Hilliary or bust huh?

[againes654]

Well, this morning I am so frustrated that I really do not know what to do. I know what I plan to do in the primaries, and I thought I knew what I would do regardless of who won the nomination. Well HRC made up my mind for me yesterday.

A question to all that blindly support HRC, Why? I just don't understand it. I think as a whole DU is against the continued war with Iraq. I also think that as a whole, DU is against attacking Iran. I would even venture a guess that even Hilliary supporters are against a war with Iran.

Do you not see the path we are headed down? Do you not see that by sitting in the middle, Hilliary is trying to cater to both right and left, and that by blindly supporting her you are making it possible for her to continue to cater to the right and still have her supporters on the left.

Why will we not stand up for what is right? Are we really ready for a change, or do you just want to see a Dem in the WH? The lesser of 2 evils dose not mean that it isn't evil.

This election is one of the absolute most important in our country's history. There are only 2 paths to go. The right way and the wrong way. Just because your candidate has a D behind their name does not mean they will lead you down the right path.

What do you stand for, the truth, or the lesser of 2 evils?

:rant:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

1. Who Should We Support Since Obama And Edwards Won't Promise A Withdrawl Either?

Thank you

[againes654]

2. Kucinich

Just take a look at his platform. With an unbiased eye, and unconcerned with whether he could get elected or not.

www.dennis4president.com

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. Thank You

Too

[againes654]

4. No problem

:hi:

[2rth2pwr]

6. I think that it is important that there be a choice and Kucinich has a

view different from the others. If his positions ring true with the Party, why is he not able to capitalize?

[againes654]

8. Too many write him off

by saying that he is "too far left" "unelectable" or "it will never happen".

I guess, hell I really don't know. My honest opinion is that the "party" doesn't represent what it once stood for. It is no longer the party of the people. Dennis represents what the party used to be, and I guess some just feel that he "isn't tough enough"

See my thinking is that we need to really find out why the "terrorists" hate us so much. I mean the real reason, not "they hate us for our freedoms". That isn't it. I think Dennis is the only one that realizes that, but so many have been "terrorized" by our own government that they think the only way to deal with terrorists is to blow the shit out of a country. A country by the way that had nothing to do with 9/11.

But what do I know :shrug:

[superkia]

42. He also doesnt get national non stop advertising.

Ask anyone in business how much national non stop advertising would help their business, it gets the word out and your product to many people. Comparing two similar business' sales against each other with one having national non stop advertising and the other having next to none and there will be no comparison in sales. If you cant see that, you must not work in an industry or department with advertising or it just skips over your head why the kids want a certain cereal.

If Dennis Kucinich had the same advertising for his message, Americans would welcome him with open arms. He speaks for the people at a time when everyone is frustrated with government and we haven't had a president speak for us in a long time.

[hisownpetard]

53. I agree with a lot of his positions, but wasn't he completely pro-life at one point

and then, prior to running for office, did a 180 on his position. (Please correct me if I'm wrong - I just remember reading something
to that effect a while back and don't know if it's true).

Also - I think it would help a lot if, after giving a damn good response in the debates, he didn't (always!) give a little grin, like a third grader
who just wrote the right answer on the board.

I do admit, though, that I like him more and more.

[Ken Burch]

77. Too many people agree with him but can't believe that his views ARE actually popular.

If you look at the polls, Kucinich's positions have, in most cases, widespread support. Single-payer healthcare has strong support, an early withdrawal from Iraq has strong support. There are a lot of other examples.

It's the defeatism and lack of political self-confidence that a lot of progressives have, which makes them feel obligated to support the media-anointed frontrunning candidates simply because the media has repeatedly screamed at them that only THOSE candidates could actually win. The corporate media thus creates factoids on the ground.

[Dinger]

9. Without Clark, & Maybe Gore, I'm Looking hard At Kucinich

I feel like I'm being railroaded, and I don't like it.

[RangerRK]

19. another presentation of his platform

I think this is a faster overview of Kucinich on the issues
http://dk2008.us/issues

[againes654]

20. Thank you

:hi:

[hedgehog]

7. Maybe I'm a victim of wishful thinking, but what I heard is that

Obama and Edwards want to pull the troops out ASAP, but they won't make any promises in the event that the situation shifts considerably between now and the election. What I think Hillary is planning is a long term presence in the area.

[againes654]

10. And how effin convenient

for the repukes if something does change between now and then. That is why I don't like sitting in the middle trying to please everyone.

If Obama for example said I will pull the troops out within 6 months of my taking office, unless there is a dramatic change between now and then. Then follow that up with what he would qualify for a dramatic enough change to justify staying there. I might have more respect for that than fence sitting. I have no respect for fence sitting.

I for one want a president that says what he believes, and will stand up for what he believes, not lay down when a corporate interest asks you to.

[Capn Sunshine]

36. Don't forget Richardson

He's got a withdrawal plan on the docket right now.

He wants unconditional withdrawal.

[Desertrose]

5. I'm sick of the "lesser of two evils" thingie

I want someone I can vote for with hope and feel good about my choice...not like why am I even bothering.

Dennis is a clear choice for change IMHO.

[rinsd]

11. Who is blindly supporting Hillary?

Because people aren't jumping on the broken bandwagon that is the Kucinich campaign?

If he can't run a campaign, how will he run a country?

[Red Zelda]

12. Kucinich?

Dennis has no chance at all. What was that last night? Vote at 16? Right, Dennis. Go back to that dead city by the lake and buy some electric companies.

[againes654]

14. And you support who?

[Red Zelda]

74. Anybody but Kucinich

...you can keep Hillary, too.
I do like Obama, Edwards, Dodd.

[Ken Burch]

78. Could you please tell me why you not only hate Kucinich but also hate CLEVELAND?

The city is actually in the process of reviving. And most people there feel Kucinich was RIGHT to refuse to privatize the electric utility(the crime that the banks and the media drove him out of office over).

Please, for the love of God, explain your irrational rage.

[juajen]

65. If Dennis came out for the legalization of pot, he would have the16 yr old vote, for sure

Sixteen year olds, for the most part, are very superficial; too young to vote, IMHO. I also think they should not drink or have to serve in the military until 21 years of age.

[Red Zelda]

75. With each sentence he utters

Kucinich sinks further into the bucket of political parody. The debates would gain much more credibility if he just stayed away.

[Ken Burch]

79. Again...could you please at least TRY to explain why you hate the man so passionately?

All you do is abuse him and his supporters without explanation. You even abuse the city the man lives in.
Either explain yourself or give it a rest, willya?

[againes654]

13. Well then let me ask you 3 questions

and I really want to know, I am not flame throwing.

Do you support a war with Iran?
How do you feel about HRC's vote yesterday?
Why is the Kucinich campaign broken, and what exactly is broken about it?

[rinsd]

16. No, Disagreed with it, many things

He has a good following on the internet and has failed miserably to capitalize on it from his weak fundraising efforts online to his not getting a new website up until the middle of this summer when he was the 1st candidate to announce. He knew he had an uphill battle for the nomination, that he had to run a well disciplined and organized campaign.

[cobalt1999]

23. My take on your questions:

Do you support a war with Iran? No, and I haven't seen any candidate support it either.

How do you feel about HRC's vote yesterday? In spite of all the gnashing of teeth here, this isn't a declaration of war with Iran, nor is it a first step. I understand the reasoning behind the vote, if I were a senator, I'd have to think hard about it.

Why is the Kucinich campaign broken, and what exactly is broken about it? Lots. First off, what is his strategy? Small money candidates typically concentrate on the early states and attempt to build momentum to increase fund raising and media exposure before the big states vote. He has been flying all over (even Hawaii of all places) without any plan, organization, or strategy. Doesn't bode well for running the country.

[againes654]

28. in voting AYE Clinton spoke volumes to me and many others

That freaking resolution has so many loopholes in it that I could drive my car through it. My prediction, we will be at war with Iran before the GE. I hope I am wrong, I really do. The incoming president will then have 2 wars to contend with. Makes it even harder to bring our troops home. That is all I really want. I want my cousin, and friends to come home. I want the dying to stop, and I want the fixing of THIS country to start. Can we just fix the problems here before we go trying to save the world?

[cobalt1999]

33. They'll be home as soon as a democrat is in office.

I think you are wrong but passionate. Passion is good, just don't let it cloud your thinking.

[againes654]

40. So are you telling me that

regardless of which Democrat gets the nomination, the GE is a lock for them? And are you also telling me that regardless of which Democrat wins said nomination, and wins said GE they will pull all of our toops out and bring them home? My vision is clouded, huh.

[cobalt1999]

67. That is what I'm telling you.

Clinton, Obama, Edwards all are slam dunk wins, and, yes, each of them will get the troops out (the timing will be tough, but they will do it because they won't get their second term without doing it.).

[Ken Burch]

80. No one who isn't elected antiwar can possibly govern as antiwar.

It just isn't possible.

[hisownpetard]

54. I couldn't believe that Russert didn't make more of Hillary's vote. When I first heard

that she voted 'Aye,' I thought I heard wrong.
Is there any half-way decent excuse that she puts forward for that vote?

[Windy]

18. Rinsd, you have tunnel vision...

You continue to support her after her Kyl Lieberman vote.
The amendment is step one for war. Don't tell me that it isn't because it says military action within iraq and not iran. We can launch missles from inside Iraq to hit iranian targets. If they retaliate, then its all out war. There are MANY loopholes in the amendment that the administration can use. They can also couple it with the previous iraq war resolution that your candidate voted for and will not admit was a mistake.

Clinton is being rammed down our throats by the media. The Polls they reference frankly MUST be from a flawed sampling. With the advent of Caller ID, no one answers their telephone anymore unless the number is recognized. Who are they polling? I HOPE AND PRAY that Mrs. Clinton and the right leaning media are very surprised in the primaries for the sake of this country, the soldiers abroad, my children and my grand children.

[kenfrequed]

49. Too true

That amendment is part of the congressional creep towards war with Iran. Despite my misgivings about my own Senator Kloubachar, she did the right thing on this one and voted agaisnt the damned thing.

[rinsd]

52. Really? everyone has caller id?

What other absolutes that are laughable on their face would you like to offer?

[Windy]

70. Most people have it now... sorry

that is fact.

[kenfrequed]

26. If he can't afford a huge campaign

How can he afford to be generous with the corporate donors who made that campaign possible?

[rinsd]

27. Yes instead of doing actual grassroots fundraising with an eager internet base,

it would be better to let your campaign meander along with little or no direction.

:eyes:

[kenfrequed]

35. I cannot believe it...

Hillary is the ultimate establishment candidate. She has more corporate donorship than just about any Democrat running right now.


For one of her supporters to give advice about how to run a grass roots campaign is the height of irony.

[rinsd]

38. Hey Dennis might as well take my advice. He's done a piss poor job of it on his own.

Or do you think taking 7 months to launch your campaign website when you had great support via the internet last time was a smart move?

[kenfrequed]

44. I think its amusing

that a candidate that can afford all of this and has the high blessing of the media has managed to convince a bunch of people of the inherent rectitude of the obviously unbalanced process that she benefited from.

[rinsd]

45. Much like your candidate

Instead of taking stock of what one can and cannot do tis better to blame the boogey man.

[kenfrequed]

47. You keep getting more amusing

Your candidate seems to bring up terror more han any other candidate. The irony is now butter Pecan in richness.

[cobalt1999]

15. The world is not so black and white...

"There are only 2 paths to go. The right way and the wrong way." I don't know how old you are, but you sound pretty young to have this viewpoint.

The reality is this country is in serious trouble caused by the Bush Administration. It's going to take a tough, practical, and experienced person to pull us out of the situation we are in. This isn't time for dreaming, this is time for hard practical answers.

Who is most likely to actually get some results?

I'll go with Clinton, Obama, or Edwards has having the best chance, because we can't screw this one up or we may never recover.

[againes654]

17. Ok so I have a hypothetical to pose to you

I am 29. I do stand by what I said though. I think any continuation of this stupid war in Iraq is a huge mistake. I think any kind of attack or war with Iran is a huge mistake. I think that by saying that you will vote for whoever gets results could backfire. I will not be a part of that. Maybe I am wrong, but what if I am right.

Hypothetical: (I don't know about you, but I do not currently have any kind of health care coverage) What if in 2010 we still don't have a real solution to the health care crisis? What if we are still at war with Iraq, and with Iran at that point? What if we are in a depression at that point? What if we are still illegally detaining, and torturing people in the name of the "war on terror"?

How will you feel then? Will you still stand by your support of the candidate that gave you the best chance to have a Democrat in office instead of the candidate that offered REAL change?

[cobalt1999]

21. IMHO, you are jumping to a false conclusion.

You assume Hillary, Obama, or Edwards will continue the war in Iraq for a long time and/or they will attack Iran. It's not going to be an easy extraction from Iraq and an experienced and realistic leader isn't going to say it will happen on a certain timeline without knowing all the events that drive those timelines. I'd be seriously concerned about any candidate that says otherwise.

As for Health Care, give me an imperfect solution lead by those who know how to work with congress and have the ability to get it passed. Starting down the path for universal health care is what is most important. Frankly, Dennis's plan, as nice as it sounds, has as much chance of being passed as Kucinich does of being elected....none.

So, where will you be in 2010. Hopefully out of Iraq and with some kind of health care plan in place. Will it be perfect? No, but it can be worked on from there.

As for "candidate that offered REAL change", that's why I'm going with Clinton first (Obama, Edwards in second place) because they will implement change so it will be REAL vs. a dream.

[againes654]

22. Well then IMHO

you will get what you deserve. I truly hope that Clinton will change as much as people would like to believe. I however, will NEVER vote for her. That simple. Call me what you won't, but I will stand by my beliefs no matter what, and I will not roll over just to put a D in office. Sorry, but I just won't do it. Hilliary's health care plan does not help me that I can see, and yes I do assume that they will continue whatever war bushco as going at the time. I base that on 2002 and 2003 leading up to Iraq. Hilliary is to hell bent on pleasing the right, and is rolling over on issues that are extremely important to me.

[cobalt1999]

25. I hope so.

Because I deserve a lot. :)

[kenfrequed]

31. Well if you are already sitting pretty

at 100k a year or so you will probably get alot out of "The Hill." For the rest of us poor slobs we probably won't see a lot of real change.

[LynneSin]

24. Wait - did i just sleep through the entire primaries and it's general election time now?

Like too many others you've confused 'blind support for hillary' with 'those of us fed up with this shit about posters whiny how they won't vote for Hillary if she gets the nomination'.

I don't think there are that many who are blind supporters but I can assure you there is a boatload of us fed up with this shit that we're suppose to dump the democrat party if HRC gets the nomination.

This is a webforum for democrats

[kenfrequed]

29. Well

It is the language of the media and the Hill campaign. Most of the people I talk to say she "Is the candidate" or that "She WILL win" (capitalization included). When faced with that and the media-induced marginalization of Kucinich how the heck are we supposed to feel the process is remotely honest.

I mean, my preferred candidate is being knocked off most of the 'official' (and deeply flawed) polls before even the first primary or caucus has been held. What do you expect people of said political persuasion to think or feel? Included and respected? Gimme a break!

[LynneSin]

32. Yes, his is what we've been dealing with since like 1992

The media insisting that Hillary is going to be president.

Stop drinking the damn grape koolaid!!

[kenfrequed]

41. Uhm

I am merely making a point here about the relative fairness of the media at this point. The instrument that is supposed to inform us is instead playing personalities and lstching onto its favorites.

How the hell is the average voter supposed to figure out about the candidacies of Richardson, Gravel, Kucinich, Biden or Dodd? If the only names they hear on the media again and again are Obama and Clinton (and sometimes Edwards) who do you think is going to lead in the polls?

Many of the people I talk to about who they like don't even know ANY of the candidates except Clinton and Obama. Of course ABC news doesn't help at all.

[LynneSin]

51. As someone who supports Biden - I guess we just keep trying to push his names

But I refuse to buy into this concept that Hillary is the chosen one.

I can say this much - if it is one of the main 3 then I'll be happy to support that person. I just refuse to give up without a fight first

[truebrit71]

30. Then I guess it's bust.

'Cos she won't get a dime from me...

[againes654]

37. Me either

and she won't get my vote in either the primary or the GE, not that she really give a shit what us poor little people do anyway.

[emilyg]

48. And I just donated again to her.

[truebrit71]

50. Good for you. I'll donate to a Democrat, you can keep on doing what you're doing...

..

[Ken Burch]

81. You hate activists and strong principles that much?

You think power without progressive commitments can be WORTH having?

Why settle for the slightest change possible?

Why support a candidate who thinks the Democratic Party's politics and strategy should be, essentially, shame-based?

[Capn Sunshine]

34. Oh, I see it

and that's why I'm fighting that war-friendly hawk until all the other candidates drop out

[SIMPLYB1980]

39. I stopped paying attention right here!

"A question to all that blindly support HRC, Why?"


That is not a way to start any kind of debate on the subject of weather Clinton should be our candidate. I haven't picked a candidate yet, I'll wait till closer to the primaries, though I like all the front runners. Make an argument without a statement like that and maybe I'll pay attention to you. If not I'll consider you a troll and move on.



Also "There are only 2 paths to go. The right way and the wrong way" sounds a lot like the republican talking point, "Your either with us, or against us."



"Hilliary is trying to cater to both right and left" Do moderates scare you that much? You do know they helped us win the last election don't you?

"What do you stand for, the truth, or the lesser of 2 evils?"
More Rovian tactics! It's not a black and white world.

Anyway have fun with you temper tantrum.
Hope you enjoyed the venom you spew on this site coming back to you in return, I know I did.



I thought this was democratic underground! If I wanted to read some "democrat" bashing I'll go to Freeperville.

[againes654]

43. Ok, just so I understand

You tell me that by saying there is a right and a wrong path to go after the election, I am a repub talking point, and that is what I intend, and then you call me a freeper. Ha. I guess I have to agree with you in order to not be a freeper.

There are those that will blindly support Hilliary. If that turns you off, then I didn't have much of a chance anyway. You would consider me a troll why? Because I asked a question that offended you?

IMHO, if Hilliary starts too far to the right, then when she has to compromise, it will move even further to the right. I have stated that I am simple in what I want.
I want out of the war in Iraq.
I want health care, not health insurance
I want cheaper gas.
I want my RIGHTS back.
I want my country back, and I don't believe Hilliary is the one to do that, but if that makes me a freeper in your eyes, then fine.

[SIMPLYB1980]

46. Yawn.

"You tell me that by saying there is a right and a wrong path to go after the election, I am a repub talking point, and that is what I intend, and then you call me a freeper. Ha. I guess I have to agree with you in order to not be a freeper."

Just doing the same thing that you were doing to Hillary supporters. Don't like it when it's you on the receiving end do you?

"There are those that will blindly support Hilliary. If that turns you off, then I didn't have much of a chance anyway. You would consider me a troll why? Because I asked a question that offended you?"

How do you know that? I haven't meet anyone with blind support for her though I know many that will vote for her. I consider you a troll because of how you bashed anyone who would vote for Hillary as "Blind" Just because people here have a different opinion of Hillary than you does not mean they are blind. You also set her supporter up by basically saying that they take the wrong path if they vote for Hillary. All this sounds to me like the way republicans debate not Democrats, so yep I'm calling you a troll or at the very least someone looking to piss people off, but not debate.

"IMHO, if Hilliary starts too far to the right, then when she has to compromise, it will move even further to the right. I have stated that I am simple in what I want.
I want out of the war in Iraq.
I want health care, not health insurance
I want cheaper gas.
I want my RIGHTS back.
I want my country back, and I don't believe Hilliary is the one to do that, but if that makes me a freeper in your eyes, then fine."

So your one of those people that don't like to compromise. You know someone else doesn't like to compromise, you know who that is, King George. Personally I don't mind a little compromise if it gets us out of the cluster-fuck that we got ourselves into. I would also like to have talks with Iran and Syria, I'm sure we will have to compromise with them sometime in the near future. Republicans wont but democrats will, its one of those things that define us.

I want out of the war in Iraq.
I want health care, not health insurance
I want cheaper gas.
I want my RIGHTS back.
I want my country back, Me to and Amen for that. I think all of the democratic candidates could accomplish that especially if we support them and help them gain a supper majority in congress, instead of tearing them down to the delight of republicans. That does not make me blind.

[againes654]

55. Seems like you are the one trying to argue with me

I NEVER called Hilliary supporters freepers.

There are those that will support Hilliary no matter what. I NEVER said that EVERYONE that supports Hilliary is blind. For example, if Kucinich had voted aye on the vote yesterday, I would seriously question him, and what he stands for. I wouldn't make excuses as to why he voted that way. That is what I consider blind support.

I don't mind compromise, and I NEVER stated that I did. If compromise is inevitable, then why start in the middle. For example, I want universal, not for profit health care. If there has to be a compromise, and I realize that is probable, why would I want to start with health care that keeps insurance companies in the middle. Then when the compromise comes about, we move even farther from not for profit health care. Can you see how this is not the same as me never wanting to compromise.

Once again, NOT ALL HILLIARY SUPPORTERS ARE BLIND. That doesn't mean that there aren't some that will support her no matter what. I am allowed the opinion to disagree with her, am I not?

Make no mistake about it, I am no freeper, I am no republican, and I am not a troll despite your constant name throwing. What you have done is read my thread here, and assume those things about me. You have not given me the benefit of the doubt at all, and thrown me in with all freepers and trolls. That is "you are with me or against me" if I ever saw it.

[SIMPLYB1980]

57. What you fail to grasp is your own hypocrisy.

You can say you were not bashing anyone with your OP all you want but many will interpret it to be bashing and rightfully so. Show me one person on hear who is a blind supporter of Hillary. I'm waiting......

Hey I'm glad you are allowed opinion to disagree. I also am allowed to have the opinion that you are a hypocrite, am I not?

And as far as me "name throwing" I throw names at you to show you your own hypocrisy, but obviously you are to "blind" to see.

[Sivart]

58. Blind supporters of HRC

It has been suggested in several threads today that all members of this site are obligated to vote for hilary if she gets the nomination...whether they like her or not....because she would be the democratic candidate.

In other words....it was suggested that we should blindly vote for her purely because of her party affiliation.

I'm sure the persons making this statement would also state that if another candidate wins the nomination, the same rule should apply.....which in my opinion would still result in blindly supporting a candidate based on their party affiliation, as opoosed to how their views and ideas compare to our own.

[againes654]

59. Nope, you misquoted me

Never said I wasn't bashing. I will tell you that I am bashing Hilliary. I don't like her, and I won't vote for her. What I said is that I NEVER called Hilliary supporters freepers like you did me. You then tried to tell me that you were giving me what I was giving HRC supporters.

Me saying that SOME HRC supporters will follow her no matter what is not the same as you calling me a freeper, a troll or a repub. You can spin it all you want, but it isn't the same. Please feel free to point out my "hypocrisy". I still fail to see it.

You keep spinning all you want. You are not changing my opinion, and I obviously won't change yours.

[SIMPLYB1980]

61. Then you are as blind as those you accuse of being blind.

Read you own OP. You never used the qualifier "Some." You said "A question to all that blindly support HRC, Why?" That implies that all people that support HRC and blindly supporting her. Maybe you should edit you OP to better convey your message, but to me it was clear bashing of Hillary supporters. Glad you at least admit to the fact that you are bashing Hillary though. Bashing Hillary is a part of politics in the democratic party right now, I understand that, but bashing her supporters is an entirely different matter, and a disgusting side of internal Democratic party politics of the moment.

[againes654]

62. Again, I have to disagree

A question to all that blindly support HRC is NOT SAYING ALL THAT SUPPORT HRC ARE BLIND. What is states is clear, you just don't want to see it.

There are some on this DU board that will support Hilliary no matter what...blindly. If you support her but disagree with her on certain points that IMO is not blindly supporting her. In case you missed it, blind in this case has nothing to do with ones eyes. In this case, blindly supporting Hilliary means defending her, but not being able to answer certain questions about her campaign, and supporting her anyway. You must not be reading all the threads here on Hilliary, but I am DEFINATLY not the only one calling some blind supporters of Hilliary.

There is a Hilliary supporter that has posted several threads in the last few days. The one today called people that don't support Hilliary stupid. Go flame on him, and then we can talk. He is the hypocrite, not me. He is one of the blind supporters I speak about. He refuses to answer questions concerning Hilliary, but continues to instigate arguements on her behalf.

[SIMPLYB1980]

63. And you decide who is blind or not!

Must be nice to be all knowing.

It's always fun to put people in that "some" catigory when you don't agree with them. I would say that "some" people who support Kucinich have a fetish for short men. I'm sure "some" of them do, but that would be stupid.

[againes654]

64. You are not listening

or maybe you are one of the blind that I speak about.

[SIMPLYB1980]

66. I'm listening I just don't agree with you.

And I'm hardly being blind I haven't decided who to vote for. but I'll tell you this. I will not vote for any republican, and I wont vote for any third party canidate who has no chance of winning. You however seem to be blided by the canidate you have chosen. Apparently he is the only true democrat and the rest of us supporting other or all canidates are not.

[Ken Burch]

76. Uh no...he was making a distinction between those who simply support her

And those who support her BLINDLY.

[Milo_Bloom]

56. Unfortunately, there are worse things than evil.

I don't consider Clinton evil, nor do I consider Edwards evil. Evil, to me, means you do some with wanton disregard for the lives of others and worse, you convince others to follow that same path by lying and manipulating them.

There is a line between being misguided and evil. Someone who is misguided might not be EVIL. They believe what they are doing is "for the best" and that isn't necessarily EVIL. Unfortunately, that is often worse. Evil is fairly easy to confront and shine a light on. If Cheney was president we probably wouldn't have gone to Iraq, b/c he oozes evil from his pours and people wouldn't likely believe him.

Think of it this way. What was more damaging. Cheney trying to tell people that Iraq needed to be stopped OR Powell delivering that message? Powell isn't EVIL, he is a misguided follower who is too afraid of consequences to take a real stand. However, it is because of that that his opinion carried more weight and was more likely to influence people who should have known better.

So take Clinton or Edwards or any of the capitulators who are easily manipulated by fear of consequence and ask this question. What is more dangerous... a republican president trying to force the country into ANOTHER GOP led war OR a democratic president, so fearful of appearing weak on terror that they are willing to declare Iran a terrorist regime or are willing to co-sponsor an blank check war bill and lie on the senate floor about the grave threat of Saddam Hussein and his non-existent WMDs? What is more likely to be met with resistance and GOP president handing the insurance companies tax money to continue to provide crappy health care service OR a capitulating democrat, so fearful of being labelled a socialist that they would rather compromise the health care of tens of millions of Americans by processing them into an already broken system?

At the end of the day, I would much rather face evil then have to deal with fearful and stupid.

[againes654]

60. We seem to be on the same page

I think. When I said the lesser of 2 evils it is what I hear about voting for the Dem party regardless of who the candidate is. I hear it all the time. Well I will vote for the lesser of 2 evils. To me that means, the repubs are horrible, but the Dems are just bad. Well bad is better than horrible, so I will go with bad. That is what I meant. I wasn't trying to call any one particular person evil.

This thread was born out of pure frustration, and partially from another thread I read this morning.

2 years ago, I was hoping that Hilliary would run. I remember saying, that would be something, a woman as president. I remember when Obama was elected to the Senate, and my mom called me and was raving about him. I thought this would be a turning point to have a woman and a black man running for president. But today, seeing how Hilliary and Obama have run their campaigns, has pushed me away. Their platforms don't match up with what best helps me. I chose another candidate.

A week ago, I said that I would do everything in my power to get Kucinich the nomination, but regardless of who won, I would "vote for the lesser of 2 evils". After Hilliary's vote yesterday, I have had to re-think that. 2 years ago, I was blind to the issues. I would have been happy to see a woman or black president. Today, I am awake and paying attention, and it scares the shit out of me.

[L0oniX]

68. When she is president I guess we can expect her to not answer questions...

or subpoenas.

[illinoisprogressive]

69. Outside of war, her supporters usually cannot say what she really stands for

[Zandor]

71. Gee, She Might Win With That Strategy

Wouldn't want to keep a Republican out of the White House in 2008, would we?

:sarcasm:

[ileus]

72. She'll come back left, once she's in power have a little faith. n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

73. Yes, just like Bush was going to be a moderate because he was aware that

half the country voted against him. :eyes:

[Ken Burch]

82. er...why?

And when was she LEFT before?