I want to finally WIN the culture war. I don't want to negotiate a truce.

[ruggerson]

The divide in the 60's, as we all know, was the counter culture vs. the establishment.

The younger generation wanted us out of Vietnam, they didn't want corporations to run amok and ruin the environment, they wanted civil rights for all Americans, and they didn't want religious and establishment authoritarians to dictate to people how to live their lives.

Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, George Bush I and II, Tom Delay and Newt Gingrich have collectively spent almost fifty years symbolically fighting this war and demonizing the ethos of the counter culture.

All the underlying rightwing hatred of Bill Clinton and his presidency goes right back to this fissure in our nation's history. He was "illegitimate" because he was, symbolically, in the Republican's eyes, the hippie who went on to become President.

This chasm is still the major divide in our nation. The establishment has morphed into the modern day Republican party and the religious rightwing. The core values of the counter culture are those that many liberals today still prize.

You don't win a forty year war by compromising on our core values and negotiating some kind of muddled, hypothetical middle ground with people who detest your very soul.

And you don't dishonor the people who put their lives on the line, so long ago, in the name of civil rights, peace, the environment and humanity.

[Sparkly]

1. Didn't I used to disagree with you all the time?

Why do I now agree with you most of the time? :hi:

[ruggerson]

9. One of us got on better meds?

:P

[DURHAM D]

2. A certain presidential candidate -

could of used a little schoolin' from you. He has large gaps in his education.

[JohnnyLib2]

3. Limbaugh has used the "left over hippies" bit for years.

It saddens and angers me to hear it used more and more by Democrats.

The old 'divide and conquer' strategy is in play once again.

:thumbsdown:

[cuke]

4. And then I want to pull their arms and legs off

so they can be recognized for the snakes that they are. Then I'm gonna jump on their backs and ride them, and beat them like a rented mule with their own limbs

Then, the celebrations begin. They're not going to like my party very much.

[mike_c]

5. please don't take this the wrong way...

...but my impression has been that you're more than willing to set aside all those liberal values in the name of political expediency, as though winning offices was the same as winning the culture war. As I said, please don't be offended-- I'd like to be corrected.

Winning offices without putting liberal principles and ideals at the forefront is a betrayal of the values we struggled to live during the sixties and seventies, IMO. It isn't enough to elect democrats or any other kind of party animals to federal offices-- the ideals they represent and pledge to work toward are far more important.

[ruggerson]

12. We live under a two party system

the Democratic party, for all its faults and inconsistencies and, at times, cowardice, is the party that, at its heart, represents our values and our ideals. I can be pragmatic about elections and campaigns, while remaining, in the long run, committed to a clear vision of what I conceptualize to be the perfect nation. I don't find the two mutually exclusive at all. Political wars are often long, drawn out, protacted and brutal. Especially wars to capture the soul of a country. Winning the war, ultimately, requires picking and choosing battles wisely and effectively, but never abandoning the very premise of that for which we are fighting.

[nashville_brook]

21. sounds like there's two wars -- culture war and political war

60s values weren't legislated, they grew from the grassroots during a time of political opposition.

[nashville_brook]

19. which is exactly why the Clinton administration feels like such a let-down

this goes way beyond "not inhaling." the economic policies of the Clinton era were Friedman-esque with a happy-face.

[Armstead]

22. That's how I see it

Our friends sold us out as much as our enemies.

The fact that so many Democrats embraced the Ayn Rand acolyte Alan Greenspan showed how far off course this side of the political spectrum has gone.

[usregimechange]

6. Damn right.

[polichick]

7. Exactly...

The hippies were dead-on about so many things that they basically scared the shit out of those on the right ~ the first victory of the vast right-wing conspiracy was to malign the movement by focusing on sex and drugs. Then they maligned the word "liberal" itself ~ and the rest is history.

But it's absolutely up to us whether we allow ourselves to be defined by Republican spinmeisters or hold on tight to what we know is right and true. I'm thrilled to see so many young people embracing, not only the music of the 60s, but also the ideals.

Peace out

[goodgd_yall]

8. So right

Maligning "the movement by focusing on sex and drugs." That began during Reagan's years. The right wing's favorite weapon is belittling and diminishing and they've used that against a whole generation of conscious and passionate people.

[rufus dog]

10. fair enough

Then you should have been pissed off when the poster boy president said 'I didn't inhale' instead of, what the hell kind of lame ass question is that, it was the 60's move on and quit being an ass! If you are going to kick their ass then kick their ass as opposed to hiding behind asinine statements.

[polichick]

13. I was upset that Clinton didn't say...

"Of course I inhaled, that was the point." (Which is what Obama said much later. See, sometimes he gets it right in my view.) Although, "What the hell kind of lame ass question is that?" works too.

The trick is not to censure ourselves because we're afraid they'll malign, belittle or ridicule us. We "disarm" them when we don't fall into their traps, when we don't let them define us. Back in the early 70s many of us embraced the term "bleeding heart liberal" because the description is accurate (we do bleed for others and fight for liberal values) and by claiming it proudly we completely disarmed those who meant to use it as a put-down. (cuke, if you're around, that's what I was trying to explain to you a while back.)

[rufus dog]

16. Bless you!

I tell people I am a liberal! Another Democratic wimp out. When the talking heads make it a negative the leaders should not change it to 'progressive' but should come back with all of the liberal inovations and ask what the hell the "CONSERVATIVES" have achieved in the last 30 years!

[jefferson_dem]

11. I agree. No dishonoring. No compromise on core values.

Let's move forward, and join with those who are best able to bring about the positive, progressive change we so desperately need.

[RebelSansCause]

14. sometimes i am jealous of the old timers, and then i remember that i

am 18. but fuck, it is hard in the trenches of youth, i wish it could return to a day where more people were committed to the serious change which everyone knows we need so badly. for all of you ex and still hippies, what the hell happened in the 80s? i would love to know, it seems like the clock has been turned back 1/2 a century or even a full one.

and btw, i remain committed to changing our culture, hence my distain for the dlc. my total, complete, and utter disdain for the dlc.

[Armstead]

23. What happened in the 80's? Got a few hours

The skewing of the political/social/economic spectrum is a long sad story.

But in essence, the Corporate Elite took advantage of the problems of the 1970's, and reasserted themselves with a whole lot of Orwellian gibberish. The GOP pushed it aggressively. Unfortunately, too many Democrats went along with it and threw the baby out with the bathwater....Hence, one party became an active warrior for corporate rights above the people, and the other was a passive co-conspirator.

[calteacherguy]

15. Exactly. That's why I'm supporting Obama. nt

[rufus dog]

17. let me elaborate on CalTeach's point

Bill Clinton held the hope for us in 92 that he would stand up and knock the shit out of these assholes. (and based upon his background and upbringing I think he had a shot) But Bill didn't do that, instead he capitulated and used his political skills to be a survivor. Something he may have learned from a family that was a bit better off did not share the same background as Bill. (HINT THAT WOULD BE THE RODHAMS) So now we have a choice between a candidate that has a history of capitulating or another that may, possibly, make a major charge. Can we be leary of Obama yes, will he be worse than Hillary, unlikely but possible. I know I am betting on hope and the fallback is I get HRC.

From my perspective, it is a no brainer. And I come from a Bill Clinton background and became a successfully business person without kissing any right wingers ass, but fought every fucking battle and have the scars to prove it.

[maximusveritas]

18. Uninformed and nonfactual ranting without any backing evidence

Off to the greatest page with you.

[IndianaJones]

20. you meant to post this as a new thread. nt.

[NMMNG]

24. Right on!

There's no "bridging the gap" with people who hate you and want you to change what you are. Throwing out core values and supporters in the name of political expediency is the wrong way to go. Stand and fight.

[ShortnFiery]

25. This chasm is NOT wholly partisan as "The Third Way" and "The DLC" are corporate whores as well. n/t

[Kuni]

26. I agree. Fuck them in the ass and wipe our dicks on their hair when we are done.

Nuff said.

[ShortnFiery]

27. Whoa! That's way too raw for the morning crowd.

:wow: :yoiks:

[Kuni]

28. And here I’d thought that I’d toned it down.