give Mr. Obama the benefit of well-reasoned intelligence and believe that he was referring to the kind of decision-making process I participated in on that fateful spring day in the 1990's, and not the kind of decision-making process Mr. Bush went through on that fateful day when he decided to unilaterally invade Iraq.

I agree with what I believe to be Mr.Obama's overall position on this one,and I'm not going to get distracted by over-parsing one soundbite quote in this case.

[Colobo]

114. Read prayerful as thoughtful

For many fundies, to reflect on something involves prayer. Obama knows it and used the right vocabulary in front of the right audience.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

132. No fundy in the world equates "Thoughtful" and "Prayerful"

You and I might, but the 700 Club audience surely does not, and Obama knows that.

The right vocabulary you cite is the right vocabulary to deceive, not to communicate.

I don't get this belief that language games can solve real divisions. Language games might win elections, but Obama seems to think they are at the heart of governance, not just cheap political tricks. Like he will be the first one to "fool all of the people all of the time."

[Cameron27]

134. Exactly

[NMMNG]

182. Bingo

Obama knows exactly what he's saying when he throws out those code words, but hopes we don't.

[Tellurian]

184. "Obama extends the presumption of good faith to abortion protesters"

Please tell me where is the "GOOD FAITH" in an Abortion Protester?

To date, how many people have they killed because of imposing their Religious beliefs on others?

Obama's story:

" handed me a pamphlet. "Mr. Obama, I know you're a Christian, with a family of your own. So how can you support murdering babies?"

I told him I understood his position but had to disagree with it. I explained my belief that few women made the decision to terminate a pregnancy casually; that any pregnant woman felt the full force of the moral issues involved when making that decision; that I feared a ban on abortion would force women to seek unsafe abortions, as they had once done in this country. I suggested that perhaps we could agree on ways to reduce the number of women who felt the need to have abortions in the first place.

"I will pray for you," the protester said. "I pray that you have a change of heart." Neither my mind nor my heart changed that day, nor did they in the days to come. But that night, before I went to bed, I said a prayer of my own-that I might extend the same presumption of good faith to others that had been extended to me."

Nothing but muddy convoluted thinking!

[dsc]

116. I think you are reading alot into this

I take prayerful to mean well thought out here.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

121. The 700 Club audience does not equate thoughful and prayerful

[dsc]

133. No they probably don't

but what they think isn't as relevent as what Obama thinks. To the extent his religion influences him on this issue it would tent to make him pro choice as the UCC is pro choice.

[MountainLaurel]

122. So, atheist women aren't allowed to abort in his world

Since they're not praying about it first?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

125. No, they can abort. He just doesn't trust them.

Atheist women are "free-riders" on the prayerful, using a right they haven't earned.

[Colobo]

127. That's why you think? Because that's not what Obama thinks.

[Colobo]

126. Again

The man is talking to a religious audience that considers praying essential when thinking or deciding about somthing crucial.

Why is that so difficult to grasp?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

141. It's not. This 'outrage' is just more manufactured bullshit by Obama haters.

Funny how Obama is the ONLY serious Presidential candidate in my memory who has ever acknowledged the existence of non-believers in a major speech. But let's not let little things like that get in the way of a good phony tirade. :eyes:

[Bluebear]

155. It's so difficult to grasp why he panders so much to religious audiences.

Or maybe it's not pandering, he really is regressive.

[zulchzulu]

166. Yes, Barack Obama specifically stated that atheist women can't have abortions...

:crazy:

Yeah, that's what he said... are you freaking kidding?

[Evergreen Emerald]

128. TRIANGULATION

Yikes, apparently Obama is also a hypocrite .

[Colobo]

130. ?

[Tellurian]

187. Obama should be supporting the "LAW of the Land" not special interest groups!

to curry votes!

[Basileus Basileon]

209. In the best possible sense of the term.

Explaining to a right-wing audience that they can support abortion rights and still believe abortion is wrong? That's the type of triangulation we need more of.

[Tellurian]

222. That could work, presuming the audience is dumber than the person doing the selling..

[AtomicKitten]

131. He doesn't budge from his pro-choice stance in front of a traditionally hostile audience

... and that is deemed pandering by some here?

That is the precise opposite of pandering. It's called integrity.

[rocktivity]

136. Obama can "trust" women to make the right reproductive decisions all he likes

as long as he ensures that reproductive choice remains available.

:headbang:
rocknation

[XemaSab]

138. It's his way of saying HE TRUSTS WOMEN TO MAKE THEIR OWN MORAL DECISIONS.

N/T

[Lex]

142. Wow, really? That's big of him.

n/t

[Bluebear]

154. So, women need to pray about this, and gays can pray away their orientation.

And we can all build a "kingdom on earth" with the "audacity of hope". Holy moly.

[Tellurian]

189. Exactly my thinking..

You will not hear that correlation coming from his most strident supporters. They are doing everything in their power to sweep this issue under the rug from public outcry, just as they did with his pandering to Evangelicals promoting a bigoted Gospel Singer's appearance.

What do these two issues have in common? FUND RAISING!

[ecstatic]

156. He said the appropriate thing for the audience

to hush up prejudiced hypocrites.

[jillan]

158. Agreed! How are we going to win people over to our way of thinking if we don't speak their language

This is such a non-issue!

[gmudem]

159. Are you guys actually debating this?

I'm not an Obama supporter but holy crap are people really this desperate to bash any candidate? What a waste of time.

[Bluebear]

161. "Holy crap" is right.

[Skittles]

160. I detest this f***ing religious shit

:puke:

[Bluebear]

162. Just what we need to cleanse the palate after Bush.

:crazy:

[krabigirl]

227. Moi aussi.

[Irreverend IX]

164. Does any politician really take their Jesus shit seriously?

Obama's conversion to Christianity was rather convenient, politically. I think he assessed the potential for political success as a Muslim following in his father's footsteps and put two and two together. And Bush doesn't attend church anymore now that he doesn't need to court the evangelical rightwingers. Some political figures, like Ashcroft and Huckabee, do seem to have genuine religious beliefs, but they rarely get any real influence. I can't bring myself to have any respect for politicians who spout crap like this to make religious robots vote for them.

[DrFunkenstein]

167. This Is Why The Country Is Going to The Toilet

Politics has been driven into the most absurdly cynical activity known to man thanks to people who love cheap "gotcha" quotes contorted into all kinds of bizarre meanings which have nothing to do with reality.

Seriously, do you really think that Obama is enforcing prayer and excluding women who don't participate in the act. I really have to question your sincerity, because I'm afraid what else I'd have to question if you are sincere.

This is exactly the kind of whiny bullsh*t that makes liberalism the clusterf*ck that it is today.

I thought the handful of people around here that insist Obama is homophobic were bad, but this is an altogether new level of ridiculousness.

If you don't support someone that is fine, but trumping up this kind of BS is totally unnecessary and really gives liberalism a bad name.

[FreeState]

173. Since when is it cynical to question ones motivation? n/t

[zulchzulu]

168. Let's not get Barack Obama's pristine pro-choice record get in the way of a childish bashing

The anti-choice people give him a 0% rating. The pro-choice people give him a 100% rating. Let's see the spin on these facts from the half-wits who try to trash him here...

Senator Obama supported the interests of the NARAL Pro-Choice America 100 percent in 2006.

Senator Obama supported the interests of the Planned Parenthood 100 percent in 2006.

Senator Obama supported the interests of the National Family Planning & Reproductive Health Association 100 percent in 2005-2006.

Senator Obama supported the interests of the National Right to Life Committee 0 percent in 2005-2006.

Senator Obama supported the interests of the NARAL Pro-Choice America 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Obama supported the interests of the Illinois Planned Parenthood Council 100 percent in 2003.

Senator Obama supported the interests of the Illinois Planned Parenthood Council 100 percent in 2001.

Senator Obama supported the interests of the Illinois Federation for Right to Life 0 percent in 1997-2000.

Senator Obama supported the interests of the Illinois Planned Parenthood Council 100 percent in 1997-1998.

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=9490

[Tellurian]

192. Obama demonstrates once again his weak leadership ability..

"In the Statehouse, Obama promoted himself as a defender of abortion rights, but he encouraged fellow Democrats to vote "present" on abortion bills. Friends say the strategy was designed to protect lawmakers, including Obama, with designs on higher offices."

Now we know why. He didn't want to be on record pinning him down, otherwise he wouldn't be able to pander to the Fundies!

Obama is one cold calculating individual.

[zulchzulu]

220. So being rated 100% by pro-choice groups doesn't matter to you...

In case you didn't know, 100% is the highest the rating level goes.

[illinoisprogressive]

169. Obama has always seen women as strong and equal. simple

[zulchzulu]

170. What the OP didn't point out about the linked article to trash Obama...

The main story was how Barack Obama was talking about visitation rights for gays:

"How would Jesus feel about somebody not being able to visit somebody they love when they're sick?" the Senator asks. "Certainly, as a public official," he continues, "it's important for me to make sure that those basic rights--that basic equality--is available."

I didn't watch the interview yet, but I seriously question the spin that the OP has.

[FreeState]

171. You might want to watch the video before you cast judgement on me

That spin you see in the article if from the site that wrote the article - the video is almost 90% about Abortion - I can get you a link to the 700 clubs version if that would help you.

Oh and I wasn't trashing Obama - I was questioning his reasoning - thats what thinking voters are supposed to do in the primaries - its something I do with all the candidates, including those I plan on voting for. There is nothing wrong with talking about issues you have with any candidates IMO thats how you find out who you feel comfortable supporting.

[zulchzulu]

176. I saw what you wrote and many others have pointed it out as well

You seem to have a problem with people being "religious". You also seem to want to paint Obama as some kind of religious zealot who thinks abortion is OK for women as long as they pray or whatever.

His record stands for being firmly for women's rights. He's proved it, he's rated 100% in support on women's choice issues and he'll continue to be that way despite those that don't appreciate his efforts.

There is "discussing" the issues and then there is cherry-picking a quote for some kind of distorted view not based with honesty or the truth.

Good luck.

[FreeState]

193. What are you talking about?

You have no idea about me - here is a clue - see my pic on the left - guess what that is - and then tell me I have something against religious people.

I can't believe how many people in this thread would rather attack me for things they know nothing about rather than discuss what Obama actually said.

[katandmoon]

172. HOW WOULD JESUS FEEL?!?!?!

Well, why don't you tell us, Barak? It seems you are just as adept at channeling "him" as your fellow Repug fundies. Dueling Jesuses! Jesii? Spare me.

[troubleinwinter]

212. "I trust women to make a...decision". He "trusts" women, but does not assert their RIGHT to choice.

I find this weak and disturbing, that he bases his opinion on his personal feelings of trust, rather than an unfailing commitment to asserting and defending our rights.

If he's "speaking to his audience", and cannot stand up and clearly commit to defending our rights, I can't use this candidate.

I haven't selected my final choice for candidate yet, except it aint HC, and BO is finally completely off my dance card.

[NMMNG]

174. He's so full of sh*t I can smell him from here

He's trying so hard to suck up to the RW fundie element with the "prayerful choice" code speak, but the very notion of choice will turn them off. And he's tossing aside non-religious people with the notion that the choice must include prayer. And he threw LGBT people under the bus long ago. In the end he's pleasing nobody in his attempts to please everybody while talking out both sides of his mouth.

[Colobo]

190. At least he's not considering Ron Paul as VP choice...

[Bluebear]

201. You said it. nt

[KingFlorez]

175. As long as a person's pro-choice, I don't think the reason they are really matters

He's hardly saying that women who don't take place in religious activity shouldn't have a choice. Way too much is being read into this.

[Hekate]

177. Women are moral agents -- I believe Obama gave exactly the right answer

The right-wingers do not trust women to make adult decisions on issues that affect women profoundly. They frame it as a moral issue.

Men are allowed to make decisions that affect themselves profoundly, they are trusted to with this authority over themselves. If in some cases they are mistaken or come to regret those decisions, then as fully adult men they have options about dealing with the consequences, whatever those may be.

Right-wingers, in their attempts to take away reproductive choice from women, are relegating women to the legal and religious status of children, basically.

What Obama is saying, in this context, is that women are full adults and that they are full moral agents with the inner authority to make such decisions. Why wouldn't a woman pray over something that affects her in this way? Prayer can help.

If a woman is an atheist, she need not pray at all -- Obama is not saying that she must, nor is he saying that prayer is the only approach. He simply grants what right-wingers will not: that a woman is an adult and a moral agent in her own right.

Over the past 30+ years we Democrats and my sister feminists have made a mistake by allowing religious fundamentalists to frame abortion as a religious issue with themselves as the arbiters of what constitutes religion. Our insistance on an exclusively secular stance has acted to exclude women who need spiritual solace regarding their decision to abort -- and if sufficiently troubled, such women find open arms not among Democrats and feminists, but among religious fundamentalists.

I completely endorse Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton's efforts to reach out to the religious community by acknowledging the spiritual dimension surrounding abortion and by acknowledging that reducing the number of abortions is a desirable goal -- as long as they also make it clear that Roe vs. Wade must stand as law and that full access to birth control methods must also be enforced by law.

Hekate
Pro-choice feminist and Democrat (just in case that's not clear enough)

[HuffleClaw]

181. wow, he pulled a hilllary.

straddling the fence so carefully. i'm impressed

[Hippo_Tron]

188. He's pro-choice, why does it matter what is reasoning is?

[Colobo]

191. Because we want to trash Obama no matter what.

[Tellurian]

194. Obama's only reasoning is to say whatever he needs to say to get elected

[Hippo_Tron]

195. And the point of politics is to get elected

Successful candidates say what they need to say to get elected.

[Tellurian]

198. And the point of a voter is to disseminate facts attributing inconsistencies in their stances..

<<"Successful candidates say what they need to say to get elected.">>

That old school thinking worked before the advent of the "internets."

[depakid]

196. Pandering to the 700 club....

Jeeze.

The man loses more and more of my respect every day. I'm actually begining he may just be a one term senator.

[JVS]

199. Would you prefer he said "There is no God, but I want to ban abortion anyway"?

:shrug:

[FreeState]

200. No I prefer he supported a women's right to choose because our constitution

mandates it, not because of his or anyone else's faith - I want a leader who stands strong on personal rights because its the right thing to do - not because they feel someone will approach their personal medical decision with a faith in god. There is nothing wrong with being religous - there is however something wrong when one predicates their belief for all women on their religious faith.

[killbotfactory]

203. This is just stupid

Jesus christ.

[Basileus Basileon]

204. The reason he's pro-choice is that he trusts women to consider it deeply,

and as such does not believe that matters of personal morality should be legislated. OMG SCANDAL.

[Bluebear]

205. Not deeply. "Prayerfully." His words.

[Basileus Basileon]

206. Do you seriously believe that Barack Obama does not trust atheist women?

[Bluebear]

207. No idea. 700 Club. Christian Broadcasting Network. Donnie McClurkin.

"Kingdom on Earth". Heavy on the religious rhetoric and it makes me uneasy.

[Basileus Basileon]

208. Consider the audience, yes.

He's trying to sell the concept of being pro-choice to the 700 Club. As South Dakota recently demonstrated, women's rights can be greatly advanced in the court of public opinion if we present our arguments in terminology that religious people find nonthreatening. Obama is explaining, to a religious audience, that he is pro-choice because he trusts women to make their own decisions. He equates religion with morality, because that is what his audience needs to hear to understand.

Like it or not, religion is a force in American politics. It's been harnessed for evil by the Republicans so often, I think we lose sight of the fact that it can be harnessed for good. If Obama wants to go talk to religious people and explain how left-wing views are compatible with Christianity, good.

[Hekate]

211. Damn I hate this. DUers get a two-fer flame-fest: on a candidate and on abortion.No one is listening

No one is listening to anyone else. There's a few thoughtful posts (and of course mine upthread is ever so modestly one of them) and a whole lot of drooling posturing by DUers who want to hate Obama and DUers who want to make sure that no Democrat even dares talk to a group of socially conservative Christians.

Christ on a trailer hitch.

How do some of you envision a Democrat actually WINNING an election? How do you envision a President actually UNITING the country?

It isn't going to happen if we Democrats refuse to talk to or listen to anyone who disagrees with us.

I am pro-choice. I am adamant about separation of church and state. I am a Democrat.

I am also a religious person. The fact that I am part of a minority religion (very minority) is not the issue. The issue is that I understand that there is a spiritual dimension to all the decisions we make -- including decisions women make about abortion.

I don't care if you don't agree with me about that, I don't care if you think there is no Divine Energy that animates the Universe, but by the Triple Goddess I certainly expect you to respect my point of view, as I do yours.

I can understand the viewpoint of the fundamentalists on some issues. I really, really want them to keep their religion out of politics and government, but I respect their right to believe as they do. I want the theocrats out of US government at all levels, but not all fundamentalist Christians are theocrats, and we need to be able to at least try to communicate with them or we will not be able to bring this country together.

Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton both have solid records on protecting a woman's right to choose whether OR NOT to have an abortion. I believe they are doing the right thing by trying to communicate with and find common ground with social/religious conservatives.

Democrats cannot win without finding common ground to stand on.

Hekate

[mrreowwr_kittty]

217. They'd rather be right than win the election.

That's the sentiment I've noticed from far too many here. I can't believe the number of people who say they'll refuse to vote for the Dem nominee if it's a certain person.

[Mass]

219. So, basically, the 15 % of the country who are not religious have to accept to be insulted and

disrespected in order to win the election?

I will vote for Obama if he is the nominee and somewhat hope he is the nominee, but this does not mean I abdicate my right to be deeply offended by this statement (and others by other Democrats).

We, non religious people, exist and expect not to be rejected in order to win.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

221. I predict you're going to be deeply offended a lot in the upcoming year

Speaking as a fellow non-believer of course.

Which of the frontrunning Dem candidates is non-religious enough for you? Clinton and Edwards also love to tout their sky fairy credentials at every opportunity. All the others (save Gravel) have made the obligatory professions of faith as well. Whether you and I like it or not, religious Americans (fundamentalist and otherwise) are a huge and powerful voting bloc and our politicians are going to try and get votes from them, or at least generate enough good will so that they won't be motivated to vote AGAINST them. Obama has made it clear that he supports separation of church and state and has an excellent record on progressive issues. He went on the 700 Club and told the audience he was pro-choice. You may quibble over the reference to prayer, but I think that was pretty gutsy on his part.

[troubleinwinter]

213. To those who claim "it doesn't matter what his reason is, because he is pro-choice", I say bullshit.

It DOES matter. He did NOT assert the RIGHT to choice... just his personal "trust" in womens' choices.

NOT good enough. I want absolute, unfailing, bold committment to defending our RIGHTS.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

215. What about Obama's voting record doesn't convey that to you?

He has an excellent record on choice.

[mtnester]

214. Sheesh, here is why I will now eliminate him as a candidate who might get my vote

1. That he is too stupid to understand that the fundamentalists, no matter how he coaches the answer to that question, will NEVER vote for him

and

2. He is too stupid to understand that the fundamentalists, no matter how he coaches the answer to that question, will NEVER vote for him


Even I, political non-animal that I am, know that.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

218. Not necessarily. John Kerry got 20% of the evangelical vote in 2004

"According to surveys of voters leaving the polls, Bush won 79 percent of the 26.5 million evangelical votes."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32793-2004Nov7.html

20% is not a majority by any means, but it's not NEVER either. Barack Obama may not capture many of their votes but by reaching out to them, respectfully, he is generating good will in that community and they may be less driven to get out the vote against him as they would with oh, say, Hillary Clinton.

[Mass]

216. Why not thoughtful? Why do they need to put religion in everything?

[Tellurian]

223. Agreed..and why do we have to help Obama build the Kingdom of Heaven

on Earth under his direction. Obama disrespects the Seperation of Church and State AND Roe v Wade.

[rateyes]

224. OMG....Let's throw him under the bus for using the word

"prayerful." Calling all Democrats: "USE A RELIGIOUS WORD OR UTTER THE WORD 'GOD' AND YOU ARE NO LONGER WORTHY TO BE A CANDIDATE. :sarcasm:

He's PRO-CHOICE, and he said he was pro-choice in front of an audience that is primarily anti-abortion.

Grasping at straws, you are.

BTW, I'm not voting for Obama...but, this is just silly.

[Imagevision]

225. Well it's one thing Obama and Giuliani agree on so we've got that out of the way...

[Odin2005]

226. Apparently the Obama bashers don't get Obama's brilliant framing of the issue.

Either that or the culture warriors are pissed off that Obama rocked the boat by not using the ideologically kosher "pre-approved" framing of the abortion issue of the Boomer culture warrior political establishment. Jesus Christ, he explained his pro-choice position in language the evangelicals understand, WTF is wrong with that? I'm an Atheist, but when I am trying to convince a religious person to support economically progressive positions I appeal to Jesus's teachings to get my point across.

[krabigirl]

228. Yuck. Just yuck. And why the heck was he on the 700 Club??

[Madam Mossfern]

229. To get votes!

Sheesh!
I feel like I'm in an alternate universe here.
Would you prefer that he not get any votes from this group and lose because he was afraid to alienate non-believers? This is Politics...remember?

[cuke]

230. Are there any rightwing memes Obama won't repeat?

He's getting worse than the repukes