Hillary: I will not lie

[denem]

(Forgive the ponderous tone - I'm addicted to platitudes)

An interesting article (to say the least) turned up in the Wall Street Journal today. Under the title THE END GAME- Clinton Hits Rough Patch As Iowa Showdown Nears The commentary was as follows:

BALLSTON, Va. -- As Hillary Clinton huddled with advisers not long ago, she was pressed to stake a position popular with the party's left-leaning voters on one issue. But the presidential front-runner resisted. It wasn't her position.

"If I do what you all want me to do, I'll look great for the next couple months," she said, according to one insider's account. "But what if I'm the nominee? I'll be ripped apart by the Republicans. And what if I'm the president? My hands will be tied."

The New York senator's response captured the tension at the core of her 10-month-old presidential bid, and helps illuminate why she has hit a dangerously bumpy stretch as January's first nominating votes near. Sen. Clinton actually is running two campaigns at once -- courting left-leaning Democrats to get the nomination, but mindful even now of maintaining a sufficiently centrist course to withstand Republican attacks and win election next November.

Beyond that, Sen. Clinton views her campaign as a template for her possible presidency. Having witnessed Bill Clinton's early struggles reconciling campaign promises with governing -- and guided by his private advice now -- she knows first hand that what candidates say now for political points can haunt them as president. Close advisers call this caution her "responsibility gene."

This changes the way I see HRC's campaign. The "triangulation", the careful qualifiers, the refusal to be pinned down, speak not of prevarication, nor cynicism, nor poll driven anything else but honesty. "The responsibility gene" is a refusal to deliberately misinform voters.

Promises are serious business. They tie the hands of a President. They must not be made lightly. Here lies Hillary's ducking and weaving. A more cynical would say something expedient. You can always change it later. But Hillary intends to keep her promises.

To be fair most of the democratic field fit his mold. The surprise is that the very things Hillary is most of criticized for, speak of the same basic honesty.

[dkf]

1. Maybe its because she doubts she can get much done.

I think that is true and that is why we can't afford her as President.

I look back at the Bill Clinton years and I think it was a waste of time. Yeah they were ok caretakers, but not very visionary.

[denem]

2. I don't understand n/t

[Perry Logan]

5. Here are some highlights of Bill Clinton's record. This WILL be on the final...

The awesome Clinton record:

longest economic expansion in American history--a record 115 months of economic expansion
More than 22 million new jobs: more than 22 million jobs were created in less than eight years -- the most ever under a single administration
Highest home ownership in American history
Made the Federal government smaller (a feat matched only by Harry Truman; if you like small government, vote Democratic)
Lowest unemployment in 30 years: unemployment dropped from more than 7 percent in 1993 to just 4.0 percent in November 2000; unemployment for African Americans and Hispanics fell to the lowest rates on record, and the rate for women was the lowest in more than 40 years
Largest expansion of college opportunity since the GI Bill
Connected 95 percent of schools to the Internet
Lowest crime rate in 26 years.
Family and Medical Leave Act for 20 million Americans
Smallest welfare rolls in 32 years
Higher incomes at all levels: after falling by nearly $2,000 between 1988 and 1992, the median family's income rose by $6,338, after adjusting for inflation; all income brackets experienced double-digit growth; the bottom 20 percent saw the largest income growth at 16.3 percent
Lowest poverty rate in 20 years: the poverty rate declined from 15.1 percent to 11.8 percent in 1999--the largest six-year drop in poverty in nearly 30 years
Lowest teen birth rate in 60 years
Lowest infant mortality rate in American history
Deactivated more than 1,700 nuclear warheads from the former Soviet Union: efforts of the Clinton-Gore Administration led to the dismantling of more than 1,700 nuclear warheads, 300 launchers and 425 land and submarine based missiles from the former Soviet Union
Paid off $360 billion of the national debt: under Clinton, we were on track to pay off the entire debt by 2009; what a difference a stolen election makes...
Converted the largest budget deficit in American history to the largest surplus
Lowest government spending in three decades
Lowest federal income tax burden in 35 years
More families owned stock than ever before
Most New Jobs Ever Created Under a Single Administration: Republicans really chew the rug when you mention this one, so it's worth repeating constantly
Median Family Income Up $6,000 since 1993
Unemployment at Its Lowest Level in More than 30 Years
Highest Home ownership Rate on Record
7 Million Fewer Americans Living in Poverty
Largest Surplus Ever
Lower Federal Government Spending: after increasing under the previous two administrations, federal government spending as a share of the economy was cut from 22.2 percent in 1992 to 18 percent in 2000--the lowest level since 1966
The Most U.S. Exports Ever: between 1992 and 2000, U.S. exports of goods and services grew by 74 percent, or nearly $500 billion, to top $1 trillion for the first time
Lowest Inflation since the 1960s: inflation was at the lowest rate since the Kennedy Administration, averaging 2.5 percent, down from 4.6 percent during the previous administration
The child poverty rate declined more than 25 percent
The poverty rate for single mothers was the lowest ever
The African American and elderly poverty rates dropped to their lowest level on record
The Hispanic poverty rate dropped to its lowest level since 1979
Lowest Poverty Rate for Single Mothers on Record: under President Clinton, the poverty rate for families with single mothers fell from 46.1 percent in 1993 to 35.7 percent in 1999, the lowest level on record
Smallest Welfare Rolls Since 1969: between January 1993 and September of 1999, the number of welfare recipients dropped by 7.5 billion (a 53 percent decline) to 6.6 million. In comparison, between 1981-1992, the number of welfare recipients increased by 2.5 million (a 22 percent increase) to 13.6 million people
Lowest Federal Income Tax Burden in 35 Years: Federal income taxes as a percentage of income for the typical American family dropped to their lowest level in 35 years
Higher Incomes even after Taxes and Inflation: real after-tax incomes grew by an average of 2.6 percent per year for the lower-income half of taxpayers between 1993 and 1997, while growing by an average of 1.0 percent between 1981 and 1993
AGAINST TERRORISM

# PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON developed the nation's first anti-terrorism policy, and appointed first national coordinator of anti-terrorist efforts.
# Bill Clinton stopped cold the Al Qaeda millennium hijacking and bombing plots.
# Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to kill the Pope.
# Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up 12 U.S. jetliners simultaneously.
# Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up UN Headquarters.
# Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up FBI Headquarters.
# Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up the Israeli Embassy in Washington.
# Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up Boston airport.
# Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up Lincoln and Holland Tunnels in NY.
# Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up the George Washington Bridge.
# Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up the US Embassy in Albania.
# Bill Clinton tried to kill Osama bin Laden and disrupt Al Qaeda through preemptive strikes (efforts denounced by the G.O.P.).
# Bill Clinton brought perpetrators of first World Trade Center bombing and CIA killings to justice.
# Bill Clinton did not blame the Bush I administration for first World Trade Center bombing even though it occurred 38 days after Bush left office. Instead, worked hard, even obsessively -- and successfully -- to stop future terrorist attacks.
# Bill Clinton named the Hart-Rudman commission to report on nature of terrorist threats and major steps to be taken to combat terrorism.
# Bill Clinton sent legislation to Congress to tighten airport security. (Remember, this is before 911) The legislation was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the airlines.
# Bill Clinton sent legislation to Congress to allow for better tracking of terrorist funding. It was defeated by Republicans in the Senate because of opposition from banking interests.
# Bill Clinton sent legislation to Congress to add tagents to explosives, to allow for better tracking of explosives used by terrorists. It was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the NRA.
# Bill Clinton increased the military budget by an average of 14 per cent, reversing the trend under Bush I.
# Bill Clinton tripled the budget of the FBI for counterterrorism and doubled overall funding for counterterrorism.
# Bill Clinton detected and destroyed cells of Al Qaeda in over 20 countries.
# Bill Clinton created national stockpile of drugs and vaccines including 40 million doses of smallpox vaccine.
# Of Clinton's efforts says Robert Oakley, Reagan Ambassador for Counterterrorism: "Overall, I give them very high marks" and "The only major criticism I have is the obsession with Osama".
# Paul Bremer, current Civilian Administrator of Iraq disagrees slightly with Robert Oakley as he believed the Bill Clinton Administration had "correctly focused on bin Laden.
# Barton Gellman in the Washington Post put it best, "By any measure available, Bill Clinton left office having given greater priority to terrorism than any president before him" and was the "first administration to undertake a systematic anti-terrorist effort".
http://liberalslikechrist.org/about/clinton.html
ON THE ENVIRONMENT
Bill Clinton issued an Executive Order on Environmental Justice to ensure that low-income citizens and minorities do not suffer a disproportionate burden of industrial pollution. Launched pilot projects in low-income communities across the country to redevelop contaminated sites into useable space, create jobs and enhance community development.

President Bill Clinton sought permanent funding of $1.4 billion a year through the Lands Legacy initiative to expand federal efforts to save America's natural treasures and provide significant new resources to states and communities to protect local green spaces and protect ocean and coastal resources. Won $652 million for Lands Legacy in the FY 2000 budget, a 42 percent increase.

Launched effort to protect over 40 million acres of "roadless areas," which include some of America's last wild places. Dramatically improved management of our national forests with an ambitious new science-based agenda that places greater emphasis on recreation, wildlife and water quality, while reforming logging practices to ensure steady, sustainable supplies of timber and jobs. Balanced the preservation of old-growth stands with the economic needs of timber-dependent communities through the Pacific Northwest Forest Plan.

Adopted a uniform tailpipe standard to passenger cars, SUVs and other light-duty trucks, producing cars that are 77 percent cleaner -- and light-duty trucks up to 95 percent cleaner -- than those on the road today. Set new standard to reduce average sulfur levels in gasoline by up to 90 percent. Once fully implemented in 2030, these measures will prevent 43,000 premature deaths and 173,000 cases of childhood respiratory illness each year, and reduce emissions by the equivalent to removing 164 million cars from the road.

# Approved strong new clean air standards for soot and smog that could prevent up to 15,000 premature deaths a year and improve the lives of millions of Americans who suffer from respiratory illnesses. Defending the standards against legal assaults by polluters.

# Accelerating Toxic Waste Cleanups. Completed cleanup at 515 Superfund sites, more than three times as many as the previous two administrations, with cleanup of more than 90 percent of all sites either completed or in progress. Secured $1.4 billion in FY 2000 to continue progress toward cleaning up 900 Superfund sites by 2002.

# Providing Safe Drinking Water: Proposed and signed legislation to strengthen the Safe Drinking Water Act and ensure that our families have healthy clean tap water. Required America's 55,000 water utility companies to provide regular reports to their customers on the quality of their drinking water.

# Established EPA's Drinking Water State Revolving Fund (DWSRF) that provides grants to States to finance priority drinking water projects that meet Clean Water Act mandates. To date, the DWSRFs have provided $1.9 billion in loans to communities.

# Awarded nearly $200 million in Department of Agriculture (USDA) loans and grants for over 100 safe drinking water projects in rural areas of 40 states. USDA grants and loans target rural communities plagued by some of the nation's worst water quality and dependability problems.

# Expanded Safe Drinking Water Act protections to protect 40 million additional Americans in small communities from potentially dangerous microbes, including Cryptosporidium, in their drinking water.

# Ensuring Clean Water. Launched the Clean Water Action Plan to help clean up the 40 percent of America's surveyed waterways still too polluted for fishing and swimming. Secured $3.9 billion since 1998, a 16 percent increase, to help states, communities and landowners in reducing polluted runoff, enhancing natural resource stewardship, improving citizens' right to know, and protecting public health.

# Strengthening Communities' Right to Know. Strengthened the public's right to know about chemicals released into their air and water by partnering with the chemical industry and the environmental community in an effort to provide complete data on the potential health risks of the 2,800 most widely used chemicals. Nearly doubled the number of chemicals that industry must report to communities, while expanding the number of facilities that must report by 30 percent.

# Expanded the community right to know about releases of 27 persistent bio-accumulative toxins (including mercury, dioxin, and PCBs). These highly toxic chemicals are especially risky because they do not break down easily and are known to accumulate in the human body.

# Secured $83 million in FY 2000 for two major new efforts to restore salmon in the Pacific Northwest: $58 million for the Pacific Coastal Salmon Recovery Fund, which provides resources for states and tribes to protect and rebuild salmon stocks; and $25 million to implement the historic Pacific Salmon Treaty with Canada, which established two regional funds to improve fisheries management and enhance bilateral scientific cooperation between the two countries and provides funding to buy back fishing permits in Washington.
# Expanding Wildlife Refuges. Added 57,000 acres, including lands along the last free-flowing section of the Columbia River, to the Saddle Mountain National Wildlife Refuge to protect salmon habitat in Washington.

# Forging Partnerships to Protect Habitat. Completed 255 major Habitat Conservation Plans (HCPs), compared to 14 before the Administration took office, to protect more than 20 million acres of private land and over 170 threatened and endangered species. These voluntary agreements protect habitat while providing landowners the certainty they need to effectively manage their lands.

# Strengthening Protections for Wildlife. Signed legislation that strengthens protections for wildlife by mandating that the most important use of our nation's wildlife refuges is giving refuge to migratory birds and other animals reliant on this rich system of natural habitat.

Protecting our Oceans and Coasts

# Creating Comprehensive Oceans Policy. Directed the development of key recommendations for strengthening federal oceans policy for the 21st century and appointed a high-level task force to oversee the implementation of those recommendations. Convened a National Ocean Conference in June 1998 that brought together government experts, business executives, scientists, environmentalists, elected officials and the public to examine opportunities and challenges in restoring and protecting our ocean resources.

# Strengthening Our National Marine Sanctuaries. Secured a funding increase of over 100% to better support national marine sanctuaries -- homes to coral reefs, kelp forests, humpback whales, and loggerhead turtles. Supporting the five-year Sustainable Seas Expeditions to explore, study and document ways to better protect underwater resources.

# Preserving Coral Reefs. Issued an Executive Order to expand protection of coral reefs and their ecosystems to address issues of coral reef management, expansion of marine protected areas and increased protections for coral reef species.

# Protecting Marine Mammals. Led negotiations resulting in a multilateral agreement to protect dolphins in the eastern tropical Pacific Ocean. Issued new standards to protect the endangered northern right whale from injuries from ships by instituting a first-ever ship reporting requirement in two areas of right whale critical habitat. Fought for creation of the Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary, an area of more than 12 million square miles off the coast of Antarctica.

# Banning Ocean Dumping of Toxic Waste. Led the world in calling for a global ban on ocean dumping of low-level radioactive waste. The U.S. was the first nuclear power to advocate the ban.

Introduced "Better America Bonds" to generate $10.75 billion in bond authority over five years to preserve open space, improve water quality and clean up abandoned and contaminated properties known as brownfields. Local communities can work together in partnerships with land trust groups, environmentalists, business leaders and others to develop innovative solutions to their community's development challenges.

# Provided leadership critical to successful negotiation of the Kyoto Protocol, which sets strong, realistic targets for reducing greenhouse gas emissions and establishes flexible, market-based mechanisms to achieve them as cost-effectively as possible.

# Investing in Clean Energy Research. Won more than $1 billion in FY 1999 and in FY 2000 for the Climate Change Technology Initiative, a program of clean energy research and development that will save energy and consumers money. Extended the tax credits for wind and biomass energy production through 2001, reducing emissions and reliance on imported oil.

# Growing Clean Energy Technologies. Issued an Executive Order to coordinate federal efforts to spur the development and use of bio-based technologies, which can convert crops, trees and other "biomass" into a vast array of fuels and materials. Set a goal of tripling our use of bioenergy and bioproducts by 2010 to reduce annual greenhouse gas emissions by up to 100 million tons a year -- the equivalent of taking 70 million cars off the road.

# Improving Scientific Understanding. Increased funding for the United States Global Change Research Program to more than $1.7 billion in FY 2000 to provide a sound scientific understanding of both the human and natural forces that influence the Earth's climate system. This record research budget continues strong support for the "Carbon Cycle Initiative" begun last year to improve our understanding of the role of farms, forests, and other natural or managed lands in capturing carbon.

# Energy Efficiency Standards for Appliances. Issued new energy efficiency standards for refrigerators, refrigerator-freezers, freezers and room air conditioners that will save consumers money and reduce emissions of greenhouse gases and dependence on foreign oil. The new standards will cut the average appliance's energy usage by 30 percent and save more than seven quadrillion BTUs of energy over the next 30 years, more than seven times the annual energy consumption of the entire state of Arkansas.

# Promoting federal Energy Efficiency. Issued an Executive Order directing federal agencies to reduce energy use in buildings 35 percent by 2010, reducing annual greenhouse gas emissions by the equivalent of taking 1.7 million cars off the road and saving taxpayers over $750 million a year. Forged new partnerships with industry to develop and promote energy-saving cars, homes and consumer products with the potential to save Americans hundreds of millions of dollars in energy bills and significantly curb greenhouse gas pollution.
http://www.environmentalcaucus.org/gore.html

PS: What about corruption?

Forget about it. As measured by the total number of convictions and forced resignations, Clinton's was the cleanest administration since Teddy Roosevelt.

[denem]

6. What I got from the article was a dertermination

not to repeat the mistakes of 1992 where some of the promises were overly ambitious. I noted Bill's support on this.

[dkf]

9. Like I said...good caretaker

But anything that can be instantly blown up by the next guy seems less significant.

Single payer insurance? That would have been HUGE.

Transition from Oil to Solar or easily accessible Hydrogen? HUGE.

Saving the planet from Global Warming? HUGE.

Healing the Israeli Palestinian rift? HUGE.

It just seems like what we want and need now are way more significant and serious than anything the Clintons' achieved in the past.

Sorry but that is the way I see it.

[denem]

11. Single Payer is not something you would advertise in the Primaries

or the general for that matter. Private health threw $750 million at Jimmy Carter;s proposal in the '70s. If you want to go up against the $15 billion they'd threw now, better get in the White House first.

[dkf]

12. I'm not talking about her current campaign promises

I'm talking about what they got done during Bill Clinton's Presidency. My point is that yes they had this good statistic and that good statistic but they were all incremental, and not at all transformational and that is what I expect she will be able to accomplish.

I simply don't see that she has the leadership skills to move the country as we need to move in order to solve our worst problems.

[dsc]

13. He was one stubborn Palestinian leader away from healing the rift in the ME.

[truedelphi]

58. I am guilty of reporting this before but it is worth re-telling

Lately Bill Clintonhas been fond of saying that he thinks it is time that marijuana be decriminalized.

When the reporter from the SF Chronicle mentioned this, they added as an aside - "but wasn't HE the President for eight years??"

[Alamom]

15. Thank you. I enjoyed reading your post and remembering what

it's like to have a competent person in charge.

[Perry Logan]

19. You're welcome. It's sad to find so many Democrats who know nothing of their own guy's achievements.

The people who most bitterly complain about Bill Clinton would flunk a simple quiz on his accomplishments.

[MannyGoldstein]

16. First Outsourcing Of Torture...

Selling out American workers to Wall Street for "free" trade with China

Selling out American workers to Wall Street for NAFTA

Keeping Alan "Fuck the average American, I'll do anything for Wall Street" Greenspan in office

Selling vital military technology to China, resulting in stuff like this: http://www.rttnews.com/sp/breakingnews.asp?date=11/10/2007&item=51&vid=0

It's true that, compared to Bush, Clinton was Washington, Lincoln, and FDR in one package. But most all of your claims are fairly bogus. For example:

Cleaning Superfund sites usually takes a decade or so - any Superfund site completed under Clinton was almost certainly started under a previous administration. Maybe you can tell us how many new Superfund sites were started under Clinton - this would tell us something real.

"Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up Boston airport." When was that? I certainly don't remember Clinton stopping an attack on Logan. Nor do I remember any government agency stopping such an attack.

Creating most new jobs, higher home ownership, etc. - in a country whose population is growing steadily, these things will always happen simply due to natural expansion, unless something goes badly wrong.

etc.

[Perry Logan]

20. Let's face it, you would flunk a simple quiz on Clinton's accomplishments.

This is true of all Clinton-bashers.

[MannyGoldstein]

27. What In My Post Do You Disagree With - And Why?

Here's your chance to humiliate me - give it your best shot.

[Perry Logan]

29. You're humiliating yourself quite well. I'm impressed with how you use your ignorance as a weapon.

[MannyGoldstein]

30. I Guess This Means That You're Unable to Refute

Until people think critically about our politicians, we'll continue to sink into oblivion.

[Perry Logan]

34. You're one of those guys who referees the match as it goes along.

Who knew I had to refute a couple of unsourced statements or lose?

You didn't hear about the attack on Boston airport because it was a secret. National security, you know. Please note that your argument there is based solely on your ignorance.

I don't believe Clinton sent any military secrets to China. Your link certainly didn't prove it.

There were accusations against Clinton of giving away secrets with "Chinagate." But it turned out the exchange of secrets occurred under the Reagan administration. Since there was a cottage industry in making stuff up about Clinton, you should beware of believing any accusation you hear about him.

Greenspan was around forever, and yet you're willing to use him against poor Bill Clinton. You are a critical one.

But if keeping Greenspan was so bad, the economy would not have been so incredible. Income rose at all earning levels. The poverty rate dropped. This does not prove that Allen Greenspan is Satan.

Ditto with NAFTA. We had the lowest unemployment in 30 years--suggesting NAFTA wasn't so bad.

[MannyGoldstein]

39. George Bush Single-Handedly Stopped The Annihilation Of The Earth By Martians

But you never heard about it because it was secret - you know, national security. That OK with you?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/missile/keystories.htm

If I issue you a credit card and you buy a bunch of stuff, are you better off? Greenspan was awful - are you kidding? He essentially created a national credit card, enabled by Clinton - now we're paying it off in the form of the collapse of housing and subprime mortgages. Things were good for a while, now we're paying the price - and their are a few more shoes waiting to drop.

NAFTA caused us to lose many jobs - I think that you're the only remaining non-Republican that disagrees with this. But Clinton's permanent "free" trade with China obliterated even far more jobs in the US.

[Perry Logan]

40. For the record: I don't support NAFTA or Greenspan.

It goes without saying that not everything Bill Clinton did--or everything that any President did--was good. In Bill Clinton's case, I think it is well to look on the plus side, since the media would never dream of giving him credit for anyhting.

[Armstead]

33. I admire your use of subatance regarding your candidate...but...

Really. I'm being sincere.

However, you blow it when you then refuse to answer counter claims by reverting to simple ad hominum insults.

I could assemble a list of Bush's "accomplishments" by using information selectively or by broadening minor points achieved without Bush's involvement. However, they'd obviously be difficult to defend.

If you bury readers with a ton of one-liners, then you ought to defend the points, rather than insulting those who challenge you.

I'd like to know, for example, how to justify the Clinton's endless and uncritical embrace of Alan Greenspan, an acolyte of ultra-crazy-conservative Ayn Rand and ultra-right-wing GOP hero economist Milton Friedman, bot of whom are totally antithetical to any degree of liberalism.

[Perry Logan]

37. See my response above. I fail to see how an occasional one-liner destroys all the facts I cited.

Criticism does not equal ad hominem you know. Everyone is ignorant of something. A saint can be ignorant.

[cuke]

61. I would like to see your list of bush* "accomplishments"

I bet you can't do it and come up with a list anywhere near Clintons list of real accomplishments. Your claim sounds like one of those "one liners" you claim are weak arguments.

[JackORoses]

48. you would probably fail the quiz as well, as long as they didn't allow cut and paste

[mtnsnake]

26. Thanks. Its nice to see people posting the truth to blot out the rightwing lies against the Clintons

that run rampant on this board

:thumbsup:

[Armstead]

35. At least get your characterizations correct

Disagree, if you must, but most of the criricisms of the Clintons on this board are from those on the left.

[mtnsnake]

45. The truth always hits home

You can tell from the responses.

Disagree, if you must, but most of the criricisms of the Clintons on this board are from those on the left.

Oh please. The criticisms on this board towards the Clintons are from all over the map and are just as divisive to our Party as are those from the right wingers who seek to divide the country in two. There are plenty of people on the left who admire the Clintons, as evidenced by reactions across mainstream Democratic America.

[zabet]

32. Many did not realize

what a great president we had when
Bill was in the Oval office. This was
mostly due to the success of the right
wing's smear campaign. The last 7 years
should have opened their eyes, you'd think.

[oasis]

44. Nominated for "Most Informative Post of the Day".

:kick:

[Captain Hilts]

3. This, from the paper that sold a leather-bound editon of their Whitewater editorials. nt

[denem]

4. Unbelieveable ;) n/t

[flpoljunkie]

7. What a bitch to have to "court those left-leaning Dems" when at heart, you are a DLC centrist!

[denem]

8. It's standard tatics-

Head to the left or right during the primaries, then towards the center for the general. What I took out of the article is that if she "court those left-leaning Dems" by making a promise, she will keep it, DLC or no DLC - a charge nobody could level at Bill.

[flpoljunkie]

10. Yet Hillary is the one who brought Dick Morris who brought Mark Penn into the White House.

The Clintons folded on public financing. Hillary Clinton has said she supports public financing, but is this only to "court those left-leaning Democrats" in the primary process?

[dsc]

14. She didn't bring Morris into the White House

that is a total lie.

[MannyGoldstein]

28. Centrist My Ass - She's a Goldwater Republican

Love of war and job-obliterating free trade? Acceptance of torture? No actual Democrat or even a centrist would do these things.

[cali]

41. you evidently wouldn't know a goldwater republican if one walked

up and booted you in the ass. She's lots of things, but she isn't a goldwater republican or any other kind of republican. She's been a dem since she was old enough to vote. Would a goldwater republican have worked for McGovern for president? No. Does any republican get the ratings she does from organizations like Progressive Punch and the ADA? No.

You completely discredit anything you have to say on... anything wih such ludicrous and easily disproved claims.

[MannyGoldstein]

47. Certainly One Of Us Wouldn't

NB: She votes left on the 90% of issues that are inconsequential, then goes hard right on the really important ones.

[AlertLurker]

17. This sounds NEARLY plausible...

Until you look into her Senate Voting Record. Then it just sounds like a really convenient excuse for her to take any position she wants while complately evading responsibility for them...

I, like many here, have an innate MISTRUST of politicians, so please pardon me if this attitude shiones through just a wee bit, here:

I'd LIKE to believe her, but considering the source, the political climate in the primaries, and her dismal voting record (Patriot Act & Reauthorization, Iraq, Abortion, Media, FDA, Same-Sex Marriage, Free Trade, Intelligence Reform, Bankruptcy, Torture, China, Energy, etc.), I just can't bring myself to trust that what she says is true or the reason why she is saying it is valid.

a) WHATEVER she says, she'll be ripped apart by the Republicans - she's their favorite target, and has been since her election to the Senate.

b) To be quite realistic, her hands are ALREADY tied - by her Senate votes. What a politician says or does in between votes, to me at least, is immaterial.

c) If she actually HAS a "responsibility gene," it's a pretty damn convenient time for her to have found it, sonsidering the aforementioned voting record. Where was this gene when she voted to give * the ability to piss all over the Middle East, or failed to stop the intelligence community from listening to our phone conversations, or failed to stop the insane Media Consolidation in the US, or failed to demand accountability from the FDA for their drug approvals, or failed to put workers rights / human rights in the China Trade bill (or Chile, or Singapore), etc...

It almost makes her look trustworthy and responsible, but actually merely frees her from any accountability whatsoever, regarding her record. I don't see "triangulation" as necessarily a BAD thing, and I don't believe that it and responsibility are mutually exclusive. In a heated political climate, a politician ALWAYS has to be careful about what is said, PERIOD. This just sounds like a really plausible excuse.

If you're going to talk the talk, you better make DAMN sure you are walking the walk. That's the main problem that Hillary is facing, here. She's got to disavow, or at least "play down" some of her right-leaning voting record to convince more progressive delegates that she's worthy of their support. Then, if nominated, she's got to turn around 180 degrees to fight the Republicans? WTF?

There are other (and more worthy, IMHO) candidates in the running that are not going to have to do these kinds of contortions around their records in order to get either nominated or elected.

[dsc]

18. The only votes she has taken on same sex marriage

are the ones to prevent the amendment. Is that your definition of dismal?

[AlertLurker]

21. First post and ALREADY a mistake - DARN!

I misread the text. She voted NOT to invoke cloture on the amendment. Probably a good thing - I have no idea, however, since I can't see that it actually ever came to a vote (I don't think it would have passed, anyway) - my apologies.

The rest still stands, however badly this error reflects on what I've posted (but I promise to go back and read more of the text of her votes, just to make sure I haven't flubbed up AGAIN)...

I was taking a look HERE: http://votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=55463

Some of the more DISMAL ones:

03/07/2005 Minimum Wage Amendment - N
12/18/2001 No Child Left Behind Act - Y
04/25/2002 Securing America's Future Energy (SAFE) Act of 2001 - N
09/07/2006 Media in the Middle East Amendment - N
11/19/2002 Homeland Security Act of 2002 - Y
05/07/2007 FDA Drug Import Certification Amendment - N
09/06/2006 Cluster Munitions Amendment - N
10/11/2002 Use of Military Force Against Iraq - Y
03/02/2006 USA PATRIOT and Terrorism Prevention Reauthorization - Y
10/06/2004 National Intelligence Reform Act of 2004 - Y
10/25/2001 USA Patriot Act of 2001 - Y
09/14/2001 Military Force Authorization resolution - Y

Granted - SOME of these votes may make her look more "electable" to the centrists and moderates, but they certainly will not endear her to the more liberal progressives...

I would prefer a candiate who votes the same way that he / she talks, myself.

[dsc]

24. no problem

I should have looked at your avitar that would have clued me in. Cloture here means ending a filibuster. Voting against cloture means voting to prevent a vote on the underlying bill. In this case a good thing.

[AlertLurker]

31. Thanks - I looked it up, too!

I don't think that her lack of appeal to Progressive Democrats will be a hindrance in the Iowa Primary, but it could mean a bumpy ride for her in New Hampshire, I think.

Other than her voting record, another important measure of how she would do in a general election would definitely be how well she has done for her constituents. I live pretty close to the NY State border, but I have really only heard negative things about her in the "north country" as they call it. Is she better liked in other areas of NY State (most specifically NYC)?

[DrFunkenstein]

22. Where Is The Part Where She Says What She Actually Believes?

I'm not sure where you get "honesty" from. I don't see political calculation as the same thing as honesty. If she said, "Hey, I believe in these centrist positions and that's just part of my package" it would be a different story. But instead she is calculating what the liberal base wants to hear vs. what moderates and conservatives want to hear in the general election.

I would like someone that is willing to speak inconvenient truths who has the talent to make it come across to the general electorate. Someone with great communication skills that can make liberalism seem like common sense - because it is!

Saying what needs to be said won't haunt you if you know how to say it. Pandering to interest groups can haunt you. That is the difference between Obama and Clinton.

A refusal to take a stand for what you believe is not the same thing as a "refusal to deliberately misinform voters."

Its a refusal to inform voters.

That's why Clinton plants questions and keeps everything superscripted while killing articles about herself and keeping the media off the bus - and refusing to disclose the very record that she is touting as her experience.

[denem]

62. Hillary may not say what she believes

This article says she will not say what she disbelieves - ie - lie.

[rocktivity]

23. I warned Hillary that her triangulating would catch up with her.

I warned her all the way back in January.

And back in February.

And in March.

And in May.

She thinks she can win by not promising anyone anything? Doesn't she realize that, to paraphrase the saying, if she doesn't appear to stand for anything she'll appear to fall for anything? Is she THAT scared of the Rethuglicans--or she that willing to be complicit with them? Well, circumventing your convictions in the name of self-preserving expediency is a form of "misinforming," too--as she's finding out.

:headbang:
rocknation

[illinoisprogressive]

25. Given the clinton's history, they never take positions unless poll tested

they do not come out and take a stand based on vision or conviction but, if it's popular or not.
Hillary's 'rove' is a pollster. She depends on that more than anything.
I feel this has over the years blunted both Clintons' ability to have instinct or to develop any real stand on any issue.

[ClarkUSA]

46. Another planted quote by Mark Penn designed to make Hillary look as if she has convictions.

As if we believe a WSJ quote from a Clinton "insider" & accompanying spin from an Hillaryworlder?

The only REAL conviction she has is, "It's my turn, dammit!"

[Armstead]

36. Funny that this sense of "responsibility" is only exercised against the Left

That's a core problem with Clinton/DLC politics. Rather than actually allying with "the left" they are more concerned with placating the "right" and the apathetic and the corporate elite.

What more grandiouse a claim can one make than to promise "fiscal responsibility" (a meaningless term that is akin to saying you favor apple pie?

It's HOW you achieve such goals that are important.

[blm]

52. Exactly - have they ever HAD a position they WOULDN'T move rightward?

.

[disndat]

38. The trouble with assessing H.C.'s

positions are that while her mains support is coming from women and centrists mostly because of name recognition and her husband's popularity, but her money is coming from the military industrial complex, big pharma, and stay-in-the-Mideast DLCers. She has shown no leadership ability by never speaking up,or out, on crucial issues. A lot of her play-it-safe strategies have followed the Bush's relationship to the press playbook.

[CGowen]

50. Bush quietly advising Hillary Clinton, top Democrats, says new book

http://www.examiner.com/a-953145~Bush_quietly_advising_Hillary_Clinton__top_Democrats.html

Washington, D.C. (Map, News) - President Bush is quietly providing back-channel advice to Hillary Rodham Clinton, urging her to modulate her rhetoric so she can effectively prosecute the war in Iraq if elected president.

In an interview for the new book “The Evangelical President,” White House Chief of Staff Josh Bolten said Bush has “been urging candidates: ‘Don’t get yourself too locked in where you stand right now. If you end up sitting where I sit, things could change dramatically.’ ”

Bolten said Bush wants enough continuity in his Iraq policy that “even a Democratic president would be in a position to sustain a legitimate presence there.”

[mmonk]

42. I have to know what the positions are.

Triangulation has led to an ineffective congress whose position I cannot nail down. I will only go with straight forwardness and no glossing over of huge facts about the last several years. Triangulation to me is avoiding the truth, not insuring it.

[ClarkUSA]

43. Hillary: I will parse, though.

:rofl:

[Renew Deal]

49. She will not win if she doesn't stand for anything.

And I feel like she doesn't stand for anything except focus group results, equivocation, and triangulation.

[The River]

53. Hillary Stands For One Thing Only

Herself.

She has been running for President
since Bills second term. (After 8
years of President Gore of course.
I don't think she planned to run after
8 years of chimp-in-charge disasters.)
Had the election of 2000 not been stolen
she could have done her Senate gig, voting safely with
a Dem President and arrive in '08 without anything
controversial on her record, like the IRW vote.

Hillary is all about Hillary and her place in history.
I have never seen any real leadership from her on important issues.
ALL of her votes have been cast with "positioning" herself for '08.
Hawkish on defense, pro business, cautious; a right of center Dem.
If she believed in something important to ALL Americans (like health care)
she would have been out in front of a peoples crusade like Al has been on Climate Change.

Turns out she didn't have any time to lead.
She's just been to damned busy running for president.

[blm]

51. More baloney - Hillary lies regularly - she claims she's been fighting Bush and Cheney

for the last 7 years. We all know she fought against Iraq withdrawal timetable in June2006 with more energy than she fought any of Bush's Iraq plans.

And oncamera, she joined Bush's lie against Kerry.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk1k0nUWEQg

[truedelphi]

54. The fact that Hillary might keep "her promises" is exactly what scares the

Shit out of me.

A modified for profit Health care insurance package.

A continuation of the Bush war drums beating against Iran.

Keeping troops in place until 2013.

SO I am supposed to vote for someone because they are honest about the corruption
and war they will bring to the fore once elected (As far as I am concerned, the for-profit health care in this country is a corruption.)

[antigop]

56. Don't forget her support for an increase in the h1-b visa cap

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhLBSLLIhUs
Hillary pushes for more h1-b visas and outsourcing

[truedelphi]

57. And is her drive for helping the poor from other countries

Enter our countries under the open border policies because of her great Christian compassion and charity, or is it so she can continue to help WalMart have unlimited numbers of workers for low paying jobs??

[truedelphi]

55. In other words, since I want honesty & EXCELLENT POLICIES, I'll vote Kucinich

That sums up my position.

[Life Long Dem]

59. She's been two faced long before this article.

Don't be fooled by her people. She votes one way and talks another way.

[jenmito]

60. It doesn't change the way I see her...

She said a president shouldn't say what they think. Obama, who's ALSO running for president, and therefore well aware he'll ALSO have to run in a general election if he wins the nomination, said he WILL always say what he thinks. She said she wouldn't meet with our enemies unconditionally, afraid it could be used as propaganda. Obama said he WOULD meet with them and he's not AFRAID that it would be able to be used as propaganda. Stating where you stand on issues shouldn't be a liability. I see it as triangulation no matter HOW it's spun. Hillary is evasive. Obama isn't.

[MethuenProgressive]

63. "according to one insider's account. " In other words, mere gossip.

Gossipmongers are killing the Democratic party.

[BenDavid]

64. That is why we need to insure HRC retains control of both

houses of Congress. More can be done when you control the House and if dems are smart and play their cards right in 08 they should be able to pick up 6 to 8 seats in the Senate. Harry Reid or whomever is elected as the new senate majority leader their first move would be to strip Liberman of any chairmanships he holds and be polite and say, "Joe, now you can go over to the other side and vote with them".

Ben David

[babydollhead]

65. kick

[PurityOfEssence]

66. I am not a crook...I give you my word as a Clinton...

That's why this asbestos pantsuit is so important...