Folks, I need help with understanding something. How did the repubs &

[acmavm]

the neos steal the 2000 election so easily? Because the dems were in charge during the pre-election time. Or weren't they? Or did they help with the election theft?

I could not have happened without someone knowing something on our side, could it? Or did they just ignore the corruption. Because the bush** campaign was corrupt. They took a nasty, crooked, cowardly buffoon and dressed him up and foisted him on the American public. And people knew what he was. I never figured he had a prayer of winning. So how did he?

[billyoc]

1. There are only a couple of strategic chokepoints that you have to manipulate.

Florida and Ohio, maybe Pennsylvania. That's only 2 or 3 Secy's of State that you have to get to.

[Warpy]

3. ...and they certainly got to all of them

Plus, the Democrats in power, the few left, were all in that hazy never never land of "it can't happen here."

Sadly, some of them are still there.

[CitizenLeft]

7. thank goodness we can scratch Ohio off that list now...

We're blue now, so that can't happen in '08. But it sure as hell happened in 2004. And yeah, probably in 2000 too, but that was never looked into because Florida trumped them all. We'll never know what happened in Ohio in 2000 or how close it may have been.

[CitizenLeft]

2. the two houses had nothing to do with the election itself...

...though the House was controlled by the Republicans.

It happened because the Florida vote was so close, it required a recount. The governor of Florida was Jeb Bush. He controlled the Secretary of State (Kathering Harris), who oversees the election. And she was a Bush loyalist. So they decided which rules and laws should be followed and adhered to, and which ones could be ignored, and they made up new ones as they went along to their benefit.

When that didn't entirely work, Bush went to court, eventually to the Florida Supreme Court which ruled to ALLOW the recount. But then they pulled out their trump card - the US Supreme Court, which had Bush I-appointed Clarence Thomas and extremist Scalia leading the way to a 5-4 decision to stop the vote-counting.

That's it in a nutshell, minus all the details like caging, voter suppression, throwing out ballots, and the Tom Delay staffers and Young Republicans who banged on doors in Florida and scared the ballot-counters to death and stopped the counting, etc.

Forgot to add this: no, no Democrats had anything at all to do with the stealing of the election, unless you include Lieberman, Gore's VP, who refused to have anything to do with the recount. He showed his true colors at that moment.

[glitch]

5. They also needed a complicit media to blare their approval nonstop, forever. nt

[CitizenLeft]

6. yes they did.

I watched it all almost non-stop that month, and it was freaking APPALLING.

[acmavm]

18. Okay, do you remember the picture of bush** and cheney and rumsfeld

and powel and I can't remember who else taken from the outside of the oval office BEFORE the election was decided by the SCOTUS? I do. I think about it all the time. They moved in because they new the fix was in. I have always believed that the silence surrounding that action was tantamount to treason. The dems WATCHED and kept silent as a bloodless coup took place and the entire country watched democracy die a silent death. It was over before the SCOTUS ruled.

[CitizenLeft]

19. so you have a pre-conceived idea in your head...

...that the entire Democratic party wanted Bush and the Republicans to occupy the White House, that there was some mass conspiracy that the Dems rolled over and agreed to.

Alrighty then. Apparently nothing short of dynamite will get that idea out of your head, so why bother asking the question?

[acmavm]

23. Listen here Sigmund, you have no idea what's in my head so forget the

cheap and cheesey psychoanalysis.

[CitizenLeft]

26. You're right.

There's nothing in your head.

Done with you.

[acmavm]

28. Thank you. I hate people who spew empty rhetoric and ridiculous

crap and expect everyone to accept it as gospel.

[MonkeyFunk]

37. I think you're misremembering..

Bush didn't move in while Clinton was still President.

[acmavm]

9. So, the silence of the dems during the 'recount' doesn't strike you as being

weird or complicit? And why didn't they help Gore fight for his Presidency?

[CitizenLeft]

15. who said they were silent?

I didn't say that. Some of them went down to Florida, others tried to get air-time and got ignored or just second-long sound bites. The media definitely took sides on this, and the Dems were at their mercy. Most of them were probably shell-shocked and couldn't believe what was happening, but some did stand up. They got nowhere.

Following the SCOTUS decision, members of the House tried to do what Barbara Boxer and Stephanie Tubbs-Jones did in 2004, but there was no Senator who would sign with them - Gore himself personally ASKED the Senators not to pursue it because he thought, for the good of the country, it needed to stop there. I'm sure he regrets that now.

[theoldman]

4. Ralph Nader took away many Democrat votes.

Clinton would not be president if Ross Perot had not taken away votes from Bush.

[iamjoy]

10. I Disagree About Perot

I think Perot "took" a lot of votes away from Clinton, too. Comparing the Perot factor in 1992 with the Nader factor in 2000 is apples and oranges (pardon the cliche).

In 1992 there were a lot of people who wanted change, these people were not going to vote for Bush, no matter what. However, Clinton hadn't closed the deal. They may have been Goldwater Republicans (more socially libral/fiscally conservative), people ticked off at #41 for breaking his "read my lips..." or others who didn't like HW, but couldn't get past what they saw as Clinton's moral failings.

On the other hand, can you imagine that in 2000, there was anyone leaning towards Dubya, but who decided to vote for Nader? Can you even hypothesize as to the mindset of such a voter?

[OHdem10]

14. It has been proven, Perot took mostly GOP votes.

This is the reason why the GOP hate Clinton. They never believed
he won the election. This is what drove all the anger all the
time during Clinton Presidency. He did not get 50% of the votes.

I supported Pres. Clinton, but the reality is as it is.

This is why--no matter who wins. I hope they win with a margin
wide enough that the other side cannot be in anger mode continuously.

[iamjoy]

36. Still A Difference, And Majority Won't Matter

I do believe Perot still "took" more Democratic votes than Nader "took" Gore votes, even if more Bush voters than Clinton voters went to Perot.

Anyway, even if our candidate wins a majority in 2008, there will still be anger from the GOP, just like there is still anger over Dubya's 2004 victory, decisive as many claim it to be.

[MonkeyFunk]

38. Where's this proof?

The analyses I've seen say Perot's effect was a wash.

[acmavm]

8. Okay, move to 2004. How come the rigged voting machines from Diebold

and ES&S were so accepted as a way to tally the votes? Did no one think about hackers, rigging the machines, preprogrammed chips?

I'm just trying to figure out why we're where we are at today.

[CitizenLeft]

12. take what happened in Florida in 2000...

...and cut-and-paste in Ohio. Caging, voter suppression, vote-flipping, etc., all there. Ken Blackwell was the Katherine Harris stand-in. Boom. There ya go. Minus the court-rulings, of course. The difference was that John Kerry did not fight the results like Gore did. He's not been forgiven for that by many even now. And I can't blame them.

[acmavm]

13. Again I will ask where was the righteous indignation at the theft of the

election. Where was the outrage?

Yeah, I know. Kerry weaseled. I am definitely one of those who have never ever gotten over that. But there was more at stake than Kerry and the presidency. At stake was the entire political system that made this country a political beacon to the world. And there was no collective outrage by anyone. Except us. Just people like us.

Where was the outrage? Where is it now?

edit: fricking punctuation

[CitizenLeft]

17. excuse me...

I WAS FUCKING OUTRAGED. And so were most people on the left. I took part in the Ohio recount, my House representative, Stephanie Tubbs-Jones, stood up with Barbara Boxer and forced a debate on the House floor to stop the confirmation of the election. What are you talking about? They DID fight it. HOuse members made great speeches on the floor during that debate, but again, they didn't have the votes because the House was Republican-controlled.

Why don't you know this already? Why does this have to be explained? I see on your profile that you were HERE in 2004. How could you have missed that?

[acmavm]

21. I did not miss a damn thing. Don't get snippy with me. WE HAVE A SHIT

LOAD OF ASSHOLES IN WASHINGTON RIGHT NOW THAT THINK 'SPEECHES' ARE GONNA TURN THE TRICK. And you see how well its working.

Why no fucking lawsuits? (And don't lecture me about Kerry's half-ass attempt. That was worthless.) Why no action like the damn Iraqis are doing? Walking out? Stalling every piece of legislation? USING THE DAMN FILLIBUSTER?

Do not lecture me on how hard the dems fought because you are damn right, I do know what the hell went on. I was here. I was paying attention. And there wasn't any goddamn opposition to what happened. They just made a few 'speeches' and let it go. And hung us out to dry in the meantime.

Now go and give a snotty lecture to someone who's stupid enough to think you know what you're talking about.

[CitizenLeft]

24. "They just made a few 'speeches' and let it go."

Yes, I've already got it, facts don't mean shit to you. All this can be found all over the net, but you want somebody to confirm your narrow conspiratorial view.

if you don't want to be lectured, then don't ask stupid questions.

Go do your own fucking homework.

[acmavm]

27. Take a look around you slick. This mess is a direct result of what happened

in 2000. No other party of any government on this planet would go so meekly and quietly to their own destruction.

Your blind obedience to the partly line makes you a good little dem, but a totally worthless American. Don't question what went wrong. It's apparent from your posts that you don't have the intellect.

[razzleberry]

11. Gore's lawyers didn't help any

they asked for things that
don't make sense

[glitch]

20. They asked for the things that were required under Florida election law.

If you want to look for nonsense look there.

[razzleberry]

22. combining partial tallies counted in different months?

within the same county.
is in the Florida election code?
don't think so

[PATRICK]

16. The party also wanted to lose

in a way. Disappointed that Gore with the Clinton impeachment baggage might drag them down, win or lose, the number of careers other than the Presidency, then riled even more along these lines when Gore moved populist as well... I think fear, opportunity under a GOP, and disdain for both sides of Gore, and the usual surrender, bi-partisan glee, affirmation of the DLC, safety for the Clinton legacy was the usual mix we have come to know and love.

Today, despite the exposure of the GOP, the consequences, the vacuous destructive nature of DLC hopes, the one sidedness of the media, this attitude persists and wants vindication in the election of a certain candidate. All these years, evidence to the contrary they feel this is the moment planned for and denied. Their moment. Yet if they lose don't ever count on this weasel factor bowing away gracefully from rotted judgment and demeaned power. The other Dems too just never get to the message of the basics, don't understand self-defense is just not a showcase of unprincipled compromise skills and lucrative opportunities for a corporate political bent.

There are uninformed suckers, informed fools, sly ones outsmarting themselves while we die and this party will have a long way to go besides just winning the presidency.

Janet Reno backed off protecting the cheated black votes in an argument that turned every which way against good and just people. To protect us. As a result she could not even protect herself from her own Florida primary fraud. Compassionate, fearful, "wise" at the wrong times makes for a very dismaying, failed foolishness.

And no fool, especially one in a high place, will publicly admit their mistake and will maintain composure with studied grace to make sure the next idiot diving into the frozen lake doesn't know how cold it is. And will go on the MSM that crucified them to joke about the nails and maintain their public celebrity. Or they plain just never get it ever.

[opihimoimoi]

25. The Republican Party HELPED BIG TIME to STEAL the election..

from small time players to the big boys...Remem Katherine Harris? She and cohorts/staff removed many names from voter lists for silly reasons/etc/etc...and thats only her..

Tom Delays Peeps were bussed down(from DC) to help stop the recount is another example...it was a war on...win at ALL COSTS..even if ya have to LIE CHEAT STEAL...

Pubs are Gluttonous Ole Perverts

[acmavm]

29. Yes they did. But where was the democratic party at the time? What the

hell were they doing that all this shit went on and nobody noticed? And afterward no one cared enough to call them on their shit. Except as one whiney arrogant snot posted, there were a few 'speeches', but after that kaput, that was it.

Didn't the death of our democracy deserve more than a few 'speeches'? Hell, for that matter, we as a party should have taken to the streets to try to preserve what had worked so well, what made American a model for other nations, for 200 plus years. But we had no leaders. We had no direction. We had NOTHING.

And we have nothing now.

[CitizenLeft]

31. ROTFL

"Whiney arrogant snot" here with some really http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_U.S._presidential_election_controversy_and_irregularities">annoying facts. We whiney arrogant snots are funny like that. :)

They DID go to court. Moss vs. Bush. Ever heard of it? It was a lawsuit that failed because the Bush-appointed Ohio Supreme Court judge who sided with him dismissed the case.

Have fun reading! :hi:

[acmavm]

33. This is not new to me. Only someone as pitifully arrogant as you seem

to be would think it is.

If you go through every action in that article you'll notice that no matter what some dems may have tried, they NEVER HAD THE SUPPORT OF THE PARTY BEHIND THEM. The repubs won because everytime someone filed a lawsuit, made a legitimate complaint, whatever, the minute they met resistance, they dropped it. Refused to refile, to make waves, to fight.

And Moss v. Bush. What a joke

<snip>
Within this period a civil case citing numerous statistical anomalies in Ohio's official canvass report alleged that election irregularities had altered the outcome of the election. The case, Moss v. Bush, was initially filed on December 13, 2004 in Ohio Supreme Court but was dismissed without prejudice because of a legally incorrect challenge. It was refiled and accepted. The Plaintiffs requested an expedited trial in order to meet the deadline of January 6 when Ohio's electoral votes were to be congressionally certified. The presiding judge, Ohio Supreme Court Chief Justice Thomas Moyer, denied that request. On January 6, 2005, congress certified Ohio's electoral votes. The Plaintiffs then requested that the case be withdrawn since the certification rendered the case moot. The judge accepted the request.

<snip>

Anyone who didn't see actions under RICO statutes in that mess is a fool. In fact, this whole administration is nothing more than an organized criminal conspiracy. And they've violated the law practically every day under circumstances that would make an organized crime don proud. And they are doing it with the complicity of the democrats in the house and senate. Handing them the 2000 election taught this administration a big lesson. And they learned it well.

I thought you were done. I see you're a man of your word <snicker>. Now go away.

[CitizenLeft]

34. I know, LOL. I think I just find the high level of your density...

...fascinating. In a sort of masochistic way.

[Bitwit1234]

30. It happened in FLORIDA.....AND just who was in charge there

Jed Bush and Katherine Harris who stopped the counting. I am so glad that the republicans dumped her I don't know what to do. Just another example of laying down for the republicans and them trampling you.

[acmavm]

32. You just hit on the main point of this post. Why did this happen...

<snip>

Just another example of laying down for the republicans and them trampling you.

<snip>

While they were walking all over the dems in Florida, they were sticking a knife in the back of democracy. There wasn't then, there isn't now, and there never will be a good reason for allowing our elections to be stolen.

[annabanana]

35. some was just being blindsided. . .

To take an axe to the very root of the country's tree would have been unthinkable for the WW11 generation...