I think the Cheney Impeachment issue dimishes Democratic credibility.

[saracat]

We have the Gozo situation, the Iraq timetable as well as the abortion decision to take issue with. These are "real" issues that call for a solution. The Cheney impeachment is not going to happen and makes us look silly.I would love to have all of the Administration impeached and removed but it is not going to happen. I resent Kucinich throwing this into the mix as it is a distraction from those things we can achieve and makes us look less than credible.Any thoughts?

[nebenaube]

1. and why pray tell...

is it not going to happen?

[saracat]

2. we don't have the votes.We need Republican votes as well as Dem and we don't have them!

And if it ever got to trial the Senate would throw it out!

[Greyhound]

68. Believe it or not there are still a few people in Washington that take

their responsibilities seriously, and a few of them are Republiks. Now that arbusto_® has lost all credibility, and has become a liability to his whole party, you may be surprised at what happens as the evidence is laid out publicly all at once, and the pattern of absolute corruption becomes clear.

IOW, you never know if you don't try, or I still OW, that's why they play the game.
:kick:

[dave_p]

166. "you never know if you don't try"

Exactly... and it's the best way of making sure the American people know what went on behind the scenes

[ClassWarrior]

161. Where do you buy your crystal balls? Will you read the lumps on my head too?

:eyes:

NGU.

[loyalsister]

164. Or worse, maybe we do....

There are possibilities that we are not considering. Retiring Republicans ready to show honor rehabilitating the image of the party?

Dems who won't vote for it being traded. We know that several have been snowballed.

The Republicans hold the cards in the Senate. They could turn this around to their advantage any number of ways. Particularly considering the number of allies * has. He is not letting Chenney go.

It would be a crap shoot.

[AndyA]

3. So you would be content to just leave Cheney in office?

And let him retire and live out the rest of his life in luxury, at the expense of the rest of us?

No thanks!

He's as bad as any of them, if not worse. We cannot continue to turn our backs on criminals and expect things to ever get better.

[saracat]

4. We do not have a choice! We don't have the VOTES.

[Atman]

10. Very few initiatives EVER "have the votes" on the day they're announced.

The sponsors and supporter have to go out and make their case. Which they will.

Why are you afraid of going after criminals? These people are CRIMINALS. I could give a fuck about the vote count before the charges are brought. The only important count comes AFTER the charges are filed.

.

[Pacifist Patriot]

116. Whenever I see that argument I wonder exactly how much...

the individual knows about how the legislature works. If everyone waited until they had the votes to introduce anything we'd never get anything done.

[Throwing Stones]

22. The votes aren't the issue

The issue is exposing these bastards for what they are.

If Americans still want to vote for them after all the facts are on the table, then so it goes.

[saracat]

24. The votes are the issue.We look weak and foolish when we fail.

Just making the effort isn't enough. We have to win, and we won't on this.

[Dr Fate]

28. Maybe the Republicans who defend them will be the ones who look foolish.

I dont see too many people in the public who are going to take Cheney's side, win or lose.

[saracat]

30. No one will have to .This will probably not even come to a vote.

[Dr Fate]

45. Sounds right. I'm sure the timid, frightened "Dry Powder" DEMS will see to that.

I'm sure that behind the scenes, he is being attacked by DEMS in a way that they never even thought about taking on Bush or his invasion of Iraq.

[onenote]

106. yeah, that John Conyers is such a coward

And a know-nothing politician too.

:sarcasm:

[Dr Fate]

138. He has proved time & time again otherwise-but then Conyers is not running the show.

I dont think Conyers is frightened of Bush- I think people senoir to him and with more power than him certainly are.

[Toots]

154. Actually Conyers is running the show

The Bill is in his Committee. He gets to say how long it stays on the table and when or if it comes to a vote. There will be plenty of justification analyzed in this committee and I am quite certain that justification will be irrefutable..

[Throwing Stones]

36. that sounds vaguely like the "success in Iraq" I've been hearing lately

for about four frickin' years

[Mojorabbit]

52. I disagree

You put the thought in the population's head when it is discussed. The more it is publicized the more it sensitizes the population to the idea. Good marketing.

[RapidCreek]

140. No the bastards who don't vote to impeach

look criminal.

RC

[AnOhioan]

100. Then "We the People"

get off our comfortable couches and call our Reps. We call Speaker Pelosi, we call Majority Leader Reid, we take some responsibility in our governance. Giving up is not an option. We have all paid the price for our lack of effort. We have no-one to blame but ourselves if we allow our elected Representatives and Senators to ignore the facts.

[AndyA]

114. We MUST try. To ignore it is:

1. Against the Constitution.

2. Wrong.

Plus, as more and more GOP scandals emerge, we might find we DO have the votes. The Republicans will have to vote with the Dems to save their own skins. Or, they'll never stand a chance at re-relection.

If we don't try, we'll never know, and we'll be signaling our approval of these illegal activities by our neglect to prosecute and impeach.

[Zhade]

129. Some people care more about winning than the Constitution.

We used to call them Republicans, but I guess that description has expanded.

Well, fuck it, it's not like people who support the Constitution and rule of law are going to let this kind of political cowardice dictate what we do. Let 'em bitch, they're not going to stop us.

[Zhade]

128. Says you, the non-mind reader.

I think we should press on despite your gloomy crystal ball predictions, if only to send the message that criminals should be held accountable.

Or we could, you know, let them off as you suggest.

Nah. Gonna keep fighting instead.

[november3rd]

5. does it matter

if he's a crook?

[saracat]

7. No.We still don't have the votes.We need the rublicans folks and we don't have them.

We don't even have all the Dems.And if we did it wouldn't matter!

[Throwing Stones]

42. the votes are those of the electorate

in the end, it doesn't matter which way any one senator votes; the issue is standing up for the Constitution, each and every citizen, so that it can hopefully last another 220 years.

[Zhade]

130. It doesn't matter that he's a criminal?

So you truly DON'T care about the rule of law.

[Atman]

6. I think you're nuts. There is a reason Cheney has an 18% approval rating.

I think most people realize that W is too stupid to be pulling the strings, but to many at least he's "likable." A reg'lar guy. Cheney, otoh, has NO friends. Never has. He's been a festering boil of evil as far back as anyone can remember.

I have a question for you...what's your age?

Nixon's fall really started with the resignation of VP Agnew. It put the meme of "total corruption" before the American people. Cheney makes Agnew look like a nursery school teacher. Bringing "the brains behind the operation" down can only help us get to the real target...der Chimpmeister.

.

[saracat]

9. I remember Nixon.I watched every day of the hearings.

We still don't have the votes. The repugs took down Nixon.They will not vote against Cheney. These are different Repugs.

[Atman]

15. I disagree. I think Cheney's mother would vote against him.

He's an evil, nasty, evil fuck with very few friends. Even many in the house would rejoice at being liberated from his machinations.

.

[saracat]

23. Many Republicans still support him.The real world is NOT DU.

[Atman]

27. "Many" is not "all" or even "most."

I'm not basing my perspective on DU...I'm basing it upon reality. Dick "Dick" Cheney is NOT a popular man. The only friends he has are bought and paid for yes-men, or those on whom he has the goods. He is an evil, nasty, hated man...I doubt many respectable people will run to his defense.

.

[saracat]

29. Look, I would like him to be gone but the GOP will not do this!

For one thing there isn't even enough "time' to gather evidence. This should have been done earlier but it didn't have the votes them either. And just as many Dems don't want to be aligned with Kucinich as Repugs that want to diatance themselves from Cheney.

[Atman]

32. So let's do NOTHING.

Good solution.

:eyes:

Crime doesn't pay. Unless you're GOP, because democrats are pussies and won't go after them.

.

[saracat]

35. No lets do some "positive things" and get real results that we can run on!

I would rather be successful at turning this country arouns and setting an Iraq timeline than waste time trying to eliminate a VP whose term is almost over anyway. Punishing him is not my highest priority.He is going to be gone soon anyway>Maybe in more ways than one.

[Atman]

39. "We let the criminals walk" is NOT a platform upon which we'll win.

:shrug:

.

[Zhade]

133. We've sunk so low that people are actually arguing against upholding the law.

Stop the planet, I want OFF.

[Dr Fate]

33. The people who defend Cheney are the ones who will look like the bad guys, not DEMS.

n/t

[Zhade]

132. You would? You already said it doesn't matter that he's a criminal.

Evidence already exists. Did you forget about the six years of work Conyers, Waxman et al have been compiling?

[RapidCreek]

141. Which Republicans

List them...all.

RC

[RapidCreek]

148. Can't answer my question, eh?

Come on, who are the Republicans who still support him...List all of them. you know who they are right? It should be easy for a person as astute as you.

RC

[RapidCreek]

155. OK you can't answer my question

So, if you really wanted to make clear, publicly clear, which Republicans support the felon, how would you do it. You know, instead of saying "many".....a word which means ostensibly nothing.

RC

[Zhade]

131. "They will not vote against Cheney."

You sure are mightily convinced of something you don't actually know.

[EST]

8. You'd be wrong.

The cry all along has been that dems have no backbone, confirmed for many when Nancy Pelosi took impeachment "off the table."
I don't think it will come to anything, but this crew needs to be put into prison. Impeachment is nothing more than removal from office but it would hearten a lot of people, finally understanding that we are being heard, and would "dimish" nothing, except among freepers and that is a given, so who cares?

[saracat]

12. Impeachment is NOT removel from office.It is impeachment.

Clinton was impeached not removed from office. We have no say so over this.It is up tgo Congress and the GOP has as much voice as the Dems and we need to care what they think as we need their votes in 2008.The Democrativ vote alone will NOT elect us.

[Zhade]

134. "we need to care what they think as we need their votes in 2008"

Wow, I think you're the first person to explicitly state that we should let criminals walk to gain Republican votes.

Such crass political expedience at the cost of the Constitution and rule of law.

I'm at a loss for words.

[pnwmom]

112. Impeachment is like an indictment, it won't remove him from office.

For that, we need a 2/3 vote in the Senate, which we wouldn't get without lots of help from Republicans. Do you know of any that would vote to convict Cheney?

[acmavm]

11. Oh jeeze, every one cries "do something, do something' and when

somebody finally does someone posts something like this.

It's time (actually way past time) to play hardball. In the impeachment hearings a lot of shit can come out. And in impeachment hearings the news will reach a lot more people than just a soundbite on the news or a couple of line in the 'liberal media'.

Makes us look foolish? That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

[saracat]

18. I think this impeachment is as likely to succeed as Kucinich is to be elected president.

[acmavm]

34. Well then, let's just not try. Hell, lets just give the damn House and

Congress back to the repukes. The dems were elected because people want them to do something (like impeachment). But if you think they should just sit there and let things roll on as they have for all these years I suppose we should just crawl back in our hidey holes and do nothing.

[saracat]

38. well them you should have elected a "super majority " instead of a slim majority.

That is what it takes to get anything done.We ned that to ovwride vetos and we haven't got it. We should have done a better job electing Dems, particularly in the Senate.

[acmavm]

47. Okey Dokey, you win. Everybody, on the count of three!

Roll over and play dead.

[Zhade]

136. I'm sure some of MLK's tepid supporters made similar analogies.

Thank goodness they weren't listened to - just like people like you won't be.

See, the hilarious thing is that you think your kvetching will actually stop people from pushing for holding criminals accountable, when the opposite effect is more likely - you help galvanize us to fight harder.

So, in a way, thank you - because you WILL NOT stop us, no matter how fervently you wish to.

[Zodiak]

146. make that a big "me too"

I've been around the Dem message boards since 2002, and every one has the group of justifiers who consel nothing but risk aversion and justify every capitulation as some grand strategy to beat Bush. That has gotten us exactly nowhere fast. Let me tell you, Americans do not vote for the risk-averse....Americans cannot stand wishy-washiness nor do they like being deprived of a clear choice. When the "bloggers" push...they push for what the masses want. After all, they are the masses.

I have no idea why these "Dyed in the wool" loyalist, Democratic authoritarian types are such prolific posters, but every board has them, and every board laregely stopped listening to them right about the moment Leiberman signalled he would run as an independent. Even the semblance of centrist party loyalty was lost in that fight.

[Ghost in the Machine]

165. Whether or not impeachment succeeds, it is IMPERATIVE to at least TRY!

The BushCheney criminal junta has done more to harm our reputation and standing in the world than anything that's ever been done before. If we fail to at least TRY to right these wrongs, we are seen as complicit in their criminal acts, and complacent with having rogue criminals running our Country.

IMPEACHMENT IS IMPERATIVE! WIN OR LOSE, IT IS IMPERATIVE!

[robinlynne]

125. I agree with you. 100%

[lazyriver]

13. Whether it can be successful or not, I think it's necessary

to do it. If nothing else comes of it, the process will tie up the administration's resources, time and energy. Maybe it keeps them from accomplishing some of their remaining evil plans and maybe, just maybe, we might discover we have the votes after all. Republicans want to distant themselves from Bush/Cheney. This gives then a chance to look like a hero since Cheney has basically no approval rating. Enough Republicans might want to point to an "I voted against Cheney" moment come the next election cycle or the one after it.

[Zhade]

137. Gee, you get it. I get it. Why can't others?

NT!

[Uncle Joe]

14. If nothing is done, in spite of Bush/Cheney crimes

It will only set the bar lower for future administrations. I view this as a real issue and the unitary executive a major threat against our Constitution. I believe in allowing them to serve out their terms without even an attempt of justice, whether it be a long shot or not will only enable someone far worse to come along in the future.

[Buck Turgidson]

16. My thoughts, since you asked so politely...

Cheney First!!!

I'm concerned for your credibility when you believe that doing the will of the American people "diminishes Democratic credibility".

[Seabiscuit]

17. Curious - high crimes and misdemeanors aren't a "'real' issue, are a "distraction"

and doing something about it "makes us look silly".

I think we've looked silly for over 4 years now because we look spineless because we've done nothing about it and let them get away with it.

Maybe, just maybe it's about time someone like Kucinich forced all dems in the House to stand up and show us what their spines are made of?

Win or lose, the principle's the thing.

[saracat]

21. No .Succeeding at something is the thing. Priciples are a waste when they can't be used

to accomplish a credible goal.

[PreacherCasey]

40. Sad that you feel that way. Principles are what determine which goals to work toward.

Without principle, we are stuck in the trap of short-term thinking.

[saracat]

43. Principles have never won an election yet. And winning is everything.

Only if you win can you uphold your principles.

[Dr Fate]

49. So we will lose an election if we defy Cheney? Who loves him that much?

???

I know this is DU and everything, but who is this majority of people who are going to vote against us over taking on Cheney?

[saracat]

50. Many of the Republicans will.We also need their vote.

[Dr Fate]

54. You are telling me that people who are PRO CHENEY on 4/24/07 might vote DEM?

Who else's votes are we pretending to count on as an excuse to avoid fighing Bush? NRA members and Rush Limbaugh listeners, perhaps?

[saracat]

57. Yes.My husband was a Dem candidate AND a member of the NRA as well as is

Dem Gov.Brian Schweitzer of Montana. Gov.Schweitzer won with the GOP vote as did Gov.Napolitano of AZ.My husband almost won. And BTW, they aren't so much Pro Cheney, the Reugs, as Pro GOP. They will "protect " their party.

[Dr Fate]

60. So voters will come out in droves to avenge the popular Mr. Cheney- uh-huh.

Funny how we have to puff up Cheney as really popular guy so that we dont have to take him on. I'm sure you would have an excuse for letting him slide no matter how unpopular he was.

I wish some DEMS could come up with as many WAYS to fight Bush as they come up with excuses for NOT fighting them.

I've been seeing these internal excuses for 6 years now- it's the same bull I was told when we supported the war, or when we refused to say that Bush lied about WMDs.

You are wrong- no one likes Dick Cheney and no one is going to punish DEMS for taking him on. If any thing, many elected pukes dont want to be seen defending him.

Not that we will take him on- too many frightened DEMS for that.

[PreacherCasey]

51. I disagree. Winning is a by-product of having enough people on the side of your principles.

I work toward this every day. We need to get the word out about these criminals. People need to realize that the VP's actions ACTUALLY WARRANT impeachment. It is not just some joke or stunt.

[saracat]

53. I agree that their actions "warrant it but it isn't feasible. BTW,

can you name ANY election that was won by "priciples" or any peice of legislation that was passed by "pricples alone" without having enough "pork " attached to garner opposition votes.Just wondering.

[PreacherCasey]

56. We are going in circles. I respect your opinion, but disagree. eom

[saracat]

58. I respect yours as wel.I also disagree but thank you for the debate!

[Seabiscuit]

111. How utterly Rovian.

:puke:

Sorry, I just can't read words like that without feeling like barfing. As a licensed attorney I took an oath to uphold the law and the constitution. The oath swore me to stand up for principle above all else. Winning and losing comes and goes along the way (there's an old saying in legal circles that if you haven't lost a case yet you just haven't been in practice long enough), but remaining true to principle is all that ever matters, and all that will sustain you in your practice as well as in life.

The behavior of politicians (mostly Repukes but sadly too many Dems) in Washington during the past decade for the most part has made me physically ill at times.

Even if absolutely no one in the House sides with Kucinich's articles of impeachment, I think he's made an important first step in the right direction, and I applaud him for it. I want the list of names of any Congresspeople who vote against him. I want their scalps.

[RapidCreek]

156. Jesus, thought I was the only one.

It's odd that none of the "democrats" who insist upon the political expedience of failing to make an attempt to impeach Cheney don't make the connection, isn't it? Win or loose we shall have the NAMES of those in congress who don't feel the Constitution is worth the paper it's written on. NAMES which should help in any future campaign, those candidates who do understand that they have taken a solemn oath to protect it.

We shall have a simple list from which to work...no "nuances" there, my tweety bird loving friends.

I've been attempting to point out the importance of establishing such a list elsewhere in this forum and I'm attacked for it....very odd.

It's good to see someone else understands the simplicity of it all.


Peace and Inner Harmony,

RC

[robinlynne]

126. Exposing what cheney did is a real goal. you bet it is. just the impeachment articles themselves

accomplish quite a bit.

[marylanddem]

19. Democratic Credibility is ENHANCED by being BOLD

Pound away, chip away, hammer away at these fucking idiots in any way and every way. Make their lives living hell.

[frogcycle]

20. holy crap, read the Constitution

they have NO credibility if they stand by and allow unconstitutional and illegal activities to go on WITHOUT doing their duty.

They swore an oath to uphold the Constitution - all of them. Even the pugs. This is not a popularity contest; it is not American Idol, it is our fucking government being dismantled before our eyes. Its about time the wheels started turning as prescribed in the constitution.

[ixion]

25. yep, you said it

:applause:

[Dr Fate]

26. I predict that many DEMS will fight DK on this harder than they ever THOUGHT about fighting Bush

Just my prediction...I hope to be wrong.

I'm glad DK is going to try to open up some debate on this- I want to SEE which DEMS work to kill this, and which DEMS fight for me.

For each elected DEM who fights him on this, I'm going to look to see if they fought Bush as hard in opposing the war.

[bvar22]

124. I'll be taking names too.

Some of the Corporate Owned Dems will be ordered to oppose Kucinich or lose their large single source contributions.

[paulk]

31. I agree

this is nothing more than grandstanding by DK, and, in the long run, actually hurts the chances of a Cheney impeachment.

I don't think, though, that it will be much of a distraction from the more pressing issues you mention - no one but the DK faithful are going to be paying any attention to this... all DK will accomplish here is to marginalize himself even more than he already has.

[dweller]

37. umm ........... okay .

and you are paying attention to this why?

a DK faithful,
dp

[paulk]

62. because someone asked for my opinion

it wasn't you

[dweller]

80. thanks all the same for the kick to the thread

and for a clear interpretation as to why many of us are striving for this impeachment resolution to succeed, become mainstream news, or just become a thought in the mind of the public.

as to whether it is 'a distraction... no one but the DK faithful are going to be paying any attention to' , heh. It is already garnering the attention of the real distractors.

keep up the good work. Note the rec above? I want to make sure this gets as many eyes upon it as need be. Again, thanks for your input. In the whole scheme of things i'd like to know who was ultimately ready to take the stand to right what is wrong in this country, to dare to speak up when the media shut us out, to have the courage to try to express what the voters put them in office to do last November. To hold the criminals accountable in whatever way, at whatever cost. And if need be to put their reputation and political future on the line. DK does that for me.

i'll put you in the 'it wasn't you' column.
dp

[saracat]

41. Thank you.The voice of reason .At last. I hope you are correct.

[leveymg]

44. Somebody's gotta be the first in Congress to lead on this issue.

Dennis is the one. Why resent him for it?

It's not as if reasons to Impeach Cheney are going to go away.

[RapidCreek]

172. Because they are Hired Republican Plants, Subversives

they get paid for this shit.

RC

[lovuian]

46. Cheney needs to be Impeached and I want to see who votes

for him even if we lose

Come out of hiding Cheney lovers

[solara]

48. The Dick's list of crimes is well known to us here at DU and on other progressive sites

That is why it is so important to bring that list to the people and to expose his crimes to the light of day. C-Span will be watching as DK lists them - one after the other. For instance, the MSM has done their best to spread the perception that the Plame scandal is just a political ploy.. that it isn't "such a big deal".. The outing of a CIA agent is NOT business as usual. It is a felony. And this is just one item on the list.

Also, it will soon be evident that all of these scandals are tied together. Public debate of the Dick's crimes is vitally important. We cannot continue to sit by and hope that the smoke and shadows these criminals hide behind will just suddenly disappear. We have to MAKE them disappear. If there aren't enough votes this time.. Hopefully there will be when the next person steps forward or the next. Once the spell is broken.. everyone will see that the emperor has no clothes. None.

This is NOT about a blow job.. and that will soon be more than clear to the American people.


INVESTIGATE IMPEACH INDICT IMPRECATE INCARCERATE :banghead:

[Disturbed]

59. "Winning isn't everything. It's the only thing."

Isn't that a football anthem? This aint football. This is about the American Constitution. Crimes against America must be revealed to all Americans. Whether the Rethugs in Congress excuse these Crimes is not as important as revealing those Crimes. We cannot allow these Crimes Against America to be ignored!

[saracat]

61. Only those who win acheive anything. The votes to pass the amendment must be there to pass it!

And only those who win congressiobnal and Senate races can vote to accomplish anything.You have to win to vote .

[solara]

66. Amen! This aint football, that's for sure.. these criminals must be exposed..

We have to be the ones who frame this issue. It is NOT ok for these criminals to skate just because they hold high office.. if anything, it is more imperative that they be held accountable. DK is very courageous... right now he stands alone in this but maybe his courage will inspire others to step forward and join their voices with his.


:cry: I want my country back


INVESTIGATE IMPEACH INDICT IMPRECATE INCARCERATE :banghead

[damntexdem]

55. I'll tell you what diminishes Dem cred: not going after these criminals!

Gonzo, Cheney, Dubya -- 1, 2, 3. Go after them and impeach them!

[ddbaj]

63. Truth.

Impeachment is throwing away the 2008 election. How so many people, including smart people like DK can fail to understand how American works boggles the mind. The media and the GOP are looking for anything, anything to use to beat the democrats over the head in 2008. Impeachment gives them the perfect talking point to use.

Damn it people, all of Cheney's crimes have already been tainted by media spin, they won't stick. Unless we get something new, it's a failure and a losing issue. What will we use, Iraq? It's old news. We're playing right into the hands of the GOP and corporatist media. Just ask yourself, would articles of impeachment make Karl Rove and his ilk happy or sad? I know if I was a GOP strategist I'd be praying for them.

[PreacherCasey]

64. Say that to the families of the soldiers who died for this lie. eom

edit: spelling

[ddbaj]

65. This won't bring them back.

And 4-8 more years of GOP rule sure as hell won't save any lives. Say that to the families of the soldiers who will die if we elect McCain.

[Dr Fate]

70. But it would make another Prez. twice before doing to someone elses kids.

And I'm not convinced that opposing Dick Cheney will cause voters to dislike DEMS-and vote against us. No one likes Cheney and no one likes the war- this isnt 2002 or 2004.

I've been hearing this chicken-little shit for 6 years now- this is nothing more but the same excuses & timidness that got us into the war, and that lost us 3 election cycles in a row.

Same shit I heard when we wanted to say that Bush lied about WMDs, and the same shit I heard when we wanted to beat Rove to the punch over the AWOL thing.

"No- no we cant do that- voters dont like it when we fight because of (Insert excuse of the day here.)"

[ddbaj]

72. No.

Did Nixon's impeachment make Bush think twice about warrantless wiretapping? The future deterrent argument doesn't hold.

Also, it's a sad state of affairs but it is the true. The deck is stacked against us, this is a right-wing country in great part due to our corporatist media. We have seen them in action, no one on DU can deny this fact. Do you honestly think they would NOT have a field day with impeachment?

Seriously, what do you imagine the media doing with this? Cheering the dems on?

[Dr Fate]

79. So under your excuse, no Republican EVER gets impeached, no matter what.

And you can take your "the media will be mean to us" excuse to someone else. I stopped accepting that as the catch-all, fall-back excuse years ago.

The battles that we lost when we were frightened of media spin in the past are still lost battles- we never won a damn thing by sitting back and letting them frame everything one way or the other.

Experience proves that they are going to try to spin things against us no matter what we do-right or wrong. So we may as well do the right thing and work harder to fight the spin.

I'm sorry to make DEMS work harder, but yes- if we did impeach, we would have to work harder at fighting media bias. Boo-fucking hoo.

If it exists on the level you claim, then it's about time we ADDRESS media bias one way or another as opposed to using it as our constant excuse for not fighting...

[saracat]

85. NO republican will ever be impeached without Republican votes.

[Dr Fate]

89. Let them defend Cheney & this war tooth & nail then. Their voters will disagree with them.

Unless you are still trying to convince us that Cheney is secretly popular enough to cause the masses to rise up in his defense.

[saracat]

94. No but they will vote to defend their party. You insult them and their VP they will fight back.

Disliking chebey is one thing, impeaching him and bringing shame to their party is another. As a Dem, I sometimes can't relate to that lockstep thinking but it is very powerful.

[Dr Fate]

97. I'm sure they will fight back if we insult them. You never want to be in a situation where we fight.

All you seem to be saying is that if we take them on, they will fight back.

Well no shit. Some excuse that is.

It must be that you think we should just avoid any kind of fight with them, or anything they might drum up as an "insult" to the die-hard base of the party.

Sorry, I just dont see enough voters out there who are going to side with Cheney over anything-much less lying us into a war- the numbers are not there.

[frogcycle]

102. so you prefer to honor and obey?

get real
this is fucking war

these people would as soon step on you as look at you
and you are worrying about "offending their honor?"

we need to absolutely crush them, and that means an all-out full frontal assault. We have to bring every trick they have out of the woodwork. They don't negotiate; they don't compromise. Thinking you can make then any more ruthless than they already are is naive.

[saracat]

88. Clinton's popularity soared with impeachment.What do you think would happen with Bushco?

Americans dislike the impeachment process and view it as "piling on" they will support the underdog. But you don't believe that I know.Sigh. Du is not representative of the US.

[Dr Fate]

91. Cliton presided over 8 years of peace & prospertity. Cheney? Everyone hates his guts.

Clinton's poularity =Cheney's popularity?

LOL! Not only a lame excuse amongst many excuses, but an invalid analogy on almost every level.

[saracat]

92. No one was hated more by the GOP than Clinton.

And Clinton was never as popular with the general public then when he was impeached.

[Dr Fate]

98. Sure the GOP hated Clinton- but everyone else in the USA loved him & his record- not so w/ Cheney.

With Cheney, even people in his own party, and certainly the less partisan old-time conservatives, moderates and independents cant stand him.

Not so with Clinton- we was popular before, during and after impeachment with more people than just partisan DEMS.

Cheney was maybe half-way popular years ago, and is now one of the least popular people ever.

[dave_p]

167. Bushco have killed 850,000 for lies

... Clinton was just a poor shot. And nobody's proposing to impeach Cheney for that, btw.

[RapidCreek]

144. No but it sure as hell made Ford, Bush 1, Reagan and Clinton

think twice....it's time for some repetition here....that's how we and other trainable animals learn.

RC

[PreacherCasey]

71. I say people need to wake up, and having an impeachment inquiry against Cheney will show them

just how serious this all is. You may be right, I hope not. I believe that saying, and more importantly DOING, nothing is a far greater chance to take however. It will be validating this truly criminal Administration.

[Dr Fate]

67. That's the same excuse we were given for why DEMS couldnt oppose the war.

Identical excuse-the only thing different is the date and the fact that Bush & Cheney are now the most unpopular people in the United States.

Iraq is OLD NEWS?

REALLY? I could have sworn that it is a CURRENT EVENT that is on everyone's mind so much that we won a recent election b/c of our opposition to Bush over it.

[ddbaj]

69. Yes, really.

If you can't see that you do not understand how America works. If impeachment is brought over something that is not totally new, it will be framed as the democrats deciding to get revenge on Cheney over something old rather than do the people's business. It will be repeated over and over and most Americans will be exposed to that and no opposing view point.

It's a dream come true for the GOP and the corporate media. I will not support something I know would help them. If I was working for them, I'd be cheering this on like mad.

[Dr Fate]

74. Sorry, but the IRAQ WAR is not "old news"- it's a CURRENT EVENT.

And in case you didnt know, people are still PISSED about this CURRENT EVENT, and Bush/Cheney's low poll numbers prove that.

You are just trying to grasp at any excuse you can- I've seen this over and over and over again for 6 years.

"The media will be mean to us if we do that" was the same reason we couldnt oppose the war or say Bush lied about WMDs too. You guys will ALWAYS pull out that excuse when it is time to fight. Funny, you never see the elected DEMS who apparently hide behind this excuse say a damn thing about media bias though.

You guys have to pretend that Cheney is popular or that everyone has forgotten about the Iraq War for your excuses to work.

The Iraq war is "Old News"- yeah, right.

[ddbaj]

76. Okay, maybe I should clarify.

It's old news in the sense that it's already in the American conciousness. So it will be easy to frame this an the dems attacking Cheney over something that happened in the past.

This will save 0 lives.

This will bring 0 troops home.

This will not do anything but give our opponents a chance to hurt us. Hey, maybe they won't, but we gain nothing and could lose everything simply because some people can't come to grips with reality. Like it or not, they will get away with their crimes. Just like the big players in Iran-Contra did and every other such affair. Accept it, realize America fucking sucks in that regard and try your best to win with the odds stacked against you. If you try to win under the delusion that you will get a grand just ending, you play into their hands.

[Dr Fate]

81. So our excuse isnt that Iraq is old news, but that Republicans can do what ever they want.

And the even more general assertion that "America sucks" is a nice touch too-I mean, who can argue with that? Oh brother.

As I said, you guys will always have an excuse, no matter what. It's been the same for 6 years- always excuses.

The fact that Iraq lies are aleady in America's conciousness HELPS us. Do you ever talk to people? EVERYONE is PISSED at Bush & Cheney over the CURRENT situation- no one thinks it is old news- people STILL hold those two accountable. No one "forgot" about this issue in 2006.

If one excuse gets shot down ("Iraq is old news" as an example), then another one is trotted out just as quick.

As I said in another post, I wish some DEMS had as many WAYS to take Republicans down as they have excuses for not doing so...

[RapidCreek]

171. Quite obviously the Republicans are hard at work

with the propaganda machine. I imagine the person to whom you responded and most of the rest of the Bush/Cheney apologists/subversives on this board are here for a reason...namely a salary.

RC

[Heathen57]

109. Playing Lap Dog to Cheney and Co.

won't bring home any troops either.

To follow the line of thinking on here, why did the Dems even bother to put the timetable into the Funding bill? It has no chance to ever go anywhere once the Emperor vetos it. It just makes the Dems look foolish to push for that since they can't win it.

If we follow your line of thinking, then we can expect the House and Senate to just give up the fight and give Bush exactly what he wants. And from what I have been hearing from the Dems, that is just what is going to happen.

If it does, then they deserve the moniker of Spinless and ineffective.

[RapidCreek]

170. To hell with justice, eh?

The odds aren't stacked against me or anyone else.....unless that anyone else is a lawbreaker. Mr. Cheney is a lawbreaker, a constitutional lawbreaker. Justice isn't a game, chief, it is what it is. If I murdered your mother last year and you wanted me prosecuted, would my buddy's frame you as someone attacking me over something that happened in the past? Perhaps so, but so the fuck what? You'd still want me prosecuted, would you not?

If one try's to "win" one is operating under a misconception in the first place....One isn't trying to win, one is simply doinig what he or she was sworn to do, namely to support and defend the Constitution.

Nobody is playing into anyones hands by doing his or her job.

The only way Cheney gets away with breaking the law is if people, both Republicans and Democrats, buy into the batch of
shit your peddling. THE ONLY WAY. How much are you being paid?

RC

[RapidCreek]

143. Cheney's crimes haven't even been completely exposed yet.

You live in a Republican dream world.

RC

[gratuitous]

73. I've found that if doing the right thing makes me look silly

I tend to do the right thing anyway. I know that I sleep better at night, even if some nameless, faceless people think I looked foolish stopping at that stop sign on my bike.

[IChing]

75. I think the Tillman hearings dimishes Democratic credibility

if the generals are not held accountable.

I resent Waxman throwing this into the mix.


:sarcasm: :rant:

[Dr Fate]

82. Attacking the Swift-boat Vets would have diminished DEM credibility too.

It's a good thing we sat back and did nothing on that one too.

I think that filibustering Alito would have dimished our credibility too- especially with young women.

According to the excuse makers, claiming that Bush lied about WMDs, and opposing the war were other things that were going to keep us from winning elections too. Except we lost those elections where they were saying that.

[saracat]

87. We didn't sit back on that but whatever.

[IChing]

93. Anything that brings up the lie and subjugation of this administration to the public

Works.......including the impeachment of Cheney will bring them out into the light of investigation and show the public what cockroaches are really running this country, it is the investigation not the vote on impeachment that matters that happens in the Senate anyway.

So whatever to you too.

[Dr Fate]

95. No, I'm right- the same exact excuses are trotted out everytime we want to fight Bush.

Whether we are talking about opposing the war, being aggressive against Rove in 2004, claiming Bush lied about WMDs, filibustering Alito, impeachment- the same hannd-wringing, chicken-little excuses are trotted out everytime, and we still end up totally losing the battle no matter how pleasant & timid we act.

[Vidar]

77. I'd rather be regarded as silly than as a coward & collaborator.

[Dr Fate]

83. Besides, the only people who find it "silly" are Cheney, some media and the frightened DEMS.

Every other Joe blow in America is already wondering, or can easily be pushed into asking why someone so incompetent and dishonest wasnt "fired" long ago.

[rinsd]

78. Not really. It will be ignored. See when McKinney introduced her articles

[saracat]

84. Amen.

[Dr Fate]

86. That goes against the conspiracy theory that Impeachment makes DEMS look bad.

If the media is ignoring this, then so much for the conspiracy theory put forth by the excuse makers that the media will use calls for impeachment to emabarass DEMS.

If it is so embarassing to us, then you would think that FOX news, etc would be playing DK's articles 24/7 right now.

[saracat]

90. Mckinney made us look like idiots.

[Dr Fate]

99. How? The media didnt even cover it. No one even knows she did it.

In fact, I was barely aware of it. Now that you mention it, I do recall seeing that headline at DU at one point.

THis flies in the face of the theory that the media WANTS to cover impeachment news so they can make us look bad.

If that was the case, they would have made a top news story & news cycle out of McKinney-and they would now be covering DK's articles 24/7 in an effort to embarass us and whip up all those Cheney supporters you say are out there.

[BeFree]

123. Not really

But your OP makes us look like idiots.

[rinsd]

96. I don't see it as making Dems look bad.

I do think people are going to be disappointed when little or nothing comes of it but I do not see it as damaging (to Kucinich or party) in any way.

[Dr Fate]

101. Me either. But some here are saying that the GOP/media WANTS us to impeach...

...so that the media can use it to embarass us and whip up support w/i the GOP.

If this is true, then I would think the media would have played up McKinney more, and would certainly give DK's articles 24/7 coverage in the now.

Instead, they dont seem to say "the I word" much at all.

They are not very good instigators, if that is really the plan.

[mmonk]

103. I resent members of congress not impeaching them for their actions

over the last five years. It's a resentment that will last, a breach of trust that will not fade, and a suspicion and distrust that will last with me forever.

[peacetheonlyway]

105. you said it so perfectly "m" monk

these guys will have a dirt on their record that all future generations
generations of liberal democrats, will remember till their grave.

do not think that history happens in 5 year increments instead it happens in 20 year cycles.


before this 20 year cycle is up , the liberal backlash to this bush nightmare will have congress
more left leaning than any time in history.

and the democrats like pelosi will look like neocons vs. the folks we liberals put into office next time.

[peacetheonlyway]

104. Worse than NOT Impeaching

is arguing lame ass things like "we don't have votes"
and letting this chapter of history record that democrats ENDORSED by virtue of inaction
all the lies, deceit and outright criminal behaviour of this administration.

EVEN IF ONLY SYMBOLIC. we MUST begin impeachment.

because we have to tell the world that we don't endorse the actions of a very small minority fascist group that have manipulated the army and given control of the government to corporations and the pentagon.

THE STAKES ARE SO MUCH HIGHER THAN the "REAL" issues.

real issues are restoring elections. something that will only happen when this cabal is out of office.

you have to impeach, get them out of office to shift the power to enable the legal system to prosecute.

with the 3 branch system collapsed to the white house now controlling all power, the only tiny little power left to the senate is this frigging silly impeachment but they MUST USE IT and must use it now to show us the citizens that they too (the senators) are CREDIBLE or else, we'll be back to needing to dump some tea in the boston harbor.

'no votes' is just more democratic rhetoric, and if you poke behind the curtain, is about democrats not pissing off their moderate base and wanting to get re-elected.

look at Patty Murray telling teh washington citizens 900 folks and 17,000 on a petition NOT TO IMPEACH bush because she had 2 words for us activits.. "dick cheney". well patti you got your wish, we are not focusing our swarm on cheney thru the wonderful backbone of Kucinich, a backbone that pelosi does not have and we are doing to get cheney out first. so what will murray have as an excuse to not supporting washington state activists trying to pass an impeachment resolutoin at state level? she will have nothing to say and most of us will never forget this way she backed down from the SINGLE BIGGEST issue to all the problems our country is in. it's like you're saying amputate the leg or the arm, when what needs to happen is you need to stop the poison that is in the brain and heart of our government.

i feel sorry for democrats who turn so cowardly because they think they are armchair DC strategists... such strategy got all the senators voting FOR THE IRAQ war when none of them did any due diligence on the intell. leading up to the war.

give me a break. the senate has to act or we have to remove all of them and flush the toilet and hope next election cycle we get all brand new faces all across the board.

[mmonk]

115. Two of your sentences sum it up.

"EVEN IF ONLY SYMBOLIC. we MUST begin impeachment."

"THE STAKES ARE SO MUCH HIGHER THAN the "REAL" issues."

History will be a harsh judge.

[onenote]

107. You probably are right (although I don't think it'll amount to anything and won't be a distraction)

and brave to say it, since you are undoubtedly setting yourself up to be attacked.

Some of the posts seem to think that the necessary repub votes in the Senate will emerge...yet, its a certain fact that we don't have the votes to override a presidential veto on an Iraq timetable. How can anyone think we can attract repub support for tossing Cheney when we can't attract enough repubs to override the timetable veto?

In fact, I'm skeptical that we can get the votes in the House...only 16 Democrats would have to defect to prevent passage of articles of impeachment, and it wouldn't surprise me if there were at least that many Blue Dog and swing district Democrats who would take the view that impeaching Cheney was not part of the platform on which they ran and were elected.

At the end of the day, however, I doubt it will amount to anything and thus won't be much of a distraction. The resolution will get referred to Judiciary and John Conyers is a smart, astute politician who recognizes that having Cheney and his unpopularity out there will help the Democrats capture the WH and solidify their hold on Congress more than ran impeachment effort that will be viewed widely as purely partisan (since it will have no repub support) and will only end up rallying the repub base.

[sampsonblk]

108. We have to talk about the crimes, not the impeachment

If the headline is "Dems to Impeach Cheney," we are in trouble. If the headline is "Cheney commits several high crimes," then that's good for us.

All this talk of impeachment appears silly unless we keep the conversation on the crimes - and there are MANY.

[Jack Sprat]

110. If the evidence is there, IMPEACH, I say.

[NoPasaran]

113. Agree One Hundred Percent

Dennis is a clown and his impeachment resolution is just a publicity stunt. There is real work being done stopping this administration and thank goodness real Democrats like Waxman, Pelosi and Reid are actually doing it. Kucinich isn't interested in actually accomplishing anything, all he does is pander to his base of idealistic screwballs. Good thing that for all the noise they make on the internet there actually aren't all that many of them in real life.

[Pacifist Patriot]

117. I'm not sure I follow your logic since the articles of impeachment against...

Cheney are integral to both the "Gonzo situation" and Iraq.

[xiamiam]

118. this is not a partisan issue..alllow them to make it so and they win..just roll over

and let the nonsense continue?..i just cant believe that anyone wants this off the table because of politics...impeachment is the right thing to do...and then incarceration...

[mtnsnake]

119. The only thing diminishing Democratic credibility is that all Dems aren't on board w/impeachment

Worrying about how we might come off by doing the right thing is just one more sign that Democrats are still letting Republicans push them around.

[Marnieworld]

120. I think letting them get away with war crimes diminishes their credibility more

It is so much more than political strategy. I believe that their crimes must be entered into the record, see the light of day so history will know what has really happened. I believe that hearings and investigations about all that they have done is the only way we can restore our country back to a Constitutional democracy.

Americans want impeachment. Once the facts see the light of day it will be supported by the majority. I believe that about our citizens.

I want leaders to do what is the right thing to do and trust that America will be better for it. The very act of writing the Articles and starting the discussion accomplishes much. It needs to be said regardless of whether they ever formally remove them. All of the constant airing of their criminal acts may force them just to resign in the hopes of avoiding prosecution. I trust the process and I applaud his efforts.

[Stephanie]

121. Any time I see a "concern" post worried that some action "makes us look bad"

I start to wonder who "us" is, in the poster's mind.

[Forkboy]

147. No kidding...and it's not like the Dems are weighted down with credibility to start with anyways.

It's exactly these kind of things they need to be doing.Right now they might as well be throwing balls of yarn at the Repubs.

[pberq]

122. Sorry, but the truth matters

Cheney is a war criminal, has lied to the American people and Congress, and committed who knows how many other crimes. It is high time impeachment is put on the table, no matter if the votes are there or not!

As someone wrote yesterday in the open letter to Nancy Pelosi, What is required to put impeachment on the table? Considering the enormity of the crimes committed by Cheney, et al.

[Zhade]

127. Yeah, attempting to uphold the Constitution is silly.

Jesus, where do you people GET this stuff?

[ProudDad]

135. Don't be so Negative. Don't be so timid. Think BIG and Think Positive.

There's NO downside to impeaching this bastard and the other one.

All of the evidence of their crimes will be widely publicized. More so than by any other method. The people are already overwhelmingly in favor of punishing these shits. Exposing their crimes in an open venue in a manner that the MSM MUST cover can ONLY be a bonus now and in the '08 election.

In addition, as happened in nixon's time, the exposure of his crimes resulted in a groundswell of public opinion that FORCED many of the fence sitters in the Congress to follow the dictates of their personal selfish interests and join the band wagon against nixon.

They will HAVE to follow the force of public opinion and, at a minimum, impeach the bastards.

[IndianaGreen]

139. Defending the Constitution and the republic trumps all partisan considerations

That should be a no-brainer to anyone that understands the important role the Constitution has played in preventing the rise of an American tyrant.

If we don't hold Bush and Cheney accountable, we will lose the country for good.

[Forkboy]

142. Any thoughts?

Yes...put your fucking country ahead of your party.

[ClassWarrior]

145. I think not taking a stand against abuse of power dimishes Democratic credibility.

We have an illegal war, torture, spying on American citizens, secret meetings and many more abuses perpetrated in the name of the "unitary dictator" to take issue with. These are real issues that call for a solution. Whether or not the Cheney** impeachment is going to happen, doing nothing in the face of his abuses makes us look silly. I would love to have all of the Administration impeached and removed but it is not going to happen unless we start somewhere. I resent your trivialization of justice and accountability. Those are my thoughts.

NGU.

[Yukari Yakumo]

149. I have to wonder about some of you...

How old are some of you? 10? 12?
One thing has been made clear to me, many of you do not know jack as to how Washington runs.

Impeachment is an absolute waste of time and effort. We will never have the votes. Get over it.

More so, Cheney & Bush is more valuable to us "alive" than "dead". Those two will provide us with almost a unlimited supply of ammo as '08 approaches. As long as those two twits sit in office, more Dems and fewer Rethugs will head to the polls in '08.

And with a Dem Congress, those two aren't running roughshod like they used to.

[sampsonblk]

152. Bullshit, losing mentality

nt

[ReadTomPaine]

157. "How old are some of you?" asks the person obsessed with the children's cartoon "Sailor Moon"

Assuming both a name and face from it no less. You aren't the only one doing the wondering about the maturity of some here. You could have at least selected some Miyazaki rather than nonsense about magic schoolgirls and talking cats.

It's hard to take realpolitik seriously from someone prancing around in the equivalent of a Spider-Man leotard.

[Forkboy]

162. LMAO

:rofl:

Glad I wasn't the only who noticed that. :)

[AtomicKitten]

150. I just want the bad people to go away.

I fully realize the Democrats have a lot on their plates what with America being upside down in a ditch on fire, but the Democrats also have a responsibility and would be remiss if they did not make this administration pay for their pile of felonies.

[Name removed]

173. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AtomicKitten]

176. we were discussing "how" not "if"

pay attention

[Senator]

151. Thought: I Hear Another Impeachophobe Expounding the "Ziskey Doctrine"

Russell Ziskey: "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it."

And just out of curiosity, what "solutions" are you expecting to come under "Rule By Signing Statement?"

It's the refusal to stand up to bushcheney that make the DC Dems look silly -- and weak -- and complicit with war crimes.

Kucinich is not distracting the electorate from that reality.

--

[enough already]

153. Bullshit

The solution to every one of those problems is impeachment. The White House needs an enema.

[knight_of_the_star]

158. I agree

That Kucinich did this made me lose a LOT of respect for him that he's willing to engage in some serious showboating to get attention and support while putting the credibility of the party's ability to get things done on the line. Which looks worse, us not impeaching Cheney or us doing so and FAILING in the Senate, cause I bet enough pubbies will back Cheney to keep him in office and use this to beat us up.

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MadHound]

160. Ah yes, pursuing justice does make one look so un-credible

After all, pursuing such justice would require the exhibition of a Democratic spine, something that we haven't seen for what, fifteen years now?

Justice is such a tacky thing these days, isn't it? Best not to pursue it, besides it might rebound on the Dems too:eyes:

I just love people who are willing to sacrifice justice, truth, and the lives of innocents on the alter of politics.:grr:

[mtnsnake]

163. To not impeach would be an unforgiveable crime worse than the criminals themselves

I don't know how anyone could ever sleep at night, knowing they had the opportunity to bring justice to the madmen and pissed it away for fear of political reprisal or whatever.

Once again, some politicians and people are letting their fears of the future dictate their lives instead of having the spine to do what's right.

...and long live Dennis Kucinich!!

[Oldenuff]

168. It should be real simple.

If there are impeachable offenses that were committed,and impeachment is not pursued,then not impeaching is the more heinous crime.

[Divine Discontent]

174. you tell em oldenuff

ignoring the breaking of the law, EVEN IF it deters some very high quality attention away from other issues, is important to at least discuss in Congress. And Kucinich shouldn't be "resent"ed for doing this - Cheney is a criminal. I understand if we're not going to get the votes, but it still needs addressed. Winning is very important, but sometimes, doing what's right is morally more important.

www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable <<-- check it out, top '08 stuff

[RetroLounge]

169. I think this argument removes yours completely...

:eyes:

RL

[polichick]

175. I don't want Cheney to live a life of luxury in Dubai...

They've already moved Halliburton there, making it almost impossible to hold the company accountable for its robbery of the American people ~ I'll bet Cheney high-tails it out of here as fast as he can too!