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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 12:46 AM
Original message
Circular Firing Squad
First off, this thread is a Divide and Conquer Free Zone. If you have a beef with a particular candidate or organization within the Democratic Party or anti-war movement, take it somewhere else---like one of the hundreds of threads in Democratic Underground that are dedicated to the proposition that the RNC does not need to spend money fighting us when we can fight among ourselves for nothing.

I believe that every Democrat is united by one desire that outweighs all the bickering. We all want to see the War in Iraq end. I believe that we know that a Democratic presidential victory in 2008 will ensure that goal, whereas a Republican victory will ensure that the war for the possession of someone else’s oil will go on indefinitely, since Exxon and Chevron will always need a sizable U.S. military presence to protect their drilling operations from the threat of nationalization by the government of Iraq.

I also believe that we knew, in our heart of hearts, back in 1968 that Nixon was lying through his teeth when he said that he had a “secret plan” to end the war in Viet Nam, and we also knew that Hubert Humphrey was not the same as LBJ and that he was dedicated to ending the war, for all his reluctance to take an aggressive public stance critical to his own president. But that did not stop us from forming a circular firing squad in 1968 and selling the country four more years of the bloodiest, foulest war imaginable.

Why bring up 1968? Because I see some disturbing parallels, and because a country “that does not learn from history is destined to repeat its mistakes.”

In 1968, LBJ would have been a shoo in, but he did not run, because he recognized the Viet Nam war for the disaster it was and despaired of his own ability to end it. That in itself should have tipped off the nation’s Democrats that this was the party that was going to bring peace. At least we recognized that there was a problem. However, the Democrats became embroiled in an internal war, fueled by violence exacerbated by right wing killers like James Earl Ray and FBI provocateurs. LBJ was denounced as a war criminal. Hubert Humphrey was condemned by association. Eugene McCarthy won the youth vote by his unequivocal pledge that he would bring the troops home immediately---effectively ending the draft. Bobby Kennedy, who might have saved the party by uniting it, was murdered. The party’s method of selecting nominees---with most delegates assigned rather than being selected by popular vote---alienated those who already suspected corporate and government manipulation. Add to that the police riot in Chicago, and the Democrats literally imploded. Within the party, there were people who vowed not to vote at all if they could not vote for McCarthy. Outside the party, people looked at the internal discord and violence and wondered what kind of half assed candidate the Democrats were offering if he could not even rally his own base and keep the peace.

The Democrats did not shoot themselves in the foot all by themselves. They had help. As I mentioned above. Martin Luther King Jr. was murdered. Bobby Kennedy was murdered. FBI infiltrators could be counted upon to turn peaceful protests violent and law enforcement would then turn it even worse. And, on election eve, Nixon used one of his infamous dirty tricks, one that foreshadowed the Hostages for Votes that Bush would later negotiate in 1980 in Iran.

Humphrey finally saw the writing on the wall and realized that to pull the Democratic base together, he and LBJ needed to take concrete steps to end the war. They called Peace Talks.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/edit4.html

So, to block a late surge by Vice President Hubert Humphrey in the 1968 race, Nixon operatives convinced South Vietnamese President Nguyen Van Thieu to boycott proposed Paris peace talks. Nixon's men feared that President Lyndon Johnson's convening of those negotiations would catapult Humphrey to victory. The Republican gambit worked. The peace talks collapsed, and Nixon hung on for a narrow victory. But the scheme also jeopardized the lives of a half million American soldiers then serving in Indochina.


The 1968 election was the Democrats’ to lose. The U.S. had experienced prosperity under the Democrats. It had explored space. Social strides were being made. The big unpopular issue---the War in Viet Nam—should have played in the Democrats’ favor, since anyone with an ounce of sense knew that a Democratic administration was more likely to end that war than Richard Nixon, formerly Joe McCarthy’s buddy, foe of all things Red and hawk extraordinaire. Nixon was a known cheat and liar. His “secret plan” should have rung as hollow as his false contrition during his Checkers speech.

However, the left leaning Democrats themselves labeled their own candidate as pro-war, declared LBJ a war criminal, claimed that a vote for Humphrey was no better than a vote for Nixon and sat out the election. And thus were the Killing Fields of Cambodia, My Lai, Kent State and many more thousands of U.S. military and Vietnamese deaths brought about.

http://towardfreedom.com/home/content/view/68/69/

In November, Richard Nixon profited from the polarization and disillusionment, winning the presidential election in one of the closest votes ever. During his campaign, he had promised to end the war "and win the peace." Once in office, he quickly reversed himself, expanding it into Cambodia with over a year of secret bombings. Meanwhile, his attorney general, Richard Kleindienst, called anti-war activists "ideological criminals," giving a strong endorsement to the organized repression already underway.



Today’s Democrats need to keep 1968 in mind as we head towards the primaries and the nominating convention. As in 1968, a war is the number one issue. Once again, the outcome of this election will determine whether the war will end now or escalate, possibly spilling over into adjoining countries and dragging on for years. As in 1968, the election appears to be in the bag for the Democrats---but all that can change. There haven’t been any assassinations, nor are there likely to be. In this modern age of the corporate media, we see character assassination. Nixon started it in 1972 when he decided he wanted to run against McGovern instead of Muskie.

Now, the press does the dirty tricks, giving certain candidates no publicity or bad publicity while others are given lots of good publicity, based upon whether or not Rudy or whoever the anointed one happens to be wants to run against that candidate. Or, based upon what kind of triangulation they are trying to set up for the Democratic Convention. Divide the Democratic vote between candidates whose supporters have vowed that they will never vote for each other’s candidate, send them to the convention, plant some moles to denounce so and so as “the same as George Bush” and so and so as “anti gay” and you can get a nice little war going.

This is Divide and Conquer at its finest, and Divide and Conquer is the Republican National Committee’s favorite strategy when it comes to dealing with the Democratic Party. It is so easy to do, since we are the party of diversity. Usually we respect each other’s differences. But send a provocateur in to pretend to be a bigot, and watch the sparks fly.

The Republicans are hoping to see the Democrats leave the convention with a nominee and a fractured party. The losers (they hope) will have either failed to endorse the winner or have grudgingly endorsed him/her. The losers’ supporters will be vocal in their disdain for the winner. This kind of scenario is most likely after a bitter primary battle in which a lot of name calling has gone on. In a perfect world (for the GOP), Democrats will be proclaiming their own nominee “no better than Bush” and a “warmonger”---the way that Democrats in 1968 called Humphrey a pro war candidate. Even if they are not talking about it after August, the Republicans can go back in time and pull up footage of the Democratic challengers and their supporters saying it during the primary battle. With the Democrat labeled for all the world as a hawk who will perpetuate the war just like the Republican (who is going to put forward a “secret plan to end the war” you can count on that) suddenly the War in Iraq is going to become muddled in people’s minds.

Clinton is the most vulnerable to this kind of attack, but it can be used against Edwards, since he voted for the war resolution. Even Obama can be attacked, since his position is hawkish compared to that of Kucinich. That is why this issue of who is the real anti-War candidate is so dangerous. Are you anti-war if you want the troops out on the first day? The first week? The first month?

Democratic candidates can afford to differentiate themselves on a number of the issues, like how they would tackle global warming and how they would offer universal health care and how they would solve the energy crisis. But none of them can afford to act like Humphrey and hedge on the issue of the War in Iraq. He bears a large part of the responsibility for the loss in 1968 due to his unwillingness to publicly part ways with LBJ. Nor can they afford to act like McCarthy. How many of his youthful college supporters ended up dying in Viet Nam because their candidate failed to give the party's nominee his whole hearted support in 1968?

The candidates need to be be united. The answer to the War in Iraq is “I will end U.S. involvement in the civil war in Iraq as quickly as possible.” Period. How quickly is "possible" is something that a commander in chief decides once he/she has access to classified information. Anyone who demands a more specific date should be told so, politely but firmly. Any candidate who tries to win this campaign by declaring an opponent "no better than Bush" is doing the party and the country a serious disservice.

Democratic supporters also have an obligation to stop using the War in Iraq for the gain of their candidates. Parsing the words of other candidates and then claiming that so and so is “no better than Cheney” because he/she used the phrase “pretty soon” instead of “immediately” is irresponsible. It is exactly the kind of thing that McCarthy’s supporters were doing back in 1968.

Unfortunately, even if we stop, the corporate media has gotten into the business of grading the Democratic candidates. So, you will see Matthews on MSNBC analyzing the latest utterings of Hillary or Edwards or Obama to determine which is the real anti-war Democrat. I find this disturbing, especially since you never see a pundit do a close reading of Rudy, Romney or Thompson to see which will invade Iran the fastest. It is almost as if the press is aware that the Democrats have begun to divide their candidates up along a continuum of “most hawkish” to “most dovish” and the men in the suits in the board rooms who are mostly in the 50s and old enough to remember 1968 are rubbing their chins and thinking “Divide and Conquer….”

Once again, this is a No Divide and Conquer Zone. Please put away your guns. The rest of Politics in DU may be a circular firing squad right now. I would like to offer this space as someplace for people who believe that we should be united in our mission to bring the troops home and end the suffering of the people of Iraq.

Solidarity.

:dem:
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yes, a war is the number one issue...
But the shooting war(s) in Iraq and Afghanistan are symptoms of a greater war. The Class War. Anyone who doesn't realize THAT doesn't truly understand the stakes in the coming battle.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
2. K and R to the max.
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99th_Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
3. Without mentioning any names, I don't buy your premise
"we know that a Democratic presidential victory in 2008 will ensure that goal" .

again, not to single anyone out, but at least one "frontrunner" has said that they can't say they'd end the war by the end of
their first term.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Can't you honor what the OP has asked for
in his/her thread?


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99th_Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. So I should just pretend the statement was true? ..
"we know that a Democratic presidential victory in 2008 will ensure that goal"

or should I have just skipped the thread altogether?

I really thought I did try to honor the spirit, by not naming names or discussing specific candidates,
but geez .. now I'm confused.

sorry if i offended anyone.
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NBachers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. You'd prefer 50 years from now?
That's a figure the current administration has bandied about. Sit out the vote, or go for some ideologically pure candidate that's not the nominee, and play right into their hands.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #9
25. No, Hillary clarified her original statement..
funny how you all choose to remember her original statement rather than her latest redefining of the status of the Iraq war. Hillary said, she would need to leave residual troops to ensure a safe deployment of troops out of Iraq. And there needs to a small contingency of troops in place to protect the Embassy, diplomats and reconstruction crews rebuilding Iraq.
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99th_Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
28. if "ideologically pure" means say what they do, do what they say.. then yes
I'll go for that kind of candidate. That's what the Primary is for, for crips sake.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
15. Maybe that person is being more honest than anyone else.
No one can know exactly what is going to be the situation in the Middle East more than a year from now. Bush could have attacked Iran and Syria and involved us in World War III by then. Any promise ANY candidate makes is subject to change based on changing conditions.

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99th_Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
29. hmm. now where have I heard that line before?
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. That's just more of Bush, trying to prove he's still "relevant."
I couldn't give a damn what he says.
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99th_Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. But you should give a damn if Dem Prez. candidate(s) is(are) listening to his crap. n/t
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. I don't believe Bush for one second, and I don't know why anyone else would.
HRC will be taking advice from a lot of people, but none of them will be Bush.
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msedano Donating Member (682 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
5. McCarthy & we voters drove LBJ out of the race
Eugene McCarthy created an overwhelming message that voters were sick and tired of war-as-usual bullshit that told LBJ he didn't stand a chance. And LBJ's ego was completely deflated by the ridicule he faced wherever he went. "Hey, hey, LBJ! How many kids have you killed today?" LBJ thought himself a man of the people, a genuine hero. He who had arranged to bury a Chicano KIA at Arlington after a local "Christian" cemetery refused to bury the soldier's body in the local Texas cemetery--whites only, don't you know? Thanks, LBJ, but we laughed in your face regardless.

Could Gene have defeated Nixon? sure thing. I remember sitting in the hot Santa Barbara sun for hours awaiting McCarthy's delayed appearance. A campaign in chaos, underfunded but with a rich treasury of voters. We coulda done it. But, that's when the opportunist Bobby Kennedy jumped into the race. Pretty face, with the assassination of JFK still fresh in our ears, excellent PR machine. So, after McCarthy had lighted the way and earned the spot, along comes RFK and, shortly thereafter, Sirhan Sirhan. So we get Hube Humphrey, third choice in our race, and second choice to tricky Dick. And 8 more years of war. Good ol' fashion Republican war.

Other than that, yes, solidarity behind ending the war. Sadly, only one candidate today is against war.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
7. I don't think any of THESE Democrats (except Kucinich) will end the war.
I don't think they want to halt this march toward fascism.

Do you really think that Schumer and Feinstein will suddenly denounce torture, once a Democrat is in the Whitehouse?

They WANT this war, they WANT the power to implement extraordinary renditions, they WANT an enemy that is demonized so we can continue to expand our torture regimen. For the most part, they either don't have a clue about what is happening, or they don't have a clue about what principals this country was founded. I doubt that they just plain hate America, but that would also explain their behavior.

There really isn't any hope of deliverance coming from any Democratic candidate, at least until they are willing to denounce the whole Bush Doctrine as anti-American in both its goals and its tactics.

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leftrightwingnut Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 03:03 AM
Response to Original message
8. It is still early in the primaries.
I think that your concerns are overblown for 2008. Isn't this typical, messy Democracy at it's finest? I think that internal division during the primaries is par for the course, no? And, yes, that infighting *always* provides fodder for the Republicans.

So what?

Those differences and that infighting are something to be *proud* of. And it *can* be spun to our advantage.

The Democratic Party still, in my opinion, better represents the democratic ideal simply because its members and candidates are not lock-step together on the issues. The Republican Party primary appears to (at least to me, based entirely on msm reports) have pre-decided the issues, and the candidates are simply demonstrating who is best at standing up for those issues.

After the primaries, and all voices have been heard, addressed and deals are made, the Democratic Party always manages to pull itself together for the general election.

So it is important to speak up strongly and be divisive now!

Otherwise, how can we be heard?

I am afraid that, this early in the primaries, some use the "circular firing squad" and "Divide and Conquer" memes as a defense for the anointed one(s) in the Democratic camp. A way to make it easy for them. It seems a bit too convenient.

In my opinion, the lock-step, "get-on-board" mentality "for the good of the country/party/'us'" is exactly what is wrong with America today. It is exactly why we hate the "repugs", right?

Nothing is more repugnant to me than being told, during the primaries, to shut up because "it will fracture the party."

If *anything* will divide the party, and produce luke-warm endorsements -- if it happens at all - it will be when someone tells one or more candidates to shut up for the good of the party.

So, please tell me: is not supporting the front-runner and attacking the front-runner bad for the Party? Bad for America?

It is the responsibility of the front-runners to cut deals with the other candidates so that no one feels disaffected.

It is the responsibility of the front-runners to guarantee party unity, not the other way around.

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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. I considered this. There are degrees of infighting. I have followed a lot
Edited on Mon Nov-19-07 03:51 AM by McCamy Taylor
of elections. Think back to 2004. Did Edwards, Kerry and Co. call each other war mongers and as bad as Bush? Think back to 2000? Gore and Bradley were civil. The nastiness came from the press calling "Gore a Liar" and then from Nader with his "Gore is the same as Bush". When Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have run as the left wing conscience candidates, they have always been careful not to give the Republicans ammunition to use in the general election. You have to go all the way back to 1976 to see another campaign where a fractured party hurt a candidate. That was when Reagan refused to get fully behind Gerald Ford, who wasn't in tune with the right wing's vision for America. That was a nasty primary, especially for the GOP which usually runs respectful campaigns. The Democrats, on the other hand, fought a hard battle, but they were all congenial. They had learned their lesson in 1968.

I do not believe that all the posts at DU which fan the flames are internally generated. For one thing, the kind of people who would be actively involved in Democratic presidential campaigns this early should all have the minimum 1000 posts, because they should all be yellow dog Democrats, seasoned veterans of many elections. And yet, many of the people posting the most inflammatory remarks have a very low number of posts, as if they have only just come to this message board. Are these new Democrats who have suddenly embraced politics with a passion? That isn't how political campaigns usually work. Most people get their toes wet slowly. Few enter with a full fund of knowledge and a passion that drives them to spend hours posting about a candidate.

This has lead me to conclude that there is an unusually high level of Freeper activity on the boards of DU right now. This is not surprising. Altering the outcome of the Democratic primary has been one of the tried and true Republican strategies for many years. And as I wrote in the main body of my post, Divide and Conquer is the GOP's favorite game when they come here. Sometimes you can spot the Freeper posts that are designed to get DUers engaged in circular firing squads. Those are the not so clever ones. I am sure that there are plenty of masters who know how to blend in.

Finally, the mainstream media has been actively involved in helping to select the Democratic nominee. The press made Obama the superstar he is. They groomed him and gave him a persona and highlighted his positive aspects and ignored the negatives, just like he was an up and coming star. The press also anointed Hillary as the front runner, not because the corporate media loves her. No, the Republicans valued her for her high negative rating which convinced them that she would be easier to beat than a white man. At the same time, they shot down Edwards, denying him press coverage (except for his house and hair) when he needed it. That shows that there is an coordinated effort on the part of someone to manipulate the Democrats to affect the outcome of the nomination process.

In 1968, the FBI and the right wing used overt violence--assassinations, riots, police brutality---as their tools. This time around, they are using the press and provocateurs. The result of their meddling is to create a climate of fear, distrust. It is so clear that the corporate media is biased towards Hillary that people begin to think that she must favor the corporate media. They do not realize that the MSM has no intention of seeing her win. They just want her nominated. They see the press bias against Edwards and they see a conspiracy that must involve Hillary, because she is the one who benefits, right? The press and the pretend Democrats sow seeds of discord and then sit back and watch us shoot each other.

Keep in mind that Karl Rove is calling the shots from wherever the hell he went, and Karl Rove never had an original idea in his life. He learned everything he knows from Nixon, Atawater and Buchanan. Copying 1968 would be the natural strategy for him when faced with an unpopular war and an election that the Democrats seemed assured of winning.
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leftrightwingnut Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. Well, you pretty much pegged yourself with that post.
Aren't you what you claim others to be? A real master would have thousands of posts, so as not to garner suspicion.

I suppose a veteran DU'er would have had the sense to avoid your OP.

You may find this hard to believe: Post counts are poor indicators of Democratic Party loyalty.

I actually worked on the ground, locally, for the Kerry campaign. I have taken personal, in-my-face, insults from neocons for my trouble.

I have to admit to not being a steadfast activist -- and being so egregiously out of touch that I only recently discovered DU. And when I discovered it, I lurked for a long time before even bothering to register. I never was an avid online poster for anything. I am a busy person, and have limited time for such pleasures.

But it is a Presidential election and my interest is high right now. And I am having fun. :-)

I have a deep distrust of the MSM since the advent of Fox News, and the obvious way that MSM has manipulated voters. So when I see MSM suddenly supporting Democrats, I am elated -- then appalled. It's really no different now than it was then.

Have no fear, MSM will not abandon Hillary and Obama. They are the next POTUS and VPOTUS, for sure. Rupert Murdoch will see to that.
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #17
24. The person who introduced me to the DU, erma, never posted once...
She died last spring having never posted a single time and she joined in spring 2001. She donated money every quarter, though. Post counts are a bad indicator of loyalty. I remember being attacked for having a low post count when I first joined (as if it meant my posts had no legitimacy).
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 03:12 AM
Response to Original message
10. LBJ wouldn't have been a shoo-in. He was terribly unpopular.
Half his staff had quit over the war, even Walter Cronkite said " Fuggedaboutit." He already had challengers for the primary.

March 16, 1968 - Robert F. Kennedy announces his candidacy for the presidency. Polls indicate Kennedy is now more popular than the President.

During his campaign, Kennedy addresses the issue of his participation in forming President John F. Kennedy's Vietnam policy by stating, "past error is no excuse for its own perpetuation."

...March 25, 1968 - Clark Clifford convenes the "Wise Men," a dozen distinguished elder statesmen and soldiers, including former Secretary of State Dean Acheson and World War II General Omar Bradley at the State Department for dinner. They are given a blunt assessment of the situation in Vietnam, including the widespread corruption of the Saigon government and the unlikely prospect for military victory "under the present circumstances."

March 26, 1968 - The "Wise Men" gather at the White House for lunch with the President. They now advocate U.S. withdrawal from Vietnam, with only four of those present dissenting from that opinion.

March 31, 1968 - President Johnson stuns the world by announcing his surprise decision not to seek re-election. He also announces a partial bombing halt and urges Hanoi to begin peace talks. "



http://vietnamresearch.com/history/vntimeline.html

He knew he'd likely lose. He hated being the first President to "lose" a war, too.
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lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 03:20 AM
Response to Original message
11. Bring The Troops Home Yes - Vote For Hillary, No ---- Why
I will never vote for a Bush war enabler!

Period!

The Republicans can win again with the dim witted Freeper, NASCAR, Bubba crowd.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Then you're no better than the Nader crowd who bought the lie
that Bush and Gore were the same thing: Tweedledee and Tweedledum.

Actually, you're much worse, because most of them learned from their mistake.
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lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. Name Calling Is Against DU Rules - Do I Need To Report You?
eom
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. You must spend a lot of time reporting,
if you think that post is worth alerting. Do what you must.
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lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. I Get Tired Of Democratic Police Like Yourself Telling Me What To Think
eom
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 04:27 AM
Response to Original message
13. What a great piece. Thanks for your work. Recommended. n/t
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HardWorkingDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 04:33 AM
Response to Original message
16. Only agree with "circular firing squds" in terms of...
When the Democrats start learning how to win in politics, then it will be time to stop the infighting.

There is a common phrase in policing that goes, "good luck is not good tactics." Over the last couple of years, the Democrats have been betting on good luck, rather than building a stronger party. And our good fortune has little to do with good tactics and instead has relied upon the screw ups of the Republicans.

For example, no one will ever persuade me that the Democrats in Congress voted for Bush's war resolution other than out of facing the fear of what happened to Max Cleland and voted so in hopes the same would not happen to them too. Talk about the lack of integrity and spine!

Every single Democrat should have voted against Bush's resolution and here is why: I am a well read liberal Democrat who knew every word out of Bush's mouth was a goddamned lie. And if I knew that, then why the hell didn't our Democratic representatives?

So, until the Democrats in Washington reach down and grab that spine and remember they are supposed to represent the people, then they deserve all the hell we can give them.

Forget this "divide and conquer" crap. When the Democrats start representing the people, then they will never have to worry about being a minority again.

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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #16
26. You make a good point
The analogy can also be extended to many other issues.
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 06:48 AM
Response to Original message
20. If you're worried about the 2008 election, you worry too much.
Relax. Be happy. There's not enough Kool-Aid in the universe to make voters forget which party has practically destroyed the country.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
34. Not so fast...remember 2000, remember 2004?
We won in 2000 and lost the White House.
I personally believe we won in 2004 and lost the White House.
I think we need to be very careful not to take anything for granted. They are absolutely, positively capable of anything. There are threats we face OTHER than the opposition candidate (and other than ourselves:-).

I'm going to go fix my tin foil hat now...
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
21. Bravo,McCamy !
Beautifully written . Your comparison to '68 is spot on.K & R
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riqster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
23. I think that we need a good, healthy, vigorous debate
...and a wide-open primary. This isn't the time to cast our position in concrete.

I do think that we need to spend more time advocating our own candidate and POV, and stop attacking those of others.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
27. Your OP is absolutely spot on McCamy..
You nailed it!
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
33. Hear, hear!
Hats off to the OP. Insightful and beautifully written. Thanks!

:dem:

-Laelth
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
35. Bravo ! 100% in agreement. n/t
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RobertSeattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
36. 2008 might end up being 1932 again
Whoever the (D) is will be another FDR after Bush aka Hoover.
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