Obama: "Until there's justice in Cuba, there's no justice anywhere," will keep embargo

[draft_mario_cuomo]

He also spoke of his Cuba proposal but this underscores that, despite all the hype and "hope", he is fundamentally the same on Cuba as the other candidates and the foreign policy establishment.

==By BRENDAN FARRINGTON
AP Political Writer

MIAMI --
Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama criticized President Bush's Cuba policy to rousing applause on Saturday at the same Little Havana auditorium where Republican Ronald Reagan once campaigned.

"Just 90 miles from here there is a country where justice and freedom are out of reach. That's why my policy toward Cuba will be guided by one word: Liberty," Obama said, adding that freedom in Cuba begins with the release of political prisoners.==

==Obama said he wouldn't lift the trade embargo, and said the offer to normalize relations in a post-Castro Cuba would be made after the country opened up to democratic change.

"Until there's justice in Cuba, there's no justice anywhere," Obama said. "We will talk to our enemies as well as our friends and both to our enemies and to our friends, we will tell them the truth and tell them what we stand for."==

Read the rest at http://www.bradenton.com/331/story/130718.html

[movonne]

1. And why would we keep an embargo on Cuba??

[msongs]

5. so that cubans in the US (citizen or not) will vote for republicans nt

[jmp]

2. Is that the sweet sound of triangulation I hear?

What I find most amusing is that all the Clinton haters don't realize that Obama is a Clinton wannabe.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

7. Bingo! In fact, Obama is a better triangulator than H. Clinton

Obama actually gets away with it. At least when HRC does it progressives usually recognize it.

Have you read Obama's book? He straddles both sides of issue after issue.

[LeftyMom]

11. He's much more like Bill than she is.

Though Bill was better than I'd thought he'd be on foreign affairs and I don't know if Obama has it in them. I can't see Hillary charming dignitaries in the same way- if elected she'd need an awesome Sec of State.

[MannyGoldstein]

16. You May Be Right

I think that Obama picked the right place to triangulate - just slightly to the left of Clinton. Now she's closer to Bush than Obama is - ouch!

But at least he didn't vote to go to war with Iraq...

[draft_mario_cuomo]

19. Slightly to the left on Cuba, to the right of her on health care

What is more important? A token gesture that does nothing to change the underlying reality of the embargo or universal health care? Hmm...

Yes, he only wants to keep an unspecified number of troops in Iraq for an unspecified length of time (but he will tell you his plan to make 3 pointers). He voted to fund the war 100% of the time until he began running for president, opposed Murtha and co.'s call for a timetable for withdrawal in 2005, voted and spoke against Kerry-Feingold in 2006, supported Lieberman over Lamont, voted to fund the surge, showed great leadership after *'s veto of Reid-Feingold. You are right. Obama is a courageous anti-war voice who is far different than Clinton. Let's recap Clinton's Iraq record since 2005, so we can compare them head-to-head: She voted to fund the war 100% of the time until she began running for president, opposed Murtha and co.'s call for a timetable for withdrawal in 2005, voted and spoke against Kerry-Feingold in 2006, supported Lieberman over Lamont, voted to fund the surge, showed great leadership after *'s veto of Reid-Feingold.

You are a classic example of how great Obama is at triangulating. It is amazing that you support the banking industry and Wall Street's favorite candidate, among other segments of corporate America where Obama is beloved, and the favorite candidate of CEO's. He actually has managed to be everything to everyone via being as vague and generic as possible. The problem is you can market yourself as such but cannot be that in reality...

[MannyGoldstein]

29. And Just What Is Mrs. Clinton's Healthcare Plan?

Please share.

Voting to start a war in Iraq was an almost-absolutely back-and-white vote. The funding votes after were more ambiguous - does one play chicken over our troops with an insane president? While I think this catastrophe should have been defunded, it's not crystal clear to me.

I'm certainly not in love with Obama, particularly regarding healthcare. However, of the three top-tier candidates, he's the only one that's not obviously bad news.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

31. She will unveil a UNIVERSAL health plan next month

Universal health care is also a black-and-white vote. One senator's vote on a 77-23 resolution makes no difference; a president leaving at least 15 million Americans uninsured does.

In your book. Obama supporters think only their standards, tailor-made for Obama (notice all the votes deemed major are the ones Obama never had to cast a vote on?), are valid. Others think funding the war, voting against K/F, opposing Murtha, financing the surge, etc. matter.

==does one play chicken over our troops with an insane president? While I think this catastrophe should have been defunded, it's not crystal clear to me.==

Ask Obama. He voted against funding when running for prez but never could bring himself to do it from 2005-2007 (he voted to finance the surge).

==he's the only one that's not obviously bad news.==

Only because you dismiss all the contrary evidence that he is not what you "hope" he is. Ask Wall Street (guess who is #1 there?). Ask the banking industry (isn't the bankruptcy bill a big one for you?). Guess who their favorite is? Ask CEOs who named him their favorite Democratic candidate. Or look at corporate America's "tort reform" bill that * and the Republicans passed in 2005. Obama voted for it along with Holy Joe, Nelson, Bayh, and other DLC luminaries; Clinton against it (along with Durbin, Feingold, Harkin, Kennedy, Kerry, and other progressives). No Republican voted against it. Look at other segments of corporate America. Or just look at his platform, which is identical to Hillary's. :)

[MannyGoldstein]

32. So You Don't Know What Her Plan Is?

Perhaps you should wait for the thing, rather than pontificate over it.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

34. Clinton has vowed that it will be universal

If it isn't, she deserves to be criticized for it. Of course, the same people who apologize for Obama's Third Way plan will probably be first in line attacking HRC's plan if it does not cover all Americans. :rofl:

[MannyGoldstein]

35. Any Plan That Is Not Medicare-For-All Is Unacceptable

And that's the way it is.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

36. In fantasyland. That can't even make it out of subcommittee

Apparently you prefer purity to achieving results and expanding health coverage.

[MannyGoldstein]

37. Then We Are Doomed

If we are the only industrialized country that can't pull this off - then we deserve the riff-raff that pass for politicians in this country.

[TeamJordan23]

40. Hillary cheerleader DMC omits Hillary's take on the Cuba embargo. nm

[Clintonista2]

71. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Obama supposed to be the "candidate of change"?

Obama supporters seem to only take a break from bashing Hillary to explain how Obama is just like Hillary.

[JTFrog]

98. There is no way she will

get rid of the insurance companies she is beholden to. Until they are eliminated you can try to call a pile of shit a rose, but it's still a pile of shit.

She has a preview on her website. I wish someone would point out exactly how this is a better plan that HR. 676.

[TreasonousBastard]

3. deleted dupe

[TreasonousBastard]

4. Cuba and Israel-- two places you just don't fuck around with if...

you wana win this thing.

Follow the script and don't ask embarassing questions.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

75. probably true

but that's one reason I support Obama. He's not afraid to ask the uncomfortable questions. I'm so tired of politicians beating around the bush all day on the tough issues because they are contentious. The solutions to Israel and Cuba are tough and it's far easier to follow the status quo. I'm not sure who you support, but this is something that should be encouraged, if for nothing else, it will lead to a meaningful debate (and hopefully change).

[defendandprotect]

78. What more than Israel requires change/new policy??? !!!!

Bush winked at Sharon and off the races we went with Israel attacking the Palestinians again -- !!!
A full scale war on them!!!!

And Lebanon wasn't enough . . .
Evidently, Bush was trying to get Israel to go into Syria!!!!

[Skip Intro]

6. Ve vill impose our will upon you

Resistance is futile


Is Cuba our enemy until it adopts a form of government we sanction? Who the hell are we to tell Cuba what type of government it can have? What the hell is it we hold against them, as we slaughter hundreds of thousands half a world away?


Obama sometimes sounds like a week-old doughnut with a new layer of glaze.

[Kagemusha]

8. You're the United States of America, beacon of liberty to the world

The present administration doesn't make America not America. It doesn't erase America's history of democracy, the Constitution, the Founding Fathers, the Bill of Rights, any of that.

No one should forget that. Not for Bush, not for Castro, not for anyone.

[Skip Intro]

9. sarcasm?

I hope...

[Kagemusha]

10. I edited the post a little but no, not really.

America has the right to speak about liberty, if any nation does. Because liberty's bigger than America.

[Skip Intro]

15. would you define liberty for me?

Does America have a right to impose our will on other nations?

[Kagemusha]

42. Speaking about liberty does not equal imposing its will.

But SHAME on anyone who thinks that America should stop talking about liberty at home and abroad as if it is not a noble ideal. SHAME.

[Skip Intro]

53. Obama said he wouldn't lift the trade embargo/ Cuba must open to demoratic change.

quote:
----------------
Obama said he wouldn't lift the trade embargo, and said the offer to normalize relations in a post-Castro Cuba would be made after the country opened up to democratic change.
----------------

That sounds like the US, in Obama's estimation, has the right to tell another nation, Cuba, how it must be before we, the mighty US, will engage with them.

He's not speaking of liberty, how ever you define that vauge, dime-store word. He's speaking of US dominance. We have no right to force our will upon the people of another nation.

BS is BS, no matter who spews it.

[Kagemusha]

58. Stop using weasel words like "engage". Speak clear English, please.

Obama's said before - and has been much criticized for doing so, in fact - that under Obama, the US will speak with Cuba and will not treat speech alone as a carrot.

He never promised lifting the trade embargo or normalizing relations. The US, too, is a sovereign nation, and can decide what relations or what trade it desires to have with another sovereign country, and please, don't bother trying to convince anyone otherwise.

Your use of "engage" is trying to make it sound like Obama will not talk to them before they open up to democracy. That is the Hillary Clinton position, not the Barack Obama position.

[Judi Lynn]

59. It's far more than just an embargo. It has exterritorial features which other countries view as

illegal. You need to examine the (Jesse) Helms-Burton Act, and get informed on what the damage has been. It's not exactly a secret anywhere but in the American government pandering, corporate media.

Our politicians are also overlooking the fact that the Cuban "exile" faction in Miami has conducted a program of terrorism, often with U.S. awareness for over 45 years. These terrorists have boasted that FBI and others have "looked the other way" when they went on murder raids, armed aggressions, some of them being caught and tried, and giving confessions publicly on Cuban tv and radio, conducting biological warfare, as testified to in U.S. court by Cuban "exile" terrorist Eduardo Arocena, bombings of hotels, restaurants, nightclubs, and missions shooting up the hotels, and beaches from the water.

Please find out what the actual picture is at some point in order to grasp what it is you're discussing.

What right does this government REALLY have to have been involved in this filth for all these decades? None, whatsoever. It's only cover is to conduct continual layering of propaganda to delude the ignorant, and sustain the hostilities.

Why do you think they HAVE to keep the American masses out of Cuba, which WANTS American tourists, just like the Canadians, Latin Americans, Carribean islanders, Europeans, Africans, Chinese and other Asians, Australians, etc. who visit Cuba regularly?

They don't want Americans finding out what a collosal lie they've been producing year after year after year in hopes of eventually seizing control back of that small island, stripping the citizens of their hard-won progress, and returning it to the feudal, racist days of the bloody, death-squad loving, U.S. Government and U.S. Mafia supported Fulgencio Batista, and the front men who served as President while he ruled from behind the scenes for over 30 years.

Just read your history, and I don't mean history books written by right-wing Republicans. No time like the present.

[Kagemusha]

60. You know what? I knew all that already. And it wasn't the point.

What I'm discussing is the simple difference between a position that a politician holds and one that he does not.

That's all.

[roody]

18. My liberty is bigger than America, so I will go to Cuba

whenever I damn well please.

[ProudDad]

81. Not really

License is what USAmerica stand for...

License to grab or steal whatever they want for the enrichment of the corporate capitalist masters.

License to bomb or kill anyone they feel like for the enrichment of the corporate capitalist masters.

License to deprive the 95% to keep feeding the 5% (or less) that constitute the corporate capitalist masters.

But Liberty...nope, USAmerica hasn't stood for that for quite a while...

[jeff30997]

12. In that case...

How about an embargo against China ? Silly me,I forgot that China = $$$

[draft_mario_cuomo]

14. Good point. Don't expect Obama to come out against most favored nation status for China

So much for his "new approach" to foreign policy.

[SOS]

65. Let's re-word Obama's quote, just for comic relief....

"Just 3,000 miles from here there is a country where justice and freedom are out of reach. That's why my policy toward China will be guided by one word: Liberty," Obama said, adding that freedom in China begins with the release of political prisoners."

Obama said he would impose a trade embargo on China, and said the offer to normalize relations in a post-dictatorship China would be made after the country opened up to democratic change.

"Until there's justice in China, there's no justice anywhere," Obama said.

:rofl:

[madrchsod]

13. we trade with cuba....

obama--there`s no fucking justice in china but we owe them 450 billion and counting.

[MasonJar]

17. Is Obama presuming that there is freedom here? It is getting less

every day. We better do some soul-searching here before we castigate other countries. I am sick of the US telling others how to live when we are so common in our destruction of the earth and its people and its creatures.

[venable]

27. Hear, hear, MasonJar! nt

[MatrixEscape]

20. Gee, well what about justice here?

We are proving that justice is not even a piece of paper anymore when it comes to our dominant and encroaching policies, both at home and abroad.

Justice and freedom are NOT just ideas that were meant to incessantly vociferous gaping mouths of politicians, corporations, and their media appendages.

I am rather surprised to see Obama spouting the same, tired, unrealistic, enthroned rhetoric that merely spreads a thin, sugary coating on the actual conditions in this country and their effect on the places in the World that our powers that be infect and effect. It is unrealistic for me to expect a candidate to point inward at all, personally or to our current zeitgeist, let alone criticize what is grossly and dangerously lacking, socially, in our current, conformity to consumerism as the sum bonum of life under the parasitic tutelage of chaste-reinforcing, exploitive capitalism. We sit and watch the highly tauted, almost religiously enforced notions of capitalism as the only solution for the common good as it plays out towards an almost apocalyptic apogee.

What trickles down today looks and smells more like stale urine, and is just as empowering and nutritious for the mind, the body, the family. The opportunities diminish as the chaste system of wealth defines a greater, yawning chasm between haves and have-nots. In the process, it is leaving the middle class to bear the strain of the disparity as they struggle to keep their place lest they enter the Twilight Zone of bottomless poverty themselves. They watch the march towards police-state, even militaristic solutions to the pervasive transition we are making to less equanimity and more regimentation.

Currently, our problem is the truth itself and how it is being manipulated and mangled in order to achieve specific, capitalistic goals, capture resources, capture and condense wealth ala plutocracy, while creating greater homogeny via empire. It's McWorld on the march and it is marching right over old, quaint notions that what American's call freedom is day-by-day, becoming nothing much more than a choice of what product to consume or what corporate, mono-culture cube to dwell in as you obey the rules that increasingly encroach on your liberty and freedom to exercise and express your rights. Of course, in a capital-worshiping culture, your true freedoms are based largely on your capacity to own/buy them. The degree to which you have tangible rights and can exercise them properly is tantamount to your income and wealth. Justice may be blind, but if you slip her enough, she will drop her scales for a quick romp in the closet, if you can afford her extra talents.

What are the alternatives to families being dependent on Fidel Castro, (who I thought had pretty much stepped down and has his Son taking the helm as per rule by lineage)? People being free, empowered, and enriched is one thing, but what does America have to offer via its predatory capitalism and meritocracy approaches? Generally, cheap labor as exploitation seems to be our best exported treat that may uplift some, but at what price and for whose gain?

I wonder if there is any progressive left in the body politic? We should be able to get our own act straight here and pull heads out of the sand while the Emperor fiddles before we indulge ourselves in any more of the fantasy of superiority and self-righteousness that has plagued the self-image this country has had for so long.

[venable]

28. well said

someone has to take the hard step and tell the voters that we are not who we pretend to be.

I'm counting on Edwards.

[Cameron27]

21. It looks like Edwards has the same proposal as Obama:

snip: "The debate was stirred Tuesday by an op-ed essay Sen. Barack Obama wrote for the Miami Herald. In it, he called for the lifting of two Bush administration restrictions on Cuban-Americans. Obama wrote that he would grant Cuban-Americans "unrestricted rights to visit family and send remittances to the island."

snip: Current restrictions allow Cuban-Americans to send family members $300 a quarter and limit visits to up to 14 days once every three years.

Among the other Democratic candidates, New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson already was on record in favor of changes along the lines outlined by Obama.

Former Sen. John Edwards split the difference; he favors unlimited travel by family members but opposes "raising the limits on sending American dollars back to Cuba at this time."

Sen. Chris Dodd would do more; he favors allowing all Americans unrestricted travel to Cuba."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/21/obama.cuba/

[draft_mario_cuomo]

22. Yes, but Edwards was not hyped as having a "new approach" to Cuba and foreign affairs in general

If two products are the same which will receive more attention? The one which is what it says it is or the one busted for false advertising?

[Cameron27]

23. Obama was first, he got the attention and then Edwards followed.

[venable]

25. Did Edwards say money is our best ambassador? I don't think he did.

If I have misunderstood Obama, I apologize. It smells bad, though, from where I'm sitting.

[Cameron27]

30. Lifting the embargo would be the best policy, which means

money for the Cuban people.

Here's what Edwards said last year:

"Asked about the possibility the United States might change its policy on Cuba when Fidel Castro dies, Edwards said he has supported the United States embargo of a Castro-led Cuba, but if Castro, who recently underwent intestinal surgery, should die, this country should "evaluate his successor and then decide" whether to lift the embargo."

If anything smells, it's announcing that you're waiting for a foreign leader to die before reevaluating the embargo.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_hampshire/articles/2006/08/05/john_edwards_calls_for_immediate_withdrawal_from_iraq/

edited for the link

[draft_mario_cuomo]

26. Is Edwards being hyped as having a "new approach" to Cuba?

Obama is being hyped as having a "new approach" to Cuba, and foreign policy in general, although in reality all the major candidates are essentially the same on foreign policy aside from Iraq. Obama's Achilles heel is the hype always runs well ahead of the reality. This is why he has steadily declined in the polls as people have gotten to know him better (usually new candidates improve as their name ID rises). Once people see that he is a mere mortal, not a magic messiah, he loses support.

[Adelante]

38. Edwards is hyped as the health care expert .. and yet

When an Iowa resident asked former senator John Edwards Thursday whether the United States should follow the Cuban healthcare model, the 2004 vice presidential contender deflected the question by saying he didn't know enough to answer the question.

"I'm going to be honest with you -- I don't know a lot about Cuba's healthcare system," Edwards, D-N.C., said at an event in Oskaloosa, Iowa. "Is it a government-run system?"

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/08/sicko-twister.html

One of those laugh out loud moments.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

41. When was he hyped as a health care expert? nt

[Adelante]

43. I thought it was satire at first

I thought it was pretty funny. As I read on, I realized it actually happened. Kind of a shocking display of ignorance on the part of a candidate who has been made much of at DU for his health care plan.

[Cameron27]

45. Kind of shocking for someone to say after they watched "Sicko"

[draft_mario_cuomo]

46. As if the candidates write a dissertation on every issue

It isn't as if experts fill in most of the details. ;)

[Adelante]

47. I can't think of a single other candidate

who would need to be told by an expert that Cuba's medical system is government run.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

48. I can think of some candidates who weren't experts on the details of issues

Some of them were even very popular on the netroots...

[Adelante]

49. You do realize he's running for President of the United States?

Cuba's that small island 90 miles off Florida, the one that's Communist. He should know that.

I'm off to bed. Night night. :hi:

[draft_mario_cuomo]

50. Later

:hi:

[venable]

24. "Liberty" and "money" - wretch

of course we want our country to support open governments and human rights.

But do we want "liberty', with all of it's complexity, to replace 'freedom is on the march'.

I would hope for something less platitudinous, something more nuanced, and having to do with actual, practical help - ie aids in africa, lifting the cuban embargo, stopping genocide wherever it occurs, etc.

Not another bumper-sticker, please. Who is advising Obama? Oh, right: Axelrod.


And our best ambassador is money? Somehow stinks of showering Elian Gonzalez with plastic items from Toy-R-Us, thinking that will trump his actual father.

I want Obama to be better than he is. I really do.

[Cameron27]

33. And I really wish that Edwards had shown good judgment

in his recent past. I really do.

[venable]

51. can you address the concerns of my post?

or would you rather simply dismiss my sincere desire to like Obama more than his campaign is allowing me to?

I think my post presents serious objections to 'liberty' and 'money' as our measures. Can you refute that?

[Cameron27]

68. Yes, I'd be happy to.

You knock out a few choice statements about Obama that seem to send you into a kind of personal despair, but then choose to overlook the fact that Edwards has proposed either similar or worse policies towards Cuba. I don't have any quarrel with personal opinions because I know how to treat them, but when someone tries to link their personal feelings with dubious facts in an effort to justify them, then I think it's wise to point that out.

[venable]

70. excuse me, all you did was dismiss my post as 'opinion'

and you added a couple of snide comments, like 'dubious' and 'personal despair'. God knows where that comes from.

would you address whether we want an abstraction like "liberty' to be the 'one measure of our FP'


and whether or not you agree that 'the money sent back from the states to Cuba is our best ambassador'


my read of this - and it's an opinion, - is that this sounds like 'Freedom is on the march", and anytime a slogan ("Liberty") replaces the full, nuanced complexiity of foreign affaris, I don't like it.

and I believe further, that identifying cash as our best amabassador turns our appeal into purely materialistic opportunity. I would hope we are more than that, or aspire to be.

Now, would you address the above, and not just tell me that I am in 'despair' (I'm not).

What facts are dubious, by the way?. what part have I made up? what part did I misread?

Please answer the above questions without resort to diminishing my opinion. I've asked this many, many times, and I never get a substantive answer.

[Cameron27]

72. There's nothing wrong with what Obama said.

Money sent back to Cuba via friends and relatives is a great ambassador for our country at this point. Exactly what more can be done right now? He wants to lift the embargo and that's the best thing to happen for both our country and Cuba IMO.

It's easy to give pretty speeches about liberty and justice for all, and it's also easy, but many times worse, to announce that we'll change our policy just as soon as Castro dies, which is what Edwards did. That's just bad diplomacy in addition to being tacky.

[venable]

73. putting aside your judgement of Edwards statements

you do agree that it's easy to give pretty speeches about liberty...Obama went one worse - he said it's the sole measure of our foreign policy. If I am a citizen of another country, I would be awfully tired of Americans being so holy and presumptuous, especially when our own house is in such disarray. I would hope for an American leader that dropped the sloganeering and anything at all that smacked of PNAC. "liberty' does smack of this. Being a force for good, a more general statement, doesn't sound so precious, to my ears anyway.

As for the money thing - well, we disagree. I think it also sounds bad to the rest of the world to have us say cash flowing from our shores is our best ambassador. You don't think it's bad. We disagree.

I agree with lifting the embargo. Today.

[venable]

93. does he want to lift the embargo, and does Castro's death have any impact to Obama?

"Obama said he wouldn't lift the trade embargo, and said the offer to normalize relations in a post-Castro Cuba would be made after the country opened up to democratic change." AP

[AtomicKitten]

39. Inflammatory AND not true -- Obama plans to EASE embargo --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3477879

[venable]

74. dear AK

I checked out your post to see Ricky. Where is he?
keep him in the public eye.

[AtomicKitten]

79. go Ricky ...

[venable]

82. thanks.

because of your posting this, I went back and watched the Christmas special.

brilliant.


for those non-Ricky fans, I apologize for hijacking the subthread.

[AtomicKitten]

84. I am always available for a fix .. ;)

[LBJDemocrat]

44. He's absolutely right

Not that the other candidates are wrong, but normalizing trade relations with a non-democratic country is wrong whether it's China or Cuba.

[alteredstate]

52. I'll ask again....

Why do you hate Barack Obama?

And why are you obsessed with him?

[Adelante]

62. I have a theory to offer, fwiw

The OP doesn't hate Obama and is not obsessed with him. The strategy seems to be to keep Obama supporters soft on Edwards by keeping an incessant drumbeat of anti-Obama posts going that mainly set Obama supporters and Clinton supporters at each other's throats, so much so that some DUers have concluded the OP is a Clinton supporter disguised as an Edwards supporter. It does work for Clinton, because a stronger Edwards, at this point, is in her interest as it works against Obama. The Hillaryis44 site has carried a blank page on Edwards for six months while Obama is regularly attacked there. The netroots pushes an Edwards-Obama alliance against Clinton, no matter that Obama is twice as strong as Edwards and doesn't benefit in any way. It all works for Edwards, because he gets the breathing room to move up on Obama and better position himself against Clinton. It's all good, unless you're Obama, in other words. So that's what I think is going on here.

[alteredstate]

63. You're probably right.

In the ensuing DU Clinton/Obama drama, Edwards' electability issues have been largely ignored.

[killbotfactory]

54. You expect a mainstream candidate to be against the embargo?

Are you smoking crack?

He's willing to negotiate with Cuba, and ease the stupid restrictions Bush put in place. That's a start.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

55. Of course not. I just don't buy the myth that he represents real change on Cuba nt

[killbotfactory]

56. He presents a change from Bush's current policy

Clinton can't even manage to go that far.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

57. A minor change that means little. Hardly the "new way of thinking" advertised nt

[Ethelk2044]

64. Obama's change is not a minor change. It is a major change. He is not the one who is

lock in step by voting for the war. He is not the one who spoke out for the war. He is not the one who said the escalation in troops is working. He has been working against the war from the start. He has spoke out for the middle and lower class from the start. This has been his life's work. He did not work for a major law firm when it was convenient for him to do so.

[donsu]

61. does Obama want justice for Haiti too?

nt

[Judi Lynn]

66. If he did, he'd help reinstate the Haitian people's President, Jean-Bertrand Aristide, whom

BOTH _BUSH Presidents removed from office when it was surely none of their business.

It would be WONDERFUL to see someone speak up on Haiti's behalf.

[Cha]

67. Like there's so much fucking justice

and right here in the USA.

[ProudDad]

87. Tell me about it

Injustice in the U.S. against people trying to keep an eye on the Cuban Terrorists.

http://www.freethefive.org/

Injustice to USAmericans in their own country...

http://www.innocenceproject.org/

Fix your own FUCKING HOUSE ObamClintWards before fucking around with the rest of the world!!!!

Assholes!!!

[backscatter712]

69. He's triangulating...

It's a bad habit. I think he's picked it up from being around Hillary too much. Very disappointing. He should break this habit while it's still young and easy to do.

[harun]

76. Island economies need to be treated differently than large nations

special steps need to be taken to protect the rights of poor in Island economies. While I am not agreeing or disagreeing with Cuba's politics it does need to be kept in mind that islands are very different than the large rich countries.

[defendandprotect]

77. This is really a shame . . . we should have overturned the embargo decades ago ---

We have no right to do this to the people of Cuba --

I guess I should check how many other of the candidates support keeping this embargo on???

[Adelante]

83. Right here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3478621

[defendandprotect]

100. Kucinich wins again!!!

[dpbrown]

80. Another reason I'm glad Obama won't be getting the nomination

We trade openly with Communist China, which gives us poisonous Dora the Explorers, but shun Cuba, which has Universal Health Care.

Sit down already, Obama. Your 15 minutes are almost up.

[ProudDad]

85. There's only ONE candidate who's right about Cuba

That's Kucinich...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9969997/

http://www.endtheembargo.com/about.php


The embargo is illegal and counter-productive. It MUST be ended...

[Chulanowa]

86. In other words, he said a big mouthful of nothing?

Y'know, I've promised myself that I'm not going to play the "this candidate vs. that candidate" game until I actually cast my vote in the primaries. That said, Obama is starting to annoy me. I like the guy and all, but the more I hear, the more he's starting to look like fluff. A lot of feel-good rhetoric with positions that are so scattered that you can't draw a straight line from one to another.

He wants Liberty in Cuba, and insists that maintaining the status quo is the way to do that? The embargo is what has kept Castro in power in the first place, it's kept Cuba politically and economically isolated, resulting in a practical mummification of the state. It's a good fifty years behind its contemporaries. When Castro finally kicks the bucket, what do the candidates think will happen in Cuba? What do they think our federally sponsored, Miami-based terror organizations are going to do during that?

[AtomicKitten]

89. Um, in other words, the OP is full of beans.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3477879

[Chulanowa]

92. Is he?

If so, then the AP writer of the article must be talking out his kiester

"Obama said he wouldn't lift the trade embargo, and said the offer to normalize relations in a post-Castro Cuba would be made after the country opened up to democratic change."

:shrug:

[AtomicKitten]

94. well I proffered contradictory information

here's some more: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/08/21/america/NA-POL-US-Obama-Cuba.php

It appears you've already made up your mind regardless of the facts.

[Chulanowa]

95. I'm looking at the dates, is all

Yours is Monday last week
His is Saturday

The only think I've made up my mind about is that I'm voting Democratic. Spare me the "pet candidate" stuff - I figure they're politicians, talking out both sides of their mouths isn't all that surprising. I'm just disappointed by the amount of... fluf from this last speech. "Liberty and freedom and apple pie" kind of stuff.

[AtomicKitten]

96. dayum

Well, hopefully everything will turn out better than okay. It could happen.

[ProudDad]

90. I've been to Cuba

I think those right-wing fucks are going to show up in Havana, try to steal the country and get their asses handed to them on a platter...

Those fucks don't realize that most Cubans are SOCIALISTS. They see the Miami TV, they know what our fucked up consumer society looks like and although they'd like things a little better, they're not ready to sell their souls for a fucking Wal-Mart.

All the capitalist assholes are in for a rude awakening if they think they're gonna just march in and take over.

[Judi Lynn]

97. The Cuban "exiles" appeared to imagine Cubans would be glad to see them

leading up to the Bay of Pigs, too. They must have been a little put off when they realized how very many Cubans sincerely turned out to tell them, "I don't think so."

What the hell do they think has happened which would have changed their minds by now? Jeezus H. Christ.

The island has undergone a complete transformation since the original monsters got out of town fast, hoping to avoid acts of revenge against them right after the revolution: death squad members, people who assisted in murders and torture of REAL dissidents, people who, in their Batista government positions managed to suck off and away, along with Fulgencio Batista, the contents of the National Treasury before taking off.

People can only admire their special skills in government when they see the way they run things in Miami (designated "Terror Capital of the United States" by the F.B.I., and multiple years' winner of the "Poorest City in a City Over 500,000 Population" award by the United States Census Bureau) over the last 4 decades. Who on earth would think Cubans want that #### BACK?



Republican Cuban "exile" Congressmen Lincoln and Mario Diaz-Balart, Ileana Ros-Lehtinen
Senator Mel Martinez

[More Than A Feeling]

88. The audacity of the same ol' same ol'. nt

[Tatiana]

91. I understand why he's saying this.

Any candidate in favor of lifting the embargo would be crucified. However, the embargo is a leftover relic that is accomplishing nothing. It should be lifted. It's so hypocritical to look at our economic policy towards China and then say we need to keep the Cuban embargo.

[GeorgeGist]

99. The Panderer

Oh well Im the type of guy who will never settle down
Where pretty girls are well, you know that Im around
I kiss em and I loveem cause to me theyre all the same
I hug em and I squeeze em they dont even know my name
They call me the panderer yeah the panderer
I roam around around around...