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It Seems That The Dems Really Did It This Time.......

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global1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 11:46 PM
Original message
It Seems That The Dems Really Did It This Time.......
I've been listening to talk radio (AAR) all day today. It appears that this FISA vote that wasn't stopped by the Dems has knocked the stuffing out of a great deal of their supporters. I know that we've had to endure a lot over the last 6 years with *Co and though things seem to always get worse and worse - there was always hope. This FISA vote, however, has caused so much frustration - that it appears that it has successfully killed - hope.

From the radio personalities to their listeners - it looks like - people are on the verge of giving up.

Am I reading too much into this? I feel the same frustration. I've called my Congressman's office (a Dem) that voted with the Repugs - and told them he has lost my future support and I'll work to get another Dem elected the next time he comes up for re-election. Even that didn't make me feel good.

I'm beginning to now think that either we lose the WH in '08 or that if a Dem is elected - he/she will just continue to march to the beat of the Corporations. Yeah - I believe that the top tiered Dem candidates are just saying what they need to get them elected.

I tend to line up behind Obama - but given the last week - I'm thinking that he's being targeted to be discredited so that he gets neutralized.

Can anybody out their give me some semblance of hope?
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. You will find your hope from within. As do all of us.
MKJ
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #1
23. There are only two things that can help a person at this time.
When hope no longer exists, denial or anger are the only two options. If you're not angry enough to fight (and I mean physically fight) then denial is a safe place to be, until you regroup and get strong enough to pick up the fight again.

I wish there was something we can do to send a message to the turncoat Dems. Something that jumps outside this silent forum. Like spray-painting "V"s all over this nation. We have forgotten, that graffitti is a sign of protest. We have forgotten because it is so readily associated with inner city black ghettos, but, maybe some of us are experiencing what drives them to pick up a can in the first place.
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redstateblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. Not me- sorry- I'm disgusted. I'm avoiding the news-. No excuses please
anyone that tries to rationalize this is full of it.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
3. This is my take on it
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-06-07 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. It's like they are throwing the fight
How much more unpopular can Bush and the republicans possibly get? These guys are out of breath, on the ropes, and yet democrats aren't going in for the knockout. Instead they are running back to their corner every time it looks like Republicans are going to throw a punch.

It's getting infuriating.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. The DLC at least is in on the fascist takeover, IMHO.
I have no idea how Bush pulled this off, but he bought or bribed or threatened them and now they are going along with the plan 100%, though they put up a pretense of having a spine occasionally.

Harry Reid appears to have shown his true mormon christofascist colors. Pelosi may just be too into the power and prestige and money. Feinstein is a rich fake who figured out that she could win in CA if she stayed liberal on social issues. Most the Dems seem not to have any idea what it means to BE A DEMOCRAT.

Hit the fascists where it hurts: cut their $ off. Don't spend your money at corporations - spend it with individuals and small businesses. Spend on local companies. Don't buy Chinese crap.

Damn. I'm 50 and I sound like a twenty-something antiglobalist/anarchist........
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. According to a German website, Clinton urged the European Parliament to rescind
laws protecting the privacy of Europeans' electronic communications including telephone calls in 1997. The DLC is not just in on it. The Bill Clinton Democrats led the way toward Europeans losing their privacy rights in this area. That is why it was so easy to get the Blue Dog DLC Democrats to support this illegal measure.

No one cares if they listen in or keep records of communications with terrorists, but we know that this surveillance and record keeping is much broader. We also know that it can easily be used as a political tool and that it is just one prong of a many pronged monster of fascist surveillance of people in many areas of the world.

I am so disgusted, I cannot believe myself how disgusted and disillusioned I am at this point.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Popularity Has Nothing Whatsoever to Do With It. This is About Power
When it comes to power, Bush** and Cheney have it all.
It is our party that is on the ropes.

If Bush** does not get his way on everything he will LIHOP/MIHOP and use his control of the media to blame the Democrats for it all.
A lot of people would die, and our party would be crucified by the Mighty Slime Machine.
Our leadership obviously has no defense against such a thing, so they have decided that surrender is the best option. That goes for next year too.
They'll get behind Hillary Clinton next year, she'll lose to the Ghoul, of course, and the Repiggies keep doing what they have been doing. They probably retake Congress too.

The alternative (if the Dems don't cooperate) being another Reichstag Fire and martial law.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
5. Perhaps that is what was intended
To kill hope
After all from the repugs position we need to be manipulated to the point that the 08 election is too close to call. And that means a whole bunch of disillusioned democrats that don't even bother to vote.
So my vote in the primaries will be for the lower tier of candidates, the ones that are most likely not in the game that is being run on us by the big business interest.
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caligirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
6. It is Hilary who is being targeted for discrediting. Haven't you heard
about the group of former intell officers who have been doing opposition research on Bill since he left office and they will release this after she gets the nomination if she gets it. they want her to win that nom.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. I've never heard of this
Though it wouldn't surprise me a bit, I'm wondering why I haven't seen this on the conspiracy sites. Do you have a link?
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caligirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
35. here is the article-the important info is near the end, Moldea talks about this stuff
Edited on Tue Aug-07-07 12:17 PM by caligirl

Noir Character/Nice Guy At Center Of D.C. Sex Scandal PDF Print E-mail
By JONATHAN TILOVE
Image
Bethel Aniaku created this collage of Dan Moldea's books for his birthday.
c.2007 Newhouse News Service

WASHINGTON — It's been a steamy summer in Washington.

Global warming? Maybe. But give some credit to the big balding guy in the dark threads sitting at his usual booth halfway back at Morty's Deli.

That's Dan E. Moldea, one of the premier investigative reporters of his generation. Books on Hoffa, on the killing of RFK, on the mob and pro football, on the mob and Ronald Reagan, on OJ, on Vince Foster.

Name doesn't ring a bell? Think Larry Flynt and Sen. David Vitter, R-La. It was Moldea, working for Flynt, who on July 6 found Vitter's number in the phone records of the so-called D.C. Madam, just as it was Moldea, working for Flynt, who amid the impeachment of Bill Clinton found a former mistress of Rep. Bob Livingston, R-La., aborting his rise to speaker of the House and, Moldea believes, saving the Clinton presidency.

"This is just the beginning; I view Vitter as a shot across the bow,'' says Moldea of his renewed collaboration with Flynt, precipitated, he says, by word of a new anti-Clinton "smear campaign'' in the works targeting Bill Clinton's post-presidential behavior. "If these guys want a showdown on the issue of morality, by God we're going to give it to them.''

Moldea, 57, is a cool customer, a noirish figure in a black and white world; the shadowy guy who knows where the bodies are buried (or not buried, as in the case of Hoffa, who he believes was "crushed and smelted''). But, over the course of a recent nearly five-hour interview at Morty's in upper Northwest Washington, the secret of Moldea's double life spills out.

"I got a reputation as a tough guy, but,'' and here his voice tumbles to a hush, "I really am a nice person. But I can't let that get around because people will f--- with me. That's what happens in this business.''

There it is. Dan Moldea, Larry Flynt's shamus of shame, is a sentimental sweetheart, a gentle soul, generous friend and notorious over-tipper. In a world of self-promoting bravado, he is self-deprecating to the last, while allowing, "I usually have good intentions.''

He won't allow a photograph to be taken of him, or provide a photograph, for this story. He's stayed off TV lately. He doesn't want to appear to be grabbing glory off other people's misery. "It may seem an ironic term for me to use, but I think it would be the epitome of bad taste.''

"Dan is one of the truly decent people in this world,'' says his lawyer, Roger Simmons, who represented Moldea in his quixotic libel suit against The New York Times in the early 1990s for a negative book review that misrepresented what he wrote.

"In some ways he's a tough guy, but in another way he's just a big teddy bear,'' says Deborah Jeane Palfrey, the D.C. Madam who has been indicted on federal racketeering charges, talking by telephone from her California home. Moldea and Palfrey are shopping a book proposal, and on July 13, Moldea threw a party at Morty's to introduce her to some of his journalist pals.

Now, when Palfrey thinks of Moldea, "I think of matzo ball soup.''

"He has this kind of noble grandeur that is gone from the world,'' says Laurence Leamer, a close friend who has written books on the Kennedys and on Arnold Schwarzenegger.

But does Larry Flynt really merit a knight-errant?

"Larry Flynt's a total sleazebag,'' says Leamer, but he maintains Moldea's purpose is pure.

Moldea, who says he has never seen Flynt's Hustler magazine, knows he will always be guilty by association. But he thinks Flynt has been on the side of the angels in his campaign to expose the sexual hypocrites of the Republican right.

"I'd sell apples on a street corner to go after these guys,'' says Moldea. "That's the thing, I've started to view right-wing Republicans as the new organized crime.''

"Dan reminds me of Gary Cooper in 'High Noon' — the quiet, tough-as-nails professional who believes he should uphold the honor and law of the badge he swore to wear,'' says James Grady, author of the book on which the film "Three Days of the Condor'' was based, who has known Moldea since Grady worked as an investigator for columnist Jack Anderson. "For Dan, the badge is investigative reporting, muckraking at its best, and the oath is the idea that if you dig up the truth, people in a democracy will care and good things can happen.''

Grady believes that next to Seymour Hersh, Moldea is the top investigative reporter of his time. "He should be one of those name-brand journalists, but he's not very comfortable in that role.''

Not everyone is a fan.

"He is to journalistic integrity what Bill Clinton is to marital fidelity,'' says Mark R. Levin, president of the conservative Landmark Legal Foundation (Landmark has nominated Rush Limbaugh for the Nobel Peace Prize). In 1999 Landmark filed a complaint with the Justice Department accusing Flynt and Moldea of trying to obstruct the Clinton impeachment inquiry.

But Moldea has a reputation as a scrupulous reporter. He has never been sued for any of his books. He worked years on a book based on his belief that there was a conspiracy to kill Robert F. Kennedy, but reversed course when he became convinced that Sirhan Sirhan acted alone. With Flynt, he says, "We can't make any mistakes.''

There is a dash of Rodney Dangerfield in Moldea's demeanor.

"You take away your salary. Take away your expense account. Take away your health care, pension, paid vacation. Take away all the office supplies and office space, and you've got me,'' he says.

Never married, he has been going out with the same woman for nearly 20 years, though they don't live together. "She doesn't like me much.''

No children. "I don't think I would have been a very good father.''

And the future? "I have this fear I'm going to end up with a shopping bag in Dupont Circle, screaming at myself.''

Moldea was born in Akron, Ohio. His religion is Eastern Orthodox; his ancestry Romanian. He has always been a liberal, but one with a weakness for cops and wiretaps. At the left-wing Institute for Policy Studies in Washington, where he has been affiliated over the years, "they called me the resident thug.''

But, he says, what really radicalized him was when Regnery, a conservative publisher, asked him in 1997 to write a book about the death of Vince Foster. Foster, Bill Clinton's childhood friend and deputy White House counsel, was found dead in Fort Marcy Park just outside Washington in 1993, an apparent suicide. Many in the conservative media saw foul play, but Moldea found "instead of the Clintons being involved in some grand conspiracy to either murder Vince Foster or cover up the circumstances of his death, that in fact it was a conspiracy among certain right-wing journalists to make it look that way.''

The experience primed Moldea to accept Flynt's invitation in the fall of 1998 to help him expose the sexual affairs of the anti-Clinton posse.

The payoff came when Livingston announced, as the House was voting to impeach Clinton, that he would not stand for speaker. Moldea trembled. "I thought we had destroyed the country.'' But he came to believe they had saved the Clinton presidency. "When we got Bob Livingston, I think we derailed the train to remove Clinton from office.''


********
A few months ago, Moldea says, he learned from an "impeccable'' source that "an unnamed group of former intelligence officers have done an opposition research campaign against Bill Clinton, which is tantamount to a smear campaign, which concentrates on his activities since he left the White House. This is coming out, and that's when I said, 'We've got to get back to work.'''

"Who knows when they are going to pull the trigger on this, but we're going to unleash hell when that happens,'' he says.
*********


"I don't know if Hillary is Larry's candidate, but she's certainly mine,'' says Moldea, though he knows that the Clintons, as in the past, will want nothing to do with him or Flynt.

Meanwhile, Palfrey thinks she and Moldea are the answer to each other's prayers. "This is not a Mayflower Madam book, not a Heidi Fleiss book. This is a very serious book about corruption and politics,'' she says. "I want him to dig, dig, dig and find out what's really going on.''

And when Moldea does, she says, "the man is going to be legend,'' finding a mass audience at last.

How so? The D.C. Madam explains: "I'm juicier than Jimmy Hoffa.''


http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:XwW5KOdP-VwJ:www.newhouse.com/noir-character-nice-guy-at-center-of-d.c.-sex-scandal-2.html+moldea+and+dc+madam&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=12&gl=us
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. It would not surprise me. And it would be a cakewalk to do that.
Hillary is being set up as the Democratic candidate by the right-wing media in great part because she will be so easy to tear down.

Edwards is the candidate that the right-wing media is really afraid of. Edwards is our best bet. He can win.
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #15
28. I agree--saw evidence this morning on MSNBC
They had a RW talk show host on the phone--Monica Crowly I think was her name? First she smeared Obama: "what experience has he got? All he did in the Illinois state legislature was issue dog licenses!", and in the next breath smeared Edwards: "...as for the Metrosexual..." Then I gagged and switched channels. But no smears against Hillary.

In the interest of correcting the facts on Obama, a state legislator is no slouch and he did address some important policies in Illinois. And he was also a Constitutional law professor for ten years. The smear against Edwards is simply ridiculous and Coulter-esque.

I am not knocking MSNBC, though, which I perceive is slowly marching to the left. But that wingnut was given time and she did her "job".
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
9. There AIN'T NO HOPE!!!!
Edited on Tue Aug-07-07 12:29 AM by EST
There is no hope now, there will be no hope and there never has been any hope. Hope is a reaction to real facts, real experiences and you are not in control of those circumstances. All you have as a small window to input something to influence the way things turn out and a chance to evaluate just how miserable you're willing to let yourself be, limiting your actions.

Forget about hope; it's overrated.

Look, if, Power Forbid, your house was on fire and there you were, standing in the back yard, realizing that your kid was inside and you had left your house key on the counter... the deadbolt locks on closure, what next?
Now, I don't know about you--yes I do know about you!
Just like me, you would not waste a damn second falling into despair or giving up hope or any of that bullshit.
You'd DO something! You'd realize you did have your car keys in your pocket and you'd drive your car over the corner of that house. Or you'd discover a little extra strength and pull the mailbox out of the ground and use it to go through a window.

The point is, you would do something, leaving behind all the bullshit considerations about how depressing it all is, or whatever.
Do something!
If you're doing something, do more!
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
11. I missed AAR today -- any suggestions on what to look for in the podcasts?
I'm not going to have enough time to review the whole day. Any highlights would be most appreciated.
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snowbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
12. ~~~ YES, global1 ... there is hope! ~~~

It may seem that way right now.

But you'll see..

~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~

As far as the presidential election, some candidates may be unfairly targeted right now - but the MSM is literally foaming at the mouth at the thought of a HRC v. whoever General election.

They'll be the first to openly admit... They LOVE to build up the candidate who will be the most fun to tear down later. And they count on us, the general public, to soak in their polls and predictions like a thirsty sponge throughout the ride.

There IS hope though. Both with the Democratic Congress as well as the '08 presidential race.

For one thing, the MSM loves to mention the low approval rating of Congress ... yet they never let on to one important detail:

How was that question was posed??. .....It makes a HUGE difference!

~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~


The American public may be responding to a telephone poll about how unhappy they are with Congress, but are they being asked something like this?

1) Would you rather go back to the 109th Congress and the way things were?

-or-

2) Would you prefer to have enough Democrats to have a veto-proof majority?

I'll bet anything you'd get far more respondents answering yes to #2 -- but we'll never know how they posed that question.


~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~

And as far as the presidential election ~~~ don't listen to the MSM polls, don't let the continual candidate bashing here at DU get you down, and most importantly, no one ---- and I mean NO ONE ---- knows who our nominee will be.

How many threads do we see on here saying something like "Face it guys, XYZ is going to win it all"

Pah-------leese. If they really thought that way, you think they'd spend every waking hour on here trying to pump up their candidate! Hell no!

~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~

There is hope because..

~ Americans want change.

~ Congress cannot produce the change Americans want until they have a Veto-proof majority.

~ If you look at the individuals elected to Congress in '06, you'll notice that the public isn't screaming buyer's remorse.. but the dismal statements you hear about them are found on political blogs or on sarcastically asked questions from someone like Jack Cafferty.

~ Democrats don't vote for who the MSM insists is "unbeatable" --and being the frontrunner at this time in the primary is not where you want to be positioned.

~ It will turn out far better than any DU thread is predicting in the dog days of August!

~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~

There IS hope!!!
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OnionPatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #12
25. I have one sliver of hope
It is the fact that usually, only the politically active vote in the primaries. If they are polling the general public, perhaps people are just saying HRC because it's name recognition. The more politically active are usually not the DLC types. Maybe the actual election will turn out differently. (My hope dies with a HRC nomination, which means a pug in the whitehouse in '08, JMHO.)
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Midwestern Democrat Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
14. I'm not so negative.
Let's face it - we have slim majorities in both houses of congress, and the U.S. has just gone through a 12 year period that was the most right wing politically since before the Great Depression. As recently as 2005, serious political analysts were talking about how the Republicans would likely enjoy a long-enduring majority (a generation or so) and analyzing their winning formula. I can't blame the Democrats for punting on this one - Bush and the media would have massacred us during the entire August recess if we hadn't have passed this bill. It's probably wise for us to take this issue out of the headlines and work on battles we can win - hopefully, we'll have a Democratic president and larger congressional majorities in 2009, so we won't have to deal with this kind of shit for much longer.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Bush** and His Media Will Massacacre Us If We Do Anything Except Bend Over
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global1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. Instead - We The Dems - Are Eating Our Own By Complaining How The Dems Caved.......
on this FISA vote.

You indicated that: "Bush and the media would have massacred us during the entire August recess if we hadn't have passed this bill. It's probably wise for us to take this issue out of the headlines......"

If you listen to MSM and AAR - both the Righties and the Lefties are saying that the Dems caved.

So instead of having Bush and the media massacring us during the entire August recess for not having passed this FISA bill - we have the DEMS and the media massacring ourselves for having passed this bill.

It made the headlines anyway and the message is that the Dems are weak and the Repugs are strong.

It was a win-win for *Co. I got to hand it to KKKarl - he knows how to have it both ways.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #20
36. so. we are not to complain about this vote, then?
or if we do, we're working for Rove?

ok, lets look at this logically.
This vote puts absolute power into the hands of Gonzales to continue illegally (sorry, check that -- NOW legally), giving Bush EXACTLY WHAT HE DEMANDED.

but if we don't like it, WE"RE the ones working for bush?

c'mon now, think about it, does that make any sense?
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global1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Look I Was Reacting To Post #14 That Said If The Dems Didn't Vote.....
for this the Repugs would have massacred us though out this August recess.

So that was the Dems excuse for voting for this - they didn't want to take the heat if something would happen during the recess. So instead of the Repugs dumping on the Dems - us - the actual Dem supporters are dumping on the Dems for caving.

Yes - we can complain about this vote - but all I'm saying is consider the consequences. What looks worse - the Repugs dumping on the Dems. We can take that. We can justify that as politics can't we.

But now that we Dem supporters are dumping on the Dems - it makes the Dems in my opinion look - worse.

I don't agree with putting absolute power into the hands of Gonzo and *Co. If I were in Congress - I would have done everything to prevent this vote from happening. I would have either killed it or molded it into something a lot less than what *Co wanted so as not to hand them more power or another excuse to shred the Constitution - and let the chips fall where they may.

This fear-mongering we're hearing that caused the Dems to cave is moot. Anything that could happen during this August recess - was planned well enough in advance of this vote. If *CO was already listening illegally - they would have picked this up and twarted any intended attack. Isn't that what they tell us that terrorists plan well enough in advance. If an actual attack does happen during this recess - it happens strictly because of the ineptness of *Co or ignoring the warning like they did with the Aug PDB before 9/11.

What it looks like that is happening is pin the blame on the 'donkey'. Everybody is looking for an excuse. Both *Co and the Repugs and the Dems.

The Dems don't want to be blamed because they didn't give the pResident what he wanted. Now if something does happen - the Dems can say - well we gave the pResident what he wanted and he still didn't prevent an attack.

This is just a big game going on - and the losers are the American people and our Constitution.






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Cobalt-60 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
17. We need to take down the Cons FIRST
Using the handy example of the Twentieth century's Second World War, the allies decided to eliminate the most dangerous member of the Axis first: Germany.
The Cons are the most dangerous part of the bought off politicians arrayed against them.
If we can Lieberman some turncoats in the primaries, that's fine. But the main force of our blows must fall against the Cons.
The White House must be cleared.
The Senate needs to be secured.
And the House of Representatives needs to be reinforced.
Corporations can often get their way under Democratic Administrations too.
But history indicates the general health of the nation as well as the safety and prosperity of the greater masses of her people Suffers under Cons and flourishes under Democrats, even when they are paid off.
We can clean out the more obvious corporate creatures as we go.
But no 'Con, especially any further Shrubs, can ever again be allowed to hold the White House.
This last on has shown us just what they're really made of.
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radfringe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 04:42 AM
Response to Original message
18. Hope? I hear many of the democrats will be having back surgery
during the august recess

they will have hinges installed to make folding even easier. Procedure is expected to be rather quick as the doctors do not have to remove a spine first
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 05:54 AM
Response to Original message
19. I love wallowing in despair as much as anyone, but...
Here's the other side of the story:
"1. Despite the amount of false propaganda spread by the Republican Party, our
nation does in fact have dangerous enemies. The terrorist threat is very real,
though it is also very different from the way the Republicans, and in particular
the administration of George W. Bush, have described it.
2. FISA has needed an overhaul for many years now. Be thankful that it will be
Democrats that will rewrite this bill instead of the Republicans. If Republicans
rewrote this bill most Americans would end up being implanted with microchips
to monitor their private thoughts.
3. FISA is broken and the George W. Bush broke it. Because Bush and his
cronies pushed the exisiting law too far, they ended up losing a court case and
severely damaged our ability to obtain intelligence. This was the result of
sloppiness and a total disregard for the rule of law on the part of the
Republicans.
4. It will take time to rewrite FISA, and in the meantime we needed some kind
of temporary legislation to buy time for Congress to work on a new version of
FISA. The bills Jim Webb voted for provide for this temporary bridge.
5. We may need another temporary extension of FISA, lasting until the end of
the Bush administration. When this law is rewritten it needs to be rewritten by
Democratic-dominated Congress and signed off on by a Democratic President.
Any rewrite of this law under the current administration would bear the unholy
fingerprints of Bush, Cheney and Gonzales--and in consequence would be
deeply flawed from its outset."
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/5/124531/4040
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. You posted that CRAP on another thread and it still is CRAP...
Edited on Tue Aug-07-07 08:11 AM by TankLV
But go ahead - believe your fair tale - that's EXACTLY what the GOOD GERMANS kept telling themselves and look where that ended up...

Sorry - I know better - WE know better...

On edit: I should have know - it's MORE TEXAS crap...
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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. Sigh.....
Was the "Texas crap" part really necessary? Some of us, for whatever reason, don't currently have any choice about living here. And lots of us here don't like Bu$h any more than people in other states.
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. Oh, please, is this BS going to keep popping up here? Sen. Webb's threatening us now.
Be scared, we have dangerous enemies, be afraid, blah, blah.

There are plenty of LAW ENFORCEMENT and JUDICIAL tools available to combat criminals here or abroad, congressional approval for warrentless wiretapping not being among them.

MKJ
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FreepFryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 07:50 AM
Response to Original message
21. When you can't fight, you run. When you can't run, you crawl. When you can't crawl...
...you find someone to carry you.

Rest up, read your Thomas Jefferson, Alexis De Tocqueville, Henry Thoreau and (my recent interest) Victor Klemperer, and when you're ready, rise up and fight on.

We all deserve to enjoy (and need to defend) the guarantees within the Bill of Rights - and corporate interests cannot overcome the human spirit forever.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
24. This is anecdotal, but it happened this morning at the grocery store...
Edited on Tue Aug-07-07 08:14 AM by Totally Committed
I like to go early in the summer before the heat of the day really gets going, so that means I'm often there when all "the guys" are out stocking shelves and putting out produce. Usually the conversation is about baseball or wrestling :eyes: or cars, but never about anything of substance.

This morning, the subject was about the FISA vote (I swear!) and how the "f*cking* Democrats are just like the "f*cking" Republicans and how "we" (we!) "got screwed" and "now, who the f*ck do we vote for? There was a lot of gesturing and swearing back and forth. One of them said he didn't think it mattered any more who the President was because they were all "gangsters" and "bought", so basically we're all "f*cked". There was one guy trying to argue for the Bushies, but he was basically being told off for not being "over there fighting Bush's f*cking war".

Honestly. That was the conversation going on. Back and forth, all age groups. I know it's anecdotal, but I swear it's true. I never heard such things being taked about from aisle to aisle, the debates and the rants were constant... and NOT very good for the Republicans OR us.

(for context only) I live in Massachusetts, btw, and in a community that is pretty Liberal, politically, but surrounded by a lot of not-so-liberal towns.

So, hope? I dunno. The people are A N G R Y and this is not just the ones that are the usually "informed" ones (like those of us at our computers a lot), but the everyday guys out there stocking shelves and working trades. I was astounded.

TC

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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. but in fairness, only a third of the Dem Senators turned tail.
I hope they realize that. But those who chickened out made all of them look bad. They are not one solid voting block, unfortunately.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. These are guys you would never think would even pay attention
to politics. I don't know what they "knew", but only that they were really PISSED OFF. And, like I said, it wasn't just one group of them -- every aisle and department seemed to be buzzing with the same subject and the same amount of anger. It was ODD.

TC


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global1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
38. So The Upshot Of This Is That The 'People' Can't Trust The Repugs Or The Dems.....
so they will vote Independent come '08. And guess what KKKarl likes that. Why? Because a big move to an Independent vote gives the Repugs a chance to retain power.
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
31. Impeachment Remains The Only Hope -- For Nation and Dem Party
And there's plenty of reason for hope that we can make the Impeachophobes "see the wisdom" of saving the nation and themselves.

The more we make them repeat their False Rationalization Memes -- out loud and in person, the worse they feel about being the regime's firewall.

Their "fear of backlash" delusion took a hit this week when we found out from David Brooks that Republicans Hate Bush (video).

And just today, they are being given an object lesson in http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=a_.jZ421z8vg&refer=uk">How Not To Commit War Crimes Oneself when taking over government power from war criminals.
U.K. Asks U.S. to Release Five From Guantanamo Bay
By Robert Hutton

Aug. 7 (Bloomberg) -- Britain asked the U.S. to release five U.K. residents detained at the Guantanamo Bay prison camp in Cuba, a shift in strategy on terrorism by Prime Minister Gordon Brown.

No wonder Tony Blair had to pre-vacation, then be rushed into the "protected post" of UN Futility Master without a single day of exposure. But those golden parachutes are only available to the few.

A few more injections of "a real sense of reality" could cause impeachment to drop like a ripe fruit.

But hope won't get us there. Action will. Keep fighting.

--
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gasperc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
32. it should reinvigorate our progressive movement
to work harder to dislodge the dozens of conservative democratic lawmakers that are not serving thier constituents, Pelosi and the progressive caucus at all
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
33. The Cabal pointed at the bridge collapse, and told our guys
(in secret) that it was more than an accident. I wouldn't put anything past this crew in the White House.

Thats just a thought.

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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
34. In losing hope
I have gained clarity.

I'm telling everyone I know about what this FISA thing means to EVERYONE.

I'm glad to hear that the usually politically inactive are PISSED about this.

As I've posted recently, I have no hope now. All we have is ourselves and each other. The Dems in Congress are either insufficient or unwilling to protect us.

We need HUGE reforms, or a new constitutional convention. Our Gov't needs to be put on a leash or put down before it bites us again.

There is no hope...but so what?! I think we're more than up to the task of saving ourselves! I'm done ceding my power to these people! If they won't use it the way I want them to, I'll do it myself!!!
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