Vince Foster - get ready

[jillan]

Was out to dinner and talking with a repub (that I am working on).
He was telling me the rw is ready for Hillary and Vince Foster is going to be their first attack.

I remember the rumor....Hillary was involved with him, then he was later killed... so they say.

It was proven that it was suicide.



Might not be a bad idea to cut thru the bs NOW, just incase she is our nominee.

[aquart]

1. Thank you for your concern.

We're all real worried about it. Jeez the jerks never leave and the lies never die.

[jillan]

2. If it is what the rw spin machine is starting already -

then we need to be ready. Not all people at DU may have known what went on in the 90s.

Better to educate now, instead of being caught off guard later.

[Chipper Chat]

7. Hannity brings up Ted Kennedy & Chappaquiddick

every chance he gets. Anything to bash democrats.
Next thing you know Sean-baby will refresh our memory about Boss Tweed!

[WCGreen]

11. Boss Tweed might have been corupt as hell...

But he got more done for the working poor in NYC to outshine all that bastards that hated him...

[Chipper Chat]

18. Hannity would ignore that part.

On second thought I doubt he knows who Boss Tweed was.

[Norquist Nemesis]

3. The "scoop" is that you're never going to convince your repub friend

anything other than what he already believes.

[jillan]

4. You might be right - but it also has its advantages to know what

they are talking about. You know - have someone tell you what limpo talks about so you never have to listen.

And it makes for some unbelievable debates.

[Heidi]

5. I suggest we prepare ourselves by having a :tinfoilhat: ready

for each rightwing person who raises the issue, which has no other purpose than to smear Hillary Clinton for a matter that already has been investigated by the US Park Police, DOJ, FBI, Congress, and Independent Counsels Robert B. Fiske and Kenneth Starr, all of whom concluded that Foster committed suicide.

[jillan]

6. Ok - fine - Go ahead live in your little fantasy world that the rw talking heads

are not going to try to stop our candidates.

We can all pretend that these things will never be mentioned again.

[Heidi]

8. Why should we give their nutty talk any credence whatsoever?

If you want an answer to give them if they bring up this issue, here ya go: "This matter has been thoroughly investigated by the US Park Police, DOJ, the FBI, Congress, and Independent Counsels Robert B. Fiske and Kenneth Starr. Foster killed himself. It happened 14 years ago. If this were such an overwhelming concern, why haven't you spent the past 14 years demanding an even more thorough investigation, rather than flogging this crap in an attempt to smear a Democratic candidate?"

What approach would you suggest, pirhana?

[hijinx87]

51. it's worth observing . . .

that it didn't come from nuts, it came from us.

that is actually the most depressing part.

edited for misspelling.

[Heidi]

53. Duly noted.

:hi:

[karynnj]

56. In fairness to Pirhana,

is the claim that Hillary was involved with Foster all that less believable than the SBVT junk.

Kerry was given medals by the Navy and even Nixon never questioned - though he investigated - his service. Navy paople, through Zumwold, had through the years spoken highly of the Senator's service. A noted historian had written a book, speaking to over 100 people - who were there - and had found no one who questioned his service.

In both cases, the facts are totally on the Democrats side. I think her point is that we can expect to hear all that garbage again - though we will hear outrageous things about ANY Democratic nominee. There is nothing in her post to imply that she believes the garbage.

[Heidi]

62. And in defense of my earlier reply,

all we can do is restate the true and obvious: this issue has been investigated many times over by both "our side" and theirs.

Hillary isn't my preferred candidate for the Democratic nomination (though if she's the party's nominee, she'll certainly get my vote), but I trust that she's experienced enough to have anticipated all of the mud mud that the right might throw at her, including fabricated :tinfoilhat: mud. Wouldn't you agree that she's _that_ experienced and well advised?

Beyond the rational, fact-based proposed answer I gave in my earlier reply, I don't feel that I (or other individual progressive) am personally am responsible for crafting strategy around how best to answer the right wing on tired, irrelevant issues like the one raised by the OP. :shrug:

[MonkeyFunk]

9. good!

if the best they have is a 15-year old trumped up issue that's been thoroughly debunked by numerous investigations, we're golden.

[Heidi]

10. !

:thumbsup:

[Allyoop]

35. Smears

Well that attitude really worked for Kerry against the swift-boaters didn't it?

[MonkeyFunk]

78. The swift boat allegations

hadn't been debunked many times over the course of many years.

[JoDog]

12. I've already offered a deal

to a Republican friend:

I will offically consider Pat Tillman's death an accident (not murder or fragging) if he will officially consider Vince Foster's death a suicide.

He hasn't accepted yet.

[Heidi]

68. If he'd been wise, he would have accepted,

since Tillman's death hasn't yet been investigated nearly as thoroughly as Foster's death was. If you get a chance, you might want to up the ante to: Tillman's death ruled accidental by the military, the DOJ, Congress, two Independent Counsels and possibly an international court. That would be a much fairer comparison, wouldn't you agree?

[Vinca]

13. I'm sure that's why so many pukes are licking their chops and

trying to convince us all Hillary is the inevitable nominee. They're going to make the Swift Boat guys seem like the Welcome Wagon.

[Sparkly]

14. Well, we can always make up crazy nonsense about their candidate, I guess...

:shrug:

[Vinca]

16. That's the point where Democrats fail. We're too honest, too kind,

too considerate, too polite. Down and dirty, lying politics doesn't seem to work well when attempted by Dems. I guess that's good, but the whole Swift Boat episode is still a real thorn in the side.

[karynnj]

63. It's also because we do not have the same echo chamber

One of the most disgusting pieces of analysis that I read on 2004 was the excerpted chapter of the Mark Halperin and John Harris book where they declared Matt Drudge to be the current Edwards R Murrow. The example given was when a Republican operative gave him information on John Kerry getting a haircut in DC. The story Drudge wrote was that Kerry had a $1000 styling with highlights etc and that he was very vain about his hair and very fussy about it - the story came with made up quotes. Kerry's office immediately explained that he had simply had a $75 haircut PERIOD. Drudge and the Republicans were called brilliant rather than disgusting for this completely dishonest reporting by two people considered respectable mainstream pundits.

In 2004, it seemed that an internet rumour on a right wing site would be highlighted by Drudge, then within seconds it would be picked up by ALL the right wing talk people. By the end of the day, it would also have been repeated on many cable TV shows - in some cases as fact - in others paired with a weak respobse - by their "internal official Democrat". It then would migrate to many mainstream sources. So, with in a few days, people would have read or heard the same thing from many sources that they might see as independent. This creates the effect that it has to be possible or so many people wouldn't believe it.

One model often given for how a rumour spreads is that of how a virus spreads. Here it is a rumour that multiple sources and a support network. The question is how to stop the spread of the rumour. From the virus model, one solution is to that enough people need to be naturally immune or "vacinated". Here, "naturally immune" may be those people who see through his distribution network and who believe nothing coming from these sources. The "vacinated" may be a means to diffuse the specific lie - maybe by using email or U-tubes to get out a quick response to people on our side. (Going back to 2004 - imagine U-tube existed, the Kerry speech to the firefighters and/or his crews refuting that these people even served with Kerry couls have been spread faster than the media chose to tell the truth.)

No candidate will be immune from this. Senator Kerry and VP Gore were actually unusually clean politicians who had been in the public eye for decades- and both had their lives and personalities distorted.

[elizm]

33. And THIS is one thing they are going to use...

Sweatshop - Abramoff Cash = Trouble for Clinton

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3413857&mesg_id=3413857

[Perry Logan]

15. Tell them Foster was killed by Republican agents, in a botched frame-up attempt.

Laugh maniacally while saying this.

[ellacott]

17. That's only the beginning of it.

That's the reason they are pumping her up now. They want her to be the nominee.

Vince Foster is just the tip of the iceberg. They are already preparing for the attack they are going to do to her. It's going to be ugly and non-stop.

Their theory is that these attacks will turn away the uniformed Independants. The majority of Conservsatives will not vote for her under any circumstances,

That's why it's troubling to see the division that's being created in this primary season. She should make a point not to alienate too many Democrats especially with the spats she gets into with Obama. Her fanatical supporters on this board should also consider this.

If she becomes the nominee whe will need all the support she can get.

[FormerDittoHead]

21. I like Hillary. She would be a fine President. But this is why I oppose her nomination...

For Pete's sake, KEN STARR was the investigator who cleared the Clintons of any wrong doing. I guess that Ken Starr is just another "lib-rule".

The case here is that even with this pedigree, this story continues to live on, and this is just the EASIEST of the ones to explain away - there are so many other conspiracy minded rumors which they cranked out (like how many people died who've known the Clintons, etc).

I DO believe that her skills as a debater and a speaker along with her experience running for office will win her the office, but it won't be a clean, clear win, and it will continue to leave the country divided when there's so much work to be done...

[Tellurian]

22. I hear they're already setting up for Obama..

with the meme, asking the American people, do they really want a Muslim president?

Of all the candidates, Obama is the weakest by far and will be hounded daily by the VRW and Evangelicals.

Hillary is the strongest. Vince Foster is a non-issue!

[ellacott]

27. You still have to make this about Hillary vs. Obama

Goodness. This goes deeper than that.

They have criticized all the candidates. They talk about Edwards being an ambulance chaser and a former hedge fund employee. This is not just about saying things against the candidates.

This is about a sick hatred they have for the Clintons in paticular.

I wish we would understand this and stop with the cheerleading for their preferred candidate.

[Tellurian]

28. You brought it up about Hillary..

I just pointed out a Republican meme..that once painted with it will be hard for Obama to deny..

We know very little about Obama. I can guarantee you, before the Primary the Republicans will have books published about Obama, things he and we never knew about. (Repubs talent is to repeat a lie until it becomes their version of the Truth)

Hillary is our best and safest bet. Everything about Hillary has been hashed over for the last 20 yrs. There are no more surprises with her as the nominee. If they try....they will be decimated in short order. Bill and Hillary are family.

[ellacott]

31. I brought up Hillary because that's what this topic is about!!

This isn't about Obama but have to bring it up. You can't get off your script long enough to understand what this is about.

[Tellurian]

46. The Repubs dread Hillary as the Dem nominee..

you think their going to tell you that?

They're the party of deception. We've had two other candidates that were robbed of the presidency. The only one that can guarantee they won't fold if there is another election theft IS Hillary. They are the *only* democrats that have survived the hate machine of the REpublican Party. There isn't another candidate in the field that can make that same guarantee with proof of production like the Clintons can.

If you're looking for a fresh face, call a plastic surgeon.

[ellacott]

47. You don't pay attention

And what is this and was it necessary:
<If you're looking for a fresh face, call a plastic surgeon.>

Stop with the cutesy cliches and just talk.

Of course they are afraid of her. It's not a secret. Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of politics would understand that. That's why they are going to pull out all stops in their attack machine if she is the nominee. That's how vile they are.

As someone else posted, she's been focus grouped about this and is prepared for what is going to come her way.

I just wish everyone else understands this.

[Tellurian]

49. Are you new at this or something..

why the scare tactics? Many of us have been at this on and off for decades.. I don't know what you think pulling out all the stops really means...So, enlighten me.

[ellacott]

50. I was going to ask you the same question, what's with you

I seriously, seriously doubt you've been at this longer than I have.

I've explained my position.

[Tellurian]

54. Oh, ok... I'll file it under the "Boogie Man's gonna getya" file.. thanks for the enightenment...

:crazy:

[ellacott]

55. You aways have the sarcastic answer, is that all you're about

I am going to ask you to drop the sarcasm and obnoxious comments and just talk. I wish you could understand better. I wish you would grow up.

I don't have to provide you with further enlightenment. I've made my point already in this post, others have also. What is it that you can't understand?

You don't understand that the Republicans are waiting for HRC to be the candidate so they can do a media blitz of negative ads about. Why is this hard for you to understand.

[hijinx87]

58. it's hard to understand because it hasn't been proven.

no one has proven that the republicans are "waiting" for anyone to be
the candidate so they can wheel out some preprogrammed slimefest. they
excel at dirty tricks; they will attempt to slime the nominee regardless
of who it is. this is a given. your only point, and it is frankly difficult
to take seriously coming in a thread about some idiotic conspiracy theory, is
that hillary's skeletons are somehow worse than obama's or edwards'.

I just don't buy it.

I just don't understand the argument, which at it's very foundation, is "don't
vote for hillary in the primaries because the republicans really, really hate her".

[ellacott]

60. I don't have anything against Hillary, I'm not trying to disuade anyone

from voting for her. I apologize if I gave you or anyone else that impression.


It has nothing to do with who has more skeletons(I did agree with you on another thread that there should be unity regardless on who the nominee is).

All I was saying is that this was going to be their strategy. Another person posted that they agreed that this was their strategy and she is being prepped for this.

I mentioned that I knew people on the RNC level and was on their mailing list. In their emails they were setting up their talking points and it was the past scandals including, but not limited to, Foster. They are focusing on the independants but their base is squarely anti-Hillary(one of them said they'd vote for Bin Laden before voting for HRC).

My thinking is that it is always to good to know your enemy's strategy so you would know how to counter it.

I guess it's not that important here. No problem, I just glad that at least HRC is preparing for it.

[hijinx87]

65. I doubt very seriously that the republicans are

revealing their actual campaign strategy to strangers via email.

I'm not doubting your honesty, I just don't think they are that
stupid.

[ellacott]

67. But why do you think their strategy would be secret?

It was clear the swiftboating they were going to do to Kerry. I knew a few conservatives(veterans) who lost faith in Bush but couldn't bring themselves to vote for Kerry because they felt betrayed by him regarding Vietnam.

This was a glaring weak spot for Kerry. He received and gave in to terrible advice and it contributed to the reason he lost.

[hijinx87]

69. because a publicized strategy is functionally useless.

I also think the SBVT:Vince Foster (and such like) parallels are overblown in
the first place.

the entire country has been drug through the muck of the clinton era "scandals"
ad nauseam by that sexually repressed little mutant, kenn starr. there isn't
much there that people don't already know. the SBVT and their bucket of slime
were new, on the national stage, at least, and unfortunately they had their 15
minutes of fame in the middle of a presidential campaign.

your argument can actually be said to support my point; that it's smarter to
nominate someone who has been vetted nationally, and has survived exposure to
the right wing slime machine, the MSM, and any number of other groups of bug
eyed zealots with an axe to grind.

anything that gets drug out of the cesspool about the clintons is automatically
"old news".

[ellacott]

70. I guess we'll find out what they're going to do

Right now she looks like she will be our nominee. I still think they're going to try and use the past scandals because there are many people who don't fully understand it and are easily swayed.

It's been great talking to you. It's wonderful to be able to have an intelligent conversation with someone who has a different opinion without it being full of insults.

[hijinx87]

71. despite my support for HRC

I readily admit that it is entirely too early to tell. most of the
country has yet to even begin to pay attention. maybe iowa is plugged
in this early, but caucus states are a little difficult to try to nail
down in the first place.

the whole thing could turn upside down next week.

and it was very enjoyable talking to you as well. I sometimes think it
is impossible to disagree agreeably here at DU.

[jillan]

73. Not email - rw radio - I thought I said that

[Tellurian]

59. I'll be sure to pass your message along...

the chicken little rant!

buh-bye!

[ellacott]

61. There you go again, after I asked you nicely to stop

One day you'll learn.

[hijinx87]

34. one difference is

that team clinton won't sit back and take torpedo after torpedo, which
means (assuming that she captures the nomination, of course) that I won't
have writhe in agony while our nominee decides whether or not to "respond"
to siftboat-like tactics or not. god, that was excruciating.

Hillary has been intimately involved in two successful national campaigns.
When she is attacked, she retaliates. instantly and effectively.

[Dawgs]

38. You're joking right?

The only people that believe Obama is a muslim are the extreme right. And even they know it's not true.

You're really reaching Tellurian; as usual.

[Dawgs]

43. "Obama is the weakest by far"

Hillary has much higher unfavorable ratings(40%-50%).
Obama unfavorables are in the twenties.

Obama does better against Republican Presidential in the general.

Obama does better with Indys and Republicans.

Obama's biggest weaknesses are lack of experience and the 'Muslim meme'.

Obama's strength and Hillary's weakness is their position on the Iraq war.



"will be hounded daily by the VRW and Evangelicals" - Why???

"Hillary is the strongest" - Why???

[LanternWaste]

57. Wasn't that already tried and shot down?

Wasn't that already tried via the 'Barak bin Laden' tactic just after he announced his candidacy (e.g., Fox News running it as his name in their tag lines)? And wasn't it shot down as ineffective and w/o merit within app. a month?

What are the specific and relevant reasons you believe Obama to be the weakest of the candidates?

(As a disclaimer, I'll state emphatically that I have neither chosen, nor ruled out any one candidate, which is why I find your... analysis somewhat incomplete and am curious as to why you feel Obama is the weakest)

[wyldwolf]

26. how do you know what their theory is?

[ellacott]

32. I know because because I know people on the RNC level n/t

[hijinx87]

36. fine. bring . . . it . . . on! (to borrow a phrase)

all except this time, we will mean it.

[ellacott]

37. That's the mindset we have to have

That's also why I wish all this dissent that's being attempted between our Democratic candidates would stop.

We are going to have to be united like we never were if HRC is our nominee.

[hijinx87]

39. a united front will be necessary regardless of the nominee, of course

I try to stay out of the candidate wars; some days I am more
successful than others.

it's just depressing and suicidal to brawl with people that are
in your own trenches. this infighting could easily result in a
weakened and damaged nominee staggering to the convention. that
helps no one but the rethugs.

I really wish that people would look at the big picture.

[ellacott]

40. That's very true, and full of wisdom n/t

[Schadenfreudian Slip]

77. Fine, be a lackey

...a sheeple, that will make us no better than the rethugs.

[wyldwolf]

41. ok.. uh huh.

[ellacott]

44. Anytime

[hijinx87]

19. garbage. and 10 year old garbage, at that.

if vince foster (and such like) is all they've got, they may as
well admit that they have nothing.

they are gonna get pasted. the rethugs are 0 for 29 (or so) against
the clintons. you would think they would have learned by now.

I actually look forward to this sort of lame swift boating. they'll
never know what hit them.

[ellacott]

20. Just wait and see

amazing

[hijinx87]

30. I hope they try it. I honestly do

it will be the biggest political obliteration since goldwater.

it didn't not only didn't stick when clinton was in office, but
was dismissed as a disgusting and pathetic attempt at political
sliming. it certainly won't stick years and years later.

[Tellurian]

25. Yup, me too...It's almost laughable to think VF would be an issue..

The American people aren't stupid. If VF was a real issue, Hillary would have been tarred and feathered long ago and never have made it into the senate.

Obama, otoh, is problematic. The Rezko trial coming up in Feb/08 will be an embarrassment to the Democratic Party and could potentially hurt the chances of a democrat getting elected in 08'.

[CTyankee]

23. Of course, they'll start in again about it. No doubt in my mind. Also no doubt that

Hillary has already scripted this one. Not only scripted it, but had it focus grouped as well. As I am sure they did with the issues that were brought up at the last Dem debate.

Just remember folks, in big national campaigns EVERYTHING that could possibly be a possible RW talking point has been in front of focus groups. The winning argument in that venue is then what is scripted for the candidate to say.

My son in law is a political consultant who specializes in focus group preparation and delivery (for the Dems; he is working with Biden now but did work on Kerry's campaign in 3 states). I was amazed at how this all worked but when I saw several of his projects play out, I became much more realistic.

[wyldwolf]

24. If that's the best they can do, 2008 is a done deal for her.

[yellowcanine]

45. I agree, if they drag out the ghost of old Vince, they are truly desperate.

Not that this fact would stop them but it would be a sign of how they view their prospects.

[BeyondGeography]

29. It's crap, but the question is which Fatigue Factor will increase the most as a result of this

and similar Golden Oldies: Clinton Fatigue or Right-Wing Loon Fatigue.

Probably both, which is why a Clinton candidacy/presidency can only result in, well, fatigue. This is what happens when you run the same characters out onto the field for decades at a time.

[bigwest]

64. Exactly!

Hillary is the weakest in the General. Too much baggage, too much exposure, too tired!
Hillary over Obama now is like Ricky Henderson over Ichiro for you leadoff guy. Henderson was great....at one time. But now? No way!

[Doctor_J]

42. Mrs. TOJ got an e-mail yesterday blaming WJC for the mess the country is in

He let 9/11 2001 happen, and * is doing great cleaning up after him.

Making sure the 25% get to the polls next year, I guess.

[hijinx87]

48. this is ridiculous

"your candidate has bigger warts than my candidate" threads are utterly
pointless and ultimately unproductive, if not out and out destructive.

want to know why we can't win the friggin' white house? it's right
in front of you. we eat our own, and then feed them to the freaking
enemy in a weakened and wounded condition.

[bigwest]

74. Trying to

Trying to decide the strongest candidate for the general isn't eating anyone.
Just accepting the corporate media's "frontrunner" on the other hand?
That's truly weakening!

[hijinx87]

75. that just doesn't make much sense.

the strongest candidate by definition wins the primaries
and becomes the nominee.

and if you aren't ready to accept that, then you have a completely
different problem than what the primaries may present.

[BeyondGeography]

76. Welcome aboard

[Catherine Vincent]

52. Hillary has cleavage. n/t

[greyl]

66. If you want practice cutting thru the bs,

search DU's 9/11 Forum for "Vince Foster". You'll find a poster or 2 to spar with.

[Enrique]

72. it will remind people of the Clinton presidency

it will remind them of the outrageous GOP attacks on Clinton, which look a little different after two terms of a republican president.

That's why I'm glad Newt is back.