Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Has anyone other than Wes Clark responded to Lieberman's attack Iran comments?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
CarolNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 12:29 PM
Original message
Has anyone other than Wes Clark responded to Lieberman's attack Iran comments?
I know that Clark has been outspoken the last couple of days in his smackdown of Holy Joe and his ridiculous warmongering comments...but have any of our other "leaders" spoken up? Any of the 'big three'...Hillary? Obama? Edwards? Any of the other candidates? (I know Richardson was somewhere talking about sanctions rather than military action.) Al Gore? Anyone? They can't possibly agree with Lieberman on this, can they?

Did I read somewhere that Bob Graham said something?

When I take the time to actually think about what attacking Iran would mean and how much this Administration loves a war that they can send others to fight in, my stomach just drops. This is serious business. I hope there are others who will join the General in denouncing those ramping up the rhetoric on war with Iran. Waiting until the bombs start dropping, or until the war goes bad, will just be way too late on this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. Only other big name dem was Reid.
Harry Reid made a statement, not as blistering as Clark's though.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. I wonder where the rest of them are hiding?
Why are the others refusing to speak on the matter?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Could it be the campaing donations received by AIPAC that keeps some from
speaking out against a war in Iran? :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. The Reason, Ma'am, Is Simple, And Has Nothing To Do With The Canard You Have Raised
Lieberman's comments are of no signifigance, and it is a waste of time for persons presently campaigning for the Party's Presidential nomination to engage him. Only Lieberman would gain from it, through being treated as a consequential leader on foreign policy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. How about this, Magistrate?
It's not so much about Lieberman -- it's about a heads-up on the administration's dangerously foolish position on Iran.

General Clark has been calling out other saber-rattlers on this, as well. It may have a different resonance when it's against a Democrat (in name, at least).

In any case, I haven't heard other Democrats say much more than, "We have to engage Iran," "We have to talk to Iran," and "I wouldn't take use of force off the table," all rather unspecifically and only when it comes up. I think the people at www.stopiranwar.com, The General included, are much more proactive and outspoken on this issue, and the sharp criticism of Lieberman is another example of that.

So while Lieberman himself may be insignificant, I don't think the issue is; while engaging Lieberman for the sake of engaging Lieberman is unnecessary, engaging the public on this issue is. Would you agree with that?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Certainly, Ma'am
Edited on Wed Jun-13-07 02:33 PM by The Magistrate
Iran nowadays poses a problem both actual and political, and the worst threat to us in the situation is the bellicose incompetence of the administration.

It is important to sort out the various components of this problem, and engage them seperately and appropriately.

The most important element in the long-term Iranian drive for nuclear weapons. Given the nature of its ruling regime, that would be a dangerous and unsettling development. A great many powers, including Russia, traditional predators on old Persia, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia would find it a most disconcerting development. It is unlikely diplomatic and economic pressure will disuade Iran's government from this program; it is widely popular among its people, on simple grounds of national pride, for such weapons are seen as indicating first rank status in the world. It is also unlikely that any military measure short of full-bore invasion and occupation would be able to force a halt in the program, and unlikely air strikes and even commando raids could do more than delay it, while steeling resolve to proceed to success. In any case, such actions in the near future would be hideously premature, as Iran is as yet well short of the capability needed to produce useful quantities of weapons-grade material. Unpleasant as the prospect of Iran's clerics in control of atomic weapons may be, this may be one of the many problems that cannot really be solved with available tools. That is not something people like to hear, of course, but it is often the case in this life.

Seperate from this is the question of Iranian activities in Iraq. There is no question these are considerable: our invasion of Iraq and subsequent, readily foreseeable events stemming from it, have gone a long way towards towards gratifying a long-standing goal of Iran's government, to utilize the Shia majority there to capture the place as a satillite, and they are making every effort to get this achieved while the getting is good. The claims by the administration that Iran is behind many attacks on U.S. soldiers are bogus, but the matter is much less clear-cut than it was before the so-called 'surge' now underway. A great deal of the 'surge' activity in Baghdad is aimed at Shia militias supported by Iran, and not only in Anwar Province but in some Baghdad neighborhoods, U.S. forces are now openly co-operating with and arming Sunni militia forces. This complicates the potential interactions tremendously. While there is a tremendous hostility between jihadis of Salafist bent and Shia Iran, neither the Iranian 'special services' or the jihadis would scruple at the double-dealings necessary for covert co-operations on a small scale in this situation, each being sure that the balance of the skullduggery would favor their own goals at the end.

This sort of hole and corner business is traditionaly regarded as falling far short of sufficient cause for full-scale war. It is generally handled by arrest or assassination of agents, and small-scale cross-border engagements targeting facilities and routes that directly support the activity. Generally both parties know the rules and have their own reasons for keeping things at the 'incident' stage rather than escallating to open, major conflict. One of our major problems nowadays is that the present administration here has no conception of restraint, or respect for the traditional applications of state-craft, particularly where these concern the use of force. Its decisions are mostly based on domestic political considerations, where they are not based on pure pride and personal swagger.

The administration is going to try and flog the idea of military action against Iran, and will do so in the hopes of altering the political realities here in the United States. They will attempt to blur all these distinctions, and refer to these various items in the same breath as if they were interchangeable. They will be hoping to wrong-foot Democrats, and imagine rousing yet again the patriotic willingness of the people to rally behind military action in its initial stages. Democratic politicians are going to have be circumspect and considered in their responses. "All options are open" noises will strike most as necessary, and probably are, but expressed opposition to any immediate action, and exposure of the falsities on which any claims of urgent need for immediate action are based, is also necessary. The great underlying fact is that the people are pretty well fed up with military adventurings in the Middle East, and the blood-lust that set in in September 2001 is largely spent. The 'budget' of that blood-lust was a number of U.S. military casualties approximately equal to the number of our civilians killed in those attacks, and roughly a hundred of 'them' dead for every one of 'us' killed. Both have been exceeded....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CarolNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Yes, Lieberman means nothing...
Yes, yes! It has little to do with Lieberman. He is, at best, inconsequential. It’s about stopping another misguided damned war before it starts.

All of this warmongering rhetoric against Iran needs to be countered by Democrats and sane Republicans every step of the way, no matter who the rhetoric is spouting from. Lieberman’s not important but stopping miltary action against Iran is. And candidates emphasizing that ALL options remain on the table and trying to sound tough when talking about Iran doesn’t help much, you know?

Perhaps the candidates have no time for little things like worrying about war with Iran when they’re trying to line up donors and endorsements and things to issue press releases about but can’t somebody else be speaking out against it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. The whole meeting with Iran
seems a quiet obligatory token thrown the way of the critics, notably Clark. They can say "we did that." the quieter it happens and passes the more it can simply slip into the agenda as another barrier passed to getting their war. We need a lot more than Clark speaking out all the time because the steady escalation to war never stops, only at most adding fobs and sops to diplomacy and the media. The balance between war and peace is in some ways worse this time for being so damn quiet. All the lies, the premeditated criminality, the treasonous intentions are being rerun over and over. The last time there was not nearly enough to overcome the purposeful media drumbeat. This time only the credible voice of Clark seems to be raised in bold discord on a consistent basis. The institutional oppositions within the government, even Dems, seem more qualified, press muted and obscure than ever. Now indeed within the funding bills there is an even more chicken blank check for the selfish Bush aims and aggression against Iran.

Kucinich is also a strong voice, but maybe proves Clark's point it is even easier to silence dissent if you right the top Dems off as poltical contenders!

So does this mean the lesson the Dems learned from the Iraq War vote was not to make it a political issue, but grant Bush even more power and, the oil companies more sway, than ever? And to cavalierly throw more innocent lives into the shredder of cowardice and self advantage?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CarolNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Yeah, the whole thing's pretty damn scary, if you ask me. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Nothing?
No sir, you are mistaken. AIPAC may not be the only reason the various presidential candidates remain silent, it may not even be the main reason, but it's certainly a factor in why none of them have taken a strong stand against bombing Iran. All you need do is listen to what they say at the AIPAC meetings (Clinton and Edwards both spoke at the last one). They reserve a special bellicosity for that particular audience.

Please understand. I am a Jew. I love Israel. And I think the US needs to play a significant role in her defense. But I also believe that an attack on Iran will do Israel no good at all, for all that there are extremists within my community who are itching for a fight (mostly chickenhawks who have no understanding of the capabilities and limitations of military power), and they are not at all shy about flexing their political muscle.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
4. Bob Graham
Graham also ridiculed Sen. Joseph Lieberman’s (I-CT) calls for taking “aggressive military action” against Iran:

I don’t know where we’re going to get the troops to take aggressive offensive action against Iran. Iran’s a country that’s approximately 2.5 times the population of Iraq. It has a GDP that’s twice that of Iraq. It is a much more significant force in the world. And we see how bogged down we are in Iraq, how in the world are we going to even consider using massive military force against Iran?


http://thinkprogress.org/2007/06/12/graham-interview/
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CarolNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Thanks Wes Dem...
for that Graham quote. I thought I'd heard that he'd spoken out as well. Kudos to Senator Graham. He's a winner in my book.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Did you know I supported Graham?
Before Wes. Two great Americans.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. yes, agreed.
I had forgotten you supported Graham.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I would have gone with Wes in any case, I knew that
But it made it easier when Graham dropped out. He would have made a great president, too, though. The real deal, for real.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madinmaryland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
15. Should the Dems respond to Liebermans comments?
After all he is not in the Democratic Party. Why would any of the candidate want to give Lieberman any acknowledgement?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. You mean to tell me
That if some Republican senator were calling for the US to bomb Iran, you wouldn't want the Democrats to respond? Just let him or her continue to call for war and try to convince the American people how necessary it is, and go totally unchallenged?

Are you serious? Or are you just making up an excuse for some candidate who has already done some saber rattling of his own?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CarolNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Wow...
Yeah, let the bombs start dropping on another war...as long as we don't have to acknowledge Lieberman. Make Lieberman so important that we can't work to fend off a coming war because we risk giving him some kind of legitimacy. That makes a whole lot of sense. I take it you were for ignoring the swiftboaters' charges against Kerry in '04 because to answer them would be acknowledging idiots who didn't deserve to be acknowledged.

Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees or whatever they say.

I agree much more with Glenn Greenwald's take on the situation:
People like Joe Lieberman and the increasing "Bomb Iran" chorus of which he is a part are the precise opposite of "serious" and "tough." They are irresponsible and dangerous extremists and it is good to see Gen. Clark making that point clearly and unapolegetically. If these warmongers are to be impeded in what is plainly their goal of prompting a new war with Iran, only unapologetic rhetoric and candid explanations, like the one offered here from Gen. Clark, will suffice.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/06/12/today/index.html


It doesn't really matter what we think of Lieberman. It matters what those who are hearing him think, especially if there's no one there to voice another opinion. That's why it was so easy for Bush to get into Iraq, not enough people speaking up. So, we should go that route again? Oy! :eyes:

Thank goodness Clark, at least, is willing to do what it takes to try to fend this off before it happens, no matter how it makes Lieberman look. I think he needs some help, though. As much as I think of him, I don't think he can do this singlehandedly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
16. John Kerry in a speech today

Understanding today’s struggle as a global counterinsurgency makes clear the dangers of attacking Iran. At a debate last week, most of the Republican candidates seemed almost eager to use nuclear weapons preemptively. We can hope that this was political posturing, but just this weekend, Senator Lieberman advocated military strikes into Iran to disrupt insurgent networks. We all understand the threat Iran poses to the United States, and to our ally Israel. None of us accept the prospect of a nuclear-armed Iran. But my guess is Osama Bin Laden would love to see us bomb Iran, because it would stoke anti-Americanism, because it would weaken moderates everywhere, because it would unite the Islamic world against us.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3316895
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CarolNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Thanks WesDem...
Good for Senator Kerry...another voice of reason in an increasingly insane world.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue May 07th 2024, 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC