Am I the only Democrat against licenses for illegals?

[Superman Returns]

Being for it is one sure way to lose an election especially to Guilaini who can make in roads with northeast moderates. I liked Obama, was coming around to Hillary, but now after this issue, I am definitely thinking about Dodd or Biden. In terms of the debate, despite my rooting for Obama, Hillary was definitely surviving the early attacks. She sounded strong and confident. But Dodd, at least inmho, took her down over an issue, any serious frontrunner should be against it. No licenses for illegal workers! It's not a damn right! It's a privlege!

EDIT: Forgot to mention, quite frankly Clinton was looking unbeatable in the primary and general election until this point. This is not something I would expect from her. What Bill must be thinking I don't know, because he is too politically smart to let this happen. For someone who was stupidly urrging Kerry to be against gay marriages in 04, how can mr. centrist let his wife be for this issue. This might be the issue that destroys her in the general.

[TheFarseer]

1. I'm against that too

We need to cut off the reasons why they come here and problem solved.

[TwilightGardener]

5. What do licenses have to do with them not coming here? They ain't crossing

the Rio Grande just to drive on our spectacular roadways.

[More Than A Feeling]

6. It's to enjoy our modern telephone system!

We need to ban illegals from buying phone service! It's a privilege, not a right!:silly:

[TwilightGardener]

10. Yep--and don't forget that the United States Postal Service can

also be a powerful draw...

[TheFarseer]

14. it's all part of the whole package

jobs and the means to get to the job. They don't come here specifically for a stolen Social Security number, but for the job that that will help them get. It's just like that with a driver's license.

[TwilightGardener]

17. I agree with stepping up border enforcement and cracking down

on employers and then waiting for them to leave by attrition--I don't think mass deportations are in the cards. But to pretend they're not here and driving is just putting your head in the sand. Reality is, we've got to figure out a smart way to deal with the problem. It's not about rewarding illegals (and I don't think a type of licensing is a reward, or an incentive to come here), it's about protecting the REST of us.

[TheFarseer]

24. I was just reading. . . . . . .

and this is kind of off on a tangent, but in the '50's, we had about a million illegals in the country and Dwight Eisenhower decided to deport them all, and this was accomplished with a much smaller number of border patrol agents than we have now in about a year. Most of them self-deported when they found out he wasn't kidding. I meant to look this up and confirm it with another source, but I haven't gotten around to it yet. Although I agree that cracking down on employers is a more likely approach.

I AM conflicted on this issue, but I just think you don't reward them in any way or else you are exacerbating the problem.

[TwilightGardener]

30. I don't think it will exacerbate the problem--

it's not an incentive to come here, or to remain here. It's a way to document and educate people who have already undertaken the "privelege" of driving--that helps you and me, not illegals. I think what really bothers people is this: to take a first step toward officially documenting and acknowledging their presence, to recognize that they are a part of our society, driving back and forth to work just like the rest of us, seems somehow like a form of amnesty. Ike could get rid of 1 million, and probably we could, too--but the problem is way bigger and more pervasive than that now--we have an entire false economy (like slavery) on the backs of these people in some parts of the country. We have social services now that didn't exist in the fifties that make it easier for them to stay. Their children aren't toted around in the farm fields anymore, they go to school here and become Americans, culturally speaking. It's just a different world, and we let it happen over the decades. It's a huge problem that will take at least a decade and several attack angles to get a grip on, probably.

[RaleighNCDUer]

47. That's the crux of it.

"It's not about rewarding illegals, it's about protecting the REST of us."

I don't want to share the road with ANYONE who doesn't have a license to drive. Giving them licenses keeps me and mine safe. They have to know the rules, know the law, know how to handle their vehicle before they get a license. Do you like driving on roads with people who don't understand the road signs?

[DCKit]

70. OK, say that's a start. Now how do you force them to buy insurance?

Been there, seen it, hit by two drunk illegals driving down a country road at 50mph. They slunk off into the bushes and the cops actually said "so what do you expect us to do?" Thankfully, nobody was badly hurt, but c'mon.

Now tell the union and non-union truckers and taxi drivers that the illegals are going to be getting commercial licenses and this will become a non-issue very quickly: They'll shut down the state of NY until Spitzer relents.

[MGKrebs]

76. That has nothing to do with the issue at hand, but...

I would expect the cops to find out who owns the car, check any associated addresses, and hopefully make an arrest. You know, do an investigation. In fact, if licenses had been issues, they might even be able to cross reference addresses.

In your scenario, the choices for the purposes of this debate are: Drunk driving with a license or drunk driving without a license.

The insurance part is a side issue. Basically, you are trying to make the point that if we can't implement something perfectly and completely we shouldn't do anything at all. Not much would ever get done if we followed that path.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

12. With all due respect, some of us live in states with a lot of undocumented immigrants

And little to no public transit. I'm not saying you don't have any in Nebraska, but I'm in Arizona and we have enough problems without adding thousands of unlicensed, uninsured drivers on the road. I believe people should be here legally, but this is NOT the way to discourage illegal immigration. :scared:

[TheFarseer]

21. Plenty of people have a license and no insurance

I got hit by one last year :(

[mrreowwr_kittty]

23. True, but if they have no license there's no chance they can be insured

I personally know several undocumented immigrants with licenses AND insurance. I'd rather keep it that way.

Sorry about your situation.

[truedelphi]

115. My views coincide with yours

I hate extending privileges to people who shouldn't get them - but since people tend to drive regardless of where they are, It is important that they have a license so they can have insurance.

[Capn Sunshine]

53. since they are here , wouldn't licensing help with a myriad of problems?

If you make them trackable they get in the system. Look, are they really here for anything more nefarious than working three lousy jobs a day to make a better life for their families? Do you really believe all the scare stories they shove down your throat?

[Romulox]

85. If immigration laws are "unenforceable", I don't see how driver's licenses will help...

We are told it is a lack of manpower/finances that prevents immigration law from being enforced. Even if we knew where every illegal immigrant in the US was, we are told DHS will not enforce the immigration laws.

So "tracking" them is of no worth...

[magnolia]

131. I agree....

...but until that happens we need to deal with the problems at hand.

When someone gets behind the wheel of a two thousand pound vehicle driving 50/60 miles an hour and I'm on the road too....I want them to have a driver's license. I want to know they've had training, have been tested and know what they are doing.

My life should not be at risk because our congress can't deal with this problem and they are too afraid to talk about it because it might hurt their political careers.

We waste too much time determining whether we are for or against...blah, blah, blah...and instead need to focus on solving problems. The best solutions are not always what you like or prefer.

[More Than A Feeling]

2. How is licensing not like giving them healthcare?

In both cases, its meant to protect the broader public. The fewer unlicensed (read: untested) people on the road, the better. Because you know, they are already here illegally, they probably need cars to go to work, they'll likely drive licensed or not. I want them licensed.

[Maat]

8. Me, too.

And, I'm most familiar with the issue - I've lived in SoCal nearly a half-century (all of my life).

In the 80's, I was hit by a car with three undocumented workers in it; they admitted as much, and fled the scene! That didn't help me any! Of course, they might have fled anyway; but, it sure would have been nice if the driver had a license and insurance. After all, it was only a minor fender-bender.

We need to cover all - in terms of health coverage and auto insurance coverage - it is what civilized, fair, just societies do.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

132. Licensing illegal immigrants won't reduce the proportion of dangerous drivers.

If an illegal immigrant is willing to drive a car without taking a test, they're also going to be willing to drive even if they take and fail one.

[gateley]

3. I hope you got a chance to see Matthews interview Biden after the debate -

he got a chance to cover way more than he did during the debate.

If you didn't and you want to see it, drop by the Biden Support Group and remind me and as soon as I find it I'll send you a link.

Biden and Dodd are both much more seasoned and experienced than Hillary or Obama (or Edwards, for that matter). I just personally feel Biden is the best.

[Superman Returns]

7. yes I did

thats why I mentioned Biden along with Dodd. I don't think he raised his hand during the debate, I'm glad I heard the post debate analysis.

[gateley]

19. I'm glad you did. If you're looking more closely at Biden and Dodd, I think

you'll like what you find. Good luck!! :7

[hedgehog]

4. It's causing a controversy here in NYS. I would like to see everyone driving a car

licensed and insured regardless of their immigration status.

[silverweb]

9. I really don't understand how it would work.

There are certain documentary and skill requirements for citizens and residents to get licenses, and I really don't understand how an illegal immigrant can comply with those requirements.

Granting a license is basically giving sanction to their illegal status, isn't it? :shrug:

[TwilightGardener]

11. Consider it a way to document them...INS can sure use that info, couldn't they?

[CTLawGuy]

128. no

in fact licensure would frustrate enforcement of the immigration laws. It would make it easier for an illegal immigrant to fraudulently obtain other papers and it would further send the message that illegal immigration is tolerated.

Not saying we have to have mass deportation. The choice between mass deportation and throwing up our hands is a false one. I'm under no illusion that we will ever be rid of all illegal immigrants, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't enforce the law as best we can.

[Purveyor]

13. It is a 'loose-loose' issue. Scant few of the voting public will endorse 'illegal's entitled to a

drivers license'...

Tune into the RW hate-radio shows today and witness the 'exploitation'...

[spag68]

15. Social security card

Everyone talks about the ss card,but it says right on it, that it is not to be used for id. I live in NY also and agree, lets get every one registered and some kind of license and find out where everyone is.

[Enrique]

16. I didn't care until Hillary took a position

now I'm STRONGLY AGAINST them!!!! :sarcasm:

[Basileus Basileon]

18. She took a position?

Coulda fooled me.

[calteacherguy]

46. What position? nt

[harun]

127. You sure about that..........

[enough already]

129. She took several positions on the issue

Which one are you against? Your head must be spinning trying to keep up.

[DURHAM D]

20. Dodd's "privilege" comment was just stupid.

The first thing I thought was - that sounds like something Bush or Newt would say. It also sounds like a white guy from a state without a large number of undocumented workers/drivers. In other words, he just doesn't get it.

The issue is identification. Every state with a large population of undocumented workers would go for identification and a driver's license. The states are trying to address this because the feds are not. It has nothing to do with guest workers or border security or anything else related to immigration. It is just about identification.

Frankly, I think Hillary accidentally found a real winning campaign issue tonight.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

25. It's also understanding of traffic laws and insurance

You have to pass a written and practical test to get a license, whether you do the test in English or another language. And you have to have a license to get insurance.

"It also sounds like a white guy from a state without a large number of undocumented workers/drivers. In other words, he just doesn't get it." Yup.

[sandnsea]

27. Connecticut - insurance capital?

Maybe not capital, but there's lots of insurance companies there I believe. I can't believe they are wanting to have to figure out how to insure drivers who are here illegally.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

32. Many of them already do have insurance

You don't need to prove citizenship to get a license in my state. The same is probably true in many other states.

[sandnsea]

34. What state is that?

I've never heard of not having to prove identification and citizenship to get a license.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

36. Arizona. Don't ask me how they do it but they do.

Maybe they show fake documents or the DMV workers don't ask for any. Either way, I'd rather see undocumented drivers licensed and insured than not.

Edit: I also have known people that came here on a visa and got a license. Maybe a lot of the undocumented people with licenses simply overstayed their visas. Your license is valid without renewal until age 65 here.

[RaleighNCDUer]

50. How would you prove citizenship?

I've been driving for 35 years and never had to prove citizenship - just residency in the state.

[sandnsea]

51. I need 3 forms of ID

From a list of various possibilities. Birth certificate, picture ID, supporting ID. Also need a social security number. The first time you got your driver's license, you probably had to show a birth certificate or some paperwork to prove you were here legally. I did.

[RaleighNCDUer]

55. As I remember it, I used my passport and SS card. Maybe my

draft card, too. As a brat, I had a passport years before I ever had a driver's license.

[sandnsea]

57. You have to be legal to get a SS card

A citizen or a legal immigrant.

[truebrit71]

92. Um...a birth certificate maybe?

:eyes:

[troubleinwinter]

49. I think you are quite correct.

One must prove one's IDENTITY and AGE, not citizenship.

That's why I think the whole "giving licenses to illegals" issue is a buncha hokem.

[sandnsea]

52. And legal residence

Which means you have to be a legal citizen. Illegals cannot get drivers licenses unless they lie or use fake identification.

[troubleinwinter]

67. I have never heard of that.

I show proof of birthdate and proof of identity.

I don't even know what "legal residence" is. I have never heard of it. I am 56 and have never shown "legal residence" to the Department of Motor Vehicles to get a license. Only proof of age and proof of identity.

Do you have a link?

[BootinUp]

68. its not hard to find

http://www.dds.ga.gov/drivers/DLdata.aspx?con=1741471757&ty=dl

http://www.dds.ga.gov/drivers/DLdata.aspx?con=1744173714&ty=dl

Information for non US Citizens

To obtain a Georgia driver's license or identification card, a non US citizen must present one of the following immigration documents that prove legal presence in the US:

1. Valid (not expired) passport with I-94 or I-551
2. Temporary resident alien card
3. Permanent resident alien card
4. Employment Authorization Card

A Georgia driver's license or identification card may be issued with an expiration date that matches the immigration documentation expiration date, but no longer than 5 years. If there is no expiration date on the immigration documentation, a license/identification card can only be issued for a period of 1 year. The cost of the license/ID is $20.

A non US citizen must present their immigration documentation every time service is requested pertaining to a driver's license or identification card. This includes renewal, replacement or name and address changes, as well as all other transactions performed by Georgia Department of Driver Services.

[Superman Returns]

26. this has nothing to do with race

look, I am against the xenophobia and racism against illegal immigrants. Frankly, they just want a better life, and who can blame them? Plus, large sectors of our economy do need them. But this is too far. If you're an illegal, don't expect citizen privleges to boot! This is just an open invitations for more and more illegal immigration, not only without punishment, but reward! Dodd is right. Biden is right.

[cuke]

90. A DL is NOT a "citizen privilige"

people here on visas get DL's all the time. Please don't use right wing rhetoric

[longjohnsilver]

119. people on visas

Maybe that is because they are not here illegally. Why is illegal such an alien concept. Remember, alot of us union dems don't go along with alot of the lefty nonsense. We want to get a handle on the border along with 60 to 70 % of voters. Nancy and Harry could run with this issue and get their ratings higher than Dick.

[themaguffin]

28. it's stupid? do you have the RIGHT to drive?

[longjohnsilver]

116. winning issue?

Durham d, you must work for rudy or hick oops i mean huckabe. new yorkers shot this down fast. spitzers daddy's billions could not help him with this issue and that is why he backed down so fast, almost as fast as hillary did in the debate. Did she not learn from John ( I actually voted for it before I voted against it ) Kerry.

[Blaze Diem]

22. Not at all alone on this subject.. Massive voter fraud set up is

what it is about. Rove is busy fixing the next election. Why he left the Bush Admin. He can devote all his time to creating ways to disenfranchise voters, as well as declare voter fraud. Will the SCourt be called on to declare the next Pres for us again?
Besides, Rove now won't be as exposed as he was in Washington DC. He's got a busy year ahead and he's working out of a private & plush office somewhere.

As for the illegals getting Drivers Lic. That is jsut another boot to the head fo rUS citizens, whether born here, or arrived through the proper channels. Citizenship is worth what anymore?
This takes more jobs away from those who drive for a living and allows businesses to hire on the cheap. And the illegals are more than happy to take a job from someone. Doesn't bother them in the least. The pride and priveledge of being a US citizen means nothing to them. Our government along with the assist of the ilegals, has demeaned that right.

[neoteric lefty]

31. wow, I think that post was a boot to the head of everyone here

The worth of citizenship is enumerated in the Constitution. Driving is a privilege with responsibilities for everyone here. You say having more documentation for those undocumented workers is a BAD thing? Can you be serious? Not only do undocumented workers take a very small % of jobs that Americans are 'willing' to do, they provide a huge positive economic impact to Americans, paid for in their blood, sweat, and tears. These 'illegals' aren't any more happy taking a job from someone than you are from getting a job that many people wanted (i.e. taking it).

"The pride and privelege of being a US citizen means nothing to them." = WOW!

Well said from someone that does not have contact with undocumented workers, or has probably never spoken to one in line at an INS center. Most of your so-called "illegals" love the American culture, strive for the American dream, and hope they can provide a better life for their children and family. I know far more citizens that I wish knew about the great fortune they had being born in this great country of ours. They decide instead to ignore their responsibilities as a citizen and take for granted everything that it stands for.

The light has been shown upon DU tonight, and some very interesting creatures (which do not belong) are showing their true colors. With that, I bid DU a fond farewell for the evening, and am off wash the xenophobia off of my body.

[Blaze Diem]

33. Well you don't speak for me. You post is so full of typical poor illrgal b.s.

I won't even bother pulling the standard illegal pandering lines out of your response to argue with you.
Quite clear you have your opinion and I have mine.
Mine is simply correct and yours is simply wrong.
Nite.

[neoteric lefty]

39. Ah well, I guess another shower is do for me after this...

call them what you will, but I know the facts and know the people that I am lucky enough to have met in my travels. Being born and raised in an area that has a large undocumented immigrant population, I have a perspective that has opened my eyes. I used to have fear in my heart and I am in no way perfect today nor 'holier-than-thou,' but as soon as I decided to open my eyes, and more importantly, my ears, I found that the fear went away and a profound understanding emerged.

Now, do we have problems with undocumented immigrants? Sure we do. I believe we do need to secure our borders, as any country should have the right to do. After that, you can move in one of three paths: keep the status-qou, mass deportations, or a path to document status for those already here. I feel the third is not only the most practical way to move forward, but the best for our country, our citizens, and YES, our 'illegal' immigrant population. Debate it all you like, but you'll find I'm right.

I'm not here to change your mind. I do not have the time nor the willpower to do it. I just ask of you to take a mental inventory of your thoughts and feelings with undocumented immigrants and the issues surrounding them. Then do a deep analysis of the whole picture. Will you change your mind? Maybe or maybe not, but its a worthy exercise nonetheless.

Off with my 'wrong' ideas to my 'incorrect' bed. Peace, brother.

edit :spelling

[Superman Returns]

43. I agree

I don't think it's practical to deport 12 million people. We need to have a process to legalize the immigrants who are not criminals, drug dealers, etc... and assimilate them. But giving them a license while still illegal? It just is wrong.

[cuke]

93. Nothing wrong about it at all

which is why those opposed have to resort to nonsensical arguments like DL's are a privilige of citizenship (they're not. people here on visas get DL's everyday), or that they shouldn't get DL's because they're breaking the law (no other crime is punished with revocation of DL) or some other fallacious reason

[longjohnsilver]

117. economic impact of illegals

I am not an economist so neo lefty could fill me in on how a family of illegals or legals for the sake of the argument can be such a positive impact. I work for a guy that had 2 illegals that had three and five kids each. they pay barely any tax and use all social services. So, even if my scenario included legals or citizens that made $10 per hour how is that positive. It seems as with the cost of atl schools per pupil spend of 12 to 14 k per student these 2 were taking much more than giving.

[CTLawGuy]

130. illlegal immigrants are a boot in the head

to all the people who have followed the law, and are waiting or have waited up to 5, 10, or 20 years for a visa to get into this country. If we tolerate illegal immigration, then why should anyone go through the visa process? Why have immigration laws at all?

If you love America you should follow its laws not try to undermine them.

[libodem]

29. yep, i hope so

those poor bastards come here to work their asses off and a lot of it is field work, driving trucks. Farm employers hide them way out in the country and they have to have a way to get into town for groceries. Get off your high horse. Think of them as human beings first, slave laborers second. umkay? They f-ing get arrested for not having licenses. It's the least we can do. Now they are going to be jailed before they get sent back. They wouldn't be here if some white prick weren't hiring them. Some Republikan is giving them a job picking up spuds and driving beet trucks for a reason. It ain't glamorous work.

[Sukie1941]

35. Give them a license to go back where they came from

There are legal ways to get into the United States.

We have laws against illegal immigration.

I worked at our county jail as a booking clerk, and most of the people coming through the sally port were hispanic men who were dealing drugs in our community. Their pockets were crammed with cash which we had to return to them when they bailed out an hour later.

We will see more and more illegals coming into the U.S. More and more crime.

[MADem]

37. I think we ought to license all visitors. And I think the licenses oughta look DIFFERENT from the

ones that US citizens get.

Really, it's stupid. Someone can be visiting here for six months or what have you, without the need for a visa, or be a college student from overseas for four or more years, and if they need to drive, we need to establish that they know how to so do, rather than having them sneak around without the document. I know some people have international drivers' licenses, but a lot of people don't either.

Make the thing a different color, or put a different background on the picture, or do something to distinguish them. It's a way to get a handle on immigrant numbers, certainly--we're not doing such a hot job nowadays...

[Blaze Diem]

41. I agree with your idea. AND it would identify all illegals who

attempt to vote in our elections. Thus taking the burden of prooving legal status out of the hands of the voter regsitration committees.
THUS solving KKKarl Roves' plan for declaring voter fraud & stealing yet another election.

A simple look at the dr lic. would immediately identify those not eligible to vote.
How easy was that.
Karl may not allow this simple method to take place, however. Kinda messes up his plan for the SCourt declaring the next President.

[MADem]

118. When I lived in Italy, I had to get a 'patente'--and IIRC, when I lived in Japan, I had

to get some sort of documentation to drive, as well as display a yellow and green "I'm an IDIOT" triangle on the back of my car for six months or a year (somewhat equivalent to big L for Learner that the Brits have or had).

Other countries place restrictions on visitors who drive, so why not do it that way? My Italian "You ain't one of us" license was entirely different from that of an Italian, but it accomplished the same purpose--it permitted me to drive in that country legally.

[cuke]

38. Hopefully

It's a matter of public safety

[Eurobabe]

40. No

licenses for illegal aliens is ridiculous.

Maybe these people need to read INS regulations.

[lvx35]

42. No. The corporate elite want to decrease the power of our Nation State.

They want a world with no geographical borders, but instead borders drawn between people on the basis of class. Any non-corporate Dem would be a fool not to fight illegals. If want Mexicans here, then fight for legislation which allows them to come here legally, so they can JOIN UNIONS and VOTE.

[ShortnFiery]

44. Nope, I think we are the silent majority.

I have friends who are 2nd and 3rd generation Latinos (Mexico and Puerto Rico). They don't wish for people who came in this country on an illegal basis to be pushed to the front of the line NOR have Driver's licenses. :shrug:

[calteacherguy]

45. At first I was against it, but Obama gave a concise and reasonable reason for it.

It's a safety issue, bottom line. I appreciated his candor.

[BrightKnight]

48. Legalize and regulate it. - n/t

[BootinUp]

54. I sense that she felt Spitzer needed a little help

I wish she hadn't done that, on the other hand, its not going to be a killer issue since she has no decision to make on it at the State level anyways.

[Bluebear]

56. "Illegals"? Certainly you're not referring to human beings?

[Superman Returns]

58. I never said they weren't

And I am against those who use the issue of undocumented workers to spout xenophobic and racist ideology. I understand these people are simply striving for a better life. But they are not citizens. And therefore, they are not due or owed the privelege to have an American license. It's not their right.

[Bluebear]

59. But reducing them to one word: "Illegal". An action can be illegal. A human being can't be.

It denigrates their humanity to refer to them as such.

[Superman Returns]

60. well I apologize

I just figured my subject line couldn't be too long before it screwed up the forum.

[Major Hogwash]

66. That's what they are called out here.

Cry me a river about their humanity.

[Bluebear]

69. "Cry me a river about their humanity." - shame on you.

[CyberPieHole]

71. Bluebear, you always seem to be spot-on on civil rights issues...

I agree with you 100%. Cheers to you.:toast:

[Bluebear]

72. Thank you CPH

[LanternWaste]

82. The one who comes over...

The one who comes over to my apartment isn't called an "illegal", she's called Michelle. Maybe the next time we go out to dinner, I'll introduce her "The illegal person I'm dating" rather than by her name...

I mean of course you're right-- why should I worry about her humanity...? :sarcasm:

(Don't worry though-- she's not after your job)

[Bluebear]

123. Gloriously progressive thought here sometimes, eh?

:eyes:

[bunkerbuster1]

94. and they call the darker ones "Niggers" out there?

Is that what we'all oughta call them, out of respect for the racist imbeciles you live with?

[shenmue]

78. They are being called that because they broke the immigration law.

Stop with this shit.

No one is calling it illegal to be a human being. Stop with that cliched, corny bullshit.

They ran over the border. That's why they're called illegal immigrants.

[Bluebear]

80. Per your sig line, you certainly aren't nice.

Have you ever broken the law? Gotten a speeding ticket? Should we dismiss you and call you an "illegal"? As if that is a noun?

I saw a story on TV yesterday about a couple who came from Colombia 18 years ago, applying for political asylum. They were denied, and though appeals were allowed to stay. Meanwhile, they opened a business, ward, raised two sons who can now stay as they are are being deported, for no good earthly reason.

Cliched, corny bullshit is in the eye of the beholder.

[LanternWaste]

83. Much like ALL speeders are called Illegal Drivers...

Much like ALL speeders are called Illegal Drivers... wait a sec-- they're not. Well, we better start doing that immediately to maintain moral and intellectual consistency.

[truebrit71]

91. Those human beings are most definitely 'illegal'.

They are in this country 'illegally'....

Not a very hard conceot to grasp...surely?

And no, they shouldn't get driver's licenses...in fact, if they apply for one they should be detained and deported...

You know, like applying the laws that are currently on the books...

[LanternWaste]

98. The concept that isn't too hard to catch is this one:

The concept that isn't too hard to catch is this one:

A person is not illegal (not since the Abolitionists won...)

The action may be illegal, but the person is not.

[truebrit71]

104. According to the laws currently on the books your assertion is wrong..

They are here illegally, therefore they are illegal...

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LibDemAlways]

61. Not having a license doesn't mean an undocumented

person isn't going to drive without one. I personally prefer that all of the drivers I share the road with be licensed. This is a safety issue.

[babylonsister]

62. Bookmarked. I am for licenses for illegals despite what you say.

I don't care what is lost. Please tell me who is for what, why, etc.?

[Hippo_Tron]

63. Bush's victory in 2004 was partly due to carrying a larger than usual percentage of Hispanics

And that was largely due to the fact that illegal immigration was not a major issue at the time. Your fears about losing some moderates misses the bigger picture.

Yes, some moderates will base their vote on this issue and some will stay at home because of it. But the fact is that every time we make the Republicans take an anti-immigration stance, is an opportunity to make them look like xenophobes and turn the Hispanic community off to them.

[Hekate]

64. Proving they know how to drive is a bad thing how?Giving the cops some documentation is a bad thing?

This should be part of a complete overhaul in our immigrant-worker system, but sometimes you just have to focus on public safety, and making drivers get licenses is all about safety.

Sometimes you just have to start where you can and do what's in front of you.

Hekate

[Romulox]

86. Fake name; made up address. Identity theft is part and parcel of illegal immigration.

This is a way to "launder" a phony ID.

[Hekate]

111. Not so easy to fake passing the written and driving part of the DL test...

That's the part I really want to see: proof of having passed a United States driving test, so we have some assurance that these people know how to navigate our streets. If someone wants a US driving license, they should have to be able to pass the test.

What I find curious is that undocumented workers are asking for the very kinds of documentation -- driver's licenses and bank accounts -- that would make it easier, not harder, for the Keystone Kops we call Homeland Security to keep track of them.

Hekate

[depakid]

124. If you use false documents at the DMV, you can AND will go to jail

in my state, at least.

So that's bullshit argument.

[Major Hogwash]

65. No, it's a stupid idea.

It's a slippery slope giving them identity cards while they are here illegally.
If they want a fuckin' license, then they have to become a citizen first.

[obamian]

73. Hillary did not say it should be done

Didn't you watch the debate? :sarcasm:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDEh2XWSheg

[RufusTFirefly]

74. Perhaps those "illegals" come here in search of nouns? n/t

[liberal hypnotist]

75. I don't want to seem simplistic, but...

I sold cars in Florida to hundreds of Mexicans without proper documentation. They simply brought a friend, neighbor or boss to buy the car. I support all drivers being licensed. At least they have a general idea of what is going on. Other than that they drive with a phony license.

Oh yea, why are we as a nation so against illegal immigrants. I grew up in a neighborhood of Irish, Greek, Italian and Polish immigrants. Many arrived illegal and worked their way into our society. Ask your grandparents how many illegals they worked with.

[shenmue]

77. No, you're not.

If people break the law, they should not be rewarded. Plain and simple.



However, where do you get off saying "Mr." Clinton has "let his wife" do anything? What is this, 1953?


:dunce:

[vssmith]

79. What is it about the word ILLEGAL that people do not understand

I hear the arguments for the licensing of illegals and they make some sense but.....

[LanternWaste]

84. And yet on DU

And yet on DU (for the most part), we rail against the fact that pot is illegal. I s'pose that when that particular conversation comes up, you'll be in the forefront of that discussion saying, "Just Say No! What is it about the word ILLEGAL that people do not understand".

[Romulox]

88. So let's all just follow whatever law we feel like!

I tell you one thing: once these "no doc" driver's licenses are available, I want one. Why should illegal aliens be the only ones with a cheap, state-sanctioned way to commit identity fraud? What's to stop native born con-men from obtaining fake IDs?

[LanternWaste]

96. Don't the native-born con-men already have fake ID's?

Don't the native-born con-men already have fake ID's?

It's cute how a person can take a specific statement and then overgeneralize it to the point where it means anything they want it to...

[Romulox]

99. They don't have these "no doc" fake IDs issued by the State of NY. Yet.

"It's cute how a person can take a specific statement and then overgeneralize it to the point where it means anything they want it to..."

If this isn't an empty generality, I don't know what is. How about responding to points I've actually made?

[vssmith]

89. I support legalizing mj also

but while it is illegal one will have to accept the consequences.

Additionally your argument could be used to enable all kinds of illegal activities.

[LanternWaste]

97. it's not an argument

it's not an argument-- only an appeal to apply intellectual consistency. If intellectual consistency enables illegal activities, then I guess we better outlaw it.

[Romulox]

100. I agree. People get away with jaywalking. How DARE we prosecute murderers?

My guess is that you don't have a copy of Bartlett's.

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

[LanternWaste]

113. Illegal walkers. Guess I need to add that to my lexicon.

Illegal walkers. Guess I need to add that to my lexicon.

My guess is that I don't reach for quotations to better apply the lipstick on a pig .

[illinoisprogressive]

81. no. Dodd and Biden are against it. I think alot of dems are.

the whole illegal thing is such a touchy subject on everything. there is not a good answer for anything.
We have the being open and accepting vs. some realities and hard facts and it's tough.
No dem can escape this whole subject without upsetting someone.

[Romulox]

87. You're not alone. This is the worst kind of pandering.

It's laughable to think that millions of people who are driving w/o licenses and insurance will become better drivers (or more accountable) with a waive of Spitzer's pen. :eyes:

Nothing to stop people from getting a license and skipping the insurance.

[cuke]

95. So many logical fallacies, so little time

No one has siad that a DL and insurance will make one a better driver with the waive of a pen. If you had a real argument, you wouldn't have to rely on fallacies.

"Nothing to stop people from getting a license and skipping the insurance."

In NYS you need insurance to get the car registered. W/o insurance, no registration and no license plates for the car.

Maybe you can come up with a fact based argument next time

[Romulox]

101. People seem to be driving w/o licenses, registration, or insurance NOW.

So, per Eliot Spitzer, the lack of any of these does not seem to be an effective barrier to illegal aliens driving.

And just a tip: insults add nothing to your argument. Many people won't tell you that as civilly as I will.

[cuke]

102. You just changed your argument, You won't defend your argument

You claimed that getting DL's will not force them to buy insurance. I pointed out that with or without DL's, they need insurance to register the car which blew your claim out of the water. Instead of acknowledging your mistake, you're trying to hide it by pretending your argument was about keeping illegal aliens from driving

tip: If you won't defend your own arguments, don't expect to have any cred

[Romulox]

105. "they need insurance to register the car..." But there is nothing forcing them to register the car.

Unless you can explain why illegal aliens, who are presently driving without license, insurance, or registration will "need" to register their cars simply because it becomes possible for them to get a license, your argument is illogical on its face.

Again, my advice was friendly; you mean for your hostility to mask the weakness of your argument, but it tends to highlight these weaknesses instead.

[cuke]

106. You need license plates to drive around

You get them when you register the car, which requires insurance. In NYS, undocumented residents do not "presently drive around without license, insurance, or registration". I don't know about where you live, but in NYS it's not happening. You assumed that to be true, even though it is not.

And my hostility is at intellectually deceitful arguments. When you post reasonable arguments instead of fallacies, my hostility will immediately disappear.

[Romulox]

107. Per Eliot Spitzer, millions of illegal immigrants are managing to drive without any of those

So again, issuing licenses will not prevent them from continuing to do so.

It reminds me of an episode of the Simpsons, in which Bart (age 10?) decides to take the family car for a joyride. He and his friends fret about not having a driver's license for a moment, but Bart decides to try to start the car anyhow. Hoping against hope, he turns the key. "It starts!" he exclaims.

Like Bart, millions of illegal immigrants seem to be operating their automobiles just fine without the benefit of licenses, registration, or insurance. Allowing them to get these is not the same as requiring them to do so, nor has Spitzer proposed any additional penalties for unauthorized driving.

[cuke]

109. I haven't heard him say that,

and even if he did, it's not true. Argument by Authority is also a logical fallacy

And I know about the penalties for unauthorized driving. They pull you out from the car and tow it away. Problem solved

People commit crimes all the time. People muder, but that's not the fault of the laws. Regardless of what the law says, there will be a few who somehow manage to sidestep the rules. For example, you can fail to re-register and re-insure your car and just keep the old plates on the car. But when you get stopped (and you will get stopped in NYS) your car will be confiscated.

[Romulox]

110. Well then I'd like to put the extra effort into enforcing the existing law

Boiled down to its essence, this argument has nothing whatever to do with traffic safety. It's completely illogical to argue that people who currently drive illegally will become safer drivers *if* they choose to obtain a license. If they are driving without licenses now, they will be able to drive without licenses into the foreseeable future. This suggests ineffective enforcement of existing law. There is no reason to believe future laws will be any easier to enforce than the current laws which go unenforced.

Instead, this argument is about whether the world should be made a little more convenient for illegal immigrants and the corporations that exploit them. I say no.

[cuke]

112. More fallacies

1) This isn't about making people better drivers. I don't know where you got that. It sounds like a straw man, another fallacy

2) In order to get a license, you need to take a driver's test. This won't make anyone drive better, but it might get a small number of incompetent drivers off the road. But again, this has nothing to do with the insurance issue, or the identity issue, which is what the proposal is really about

3) No law can stop an unlicensed driver from getting into a car and driving it. No one has said it can. This is another straw man. We have laws against murder, and people still murder.

4) You don't get to decide what the argument is about. It is about allowing undocumented residents get licenses. It has nothing to do with convenience

Once again, you have resorted to intellectually deceitful arguments because you don't have any good reason to oppose this because you can't point to any harm in allowing them to have DL's

[Romulox]

120. Just FYI: a "fallacy" is a mistaken belief. Opinions and predictions can't be "fallacies".

"Once again, you have resorted to intellectually deceitful arguments because you don't have any good reason to oppose this because you can't point to any harm in allowing them to have DL's"

Aside from the melodrama of speaking like this on an internet message board, it is not incumbent upon me to prove why law-breakers shouldn't be accommodated; instead, Eliot Spitzer et al. are arguing that granting driver's licenses to illegal aliens will somehow benefit that average driver. This is absurd on its face, and your inability to locate any benefit to US citizens whatever in the proposal is the obvious result.

<Insert grandiose and gratuitous insult at the end to paste over any holes in my forgoing argument! :rofl: >

[cuke]

121. I'm referring to logical fallacies

They are mistaken belies about logic, and about how things work and opinions can be based on logic that is flawed.

And again, you introduce yet another straw man argument. No one has said that this policy is meant to benefit drivers. It benefits the public to have only licensed drivers on the roads in cars that are registered and insured. This policy doesn't completely solve the problem, but it does further that goal and there is no good reason not to do this.

And since you seem to be having a problem understandig the justification for this policy, I will repeat it:

It benefits the public to have only licensed drivers on the roads in cars that are registered and insured.

[PollM]

103. Democratic Debate in Philadelphia - Who was least honest

"I think that our responsibility as presidential candidates is to be in 'tell the truth' mode all the time," Edwards said.

Which candidate do you believe was the least honest & least forthcoming during the Debate?
---> http://www.youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=846

.

[jzodda]

108. Maybe you never got into a car accident with one

I did and I got royally screwed because he had no license or insurance or money. In any event the proposal now is for 3 tiered system in NY State , which is where I live and where I had my car accident.

[LanternWaste]

114. I doubt you're the only one.

I doubt you're the only one. I'm sure there are many people on DU who want to make everything illegal for an undocumented worker to more easily get them out of country, out of sight and out of mind.

[conservdem]

125. You are far from the only Dem against them. You're in the majority

I am against it and think this issue will ruin are chances if HC win the primary. I support Biden who is against the idea.

Check out the following poll and you will see that even here at DU the majority is against the idea.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3678400

[ginchinchili]

126. No, you're not. A lot of us feel that way.

[JohnnyBoots]

133. I agree with you. Driving is a privillege. They broke the law to get here, that should not equal an

automatic driver's license. I am OK with people who are at least trying to follow the formal process to citizenship having one though.