My Take on the Debates and what happened.

[illinoisprogressive]

First off, I am not trashing anyone. I just think it would be nice to have mature discussion on what happened last night. Yes, i was glad to see Hillary's air of inevitable pierced but, I think some things came into play to make her vunerable last night.
For over a year Hillary has been crowned queen by the msm. All primary season she has enjoyed a free ride by the press and has had daily cheerleading and glowing coverage. Many missteps were buried quickly to cover for her by her many friends in the media. This led to her believing that she would be protected and things would be spun for her like always.
She also set her ownself up by practicing the politics of the 90s. Then, the triangulating and ducking and dodging worked and was cute. But, after everything we've been through with the Bush cabal, People are demanding real answers and accountability and mature thinking. Games are fun when little is at stake but, not with what this country is facing now. Ducking and Dodging doesn't work for these days.
Sometimes being too rehearsed and consultant driven, ect., is bad. it leaves you unable to deal with the spontaneous and unknown from left field. She had warning this was coming and was maybe overly rehearsed and overly prepared by her consultants that she was unable to deflect or deal with the surprise questions or criticisms with grace under the fire.

John Edwards got good 'shots' and was passionate. I think he got a bit too personal but, he did what he needed to do. contrast himself with the others. He needed to make his case clearly before people and show his differences. And why he disagreed with Hillary and why he felt he was the better candidate. he did an excellent job of this. I liked his passion.

Barack Obama had to show his differences with Hillary on the issues and why he was the better candidate. He did not go for the personal. I think he was grace under a do or die situation. He showed humor and he made his case. Unfortunately he did not please the pundits who wanted kneecapping and the 90s style pit bull thing. Obama is not of the 90s so, he is not going for blood. he is trying to make his case and show he can be tough without being ugly.

Joe Biden had the line of the night. a noun, a verb and 9-11. He is awesome with foreign policy and i believe he has alot of common sense on many issues and is direct and honest. he was strong as always but, last night was probably his best night.

Chris Dodd did well. He was the one who pushed the crack in Hillary's aura of inevitability the most. He is also one of the ones with a strong night. Plain spoken and passionate.

Bill Richardson I like. But, for some reason, last night he just seemed to be more off and did not get his message through well. I don't think it was his strongest night.

D. Kucinich. He always has the most interesting ideas and is very confident on policy. He really hurt himself last night with that UFO question and I felt bad that it was even asked.

Hillary had a rough night but, I think it could make her a more engaged candidate if she learns from the dabate. This I do hope for her sake. I do believe the biggest thing of the night was the role of the press. they have covered the primaries terribly. They focused solely on their obsession with Hillary and gave her a far too soft ride for a year and this left her with the false sense of security and pushed her numbers up to where she did not feel it was needed to update her politics. So, when the attacks came, she flustered and got defensive.
They also have left out or put down the other candidates who are very good and strong and able. It is ashame that the press plays games like this rather than cover things in a fair minded and fair coverage way.

[LakeSamish706]

1. I think that your take is right on with one exception.... D. Kucinich...

I'm not at all sure that the UFO thing is a problem for him. Many Americans believe that there are possible other life forms out in that vast Universe, and stating that you saw a UFO does not give you the plaque. As a mater of fact, many past presidents were known to seek guidance from Psychics....

[illinoisprogressive]

2. I hope so. I felt it an unfair question to begin with.

I really feel he needs to be taken alot more seriously and not be the butt of the press's jokes.
He is a very intelligent man. I saw his wife being interviewed yesterday and what a lovely person.

[LakeSamish706]

6. I truly believe that a Kucinich President would be the greatest...

thing that could happen to this country right now. He has so many great qualities, ie: against war period, against big corporations continuing to rule the roost, and the list goes on and on....

[cascadiance]

26. Folks looking for Kucinich to win should check this "alt" documentary video from Liberty News out...

It's a cool projection of the future looking back into the past at this election. It shows a lot of our fears here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2172965&mesg_id=2172965

[rjones2818]

10. The question is

would you rather he'd lie about it?

I wouldn't.

[IronLionZion]

25. Just because you can't identify an object, doesn't mean it's aliens

and the MSM especially Chris Matthews would like to use it against him and entertain notions of aliens but the fact is he just saw something flying in the air that he couldn't id.

There are many things it could be, he just didn't know what it was.

[liberalmuse]

3. I watch news reports from the 1980's...

and I'm stunned at the difference. In the older news clips, you hear a reporter with a professional, unbiased tone reporting on facts, no matter how ridiculous the pictures on screen are. As bad as it was in the '80's for propaganda, it was nothing like now. You can clearly see the bias on the side of the media people. It's shameful. That being said, I thought in spite of Williams and Russert trying to make the debates into the Hillary and Obama show, all of our candidates did well when given the chance to speak.

Edwards played attack dog. It likely helped the others more than it will him. Hillary seemed human and vulnerable last night, which I liked. The UFO question was meant to crush Kucinich. It was a low and underhanded question, considering Kucinich had gotten much press yesterday for suggesting Bush was mentally unstable. I can almost picture the blastfax coming through from GE. Obama spoke very well, but I did feel he stammered at some of the questions. Dodd was forceful and knew what he was talking about on every issue. Richardson was weak and not very Presidential. I agree that Biden had the best lines of the night, especially, '...a noun, a verb, and 9/11.' That was just so right on, LOL.

[LakeSamish706]

7. I thought that Dodd was pretty impressive last nite as well! n/t

[goclark]

13. Biden did what I'm talking about ....

That was an awesome Sticky phrase!

Can't you just see it repeated over and over and over!

:bounce:

When you don't "have the votes" in Congress, you can still have a VOICE.

Speak Democrats, speak in language that is easy to remember and easy to repeat!

Speak Nancy!
Speak Conyers!
Speak on Biden --- great!

[Gidney N Cloyd]

4. I agree with most of this except >>>>

1) I thought Obama looked really shaky, like he had some place else he needed to be and couldn't get it off his mind.

2) Richardson seems to fall further and further short of his resume every time I see him. Last night he was sounding outright desperate.

[LakeSamish706]

8. I agree with both of your points... Obama to me was much more impressive several ...

months back... He seems to have lost some luster in my opinion....

[ccpup]

5. I appreciate your effort

to have an adult conversation about this. So, here's my two cents:

Edwards, to me, seemed a bit too much. He gesticulated, his face grew flushed, his voice took on an unappealing desperation and all in during his effort to find some way -- any way! -- to get his cracks in at Hillary. I had a hard time seeing any of that as Presidential or of inspiring in those who may not be as aware of him a sense of Leadership.

Obama, to me, was about as interesting as milquetoast. You call it grace, I call it the "Look ..." factor. He seemed out of his element, lacking in gravitas and I'd be nervous with him running in the General Election against the Republican slime machine.

Biden seemed strong and free, the kind of freedom one gets when one is still languishing toward the bottom of the polls and has little to lose.

Dodd, as always, was intelligent, concise and has a world of experience to draw upon. He dug at Hillary a bit, but his biggest dig seemed to be at Richardson. I got the feeling they were both running for VP last night.

And Richardson? He may be intelligent and experienced, but I don't see a President in him. It's hard to put one's finger on it, but the "it" isn't there.

Kucinich was, as always, reasonable and well-spoken, but did hurt himself with the UFO stuff and, quite honestly (though many agree), with the Impeachment stuff. Again, the freedom that comes with lagging behind and not being a front runner can really affect what one says and doesn't say.

And Hillary? She is undeniably an intelligent, well-prepared candidate. If anything, I think she showed the human side to her last night when the relentless assault she was getting from not only Obama and Edwards but also the Moderators started to show. How does this play in the General? Probably fine. I don't think Edwards would have done as well under such a blistering attack and I shudder to think how Obama would have handled it. In my opinion, Hillary had the strongest backbone on the stage and she showed she'd do fine in the General with whatever the repugs pull out of their collective a**, most of it old news the Public is inoculated to anyway. You know, the same ol', same ol' stuff. (yawn)

Anyway, that's my view.

[illinoisprogressive]

9. I really appreciate everyone making an effort at a mature conversation

I am so sick of the flames and want to discuss our differences and in common with a grown up twist.
I thought i did note Dodd did well. You can see that him and Biden and kucinich have alot to offer and need to be treated much better. I have been upset all primary season with the coverage as I think the people cannot make a wise choice without fair coverage of all candidates.

[ccpup]

15. it's fascinating, actually

All we're really armed with when it comes to who we support and who we don't is our opinion. And this opinion is based on not only what information we have (and will accept), but also our perspective on life, our perception of events and our belief in what the next President will need to have -- what qualities will be important -- to turn this country around.

To have a vigorous -- sometimes viciously personal -- disagreement with someone's opinion is a lost cause. Because it's THEIR opinion based on what they BELIEVE is right (or wrong). They're entitled to theirs just as you're entitled to yours.

If more people understood this, perhaps DU wouldn't be as acrimonious and perhaps as unwelcoming as it's been.

[LakeSamish706]

11. Most of your post I agree with, but the problem that I have with Hillary...

is her view on war and her close relationship with corporations... I view this as problematic...

[ccpup]

16. the view on the war

could be problematic and, I suspect, is widely misunderstood. The close relationship with corporations, on the other hand, would be shared by any candidate who's the Front Runner with more money in the bank than anyone else.

It's a sad reality in our current political situation -- and I'm not talking about how it SHOULD be, but how it CURRENTLY is -- that one needs a great deal of money to get one's message out effectively. I suspect Obama and Edwards and Biden and Richardson have their own ties to corporations who are supporting them. Doesn't make it right, but it doesn't mean Hillary should necessarily be singled out as the "only" one as I don't know if that's necessarily correct.

Didn't both Biden and Kucinich allude to this last night? The potential hypocrisy of someone who's supported by New York hedge funds criticizing someone for taking corporate money?

[lostnotforgotten]

24. On Hillary - I Will Never Vote For A Bush War Enabler Period!

eom

[rjones2818]

12. I'd rather have a person fighting for impeachment

than a go along to get along politician (pretty much all of them except DK and Mike).

Go Dennis! :woohoo:
http://dennis4president.com
Choose Peace!

[laureloak]

14. I started disliking Hillary last night.

She double-talked, was evasive, laughed at the worst times.
She was a big turn off.

[ccpup]

17. I don't remember her laughing once

and she wasn't more or less evasive than anyone else when being asked simplistic questions about complicated issues

[laureloak]

29. She laughed every time Edwards caught her on something.

As if she was trying to pass his comments off as being trite.
It didn't work.

[ccpup]

31. smiled, yes

Laughed? Nope.

[laureloak]

32. Ok, snickered like a hyena. It was stupid and a big turn off. n/t

[FlaxieB]

20. Hillary was just being her normal self. Nothing new here

[Bread and Circus]

18. Yes but what about what she did in Arkansas, with the brazillions

of starving children there?

[truedelphi]

19. As a Kucinich supporter, it really is annoying that they do not

Gvie him the same amount of time that they give any one else.

[truedelphi]

21. How do the rest of you feel about the "lightning rounds"

It was something that my husband and I both watched carefully.
For the MSM candidates, the clock wouldn't even appear until the person had talked for four or five seconds. ANd then if the MSM darling candidates still were talking over the time limit, they just had the clock go away.

The only one that they enforced the lightning round with was Dennis Kucinich. They somewhat scolded him

All in All, I even hate the idea. The last really decent debate we had in this country was Nixon-Kennedy.

IF you only give someone 30 seconds, they just hit the main talking points - which for each candidate is roughly the same.

The differences between the candidates is in how they would implement the talking points. That is what we need to know.

[youthere]

22. Kucinich was treated like absolute SHIT last night... I don't even LIKE Kucinich...

and it pissed me off.

[goclark]

30. I agree ~ that was a cheap shot

No matter how he answered the question it made him appear different when we know he is so smart.

:mad:They probably did that to him because he is on the Impeachment Trail and they wanted to discount him early.

[Grandrose]

23. Excellent analysis! (K&R)

:) :thumbsup: :kick:

[Ethelk2044]

27. Agree with You

[sandnsea]

28. Give examples of Edwards getting personal

Because that sounds to me like MSM talking points, I can't remember hearing anything personal at all.