It seems to me that if you didn't get HRC's driver license reply, you're being willfully ingnorant

[Stinky The Clown]

Her reply was inartful, to say the least. The question flummoxed her a bit, to be sure. To say she momentarily lost her poise is fair. But to say she flip flopped in the span of a few seconds is nonsense .... unless you're reading from Fat Timmah Russert (et al)'s script.

Here's the deal. Fat Timmah is as qualified to 'moderate' a Democratic debate as Rudy 9/11 Ghouliani is qualified to be president (thanks to Joe Biden for that observation). Russert's entire franchise is the gotcha question. It isn't about substance with him. Oh no. It is simply about .... him.

He pulled a question out of his prodigiously sized ass and threw it at Hillary - after a full night of unsuccessfully trying to get her. Immediately upon seeing her stumble a bit, the assorted camp followers, court jesters and ankle biters sharing the stage with her jump on her too, following Fat Timmah's lead.

For her part, HRC said that if Spitzer wanted to do it, it was a good idea. She wasn't endorsing the policy. Her later replies on the same topic underscored that. To consider something as a viable possibility is the mark of a thinking person and to not consider such an idea is the mark of a closed minded dolt. Considering something - and even okaying it when someone over whom one has NO control over does - is NOT the same as making it one's own policy.

Her lukewarm words of support for the governor of her state will now be spun for its value in Rethuglican commercials ... and in the words of her primary opponents.

It is all poppycock.

But it might work. Because the media and the ankle biters will keep on pushing it.

But when you HONESTLY consider what was said - and the context - you really have to agree it was nothing.

[Colobo]

1. I have to agree that

this is a nice spin.

[Froward69]

6. second!!!

nice spin... grasping at straws. wait put down the straw and snap back to reality.

[flpoljunkie]

16. Except Hillary failed to speak up when Tim asked if there was anyone who disagreed with illegal

immigrants getting drivers' licenses.

It is so sad, that the Republicans have decided that illegal immigrants will be their "wedge issue" in 2008. If the middle class had not been treated so badly by NAFTA, greedy corporations, this would not be possible.

[silverojo]

19. It's not a "wedge issue"

It's the #1 reality for those of us living in border states.

Just because an issue isn't affecting you personally right here and now doesn't mean it's unimportant. The vast majority of Americans are against illegal immigration. Unless and until the Dems listen to the will of the people, our politicians are always going to be involved in an uphill struggle.

[flpoljunkie]

21. If middle class folks were not getting screwed by their corporate bosses, do you think it would

be such an issue. We do have an increasing number of illegal workers here in Florida--most doing jobs others do not want, like working in agriculture and service work, and hard, dirty work like roofing.

I think America's workers are increasingly being treated poorly. What would we do without unions? Would we all working for Wal-Mart wages?

[cuke]

26. That has nothing to do with the question from the debate

The question was about DL's for undocumented residents. Either way, they're coming here and all the problems you mention will be unaffected by what was discussed last night

All of this talk about your "Concern" for the worker, and you don't have any idea that the proposal that was actually being discussed on that stage last night has no effect on immigration.

[flpoljunkie]

63. Lou Dobbs and his ilk have ratcheted up fear and loathing of illegal immigrants. We need a rational

discussion and a rational response to the problem. Middle class workers are being squeezed from all directions, trying to make ends meet, and they need Democrats to stand up for them--not side with Republicans, take special interest money and do nothing to make life better for the middle class.

[Catherine Vincent]

2. They are.

They're making mountains out of molehills. No pun intended.

[Fredda Weinberg]

3. HRC has navigated thru another minefield

Today's NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/31/nyregion/31spitzer.html

has the story on how our immature gov was snookered by the WH. Could have happened to any new elected critter w/national aspirations.

But no serious candidate can speak the truth now, so she dances ... well. But don't kid yourself - this is complicated choreography and HRC doesn't control all the steps.

[peace13]

4. At least he didn't ask her about UFO's! n/t

[Stinky The Clown]

5. Ha

I rest the case I made in the OP.

Russert's an ass.

[HardWorkingDem]

7. Even though you are correct, here's the problem...

Clinton did a remarkably stupid thing along the lines of the Bill Clinton "inhale", "is" and Kerry "87" billion comments. She is acting just like her husband - that she thinks she (even if she is) the smartest person in the room and is in the practice of trying to parse words to have the right answer to every question.

EVERY candidate knows his or her opponent is looking for that "gotcha" moment and this has now become one of her defining moments that WILL be broadcast loud and clear to everyone.

Her reply to this single question, I predict, is going to come back and bite her big time.

[Stinky The Clown]

8. I kinda postulated that in the OP

I didn't say it wasn't - or wouldn't become - a problem for her. I just said that to think her position is what they made it out to be takes willful ignorance. Essentially, I think you and I agree.

[HardWorkingDem]

10. Yes, we do...and you are right...

I hate it when junk like this happens because if she had just answered the question like she should have, then this would have been a flat, go away question. My question is was she trying to garner support from Hispanics or some other voting bloc or what? But she should have just said "no" because if you think of it, how many "illegal" immigrants are actually going to apply for a driver's license?

Wouldn't they think if they apply for one, then the government will know who and where they are and deport them?

[geek tragedy]

9. She thinks it's a good idea, supports it, but won't endorse it.

Yeah, that's not convoluted.

[Stinky The Clown]

12. This thread is not the place to debate the merits of the idea(s), but ........

.... how is it unreasonable to say that Spitzer's plan is a 'good idea'? It has merit. A reasonable case by reasonable can be made for it. You may not think its the *best* idea and I may well agree with you, but to make it all or nothing/black and white/for it or against it is stupidly simplistic and .... well ...... willfully ignorant.

Sptizer seems to think it is important to be able to identify and (in a civic sense) control people, no matter their status. He refuses to simply ignore the fact that these people are, in fact and indeed, here. That's a reasonable position. You and I, as I said, may not agree with it, but it is hardly loony and surely not a 'bad idea'.

[geek tragedy]

14. I think her first answer was fine.

When she was stating her opinion.

But, after Dodd went after her, she blew it by trying to have it both ways.

[MH1]

18. That was my impression too. nt

[DangerDave921]

15. Turn the tables

What bothers me is that HRC won't commit to a position. It's very easy to answer the question whether she agrees with the proposal or not. And she wouldn't do that. It bothers me when a candidate won't clearly state his/her position on an important issue. I understand why HRC feels the need to take no position, but that doesn't mean I admire it.

Let's change the scenario. Let's say, hypothetically, a candidate was asked if he/she agreed with a governor's proposal to ban gay marriage. What if the candidate gave essentially the same answer HRC did, i.e., I understand the governor has a reason for doing so and it's not a bad idea. It's not the best option but I understand why he's doing it. etc. etc.

Would you stick with your position that the candidate gave a reasonable response, even though he/she didn't come right out and agree or disagree? or would you expect a definitive answer?

[Stinky The Clown]

22. The difference is ......

'Gay marriage' is largely a one dimensional issue. You are for it or against it, with only 'civil unions' as middle ground. (I hope I'm not oversimplifying that, but ....) It's really pretty simple.

Immigration and legal status is a multidimensional issue .... it has to do with border control, with the status of children of such people who are born here, on controlling the people and identifying them. It has to do with providing for the public health of the nation (no health care can mean an epidemic that starts in the 'illegal' community). And on ..... and on ..... and on. One can't really take a black and white position. It is too complex and the issues too demanding of nuance to be a simple 'for or against' position. And anyone who takes such a black and white position is .... well ..... willfully ignorant ..... or maybe just a garden variety ignoramus.

[cuke]

27. And DUers don't realize that many people like that about the Clintons

Many people don't like the way the media reduces every issue down to one dimension. People who watch debates are looking for smart and thoughtful responses. She did poorly with this explanation, but she did not change any position.

On the other hand, her response to the SS question won her many votes. The fear mongering from some of the other candidates is not appreciated by many dems

[DangerDave921]

61. sorry

But you are making this more complicated and "nuanced" than it needs to be. You just now raised a whole ton of issues that are legitmate, serious issues. But they weren't part of the question in the debate. The question was whether HRC agreed with giving illegal aliens driver's licenses. Period. And she wouldn't say yea or nay. That tells me she doesn't want to commit to a position for fear of alienating voters.

[flpoljunkie]

17. Reminds me of this recent Tony Auth Hillary cartoon...

[cuke]

28. That applies to any candidate

As an Obama supporter, you should know that since this weekends "Embrace the Change" tour

[Bitwit1234]

11. In my knowledge of the governor of a state he sets the laws.

I don't think the come from the senate. And if a senator says that a governor thought it was a good idea, does not mean they approve..they are saying the governor must have thought it to be a good idea. But then the people wanting to bash Hillary Clinton are going to blame it on her, regardless who's idea it was.

[Stinky The Clown]

13. My point, exactly.

:thumbsup:

[MGKrebs]

20. I thought it was pretty clear that she supports the idea,

she just didn't want to commit to anything specific. There are a lot of people who resist the idea, and she wasn't going to convince a massive amount of people to support it in that venue, so she demurred.

If people can't read between the lines sometimes, they'll just miss some stuff.

[Stinky The Clown]

24. This is, in some ways, like the abortion issue

No one **wants** an abortion or wants to encourage women to get them.

Our side (mostly) supports choice .... not abortion.

The two get conflated all the time.

Same her. In fact, it doesn't mean two squats what anyone thinks abut drivers licenses. The issue is MUCH bigger than that.

[MGKrebs]

25. And she tried to articulate that.

She said the federal government had failed and that governors were left with a problem that they had to deal with as best they could.

A lot of people seem to want simple little easy answers to complex problems. I, however, distrust candidates who offer them.

Ideals ≠ issues

[democrat2thecore]

23. She PARSED her words and her position killed Davis in Cailfornia

If her position is to hand out driver's licenses to illegals, then she has made an incrredibly stupid mistake. It is a deal-killer in the general. Doesn't anybody remember what happened to Gray Davis? God people, WAKE-UP - we have to win this thing!!

And to the "Safety Cops" out there concerning this issue: do any of you believe that being able to get a DL, and not passing the tests, would really PREVENT them from driving? Really?

[cuke]

45. Her position has nothing to do with California

It applied to NYS and only NYS. That's why she said she would not support it.

And it's not about preventing them from driving. Where did you get the idea that giving them DL's was meant to prevent them from driving? That's a truly odd interpretation

[democrat2thecore]

59. You misunderstood

The idea is give illegals driver's licenses so they will safely be on the roads. (ala Obama's answer). Many ask that if illegals fail to pass the DL test, will that really prevent them from driving (and thereby be a risk anyway?}

[LostinVA]

29. Good post

How are the doggies, btw? We're seriously thinking of getting a rescue bc after the holidays.

[NMDemDist2]

30. Stinky and Sparkly Princess got a new doggie??

:woohoo:

[LostinVA]

32. No! One may join the Lostinva & Haruka family

A bc.

[NMDemDist2]

39. I love my BC, he's such a sweetie

we had some folks over yesterday and they brought their dogs, my Bubba BC was the perfect gentleman and host, the girls.... let's just say not so much :rofl:

here he is with this 'little sister' by our pool in the old house

[LostinVA]

46. *squeal*

[NMDemDist2]

50. hehehhe, here's another one ...

poor guy's starting to show his age...

[LostinVA]

51. Isn't this better than fighting about the debate?

[NMDemDist2]

52. absolutely!!

I saw the debate, I made my opinions on the candidates and I'm keeping my mouth shut until Super Tuesday at which point I will vote my choice of who I think is the best person for the job.

Silly me eh?

:evilgrin:

[LostinVA]

54. That's the craziest thing I've ever heard

What fun is that??? Being sensible and sane???

Haruka wants to do agility or something similar with the bc we get.

[NMDemDist2]

55. BCs LOVE LOVE LOVE agility

I took my boy to agility for a couple years

they need a 'job' or they'll drive you nuts cuz they are as smart as a 5 year old child

Great dogs if a tad high maintenance

[Stinky The Clown]

35. Nononono ..... just our dearly loved BC.

:hi:

[NMDemDist2]

40. I thought your son had him

I'm so confused...

:crazy:

[Stinky The Clown]

47. K .... here's the deal .... at least this week! :)

There are two sons (and one daughter). Each has a dog. H2Sjr/1 has a BC. He is living where he can't keep her. So she is with us pretty much permanently. H2Sjr/2 has a Shepard. She lives with him and our daughter-in-law. She was with us for five weeks over the summer as they were getting married and on their honeymoon. She is home with them now.

Our cat has always been here. :)

[NMDemDist2]

49. ok, now I'm up to speed. I knew you guys loved the BC

glad she's with you!

[Stinky The Clown]

56. We just love her.

She's very much like the first border collie we had when the kids were little. I still miss her.

[Stinky The Clown]

34. Our girl's just fine .... freakin out at some costumes tonight, but otherwise fine

Her fearlessness was tested by a neighbor kid with a VERY realistic werewolf head.

[LostinVA]

44. I hope no kid shows up covered in wool

:scared:

[superkia]

31. No matter how bad a question is, tell the American people how...

you feel, we don't need any spin from our presidential candidates. Hell, Kucincih was asked about a UFO for Christs sake, he answered truthfully and direct with no spin. Clinton tried to squeak through a tough question like she does allot and got caught up in it. Its not the hosts fault and its not another candidates fault for pointing it out. When she was going back in froth you even see Biden looking at the hosts, shaking his head and laughing because he probably couldn't believe what she was trying to do either. I think America got a good glimpse of how she runs her campaign and will run the country. Tell us what you think we want to hear so we shut up and then do what helps your agenda. Last night can be spun anyway people like but I think most Americans that saw it agree that she got caught up in her typical games.

Come on Hillary, this is our children's future at stake, please be direct and answer at least the important questions honestly. Let us know who you really are. We would rather have debates on the issues here on DU instead of having to go through this type of nonsense. I cant even imagine how much of her games will be thrown at her if she is our nominee, the democrats could actually lose another election and I originally thought that was impossible.

[MGKrebs]

38. In my opinion, you just don't understand what is going on.

Kucinich never really had much of a chance anyway, but whatever dream he had was killed last night. I just can't help but think that it is either arrogance or naivete to think that candidates should be able to speak openly and honestly about any issue in any context. That works great as long as everybody agrees with the plain honest statement, but the fact is, the country is very divided. A president has to build a consensus to get much done, and that really isn't going to happen all at once during a stupid debate. So candidates have to plant some seeds, and lay some groundwork, and even sort of speak in code so that they can get elected to do the things they want to do. Candidates who don't understand that don't get elected and supporters who don't understand that are just in the wrong game. You need to be working for Greenpeace or the ACLU or something instead of insisting that political candidates all agree with YOU. Somehow, in issue advocacy, we can remain pure, even as we accept less than perfect steps on the way to our goal. Candidates get no such luxury from ideologues. It's all or nothing RIGHT NOW.

I mean, it's a George Bush kind of mentality: My way or the highway. No discussion, no negotiation, no gray areas. I would urge a little more sophistication and an attempt to expand ones field of view. There ARE other people out there. They may be wrong, but they haven't been convinced of that yet, and they must be allowed for, not only because they vote, but because they are our neighbors and fellow citizens. WE, as well as the candidates, have to work to change their minds to accept the policies and principles we believe in.

[superkia]

53. You sound like you work for the government, you have that same...

attitude that Americans are too stupid too look at candidates that speak the truth and vote for what they believe in, we have to be played with and fooled to vote for someone so they can get in office and do what THEY want not what we want. So thank you for helping to destroy America and keep up the great work. YOU must be right, Americans are all stupid and you are one of the smart ones that understands how to continue playing the same bullshit political games that have taken our country in its current direction...YOU ARE RIGHT! Have YOU not realized that the current way of playing the political games has been horrific for our country? If you are having difficulty realizing this, maybe you shouldn't even be allowed to vote because people like you are dangerous for our future.

Good luck to our country if YOU are the majority!

[MGKrebs]

60. My perception is that there are more than one point of view on many issues.

I may believe mine is correct, but I know that others believe theirs is correct too. The expectation that politicians in the middle of a heated campaign , during a TV "debate" should be able to somehow answer any question with a yes or no is naive. The moderators purposely ask "gotcha" questions that attempt to force candidates into these rigid "either-or" scenarios, but often there really are gray areas and complexities that make "yes" or "no" an unreasonable answer.

It's funny, I think that expecting simple answers to complex questions is underestimating the ability of Americans. We CAN comprehend complexity and subtlety.

I agree that the political system is messed up, but your solution is to prevent those who disagree with you from voting?

Actually, the government works for me.

[calteacherguy]

33. Your post confuses me as much as what she said.

She says it's a good idea but does not endorse it? :shrug:

I don't get it. I have an IQ of 122 and a graduate degree.

[Stinky The Clown]

36. I good idea is just that .... an idea

It isn't policy or a viable position until one says it is. Until then, it is just an idea. There are good ideas (Let's got for a walk) and bad ideas (Let's go walk in traffic).

On that basis, she said it was a 'good idea'. That endorse only the quality of the thinking, not the substance of the idea.

On edit ..... I have a higher IQ than you. Does that matter? :shrug:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. I Q Is Overrated

John Kennedy had an I Q of 117...

Emotional intelligence is just as important...

[Stinky The Clown]

48. I agree ... but someone else saw a need to raise the issue .....

... perhaps as a way to increase creds? :shrug:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. My Mom Had A 151 I Q And Was A Bookkeeper

But she couldn't go to college because she came of age during the Depression...

[Evergreen Emerald]

42. Again, we agree husband to Sparkly

But: this is politics. And people here are willing to root for Tweety and the media to eviscerate Clinton, not realizing that their candidate is next.

[illinoisprogressive]

43. it was typical Clintonian.

[truedelphi]

57. All she'd have had to say when asked about Driver's Licenses for Immigrants

To get my vote is to say "What really bugs me is how George W Bush got a license for an illegal war."

[CyberPieHole]

58. Here's a big KICK for you, Husb2Sparkly...

and an even bigger REC!

I agree with your analysis completely. Well said!:cheers:

[SIMPLYB1980]

62. K&R