Saint Hillary and her prayer circle

[QueenOfCalifornia]

So, I was skipping through the internet and stopped by the Daily Kos - I like it there, it's warm and covered in Democratic fur and they serve a mean cocktail ... or was that the Mexican restaurant I ate at yesterday? Anyway... I found this article about another article
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/8/18/71537/3008

It contains excerpts from a Mother Jones Magazine article - It's all about Hillary and her EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN leanings -- All you Clinton supporters out there....

I have a question for ya... ARE YOU LISTENING?

Haven't you had enough of that bull shit to last you a lifetime or two?

She scares me with her pro-war stance and how she helped fund W's failed ambush of Iraq.

She scares me more with her membership in the Christian Taliban.

[obnoxiousdrunk]

1. Nothing to

get upset about in that article.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

2. okay

If you like a president who believes she is going to be jerked out of her body and sent to meet her imaginary friend Jesus... That is what Evangelical's believe - It's crazy talk.

[liberalsoldier5]

141. You mean belief in Heaven?

If so, then there's nothing really crazy or bothersome about that. Most Americans believe in it, not just ultra-crazy fundamentalcase Christians. If she believes in Heaven, then Hillary is just in line with most of America, including myself and lot of DUers. If you can, let me know what you mean.

[MadHound]

16. No, nothing to get upset about

Other than here close personal relationships that she's developed with fundy RW conservatives at her little prayer circle, her stealth evangelicanism clouding her professional judgement, and the fact that this little prayer circle and its ideology are having a detrimental effect on Hillary's political positions.

I subscribe to Mother Jones, and these excerpts don't do any justice to what the full article reveals. I would suggest that that you either go out and buy the latest Sept./Oct. issue, or wait for the online version to become available and read it all for yourself. Frankly I was pretty horrified, and this information simply confirms my belief that this woman should not be voted into the highest office in the land.

[goodgd_yall]

106. Haven't read the whole article

but, I agree, the excerpt from DailyKos tells me nothing. I'm anxious to read the whole article.

[Enrique]

3. i don't believe you're really "scared" by this

and I don't believe you really think she's in a "Christian Taliban."

Why did you put "evangelical Christian" in big bold letters. Is that supposed to be frightening to us? Why?

[QueenOfCalifornia]

18. my oh my

I put the evangelical in bold letters so people like you, who seem to dismiss Hillary's flaws and obvious corporatist interests may just notice that evangelical crap has got us knee deep in Iraq - Jesus man...Why do the Hillary supporters seem to be blind to her obvious problems -

If you like having religious dogma interjected into your government then she is the person for the job. If you feel that our Republic needs a clear separation of Church and Government - then you can't really be serious about backing the Christian Taliban - And yes, I did mean to write Taliban. My fingers didn't skip around the keyboard on their own...

I don't expect a president to be an Atheist (like myself) but I don't want another 8 years of sending billions of tax dollars to the Church of George's choice via The Faith Based Initiative

[emilyg]

24. I like Jesus.

[RevCheesehead]

130. me, too.

And not just because my job requires it. :P

[corkhead]

85. I would offer an answer to your question but my post might get disappeared.

this thread may give you some clues:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1633118&mesg_id=1633118

[QueenOfCalifornia]

124. Yikes....

I just found your post -- whee!

There are moles everwhere ---

Now that is disturbing.

[Hersheygirl]

31. Well, I read the article in Mother Jones,

and to be truthful, it does scare me. The states that "through all of her years in Washington, Clinton has been an active participant in conservative Bible study and prayer circles that are part of a secretive Capitol Hill group known as the Fellowship. Her collaborations with right-wingers such as Senator Brownback (R-Kan)and former Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA)grow from that connection." The key word to me is 'secretive'.

I don't know about anyone else, but I for one am tired of all the secrecy going on in Washington and after reading the whole article in Mother Jones, I'd say she's not too far off from Bush and that scares the hell out of me.

Everybody has the right to believe in what they want, I have no problem with that, however, I do not believe it should be mixed in with politics.

[AntiFascist]

132. As I recall, the Fellowship is not your typical Christian prayer circle....

they have a very dangerous agenda and far reaching tentacles, including corrupt Ohio politicians involved in election fraud. One of the ultimate goals of Dominionism may be to destroy democracy and the US Constitution, replacing it with the rule of God.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

134. You aren't kidding

This is interesting - it's about the cute, little prayer circle Hillary belongs to: http://www.foothillpc.org/pastor_writings/Dysfunction%20in%20Fellowship.pdf

The Fellowship Foundation, a secretive organization of wealthy and powerful American political,
religious, and business leaders, would rather that you not be aware of its existence.
The Fellowship Foundation is an organization that goes by many names, but members mostly
call it “the Fellowship,” or just “the Family.” It is a loose, worldwide affiliation of mostly
wealthy, mostly powerful, mostly men, using the Mafia as an organizational model. Preaching a
simple gospel of “Jesus plus nothing,” and, being adverse to institutionalized forms of
Christianity (even shunning the name “Christian”), the Fellowship eschews organized churches,
choosing instead to build strong relationships in the community of small cell groups. Each year
the Fellowship hosts the National Prayer Breakfast and hundreds of prayer breakfasts
worldwide, and through the relationships developed in these cell groups and prayer breakfasts,
the Fellowship quietly exerts great influence within our nation’s corridors of power. For years,
the Fellowship has operated without accountability, oversight, or restraint, in ways that are cult-
like in the spiritual, emotional, and personal control that is exerted over members.
Within the community of American Christianity, the Fellowship has very few critics. In part this
is because the work of the Fellowship remains largely unknown. For those in the know, there is
a great temptation to look the other way when confronted with the Fellowship’s moral and
ethical failings. The Fellowship’s connection to power and wealth has has created what Chris
Hayashida Knight, an ex-member from San Francisco, describes as “a priesthood of rich white
guys,” men who are admired for their faith, respected because of their wealth, and feared on
account of their power. These are men no one really wants to piss off.
In fact, while soliciting interviews for this article very few people were willing to be interviewed
on the record. “Don’t use my name because I’m afraid of these people,” was an oft-repeated
refrain. Others expressed hesitancy to talk saying “I don’t want to break down the Body of
Christ.” The frequency with which both mantras were repeated is emblematic of the kind of
control exerted by the Fellowship over its members.

[JTFrog]

4. Are you kidding me?

The authors state Clinton is a member of Coe's possibly most elite cell, the weekly Senate Prayer Breakfast...usually attended by about 40 members...with the regulars being Sam Brownback, Tom Coburn, Joe Lieberman, Mark Pryor,and, until recently, George Allen. Other names sprinkled throughout the article and mentioned as friends of Coe include Tom Delay, John Ashcroft, Edwin Meese III, Rep. Joe Pitts, Jeb Bush, Chuck Colson, James Inhofe, Rick Santorum, and others.

If that isn't enough to scare the shit out of you, then nothing will.

[Irreverend IX]

8. You want to see scary?

Read this:

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2003/03/0079525

All the gory details about the people Clinton and the Republicans have been dallying with. The "prayer breakfasts" are part of a theo-fascist movement that has been building under the US political radar.

[UNCLE_Rico]

27. AGREED ... EVERYONE SHOULD READ THAT ARTICLE...

It's kinda long, but EXTREMELY enlightening, particularly the accounts of how the leaders seem to think ...

Put it this way, when these people say Jesus ... it's obviously some kind of code word.

I'll leave it to you, the readers, to interpret what they really mean.

I read this article years ago, and have wondered WHEN, if EVER, somebody else would write about the creation and subsequent behind-the-scenes power-brokering of this Fellowship.

They are a very frightening (to me) development in our collective history as a Nation. They seem very much like they actually HAVE THE POWER they speak of.

[KoKo]

71. Here's a SNIP from the article. You can scroll down on the Website and get

the article inspite of all the stuff from Harpers saying you have to subscribe.

-------------------------------

And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

—Matthew 10:36

This is how they pray: a dozen clear-eyed, smooth-skinned “brothers” gathered together in a huddle, arms crossing arms over shoulders like the weave of a cable, leaning in on one another and swaying like the long grass up the hill from the house they share. The house is a handsome, gray, two-story colonial that smells of new carpet and Pine-Sol and aftershave; the men who live there call it Ivanwald. At the end of a tree-lined cul-de-sac, quiet but for the buzz of lawn mowers and kids playing foxes-and-hounds in the park across the road, Ivanwald sits as one house among many, clustered together like mushrooms, all devoted, like these men, to the service of Jesus Christ. The men tend every tulip in the cul-de-sac, trim every magnolia, seal every driveway smooth and black as boot leather. And they pray, assembled at the dining table or on their lawn or in the hallway or in the bunk room or on the basketball court, each man's head bowed in humility and swollen with pride (secretly, he thinks) at being counted among such a fine corps for Christ, among men to whom he will open his heart and whom he will remember when he returns to the world not born-again but remade, no longer an individual but part of the Lord's revolution, his will transformed into a weapon for what the young men call “spiritual war.”

“Jeff, will you lead us in prayer?”

Surely, brother. It is April 2002, and I have lived with these men for weeks now, not as a Christian—a term they deride as too narrow for the world they are building in Christ's honor—but as a “believer.” I have shared the brothers' meals and their work and their games. I have been numbered among them and have been given a part in their ministry. I have wrestled with them and showered with them and listened to their stories: I know which man resents his father's fortune and which man succumbed to the flesh of a woman not once but twice and which man dances so well he is afraid of being taken for a fag. I know what it means to be a “brother,” which is to say that I know what it means to be a soldier in the army of God.

“Heavenly Father,” I begin. Then, “O Lord,” but I worry that this doesn't sound intimate enough. I settle on, “Dear Jesus.” “Dear Jesus, just, please, Jesus, let us fight for Your name.”
* * *

Ivanwald, which sits at the end of Twenty-fourth Street North in Arlington, Virginia, is known only to its residents and to the members and friends of the organization that sponsors it, a group of believers who refer to themselves as “the Family.” The Family is, in its own words, an “invisible” association, though its membership has always consisted mostly of public men. Senators Don Nickles (R., Okla.), Charles Grassley (R., Iowa), Pete Domenici (R., N.Mex.), John Ensign (R., Nev.), James Inhofe (R., Okla.), Bill Nelson (D., Fla.), and Conrad Burns (R., Mont.) are referred to as “members,” as are Representatives Jim DeMint (R., S.C.), Frank Wolf (R., Va.), Joseph Pitts (R., Pa.), Zach Wamp (R., Tenn.), and Bart Stupak (D., Mich.). Regular prayer groups have met in the Pentagon and at the Department of Defense, and the Family has traditionally fostered strong ties with businessmen in the oil and aerospace industries. The Family maintains a closely guarded database of its associates, but it issues no cards, collects no official dues. Members are asked not to speak about the group or its activities.

The organization has operated under many guises, some active, some defunct: National Committee for Christian Leadership, International Christian Leadership, the National Leadership Council, Fellowship House, the Fellowship Foundation, the National Fellowship Council, the International Foundation. These groups are intended to draw attention away from the Family, and to prevent it from becoming, in the words of one of the Family's leaders, “a target for misunderstanding.” 11. The Los Angeles Times reported in September that the Fellowship Foundation alone has an annual budget of $10 million, but that represents only a fraction of the Family's finances. Each of the Family's organizations raises funds independently. Ivanwald, for example, is financed at least in part by an entity called the Wilberforce Foundation. Other projects are financed by individual “friends”: wealthy businessmen, foreign governments, church congregations, or mainstream foundations that may be unaware of the scope of the Family's activities. At Ivanwald, when I asked to what organization a donation check might be made, I was told there was none; money was raised on a “man-to-man” basis. Major Family donors named by the Times include Michael Timmis, a Detroit lawyer and Republican fund-raiser; Paul Temple, a private investor from Maryland; and Jerome A. Lewis, former CEO of the Petro-Lewis Corporation. The Family's only publicized gathering is the National Prayer Breakfast, which it established in 1953 and which, with congressional sponsorship, it continues to organize every February in Washington, D.C. Each year 3,000 dignitaries, representing scores of nations, pay $425 each to attend. Steadfastly ecumenical, too bland most years to merit much press, the breakfast is regarded by the Family as merely a tool in a larger purpose: to recruit the powerful attendees into smaller, more frequent prayer meetings, where they can “meet Jesus man to man.”

MORE at the Harpers link on post above..........

[Mnemosyne]

170. A few shorter articles on The Family/Fellowship:

Fellowship finances townhouse where 6 congressmen live

http://www.tennessean.com/government/archives/03/04/31786118.shtml?Element_ID=31786118


Meet 'The Family'

http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/16167


The Family (Christian political organization)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fellowship_Foundation


Showing Faith in Discretion
The Fellowship, which sponsors the National Prayer Breakfast, quietly effects political change. It acts with the blessing of many in power.

http://www.toobeautiful.org/lat_020927.html


Senator Ensign and The Bonds of Fellowship

http://www.taylormarsh.com/archives_view.php?id=24283#post24283


Scary, delusional bunch.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

172. Let us prey...

...It isn't a typo. I meant to write "prey"

That is what The Fellowship - does --- It preys on people.

[rosesaylavee]

131. Read it - and it is frightening.

I was invited to a 'prayer breakfast' hosted by IL Governor Ryan several years back by my former fundie boss. At the time I declined by saying that I would hate to have the governor misunderstand and think I supported him. Didn't make a lot of points with my fundie boss but it felt good to say no. Now I am thinking it was probably part of the weirdness that is covered in that article.

We don't need any more blurring of church and state. It has to end. Now.

[Enrique]

11. not true

i'm not scared at all by that excerpt, and yet I am terrified of pit bulls.

[karynnj]

47. That doesn't sound as much like a Bible study group,

as a liberal version of who you would be surrounded by in your private hell. It's hard to pick the worst. Chuck Colson, Nixon's dirty trickster - willing to attempt to destroy people to suit Nixon's ends; Senator Inofe, who leads the flat earth caucus (per one Senator), Coburn, Allen(who I always turned the volume off when he spoke in the SFRC), Santorum. Ed Meese! She must be a glutton for punishment.

[monmouth]

5. Glad to see the Hillary bashing is alive and well on DU.....eom

[FiveGoodMen]

15. She's the wrong one for the job and it's every American's right to say so

I'm glad we haven't stopped saying so.

[Totally Committed]

22. I agree... She IS the wrong one for the job and it's every American's right to say so

I am tired of being criticized for simply stating my opposition to Senator Clinton, and those she surrounds herself with, is advised by, and the policies she espouses.

I won't be quiet about it. No way.

TC

[RaleighNCDUer]

68. You don't wonder at all why she would choose to hang out

with the worst of the worst that DC has to offer?

[corkhead]

86. so is the bashing of those who don't worship her majesty

[puebloknot]

121. "American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America"

Great book you might find enlightening on the subject. Author is Chris Hedges

I supported Hillary through her ordeal with Bill/Monica. I even supported Bill through that because...I have personal experience with the evangelicals who started picking on Bill back in circa 1998, and I can smell what they're up to.

Hillary is showing a different face now, in her lust for power. We need to take off our blinders and pay attention to *what* she supports.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

149. Boo - f-ing - hoo

Are you kidding me?

Hillary bashing...

You are willing to hide your head in the sand and not look at a persons character flaws and go ahead and vote for them? If anyone pointed out to me that the candidate I am going to vote for belonged to a secret cell of religious creeps, I would recant and find another horse to back. I wouldn't just dismiss the information given to me and call it "bashing."

As far as I know, bashing is when what one is saying isn't necessarily true or important.

This is important and needs to be examined.

I get the creeps thinking of those 40 people all holding hands and chanting some sort of prayer that they, as messengers of God, will be able to save the world by bringing our form of democracy to them..

How's that Iraqi thing workin' for you?

[creeksneakers2]

156. I've read your comments and the links

I don't see anything about Hillary being involved with this religious group in any way. Somewhere somebody said that she sometimes goes to the Senate prayer breakfast along with 39 other Senators. So what? That means she's part of a cult and wants to take over the world for Jesus? The woman is an Episcopalian. This crazy group you thinks she's part of doesn't believe in belonging to an organized religion.

I don't know where this kook stuff about Hillary starts from but I'd sure like to.

[unkachuck]

166. me too....n/t

[bluestateguy]

6. There is nothing wrong with being an evangelical or a born-again

Jimmy Carter is both.

The dangerous people are the fundamentalists, who want their religious doctrine enacted into law.

[Totally Committed]

17. I totally agree with you. If I were convinced that she was for the absolute

seperation of Church from State, and if I felt I could trust her, I wouldn't be concerned at all.

TC

[RaleighNCDUer]

70. You mean, like the Fellowship people she is hanging out with?

Those dangerous people?

[creeksneakers2]

157. Where do you get the idea she's hanging out with these people?

Source?

[druidity33]

169. The Mother Jones article...

And i hate to say it, but they have one of the best investigative teams out there. And UTTERLY independent of Corporate ownership. They don't take sides. They report. You should read the full article. If it says HRC is involved with these folk, i'd believe them.

[creeksneakers2]

179. I read the entire article

I skimmed it again. It doesn't say a single thing about Hillary Clinton. Doesn't even mention her.

[druidity33]

182. you're a subscriber?

My library hasn't even received a copy yet. It's not available on their website yet...

[KoKo]

75. This isn't your "average" born again evangelical group....this is sinister...read snip here.

And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

—Matthew 10:36

This is how they pray: a dozen clear-eyed, smooth-skinned “brothers” gathered together in a huddle, arms crossing arms over shoulders like the weave of a cable, leaning in on one another and swaying like the long grass up the hill from the house they share. The house is a handsome, gray, two-story colonial that smells of new carpet and Pine-Sol and aftershave; the men who live there call it Ivanwald. At the end of a tree-lined cul-de-sac, quiet but for the buzz of lawn mowers and kids playing foxes-and-hounds in the park across the road, Ivanwald sits as one house among many, clustered together like mushrooms, all devoted, like these men, to the service of Jesus Christ. The men tend every tulip in the cul-de-sac, trim every magnolia, seal every driveway smooth and black as boot leather. And they pray, assembled at the dining table or on their lawn or in the hallway or in the bunk room or on the basketball court, each man's head bowed in humility and swollen with pride (secretly, he thinks) at being counted among such a fine corps for Christ, among men to whom he will open his heart and whom he will remember when he returns to the world not born-again but remade, no longer an individual but part of the Lord's revolution, his will transformed into a weapon for what the young men call “spiritual war.”

“Jeff, will you lead us in prayer?”

Surely, brother. It is April 2002, and I have lived with these men for weeks now, not as a Christian—a term they deride as too narrow for the world they are building in Christ's honor—but as a “believer.” I have shared the brothers' meals and their work and their games. I have been numbered among them and have been given a part in their ministry. I have wrestled with them and showered with them and listened to their stories: I know which man resents his father's fortune and which man succumbed to the flesh of a woman not once but twice and which man dances so well he is afraid of being taken for a fag. I know what it means to be a “brother,” which is to say that I know what it means to be a soldier in the army of God.

“Heavenly Father,” I begin. Then, “O Lord,” but I worry that this doesn't sound intimate enough. I settle on, “Dear Jesus.” “Dear Jesus, just, please, Jesus, let us fight for Your name.”
* * *

Ivanwald, which sits at the end of Twenty-fourth Street North in Arlington, Virginia, is known only to its residents and to the members and friends of the organization that sponsors it, a group of believers who refer to themselves as “the Family.” The Family is, in its own words, an “invisible” association, though its membership has always consisted mostly of public men. Senators Don Nickles (R., Okla.), Charles Grassley (R., Iowa), Pete Domenici (R., N.Mex.), John Ensign (R., Nev.), James Inhofe (R., Okla.), Bill Nelson (D., Fla.), and Conrad Burns (R., Mont.) are referred to as “members,” as are Representatives Jim DeMint (R., S.C.), Frank Wolf (R., Va.), Joseph Pitts (R., Pa.), Zach Wamp (R., Tenn.), and Bart Stupak (D., Mich.). Regular prayer groups have met in the Pentagon and at the Department of Defense, and the Family has traditionally fostered strong ties with businessmen in the oil and aerospace industries. The Family maintains a closely guarded database of its associates, but it issues no cards, collects no official dues. Members are asked not to speak about the group or its activities.

The organization has operated under many guises, some active, some defunct: National Committee for Christian Leadership, International Christian Leadership, the National Leadership Council, Fellowship House, the Fellowship Foundation, the National Fellowship Council, the International Foundation. These groups are intended to draw attention away from the Family, and to prevent it from becoming, in the words of one of the Family's leaders, “a target for misunderstanding.” 11. The Los Angeles Times reported in September that the Fellowship Foundation alone has an annual budget of $10 million, but that represents only a fraction of the Family's finances. Each of the Family's organizations raises funds independently. Ivanwald, for example, is financed at least in part by an entity called the Wilberforce Foundation. Other projects are financed by individual “friends”: wealthy businessmen, foreign governments, church congregations, or mainstream foundations that may be unaware of the scope of the Family's activities. At Ivanwald, when I asked to what organization a donation check might be made, I was told there was none; money was raised on a “man-to-man” basis. Major Family donors named by the Times include Michael Timmis, a Detroit lawyer and Republican fund-raiser; Paul Temple, a private investor from Maryland; and Jerome A. Lewis, former CEO of the Petro-Lewis Corporation. The Family's only publicized gathering is the National Prayer Breakfast, which it established in 1953 and which, with congressional sponsorship, it continues to organize every February in Washington, D.C. Each year 3,000 dignitaries, representing scores of nations, pay $425 each to attend. Steadfastly ecumenical, too bland most years to merit much press, the breakfast is regarded by the Family as merely a tool in a larger purpose: to recruit the powerful attendees into smaller, more frequent prayer meetings, where they can “meet Jesus man to man.”

[DURHAM D]

7. Hillary is a Methodist.

I was raised Methodist - in the midwest. We referred to ourselves in the 50s and 60s as "The Church of the Non-Believers". This was in response to the growing number of fundamentalists and evangelicals around us. Later the unitarians took the title away from us. My point is - Methodists are the least scary of all the main stream religions.

[Totally Committed]

14. There is nothing to fear from her being Methodist, I agree. This is terrifying to me, though:

"The authors state Clinton is a member of Coe's possibly most elite cell, the weekly Senate Prayer Breakfast...usually attended by about 40 members...with the regulars being Sam Brownback, Tom Coburn, Joe Lieberman, Mark Pryor,and, until recently, George Allen. Other names sprinkled throughout the article and mentioned as friends of Coe include Tom Delay, John Ashcroft, Edwin Meese III, Rep. Joe Pitts, Jeb Bush, Chuck Colson, James Inhofe, Rick Santorum, and others."

Haven't we had enough "surprises" from our Party sprung on us in the last decade to last us a lifetime? I know I have. Look at the names in that paragraph, fercripessake!

TC

[smoogatz]

56. They eat babies at those prayer breakfasts.

That's what I heard.

[AnnieBW]

150. I thought they ate jello salad?

Isn't that the traditional Methodist food?

[creeksneakers2]

158. I read the stories at the links

and didn't see anything about Hillary at all. Where in the pieces does it say anything about Hillary?

[JerseygirlCT]

184. Those certainly aren't names to make me comfortable, I agree nt

[cascadiance]

21. My Dad was raised Methodist and rejected it!

He was being given the "Footloose" upbringing of not being allowed to dance, etc. then which had him reject religion altogether then.

[DURHAM D]

34. That's interesting.

The MYF (Methodist Youth Fellowship) at my church had dances all of the time. They were more popular than the school dances.

[cascadiance]

62. I think it is probably different at different times and regions...

I have a feeling you are probably talking about more recent times than what my Dad went through (around WWII, etc.). I've read that the Methodist church has reformed a lot more in recent years in many places. But it should therefore not be something that either makes Hillary "good" or "bad", as one can probably find bad or good examples of such churches around the country.

[Adelante]

98. I'm very surprised to hear this

I'm not at all religious but I would sometimes go to a Methodist church just for the music and singing of some of the most beautiful hymns. I never heard that Methodists were conservative, in fact, the opposite. Now my aunts and uncles got hooked into a Mennonite Brethren in Christ church that could make your hair stand on end and in that church no dancing was allowed. They were "born again" way before it became a common thing.

[knitter4democracy]

143. The Methodists used to be more conservative.

Free Methodists still are, from what I hear. Just like the Nazarenes and Wesleyans: no gambling, no porn, no dancing, no alcohol, no smoking, no sex outside of marriage, and dress modestly.

[knitter4democracy]

140. So did I.

I went further and became Nazarene, even more conservative. ;) Never stopped being a feminist, though, and I've just gotten more liberal over time. :)

[bvar22]

102. Methodists don't scare me.

The people Hillary is choosing to "worship" with scare me. (Think Shared Values) :scared:

Someone above said, "the WORST of the WORST". I agree.

[flpoljunkie]

9. I read it this weekend. "The Fellowship" scared the "crap out of me," as well.

[quinnox]

10. I have nothing against religious people

And the atheist vote in the USA is miniscule, so good luck with that.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

25. You are wrong

The Atheist vote is NOT miniscule - Go here http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/larry.king.live/ there is a poll of how many Atheists there are at least at this one site - right now the figure is huge -

It's the typical crap slung from the reich wing - they want everyone to believe that the born again christians are what swings the vote -

Religious people are downright scary - If you aren't frightened by people who dedicate their lives to a belief system that dictates that the world is going to end soon (they keep saying it so it must be true) so it's okay to rape the Earth because, why the hell not?

HAVE YOU SEEN JESUS CAMP?

[liberalsoldier5]

148. No offense at all, but I think you should go out more

and go meet a few Christians and actually talk to them. They can be Catholic or Protestant or any branch really, just hear them out and you might find that everyday mainstream Christians are not what 'Jesus Camp' has led you to believe they are. They way you're refering to belief in God in all, you'd think that you haven't left your house in a decade. You're in what is still a very small minority. The OVERWHELMINGLY majority of this country believes in the stuff that you find outrageous and unbelievable. Including Hillary, which makes sense since she's trying to become our president.

Or you just meant fundamentalist Christians all along. Then you'd be pretty right on.

[RaleighNCDUer]

74. The atheist vote is larger than the much coveted Jewish vote.

In fact, if you split the atheists between its liberal (democratic) and libertarisn (republican) camps, each is larger than the Jewish vote.

But atheists are ignored, and god forbid we should offend AIPAC.

[spoony]

133. Any excuse to holler about Jews eh?

[RaleighNCDUer]

174. Being a Jewish atheist, I find that reply very amusing. nt

[Pawel K]

12. I will fight hard against Hillary's nomination but I dont see your point?

So what? She's religious. News check for you, every candidate is. Its the only way you will win an election in this county.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

26. Yeah, but look who's in her prayer circle.

You don't pray with people you don't like and respect.

Carl Bernstein was pushing his book about Hillary on "the View" one day. He spoke about how Hillary got through Bill's infidelity through praying with this circle of friends we’re talking about. ...I remember him mentioning the (James) Bakers. ....It freaked me out.

[Pawel K]

45. I still don't see what the big deal is. She is whoring religion just like all others

its nothing new and nothing suprising. At this point Clinton has her sights set on the general election, she thinks she has the primaries in the bag so she will pander to the religious right.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

54. Hillary wasn't running for president when Bill cheated on her.

She was where she wanted to be, with her peeps.

[creeksneakers2]

159. That was James Baker's wife

From Bernstein:

Within four weeks after Bill’s inauguration in 1993, Hillary had joined a women’s prayer circle whose members were a surprising group, among them Susan Baker, the wife of James Baker, the Bush’ family’s grand retainer and former secretary of state; Joanne Kemp, wife of the former Republican congressman Jack Kemp, who would run for vice president against the Clinton-Gore ticket in 1996; Grace Nelson, wife of Demcoratic senator Bill Nelson of Florida; and Holly Leachman, wife of Washington Redskins chaplain Jerry Leachman and herself a lay minister at the McLean Bible church in Virginia, where many prominent Republican senators and conservative luminaries worshipped, including Kenneth Starr, soon to be the special prosecutor committed to indefatigable pursuit of Hillary Clinton.


THESE ARE NOT THE SAME PEOPLE AS THE ONES FRAUDULENTLY ASSOCIATED WITH HILLARY ON THIS THREAD

[RaleighNCDUer]

76. She self-proclaims as a 'progressive', but her prayer

circle includes the most regressive people in DC. This isn't Bishop Spong stuff - this is Falwell territory.

You don't see a problem with that?

[rinsd]

13. Bullshit smears by association by a lefty rag.(nt)

[MadHound]

19. Ooo, now that's a classic dismissal of the facts

I would highly recommend that you go do some research into Mother Jones and the people who right for it. Among other things, you will find several Pulitzers and other journalistic prizes, along with staff and contributors that are well known and respected.

[rinsd]

23. How about this.

This is an excerpt posted in another thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3467628

"Unlikely partnerships have become a Clinton trademark. Some are symbolic, such as her support for a ban on flag burning with Senator Bob Bennett (R-Utah) and funding for research on the dangers of video games with Brownback and Santorum........With Santorum, Clinton co-sponsored the Workplace Religious Freedom Act; she didn't back off even after Republican senators such as Pennsylvania's Arlen Specter pulled their names from the bill citing concerns (my emphasis) THAT THE MEASURE WOULD PROTECT THOSE REFUSING TO PERFORM KEY ASPECTS OF THEIR JOBS - SAY, PHARMACISTS WHO WON'T FILL BIRTH CONTROL PRESCRIPTIONS, OR POLICE OFFICERS WHO WON'T GUARD ABORTION CLINICS."

What isn't mentioned is that Kerry, Corzine & Schumer were also co-sponsors of this bill.

Its a transparent attempt to associate Hillary with the looniest of Republicans.

Maybe they should give back their Pulitzers.

[MadHound]

28. And your point is?

I'm not a very big fan of those three either, and frankly none of them are running for the Presidency this cycle.

Frankly, MJ isn't attempting anything, they are simply reporting the facts. And the fact of the matter is that MJ didn't associate Hillary with the looniest of 'Pugs, Hillary did that association all by herself when she joined her little "prayer circle"

I really would suggest that you read the entire article before you continue spouting knee jerk defenses of Hillary. These exerpts don't do it justice, they are just the tip of the iceberg.

Besides, what is wrong with magazines having opinions about candidates? It has been done countless times throughout our history. I don't hear you asking Faux to give back their Pulitzers since Murdoch has cozied up to Hillary. Wait, that's right, Murdoch and company don't have any Pulitzers.

[rinsd]

33. They are not reporting the facts. They are reporting selected facts to support their theory.

IOW its bullshit.

[MadHound]

38. Have you read the article?

I have, and quite frankly it is well written and well documented, published in a magazine that is well known for its devotion to fact checking and being thorough.

You may not like these facts, but to simply dismiss them simply because you don't like them is intellectually dishonest, to say the least. Gee, don't you think seven years of President who did this very thing time and again is enough?

Tell you what. The surest sign that this article is false is if they get sued for libel. How big a donation to DU do you want to bet that Mother Jones is sued over this piece? You're saying this well respected magazine is full of it, well hell, put your money where your mouth is.

[rinsd]

43. Ahhh the Weekly World News method for determing truth based on whether one is sued.

:eyes:

Look I demonstrated how transparent they were by associating her with Santorum making a big deal about reasonable Republicans withdrawing support from the bill while failing to mention prominent liberal Democrats like John Kerry and Jon Corzine were also supporters.

This well respected magazine decided to go for the smear instead of the truth.

Sorry it bothers you to have that put so definitely.

[MadHound]

46. And where did you make this little "demonstration" of yours?

And what, exactly does that have to do with this particular article?

And how can you honestly make these comments of yours without reading the entire article?

And so are you going to put up or shut up?

Yeah, that's about what I thought. Anything bad that is printed about Hillary has to be wrong, she's a saint you know:eyes:

And you Hillary supporters jump all over everybody else for being out there, HAH! Your contortion of the facts, without having read the entire article, is laughable to say the least. You are just knee jerk reacting here, with utterly no interest in the truth.

So sad, so predictable.

[rinsd]

52. LOL. now you're talking to yourself?

Did the article mention the Democrats who supported the religious freedom act or not?

It did not.

It went out of its way to bring in Santorum's name and make a big deal about reasonable republicans like Specter backing away from it. But they never mention that quite a few Democrats supported it.

Even better is they throw in the scare tactic about birth control and pharmacies and this bill never made it past committee.

So smear by association coupled with fear mongering.

What a well respected piece of shit.

[MadHound]

57. In other words you're going to do neither

Either put up or shut up. You're just going to keep blindly supporting Hillary, despite her many obvious faults, criticizing a well respected magazine, despite not having read the full article, and keep insulting people who disagree with you, though such disagreement is quite legit.

Gee, which recent President do these tactics sound like:think:

[rinsd]

64. I just did. You just keep ignoring it.

"You're just going to keep blindly supporting Hillary,"

Except I don't blindly support Hillary. Her recent statement on continuing policies towards Cuba rather than even doing incremental normalization of relations with them is wrong.

"criticizing a well respected magazine, despite not having read the full article"

So my critique was wrong because I didn't read the whole article but their smear is OK even though they didn't present all the facts.

Some world you live in.

[MadHound]

88. LOL!

How can you know whether it is a smear, whether or not they presented all of the facts unless you read the entire article? You are basing your assumptions on a set of quotes, one that were picked out of a rather large article.

Your critique is wrong because it is based on horribly incomplete knowledge. We criticize 'Pugs because they use this same tactic. Hillary supporters are currently complaining of Hillary's surge comment saying that it is being taken out of context. Yet you wish us to believe you because what? You're somehow omniscent? Because you somehow know all about the article, all about what it says, simply based on your desperately flawed, out of context reading of some clips:eyes:

That is simply wrong and hypocritical. Until you've read the full article, you really have no place to speak and your opinion is not to be taken seriously.

[rinsd]

93. So did they mention the Democrats supporting the bill or that Kerry authored it?

I will be more than willing to let it go if they mentioned those facts.

[MadHound]

111. Go read it for yourself

There are many issues tied into this issue of Hillary's faith, and your focusing on one single one, especially when you haven't read the article, is a very limited viewpoint.

Don't expect other people to do your research for you, do your own.

[rinsd]

113. IOW, no they didn't.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

151. Specter....

Specter says reasonable things and then votes along with the rest of the GOP... Go peddle this trite crap to someone who can't read.

Your dialog is childish.

buh-bye.

[MadHound]

50. Oops, delete, double post n/t

[frylock]

58. we should contact the kerry and corzine presidential campaigns..

and complain. oh wait...

[rinsd]

59. I get it., Smears of association are ok when it comes to Hillary Clinton (nt)

[frylock]

65. reasoning with the clinton fan club is tantamount to reasoning with the lieberman supporters..

it's really not worth the time of day. I'll just sign off as I have with many others like yourself; enjoy the status quo.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[creeksneakers2]

160. I read the article

I didn't see anything about Hillary in it.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

122. LOL

LOL-

i mean i am lol - thanks!

[RaleighNCDUer]

78. So what other selected facts are missing?

Does she also belong to a liberal DC prayer group, maybe endorsed by Bishop Spong. Does she support Liberation Theology priests in Central America? Does she volunteer at a UU sponsored shelter?

What selected facts are we not being told that would make associating with the christo-fascists palatable?

[karynnj]

66. The workplace religious freedom act was authored by Kerry

In 2005, he worked with Santorum, his wife's least favorite Senator and one he and Teresa worked hard to defeat, to get bi-partisan support.

He introduced it first in the 1990s and more recently with Santorum. It was a bill motivated to protect people's rights. As to birth control pills - it just said that at pharmacies with multiple pharmasits on duty, they could ask that another pharmasit fill it - but someone at the pharmacy had to do so. (The bill protected everyone from Pagans to fundamentalists) That provision was also in a Boxer bill at the same time. I don't think it passed.

While I think it would be hell to sit in a room with these people, it is guilt by association to assume that she shares their political goals.

[rinsd]

69. Thanks karynnj for your objectivity. I know Clinton is not your favorite.

[karynnj]

165. You're welcome - I don't like either guilt by association

or misrepresenting bills. The funny thing about that bill is - if I am remembering the stuff from 2 years ago right - the people whose problem started Kerry's action were MA pagans and Shihs who were both discriminated against because they were out of the mainstream. The bill was written to protect any one, balancing some practical concerns. Given the Senate in 2005, co-opting Santorum's feeling that Evangelicals are persecuted, was the best way to extend this set of rights. Because the Republicans controled congress it was Santorum/Kerry - Thomas only lists the first sponsor - which is why using it to "prove" what a legislator did understates everyone - because they do work together. (You are right I seriously do not have any liklihood of supporting Hillary - and as I said that would not be a group of people I would want to study anything with - but this reeks of the Skull & Bones nonsense. There are things I will criticize Hillary (or other candidates) for - but this is a cheap shot.

In case you need to fight this again, here is what was done on this - as you can see it was stopped in committee after being introduced. (From memory - Reps didn't like constraints on Businesses and some Democrats didn't like the birth control part.) I like this bill because it refuses to be lock step ideology on either side, but tries to promote tolerance and treating people with respect. Here is the summary in the record and Santorum's speech introducing it.

SUMMARY AS OF:
3/17/2005--Introduced.

Workplace Religious Freedom Act of 2005 - Amends the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to modify the definition of "religion" for purposes of coverage under that Act by requiring employers to make an affirmative and bona fide effort to reasonably accommodate the religious practices of employees. Defines the term "perform the essential functions" to exclude practices having a temporary or tangential impact on an employee's ability to perform job functions, such as practices relating to clothing or taking time off work. Sets forth factors to consider in determining whether an accommodation causes undue hardship. Defines "employee" to require an ability to perform essential job functions with or without reasonable accommodation.

Requires removal of the conflict between employment requirements and the employee's religious practices in order for an accommodation to be considered reasonable.

Considers an employer's refusal to permit an employee's use of general leave to remove a religious conflict solely because the leave will be used to accommodate religious practices to be an unlawful employment practice.

States that the amendments made by this Act do not apply with respect to conduct occurring prior to enactment.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MAJOR ACTIONS:
***NONE***


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ALL ACTIONS:
3/17/2005:
Sponsor introductory remarks on measure. (CR S3057)
3/17/2005:
Read twice and referred to the Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions. (text of measure as introduced: CR S3057-3058)
2/16/2006:
Sponsor introductory remarks on measure. (CR S1407-1409)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TITLE(S): (italics indicate a title for a portion of a bill)
***NONE***


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COSPONSORS(15), ALPHABETICAL : (Sort: by date)
Sen Brownback, Sam - 3/17/2005 Sen Clinton, Hillary Rodham - 3/17/2005
Sen Coburn, Tom - 3/17/2005 Sen Cochran, Thad - 4/4/2005
Sen Coleman, Norm - 4/4/2005 Sen Cornyn, John - 4/4/2005
Sen Corzine, Jon S. - 3/17/2005 Sen Dole, Elizabeth - 4/27/2005
Sen Ensign, John - 3/17/2005 Sen Hatch, Orrin G. - 3/17/2005
Sen Kerry, John F. - 3/17/2005 Sen Lieberman, Joseph I. - 3/17/2005
Sen Schumer, Charles E. - 3/17/2005 Sen Smith, Gordon H. - 3/17/2005
Sen Talent, Jim - 3/17/2005



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMITTEE(S):
Committee/Subcommittee: Activity:
Senate Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Referral, In Committee



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RELATED BILL DETAILS: (additional related bills may be indentified in Status)
Bill: Relationship:
H.R.1445 Identical bill identified by CRS



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AMENDMENT(S):
***NONE***


Here is Santorum's description from the Senate record:

Mr. SANTORUM. Mr. President, I rise today to introduce the Workplace Religious Freedom Act. I am pleased to be joined in this effort by Senator KERRY and appreciate the work he has done on this bill over the years. I am also pleased to have a number of Senators, both Democrats and Republicans, liberals and conservatives, join me in cosponsoring this important legislation.

The bill we introduce today is intended to ensure that employees are not forced to choose between their religious beliefs and practices and keeping their jobs. It recognizes that an individual's faith impacts every part of their life, including the many hours spent in the workplace. America is distinguished internationally as a land of religious freedom, and it should be a place where people are not forced to choose between keeping their faith and keeping their job. This simple proposition is why we are re-introducing the Workplace Religious Freedom Act (WRFA), which provides a balanced approach to reconciling the needs of people of faith in the workplace with those of employers.

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was meant to address conflicts between religion and work. It requires employers to reasonably accommodate the religious needs of their employees so long as it does not impose an undue hardship on the employer. The problem is that our federal courts have essentially ruled that any hardship is an undue hardship and have thus left religiously observant workers with little or no legal protection. WRFA will re-establish the principle that employers must reasonably accommodate the religious needs of employees. This legislation is carefully crafted and strikes an appropriate balance, respecting religious accommodation while ensuring that an undue burden is not forced upon employers. WRFA is also careful to ensure that the accommodation of an individual employee's religious conscience will not adversely affect the delivery of products or services to an employer's customers or clients.

The balance that this legislation seeks to establish is evident in the broad spectrum of groups supporting this bill, including the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations, the Southern Baptist Convention, the National Council of Churches, the North American Council for Muslim Women, the Sikh Resource Taskforce, the Seventh Day Adventist Church, the American Jewish Committee, Agudath Israel of America, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops and many others.

America is a great nation because we honor not only the freedom of conscience, but also the freedom to exercise one's religion according to the dictates of that religious conscience. This fundamental freedom is protected and strengthened in this legislation by re-establishing an appropriate balance between the demands of work and the principles of faith.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

82. Haaa! I am LOL

Lefty Rag?

Are you fucking serious? It is a well respect lefty rag....

For the first five years of its history, Mother Jones operated with an editorial board, and members of the board took turns serving as managing editor for one-year terms. People who served on the editorial team during those years included Adam Hochschild, Paul Jacobs, Deborah Johnson, Jeffrey Klein, Carol Polsgrove, Mark Dowie, Amanda Spake, Zina Klapper, and Deirdre English.
In 1981 Deirdre English was named the magazine’s first editor-in-chief, a position she held until 1986. A strong feminist, she brought women’s voices to the fore in the magazine and oversaw considerable coverage of Central America, the Sandinistas, and the Contras. She also brought in Barbara Ehrenreich as a regular columnist.
Michael Moore followed English and edited Mother Jones for several months. After being fired in the fall of 1986, Moore sued Mother Jones for wrongful termination and settled with the magazine’s insurance company for $58,000. Moore did not have a chance to shape a direction he had in mind for the magazine. Many of the articles that were printed during his time as editor were articles that had already been commissioned by Deirdre English. An article by Paul Berman about Nicaragua, which was slightly critical of the Sandinistas, (Mother Jones generally supported the Sandinistas) was one of those articles commissioned by English. Moore did not want to print it, but the magazine had made a commitment to Berman. The Nation columnist Alexander Cockburn believed the disagreement over the Berman article was the sole reason of the firing, but Hochschild and others at the magazine denied this.<1><2> Books about Moore by Jesse Larner (Forgive Us Our Spins: Michael Moore and the Future of the Left) and Roger Rapoport (Citizen Moore: The Life and Times of an American Iconoclast) extensively cover Moore's difficult relationships with people during his brief editorship.
Douglas Foster, an Emmy-winning TV producer and a writer who had covered labor issues for Mother Jones in the 1970s, followed Moore. Foster’s magazine featured regular columns from Molly Ivins, Roger Wilkins, and Ralph Nader. During his tenure, the magazine excerpted Randy Shilts' groundbreaking book, "And the Band Played On: Politics, People, and the AIDS Epidemic."
In the fall of 1992, Jeffrey Klein, one of the original editorial team, returned as editor-in-chief, bringing an intense focus on Washington politics, including extensive coverage of Newt Gingrich, campaign finance, and the tobacco industry. He was a frequent guest on radio and television shows, spearheaded many collaborations between the magazine and website, and brought comedian Paula Poundstone on as a regular columnist.
Roger Cohn succeeded Klein as editor-in-chief in 1999. Cohn brought to the fore environmental and social justice stories from around the country. It was during his tenure that the 25-year-old Mother Jones won a 2001 National Magazine Award for General Excellence.
Russ Rymer was named editor-in-chief in early 2005, and under his tenure the magazine published more essays and extensive packages of articles on domestic violence (July/August 2005)<1>, and the role of religion in politics (December 2005).<2>
In August 2006, Monika Bauerlein and Clara Jeffery were promoted from within to become co-editors of the magazine. Bauerlein and Jeffery, who had served as interim editors between Cohn and Rymer, were also chiefly responsible for some of the biggest successes of the magazine in the past several years, including a package on ExxonMobil's funding of climate change "deniers" (May/June 2005) <3> that was nominated for a National Magazine Award for Public Interest reporting; a package on the rapid decline in the health of the ocean (March/April 2006) <4>, and the magazine's massive Iraq War Timeline interactive database. <5>
The first post-baby boomer editors in the history of Mother Jones, Bauerlein and Jeffery have used a new investigative team of senior and young reporters to increase original reporting, web-based database tools, and blog commentary on MotherJones.com. The cover of their first issue (November 2006) asked: "Evolve or Die: Can humans get past denial and deal with global warming?"

[Chicken George]

20. I believe that man created Gods...

so no, I'm not scared. What scares me more are former Republicans turned Democrat and 3'rd party aficionados attempting to hijack the Democratic Party and scare the Hillary supporters into submission. Thanks but no thanks....

[QueenOfCalifornia]

29. WTF?

You should be scared- also - What do you mean 3rd party and former republican?

That's crazy talk.

Like I said - Have you seen Jesus Camp?

I'm not talking about some Methodist going to church on Sunday stuff -- I am talking about Evangelical Born Again Crap -She goes to a elite prayer circle with Joe Lieberman... That should make you at least think about who you are voting for.

[Chicken George]

42. ROFL

I'm crapping my pants at the thought of "Talibornagains" praying. Yep, the end of the world is near with Hillary at the helm...LOL

[muriel_volestrangler]

142. And you think Joe Lieberman is a born again evangelical himself?

Obviously the 'prayer circle' can accommodate differing beliefs.

[RaleighNCDUer]

186. Wouldn't that indicate that the group is not about prayer, then,

but rather about shared political ideals?

[QueenOfCalifornia]

193. Yes!

That is it exactly.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

41. I don’t think anyone wants to scare...

...or intimated Hillary supporters into submission.

I just think that there are many of us here who are scared that the Clintons are too close to the Bushes. ...It sure looks as if a lot of the legislation that passed through during the Clinton years laid the ground work for the mess we’re in now.

I think it’s the patriotic duty of people who are in the know to spread the TRUTHFUL word about a candidate who could be our next president.

...by the way, welcome to the DU :)

[SIMPLYB1980]

30. So I guess your going to Jump on the others to.

Obama is United Church of God.
Edwards is United Methodist.
Kucinich is Catholic.

Who do you "support"?

[frylock]

61. are they in prayer circles with the likes of brownback and santorum?

I know it can be difficult, but please try and stay on topic. thx.

[SIMPLYB1980]

83. I don't see where my statement was off topic.

I'm not even religious. There could be a god or there could be "insert a belief, or scientific theory here." I don't see why having a prayer circle is such a bad thing, even if you are a wing nut, and I do think that the other candidates I mentioned attend church on occasion. Isn't that just a large prayer group? I know who you don't support but how about explaining you stance in regard to the person you do "support."

[frylock]

87. my candidate's stance is quixotic and not idealistic enough for the corporate crowd..

and conflating religion or attending church to a prayer circle with members like Rick Santorum is naive, at best.

[SIMPLYB1980]

108. And who would that be.

I don't see anyone running that fits that description. Perhaps if you give me a name instead of an asinine comment, and as for "conflating religion or attending church to a prayer circle with members like Rick Santorum is naive, at best." I don't know if you have ever attended a church, but you find that in almost every church you have differing viewpoints. I don't regularly attend church anymore, but when I was growing up I did, and there were ultra right, ultra left, and God forbid Moderates that all attended my church. Yes we all had differing viewpoints, but we all came together for worship. So who's really being naive hear? I think it's you.

[RaleighNCDUer]

187. The common bond there is the church, the shared religious

expression.

This 'prayer breakfast' does not have a common religious bond - as is evidenced by the range from southern baptists to catholics to methodists to jews.

So what is the common bond between Santorum and Lieberman and Hillary?

[QueenOfCalifornia]

84. Dear Diary,

I am not going to support Hillary for president because she stands in a circle and holds hands with Joe Lieberman and Santorum and she voted to give W a shit load of money so he could keep up all that good and Godly work over in Iraq - I can't support someone whose values are out of whack with my own - I am pro union and want to give the little guy, the working person a fucking break and make the oil companies and all the other big businesses pay their fair share and I don't believe that Hillary, who sits on the board of directors of WalMart, has the little guys back. I want to see an end to an occupation of a country we have zero business in and Hillary has plans to stay the course and expand her way throughout the Middle East. I want every person in this country to have a medical plan that brings us up to the level of other countries who provide health care for their citizens.

Love,
Gilligan

[SIMPLYB1980]

92. I didn't ask you to.

Thanks for the Dissertation.

[puebloknot]

123. I support the candidate who understands...

and supports the concept of separation of church and state, and does not engage in pandering to religious groups to gain votes.

[SaveElmer]

32. Unclean...Unclean....the Leviticus Liberals are at it again...

Doesn't matter what your record is, doesn't matter what your own personal beliefs are, if you have any association with anyone that disagrees with Democratic principles you are unclean and shall be smitten into Hell!!!

[UNCLE_Rico]

37. You simply don't understand the group we're talking about...

This is from an article about The Fellowship, aka The Family.

(gee, who ELSE likes to call itself The Family)

I strongly urge EVERYONE to read about these people.

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2003/03/0079525

Jesus plus nothing:
Undercover among America's secret theocrats

Two weeks into my stay, David Coe, Doug's son and the presumptive heir to leadership of the Family, dropped by the house. My brothers and I assembled in the living room, where David had draped his tall frame over a burgundy leather recliner like a frat boy, one leg hanging over a padded arm.

“You guys,” David said, “are here to learn how to rule the world.”
<snip>

“Hey,” David said, “let's talk about the Old Testament. Who would you say are its good guys?”

“David,” Beau volunteered.

“King David,” David Coe said. “That's a good one. David. Hey. What would you say made King David a good guy?” He was giggling, not from nervousness but from barely containable delight.
<snip>

“King David,” David Coe went on, “liked to do really, really bad things.” He chuckled. “Here's this guy who slept with another man's wife—Bathsheba, right?—and then basically murders her husband. And this guy is one of our heroes.” David shook his head. “I mean, Jiminy Christmas, God likes this guy! What,” he said, “is that all about?”

The answer, we discovered, was that King David had been “chosen.” To illustrate this point David Coe turned to Beau. “Beau, let's say I hear you raped three little girls. And now here you are at Ivanwald. What would I think of you, Beau?”

Beau shrank into the cushions. “Probably that I'm pretty bad?”

“No, Beau. I wouldn't. Because I'm not here to judge you. That's not my job. I'm here for only one thing.”

“Jesus?” Beau said. David smiled and winked.

He walked to the National Geographic map of the world mounted on the wall. “You guys know about Genghis Khan?” he asked. “Genghis was a man with a vision. He conquered”—David stood on the couch under the map, tracing, with his hand, half the northern hemisphere—“nearly everything. He devastated nearly everything. His enemies? He beheaded them.” David swiped a finger across his throat. “Dop, dop, dop, dop.”

[SaveElmer]

72. She did not join The Family...

She joined the Senate Prayer Breakfast...

Has Hillary done any of the things you describe..

Is she Pro-Choice?

Is she Pro-Seperation of CHurch and State?

Is she prog gay civil unions?

Is she anti prayer in schools?

The answer to the first question is no and to the rest is yes...

So I don't see the actual problem

[creeksneakers2]

162. I don't see one word about Hillary in that article

I don't even see anything about the Senate prayer breakfast. The national prayer breakfast is mentioned. That's held yearly and thousands of people attend, including most Washington politicians. I remember during a 2004 debate Cheney said he'd never met Edwards, and Cheney's lie was debunked by a picture of Cheney and Edwards at the head table of the national prayer breakfast.

Here's a list in the article of family members:

The Family is, in its own words, an “invisible” association, though its membership has always consisted mostly of public men. Senators Don Nickles (R., Okla.), Charles Grassley (R., Iowa), Pete Domenici (R., N.Mex.), John Ensign (R., Nev.), James Inhofe (R., Okla.), Bill Nelson (D., Fla.), and Conrad Burns (R., Mont.) are referred to as “members,” as are Representatives Jim DeMint (R., S.C.), Frank Wolf (R., Va.), Joseph Pitts (R., Pa.), Zach Wamp (R., Tenn.), and Bart Stupak (D., Mich.). Regular prayer groups have met in the Pentagon and at the Department of Defense, and the Family has traditionally fostered strong ties with businessmen in the oil and aerospace industries. The Family maintains a closely guarded database of its associates, but it issues no cards, collects no official dues. Members are asked not to speak about the group or its activities.

Hillary is nowhere in it.

[William769]

35. We have seen what eight years of the Clinton's Religion has done in the White House.

I'm not worried at all.

Your feeble attempt to make something out of nothing is just that, feeble.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

48. Yeah, I fought a mean fight defending Clinton for years...

Life was good during the Clinton years, but we have to consider these facts:

During the Gulf War when Defense Secretary Cheney privatized our military, Clinton left it that way.

Clinton enacted the Iraqi Liberation Act of ‘98, laying the foundation for the mess we’re in today.

Clinton advised our democratic leaders to sign the Iraq Resolution. ....(During one of the debates Edwards out-and-out said he was advised by “the Clintons”. Being Edwards co-sponsored the resolution, one would think he knew it inside and out.)

It was Clinton’s Telecommunications Act of 1996 which consolidated the number of major media companies from around 80 to 6. ...Now our news is force-fed to us from corporate cronies.

And, it was Clinton who gave us NAFTA, which led to outsourcing our jobs overseas, which helped out Hillary’s ex-employer Wal-mart big-time!

It broke my heart when I realized Clinton wasn't the leader I thought he was.

[KoKo]

80. That was my experience, too.

And I defended him so much I lost friends I'd had for years.... If I had known then what I know now about the stage he set for the Hell we've lived through under these Criminals...well....I would have been wiser. I just can't give the Clintons another chance (to maybe right their wrongs) when look at what Bush II has done to us.

[Gloria]

114. That's the way I feel, too, KoKo01

[QueenOfCalifornia]

49. Feeble

I've never been called that before. Wow. I think you need to read the fucking article that is linked - It is not something out of nothing... It is something out of a big, fat pile of weirdo religious crap.

[William769]

55. Feeble is as feeble does.

[spoony]

135. Yep, I'll take that any day.

[tandot]

36. Are there any Democratic atheists running?

Who are you voting for?

:shrug:

[QueenOfCalifornia]

44. Me?

I am voting for Kucinich - I am not afraid of regular religious folks - I am afraid of The Family. You really need to read the article. Honest.

Look - if Hillary wins the nomination then I will have to vote for her - I wont vote for a third party. I saw what Nader did and it sucked. I just think that a person, like Kucinich, who has a clear and concise plan and who doesn't go to a f-ing prayer circle with Joe f-ing Lieberman is a far better person for the job.

[Speck Tater]

40. Democrat - Republican, Does it matter?

They all belong to the same ruling elite. They are all reading from the same script. Campaigns and elections are just staged as entertainment for the masses to give them the impression that they have some small amount of influence over the oligarchy. It's just an illusion. It's better if you just keep your nose out of it and go about your daily business. Ignorance is bliss. War just means prosperity. The terrorists are everywhere, but Big Brother will protect of you. Look into my eyes. Sleep. Sleep. Sleep. OMG! Is that Paris Hilton over there?

[Pawel K]

51. Paris Hilton , where?

[smoogatz]

53. I don't care what she professes to believe.

But I do wish she'd stop eating babies. It's very disturbing.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

128. getting old

your eating babies comment is getting really old.

[smoogatz]

138. So, you're defending Hillary

even though she eats babies?

[mzmolly]

60. Gore is a Southern Baptist. Carter is an evangelist by his definition.

Kennedy was a Catholic.

Those of us who respect a separation of Church/State should support the right for others to practice religion or not. I don't like the notion of a collective "God led" legislative body (that agrees on how the spirit moves them to act on our behalf) but I do not shudder at the thought of her as President because someone deems her "evangelical."

[WillTheGoober]

63. heh...

We want a President to represent a nation.
And this nation has people of faith in it.

For the most part, I think the majority of this country believes in spirituality -- but believes it's a private matter and one that should influence law.

In my opinion, Hillary would not allow religion to influence law.

Also -- I think Bush's religious justifications for things is simply crap.
I don't think Bush is a very religious man at all, in fact.

Thanks though -- I suppose we'll keep digging for things to bring her down, huh?

Can we talk about the positives of candidates who deserve a vote instead of highlighting the negatives?

I don't expect anyone to support Hillary -- I expect though that everyone has someone to support. :)

Peace.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

77. Shut Your Eyes....

So, what you are saying is that we should all just close our eyes to this - Huh? We have to sing campfire songs and all hold hands? How about forming an opinion based on facts? Is that okay with you?

Like I said - If I am forced to, I will vote for Hillary in the general election but I will do it kicking and screaming.

How about how Hillary supported the ambush of Iraq and gave Dubya a blank check? She is a HAWK. I just found the article very telling -

Do you close your eyes when you know she sits on the board of WalMart?

I don't hate her. I just do not want her to be the President of the United States.

As for a president representing a nation - and people of faith - Yeah? And so... Dubya talks to God. He said so. That horses ass does not represent me.

[WillTheGoober]

79. Ok ...

I don't know that you get very far approaching someone like you are with me right now.

I'm not sensitive -- and certainly I understand your frustrations. So I'm not attempting in any way to make you feel bad or to influence you -- but I think the approach of the "outraged liberal" is becoming a liability -- and quite frankly has never served our purpose very well.

Ultimately, we're at our best when we communicate clearly and with a centered (not to be confused with centrist) mind about things.

Nobody is asking you to have a campfire sing along.
Certainly -- I'm not. lol -- I live in a high rise apartment in a City ... so not too many campfires around here.

I do think that this country realistically (perhaps, not ideally) is going to elect someone that can represent a wide spectrum. It's unfortunate that the Republican Party has hijacked Jesus -- because Jesus, even if you consider him a fictional story, has a lot of very valuable and liberal lessons.

I think a Dem with faith is certainly a vehicle for getting back some of those passengers of faith that have been hijacked by the right wing.

Peace.

[SaveElmer]

67. So what is the actual problem here...this is the Senate Prayer Breakfast...

Her goal was to become as competent and influential in the Senate as she could. Forty members attend this breakfast...it is one of the centers of power for conservative members, with whom she would be working, I'm not sure I see the issue...

She is reliably pro-choice(unlike another candidate I can think of), reliably opposed to com-mingling of church and state, reliably against school prayer, reliably for civil unions...among many other things...

Her religious views are well known, and have been the subject of extensive news pieces...she is a liberal protestant, her religious mentor was kicked out of his church for views considered too radical...

It's a ridiculous case, yet again, or guilt by association...

The Leviticus Liberals just cannot get their minds around the notion that simply ignoring those that disagree with us, even profoundly disagree with us, is simply a recipe for perpetual division...as Howard Dean has been saying all along!!!

[QueenOfCalifornia]

119. The prayer breakfast is a problem if...

...you want to keep politics and religion separate intities - Please read the article I linked to instead of assuming I went off half cocked - Here is an excerpt from The Daily Kos's article:

I'm going to skip the parts of the article describing Hillary's time at Wellesley and go directly to Washington in 1993 when Hillary joined a bible study group (The Fellowship" or "the Family") described as one of

a network of sex-segregated cells of political, business and military leaders dedicated to "spiritual war" on behalf of Christ.

According to a quote from former Senator Wm. Armstrong, these groups "make a fetish of being invisible"

The Fellowship believes that the elite win power by the will of God who uses them for his purposes. It's mission is to help the powerful understand their role in God's plan.

The leader of The Fellowship is Doug Coe...and it's long-term goal is

"a leadership led by God-Leaders at all levels of society who direct projects as they are led by the spirit."

The authors state Clinton is a member of Coe's possibly most elite cell, the weekly Senate Prayer Breakfast...usually attended by about 40 members...with the regulars being Sam Brownback, Tom Coburn, Joe Lieberman, Mark Pryor,and, until recently, George Allen. Other names sprinkled throughout the article and mentioned as friends of Coe include Tom Delay, John Ashcroft, Edwin Meese III, Rep. Joe Pitts, Jeb Bush, Chuck Colson, James Inhofe, Rick Santorum, and others.

The authors leave one to draw his or her own conclusions...and provide further insight through interviews with and quotes from others who are familiar with Coe and "The Fellowship." They do state the Fellowships's

faith is always evangelical and the politics always move right.

[muriel_volestrangler]

145. Here's something unexpected:

a network of sex-segregated cells ... Clinton is a member of Coe's possibly most elite cell

So women are in charge of all this? Wow, you wouldn't have expected that, would you? I guess they've been playing a really long game, if the elite in 'The Family' are women.

[PurityOfEssence]

73. Whether she's just playing a game for power or whether she's really with them doesn't matter

She just gets more and more disturbing upon further examination.

[KoKo]

81. I think Hillary tends to cultivate those she can use to further her ambitions

and that old expression: "Lie down with dogs end up with fleas" comes to mind. Her opportunism means she has to at some point expect those she's used to call in their favors. :-(

Otherwise she seems like a charming, intelligent and gifted politician. But, not one we should be taking a chance on with this country going to hell.

[PurityOfEssence]

105. Yep, and therein lies the problem

Besides "becoming President", what the hell are those ambitions? I like the village. I like the try at health care, but that was 15 YEARS AGO, and she's been mighty cozy with biguglymedicine since then. Then there's that war.

"Charming" has plenty of smarmy and ingratiating connotations, and its basic appeal is that of being good company, which is more-or-less an expression of casual (even lazy) comfort.

"Intelligent" is a function of circuitry, and has no moral "given" to it at all, although it should be a prerequisite for such a complex job as President; Roy Cohn was brilliant and Cheney's a pretty sharp snickerdoodle himself.

"Politician" is absolutely rife with bad connotations, and just because one is adept at greasing around issues, gracefully dancing through controversies and positioning oneself doesn't mean that person will put those skills to good use. Often, the skills and years spent honing them overpower the reality that these tactics are only of use to mankind when applied to something. Will she do so? To what would she if she did?

Is she sucking up to extreme religion because she means it or because it's a valuable alliance? If doing it sneakily, do we want someone so beyond cagey on the subject of religion? If she's sincere, I don't want her anywhere near the helm.

[PATRICK]

89. Sometimes I wish

the monitors could gather all the enthusiastic posters on the same current topic or event under one single discussion. And perhaps the original posters could start off by being a bit more informative or objective and save the rants for the reply sections. No offense to the current posters. This happens to everything posted on DU once something new develops a multiple posting existence.

An earlier posting on this subject was far less incendiary and more thoughtful and brings up the real points. The current posting smacks of good old fashioned political clobbering such as I enjoy when talking to my sons for hours of high pitched arm waving on end.

[KoKo]

91. Do you have a link to the other thread? Thanks...

[PATRICK]

100. I don't know how to link to

Ninga's "Run don't walk" to the Mother Jones article. Unexpectedly I got some heat there whereas you have been very polite with an off topic comment.

BTW, what was the original story of Hillary seancing with Eleanor Roosevelt? That means she has been very
ecumenical with the fringe religion crowd. The fact that one is red meat for the right and the other for the left is a great boost for the cause of having an atheist for the next president.

[creeksneakers2]

163. One time Hillary said something similar to

"When I have doubts I look to the spirit of Eleanor Roosevelt." The right wing in 1992 claimed this meant Hillary was calling back Eleanor Roosevelt through seances. Its a ridiculous story, that they ran around the same time they ran the one about Hillary wanting children to be able to sue their parents.

[PATRICK]

178. Stories persist

and back then I was not purging the disease online. These stories are holy writ to the hate consumed people who dislike her. Now we have people on the left wanting to add to that scripture with zeal, despite fact checking online. People in prayer groups have generally a poorer assessment of the connection between prayer and the actions of the participants in direct proportion to the gap. Objective observers can be revolted in the same proportionate degrees, but it is not the prayer but the actions that really count. The gist of the article was self-deception and influences, but only the story will be remembered, and likely not by the right.

For me this adds to known conclusions about the old Foggy Bottom Gospel choir. Even the barbershop quartets are revolting. Maybe we should forbid Congress to convene and make them conduct their business in local public forums while they post their speeches and work online. Seriously.

It is no defense of Hillary or the GOP "good Christian hypocrites"- the oxymoron that perishes on Judgment Day, just saying this is a typical affirmation of what I think I've already seen. The fact she was not really channeling Eleanor or having Nancy Reagan hobbies clarifies the fact she is less a chameleon than an honest dupe. It clarifies the ludicrous blinkered "moral" war against video games that ignores their being coerced into campaign bribes or making games blatantly supportive of a war culture. I almost wish she was in part the calculating shibboleth the RW story portrays for the sake of people buying into the convenient myths that form the shallow Dem support pool. No one is on key to the factual evidence and the more important intuitive critiques, just the stories.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

191. uh?

I don't "hate her."

I do not trust

"The Family" as far as I can toss them (or her -...)

As Dobie Gillis would say:

Your post is fucking weird man....

Do you talk like that in real life?

[Vinca]

90. A guy on a local talk show said what I've been thinking.

People (especially presidential candidates) who put their fate - and, worse yet, our fate - in the hands of a metaphysical being need a sanity test.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

171. I'll ....

...Second that emotion.

[zulchzulu]

94. There's nothing wrong with being spiritual

I thought trying to paint Senator Clinton as some evangelical zombie is a bit tedious. If anything, there's nothing wrong with being spiritual as long as you separate your spirituality from making political decisions, as in separation of church and state.

I know a few progressives who are very spiritual and hate the idea that the Rovian view of Republicanism is the only party of spirituality.

It's a stretch in my view to say she is a member of the "Christian Taliban".

[FiveGoodMen]

95. If she was going to separate her spirituality from making political decisions...

...then why is she talking about this during the campaign?

At the least, she must want people to think that her spirituality would inform her political decisions.

[zulchzulu]

96. All the candidates have talked about their spirituality...

...and from what I've seen and read, they all specifically define their spirituality as a separate component from their political decisions, as in separation of church and state.

I'm willing to give them the benefit of a doubt on this.

I don't bash Christians even though I am more of an agnostic than what I was raised as. Call me a bit of a Taoist with a little Hopi on the side...

[FiveGoodMen]

97. Agreed that they all do it.

Stand by my comment that they really shouldn't.

[zulchzulu]

101. I usually roll my eyes when a religious-laced statement is made...

...especially in a debate answer.

As Todd Rundgren wrote in tune "Eastern Intrigue":

As the sun rises in the east
As the wind blows the fog across the sea
As the hand of Man creeps across the face of the world
Caught in a web of glamours
Persian perfume and oriental eyes
Yogi in knots and Sufi wise
Master sublime and swami high
Throw in some Voodoo on the side
And a dash of the old Kung Fu
Lord you got me strung out on eastern intrigue
Chapter six and verse eleven
If you wanna get to heaven
You've got to ask the Man who owns the Property
Ya gotta dance your dance
And do your act
And get His Big Attention that's a natural born fact
I'm on my knees, one question please
Will the real God please stand up?

Jesus and Moses, Mohammed, and Sri Krishna
Steiner, Gurdjief, Blavatsky, and Bhudda
Guru Maharaji, Reverend Sun Myung Moon

On the banks of the Holy Nile
As the palm tree sways at the base of the sphinx
'Neath a crescent desert moon many thousands
younger than ours
In fact, forget about time completely
Think of it in the abstract please
Think of the swaying tropic trees
One of your many destinies
Like having a hot peyote tea
In the palace of Fu Manchu
Lord you got me strung out on eastern intrigue
Sell your wife and pawn your heater
Buy the new Bhagavad Gita
Do the pranayama 'til your spine gets sore
I'll tell you for free
'Cause God told me
We checked it with the Pope and so we all agree
I'm on my knees, one question please
Will the real God please sit down?

[LynneSin]

99. I'm a Christian - you have a problem with that

God forbid our candidates want to include Christians as their supporter.

I believe in separation of Church & State but that doesn't mean we ignore them either.

[FiveGoodMen]

103. If they won't separate church and state in their campaign

they won't in office.

[LynneSin]

104. Any other assisine opinions you'd like to make

Seriously - please, we Christians love being lumped in with all those fundie nut jobs that screw up our faith

[FiveGoodMen]

107. You're responding to things I didn't say. Look again.

[LynneSin]

110. Thanks for making me re-read this

I'd like to know how the Athiest Taliban expect to get rid of the republicans out of office by alienating everyone who believes in some form of organized religion.

I hope that better clarifies my statement

[FiveGoodMen]

115. It's the Atheist Taliban that wants separation of church and state?

Who knew they'd been around since the Bill of Rights was written?

[goodgd_yall]

109. There are christians and

there are christians. I would not vote for a fundamentalist of any religion.

[LynneSin]

112. Very true - so who gets to decide who are the good Christians and who aren't

:shrug:

Trust me - I hate the fundies too - but there is absolutely nothing wrong with a political candidate meeting with people of all faith including those whose religions might not agree with our own beliefs.

[Bake]

116. But it's OK when Obama pimps his religion, right?

So why aren't you screaming loud and long about Obama's religious pandering?

Oh, I get it. "That's different."

Bake

[QueenOfCalifornia]

120. Paleeze

When I find out that anyone, not just Hillary, is joining up with crazy, religious factions, I will post on that too. I read the article. The group is extreme and it has political ramifications since they believe they are on a religious mission... errrr.

If Obama or Kucinich or Edwards is a member of the elite prayer circle, I'll be all over that - To be honest I don't hate Hillary - I think she is charming, smart and a pro-politician - I just do not want any more mingling of religion with our political system. I would never go out and campaign for Hillary - she has done too many things that I am not in line with but this sets her apart from the other candidates. It is I repeat, scary.

Okay?

[LittleClarkie]

117. So excuse her for going to church

you don't really think she's going to legislate her faith, do you? Has she yet in the Senate?

So she's Christian. So are several Democrats. Oh, the horror.

They didn't say she was a fundy for fucks sake.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

126. uh...pssst...

they didn't say she was a fundie?

Are you kidding me?

Did you read the article?

[puebloknot]

118. So Hillary has gone over to the "Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy" she so cogently...

...described, back in the day.

I supported her then. I'm embarrassed for her now, with all her posturing and reinventing herself to blend in wherever she happens to be speaking.

I'm disappointed in her. And I feel she's a threat to this country's freedom.

Likewise, I watch Obama and think how charming and intelligent he is. And then he turns me off with his "faith" talk. Edwards, too, makes talk of his religion, but he comes across as a little less fervent than his associates.

For all of them: Keep it in your overcoat. I'm not interested. It does not belong in public political discourse. Separation of church and state is not some clever New Age thing; neither it is something that is *so* last century. It is the foundation upon which this country was built.

[McCamy Taylor]

127. HIllary was alway that way. It isn't a political stance. If Bill can live with it

then so can I. He wouldn't have married her if she was some kind of freaky Stepford Wife.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

129. ?

What?

Huh?

How the hell do you know what "Bill" would do?

[muriel_volestrangler]

136. A question: a 'prayer circle' including Joe Lieberman is clearly not Christian

but instead some kind of general monotheistic thing - it couldn't get very specific without either its Jewish or Christian members coming across some fairly basic disagreements with their basic beliefs.

What, then, is actually meant to happen at these meetings? I don't really see how something can be 'evangelical' with both Jewish and Christian members. Unless the spend the time trying to convert each other, with no apparent success.

[eridani]

168. No, it isn't Christian. It's about power and imperial domination n/t

[QueenOfCalifornia]

190. Exactly.

Wish I had thought of saying that.

[rosesaylavee]

137. YO! DUERS ON THIS THREAD...

This is not about Methodists. The Methodist faith is not in question here. Methodists are fine people.

The concern expressed here is about ultra-conservative prayer breakfasts held in secret by groups of US governmental officials and representatives. Hillary is allegedly part of this network. It would be great if one of her supporters could find out if she does or does not belong to this group. That would be most helpful.

Thanks for getting the information and letting us know.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

144. Thank you

Really, thanks.

I was thinking it but didn't write it --

[rosesaylavee]

147. No problem...

getting off on a tangent happens when its an emotional topic. I have PMed a Hillary supporter who may get the information and share here with us.

[madrchsod]

153. dam right! i`m a methodist and proud of it!

in fact i could be considered as a "shout`n methodist"


she is friends with a woman in a mainstream evangelical church.the woman helped /counseled her during the impeachment hearings and they have been friends ever since. hillary is far from being a fundamentalist

it really is a test of faith when one reads the anti religion crap on this board.

by the way fundamentalism and evangelical are not the same.

[rosesaylavee]

175. I didn't read the OP in the same way

you did. I see it addressing a concern about the secrecy of the group - not that the group is so much Christian as it is meeting in secret with Republicans we know aren't about following the words and actions of chrisitianity (ie. Tom Delay, etc.)

Myself, I plan on buying the Mother Jones issue today to read about it for myself.

[creeksneakers2]

164. Where is it alleged that Hillary is part of a

secret network, other than a post on DailyKos that isn't supported by the material its linked to?

[rosesaylavee]

173. The Mother Jones article

is what I was referring to. Apparently this article is in its upcoming printed mag and they won't post it online until later in September. It is a concern to me - I don't see it as a religious issue but a political one. Meeting with the RWingers in a public bi-partisan manner is what is expected of any leader in govt. Meeting in secret with a secret agenda is something that needs to be evaluated on a different level.

This is either a well-placed smear and Mother Jones was somehow duped into printing it or its something we DEMs need to know more about. I don't intend to get my shorts in more of bunch over it until I find out more.

[creeksneakers2]

180. It doesn't say a word about Hillary in the Mother Jones article

It doesn't even mention her. There is no link between Hillary and this group. Somebody on DailyKos just made it up and posted the link. Nobody bothered to read the story at the link.

IT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT HILLARY

[rosesaylavee]

181. Have yet to get the article...

BUT, this is where I got the link to HRC:

"The authors state Clinton is a member of Coe's possibly most elite cell, the weekly Senate Prayer Breakfast...usually attended by about 40 members...with the regulars being Sam Brownback, Tom Coburn, Joe Lieberman, Mark Pryor,and, until recently, George Allen. Other names sprinkled throughout the article and mentioned as friends of Coe include Tom Delay, John Ashcroft, Edwin Meese III, Rep. Joe Pitts, Jeb Bush, Chuck Colson, James Inhofe, Rick Santorum, and others."

Like I said, will get a copy today to determine for myself what the hubbub is about. Maybe its the use of the word 'cell' that triggers such a reaction in my psyche or the linking of her with this Coe doesn't sit well with me either. But, I am going to judge for myself and get the printed copy.

Check out the link above to the Harper article too. That was unnerving as well.

[knitter4democracy]

139. I'm an evangelical Christian of sorts.

And I'm pretty danged liberal. I grew up in an evangelical church, went to an evangelical Christian college (where I met Hubby and ultimately switched him from solid GOP to solid liberal Dem), and am now Eastern Orthodox but still a born-again Christian.

So, why is every single evangelical Christian bad? Why should we be demonized and put into boldface? You know, there are a lot of evangelicals who are solidly Dem, solidly liberal, and some of us are even going to vote for Kucinich. ;) Check out Soujourners Magazine before freaking out.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

146. It's not just that...

...Shes an evangelical - it's her membership with the Fellowship Foundation. It is an extremist religious group which fundamentally believes they are on a spiritual mission because they have some form of power... They recruit powerful people and use them to spread their dogma. Go here to read about this group:
http://www.foothillpc.org/pastor_writings/Dysfunction%20in%20Fellowship.pdf

[madrchsod]

155. hillary is not an evangelical

well if she is she`s not very good at it

[QueenOfCalifornia]

177. whatever she is

...she's praying with some of the most hideous asses on the planet.

You may want to read the article.

[knitter4democracy]

176. There's little evidence to say she's part of that group.

She doesn't talk like them, she doesn't meet with them other than at the very large prayer breakfast meetings, and she doesn't believe most of what they believe.

I've read about that group, and while I agree that they need watching and all, it sure looks like they're made up of very conservative Republicans, if anything. Clinton doesn't fit in.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

192. woo-hoo....

She doesn't talk to them?
Are you living in her underpants or something? Below is an independent source:

*Snip from: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200611/green-hillary

The roster of regular participants has included such notable conservative names as Brownback, Santorum, Nickles, Enzi, and Inhofe. Then, in 2001, just after the new class of senators was sworn in, another name was added to the list: Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Clinton doesn't fit in?

You must be kidding me... She has made it a point to go to this Fellowship Prayer Breakfast whenever she can...

[knitter4democracy]

195. Going to the prayer breakfast doesn't make her one of them.

It really doesn't. It gives her access to some of the guys with seniority, and it helps appeal to some in her state, and it softens her image. It doesn't mean she's one of them.

I don't have to live in her panties (sexist comment, btw). I'm an evangelican and know them when I see them. I went to an evangelical Christian college, did mission work, and, while I'm now in the Orthodox Church, I still can spot one. We have our own code, and she doesn't use it.

[Generator]

152. That "girl" will do anything to get elected

I predict she hires Rove Spring of '08. That would be WORTH it just to watch on DU wouldn't it? YES it would.

[illinoisprogressive]

154. More and more like Bushie boy everyday...

[ecstatic]

161. Most Democrats are Christians

If you want to relish in discrimination, then you are the minority. So get to the back of the bus! :-p

[QueenOfCalifornia]

167. another person

who didn't bother to read the article.

Wow.

This is not discrimination against a church going Democrat - This is about the form of religion she is involved in.

[madfloridian]

183. Others in the group....and concerns over separation of church and state.

Family Fortunes
http://www.portlandphoenix.com/features/top/ts_multi/documents/02877356.asp

"But the Family is worrisome for other people, especially because its central mission is to capture the politically powerful within a governmental system supposedly based on the separation of church and state — and this government now has, both supporters and critics agree, imperial power over the world.

" You’re combining, on some level, religion and politics, " Chuck Lewis, director of Washington’s Center for Public Integrity, told the L. A. Times’ Lisa Getter, about the Fellowship.

A similar reaction to the group came from the Reverend Barry Lynn, head of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, as expressed to the AP: " What concerns people is when you mix religion, political power, and secrecy. "

On the Fellowship Foundation’s annual Form 990 tax-exempt-organization report to the Internal Revenue Service, under " Relationship of Activities to Accomplishment of Exempt Purposes, " the foundation declares that its aim is " to identify laymen who have an understanding of what it means to work towards a leadership led by God and introduce them to others with similar goals and interests. " Theocracy literally means government by God, and it could be defined as " a leadership led by God. "

More:

Fellowship finances townhouse where 6 congressmen live
http://www.tennessean.com/government/archives/03/04/31786118.shtml?Element_ID=31786118

And more:

http://www.portlandphoenix.com/features/top/ts_multi/documents/02877355.asp

"Getter quotes the group’s long-time leader, Doug Coe, 73, as saying that its mission is to establish a "family of friends" around the world by spreading the word of Jesus to powerful people: "The people that are involved in this association . . . are the worst and the best. Some are total despots. Some are totally religious. You can find what you want to find."

Members, who carry no cards and are very loosely defined, are required to keep quiet about their activities. But publicly available documents reveal that the Fellowship Foundation — a central legal entity, but far from the only one involved with the group — has an $11-million-a-year budget and a board of directors including Grace Nelson, wife of Florida’s Democratic US Senator Bill Nelson. Its president is Richard Carver, Air Force assistant secretary under President Reagan. Its rich backers include Jerome Lewis, a Denver oilman; Republican contributor Michael Timmis; and Paul Temple, a Maryland investor. Among members, Getter writes, are congressmen who are in charge of the State Department and foreign-aid budgets.

"It’s an incredibly secretive, powerful group that has entree all around the world," Getter said in an interview about her article. "It has tentacles everywhere."

The group was founded by Abraham Vereide, a Methodist minister who, in 1930s’ Seattle, thought he could fight Socialist influence in local government through the power of prayer groups. He took his idea to Washington during World War 2, where the political establishment — particularly, the right — embraced him. The first National Prayer Breakfast was held in 1953, with President Eisenhower in attendance. One of Vereide’s first supporters on Capitol Hill was Senator Ralph Owen Brewster, a Maine Republican who had won a term as governor in the 1920s by gaining the support of the Klu Klux Klan, and who himself may have been a Klan member.

In addition to 133 C Street, the organization owns a $4.4-million estate, the Cedars, just outside the District of Columbia in Arlington, Virginia, as well as a number of homes near the Cedars, some of which house young men and women who serve both as apprentices in the Fellowship and servants for the Cedars. The mansion is a political and religious meeting place for the rich and powerful as well as a hideaway for the likes of Michael Jackson and various ethically or maritally challenged members of Congress."

Michael Jackson? and what the heck is "maritally challenged"?

[QueenOfCalifornia]

185. Now!

That's what I'm talkin' about! This is what is worrisome to me and to a lot of other people - To assume that The Family - those prayer breakfast goers, are all just innocently sitting around and praying for peace and love - well then - you your assumption is based on a fairy tale.

(shhhh - Be Vewy, vewy quiet... don't tell the Hillary fan club that Hillary is a supporter of PNAC... )

[Hekate]

188. Hillary's a Methodist, very social-justice tradition, & carried her Bible on campaign in the '90s

Journalists noted her reading her "well-thumbed Bible" on the airplane.

Bill is a Southern Baptist (so is Jimmy Carter), and that sect wants to keep its women barefoot and pregnant. Is that really who these two men are?

None of this is news. Consider your sources.

By their works shall ye know them.

Hekate

[QueenOfCalifornia]

189. Once again... (Not another Hillary apologist...)

This is not about the Methodist part of her life -- this is about The Fellowship.

Jimmy Carter is not part of the elite prayer circle that Rick Santorum - Hillary - Joe Lieberman all join hands and pray. (I'd say that praying with the enemy is like sleeping with them - She votes along with Lieberman a lot too... But that's just silly rumor too, isn't it?)

Really - instead of bashing my "sources" - look at the reality-

Like I've said - If the person I was thinking of voting for were duplicitous, I would want to be informed. Better to change horses in the middle of the stream than drown on the one who is going to take you down with it.

BTW - Please - I love being lectured here about MY sources - It makes me feel so darned warm.

[Alamom]

194. Credible sources is what it's all about.....people lie and spin to push their

own candidate or agenda.

We must demand credibility for every article written about every candidate.



Anyone who expects to feel warm at this particular time may need to put on a coat, IMHO.

[knitter4democracy]

196. Calm down.

I know you're really upset about this, and yes, I've read about The Family and know what you're talking about. Clinton doesn't seem to have any connections with them other than the prayer breakfast, and honestly, that doesn't bother me. You know why? I went to an evangelical college during which we had required chapel three times a week. Everyone had to go to chapel--the few atheist students we had, the agnostics, the Catholics, the questioning, everyone. Sitting there with bowed head did not mean that they agree with anything the preacher was saying, and in fact, sitting there every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday just reinforced our beliefs and our problems with that church.

Just because she's in the room--there with many powerful senators with connections and votes she needs and wants--doesn't mean she agrees. She doesn't talk like an evangelical (while Joe Lieberman does, oddly enough), and she doesn't act like one.

Oh, and I'm no Clinton supporter (I'm voting for Kucinich), but I think you're trying to see patterns where none exist. Many senators go to that prayer breakfast and probably don't really know what The Family is and means to do. They see it as a way to connect with people in their states and appeal to the values voter crowd.