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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 10:49 PM
Original message
MoveOn.org Versus Its Members
By David Swanson

"A liberal is the kind of guy who walks out of a room when the argument turns into a fight." - Saul Alinsky

The Congress that was elected to end the war just voted to fund the war. Congresswoman Barbara Lee was not permitted to offer for a vote her amendment, which would have funded a withdrawal instead of the war. Groups that supported Lee's plan and opposed Pelosi's included United for Peace and Justice, Progressive Democrats of America, US Labor Against the War, After Downing Street, Democrats.com, Peace Action, Code Pink, Democracy Rising, True Majority, Gold Star Families for Peace, Military Families Speak Out, Backbone Campaign, Iraq Veterans Against the War, Voters for Peace, Veterans for Peace, the Green Party, and disgruntled former members of MoveOn.org.

True Majority was a late addition to the list. The organization polled its members. Did they favor the Pelosi bill to fund the war but include various toothless restrictions on it, or did they favor the Lee plan to use the power of the purse to end the war by the end of the year? Needless to say, True Majority's membership favored the Lee plan.

MoveOn polled its membership without including the Lee alternative, offering a choice of only Pelosi's plan or nothing. Amazingly, Eli Pariser of MoveOn has admitted that the reason MoveOn did this was because they knew that their members would favor the Lee amendment. The following is from a report on Salon.com:

"Pariser defends his e-mail. He says that the group already knew that its members would have supported Barbara Lee's plan, but whatever MoveOn did, it would never have passed. What MoveOn didn't know was what its members thought about the Pelosi plan. 'The choice that we needed to make as an organization was, Do we support this thing or not?' Pariser says. 'And so I think the e-mail was a very fair presentation of the choice that was actually in front of the organization.'"

Pariser is simultaneously admitting that he knew his members favored the Lee amendment to quickly end the war by defunding it, and claiming that he did not know whether his members preferred Pelosi's weak anti-war gestures to nothing at all. This makes no sense. Are we supposed to imagine that Pariser honestly believed there was some chance that his membership would read his praise for Pelosi's bill and then vote for nothing at all instead of supporting it? Of course not. The point of the poll was to allow MoveOn to announce that its membership supported Pelosi rather than Lee. Yet Pariser admits that he did not offer MoveOn's membership a choice of Lee's plan because he knew they would vote for it.

Actually, he doesn't say that he knows Lee's plan would have won out over Pelosi's. But he certainly does not know that it wouldn't have, and making that baseless and to my mind very unlikely claim was the only possible point of having done the poll. The rationale that Pariser offers is absurd. The poll could only have had one result. It served to give cover to progressive Democrats in Congress who gave their support to Pelosi after having intended to vote no on Pelosi's bill unless it included Lee's amendment.

Now, Pariser believes he knows better than MoveOn members what is good for them. He didn't let them make the supposed mistake of backing Lee rather than Pelosi, because Lee supposedly could never pass, while Pelosi could. There are three problems with this, other than the extreme arrogance and dishonesty. One is that, as Bob Fertik has pointed out http://www.democrats.com/moveon-explanation-1 , even if Lee's amendment did not pass, a vote for it would have helped to build war opposition in Congress, Pelosi's bill could have still passed too, and other amendments could still have been denied a vote.

The second problem is that we have no proof that Lee's amendment could not have been passed. A third of the Democrats have taken similar positions. The leadership could have brought another third on board. And relentless pressure and threats and bribes of the sort aimed at progressives could have brought many of the right-wing Democrats along. And if it had failed, and the Republicans and Republican-lite Democrats had voted down the bill, it would have been clear who stood where, and Pelosi could have announced victory and the end of the war. The Pentagon has more than enough money to safely bring our troops home right away without Congress passing any bill at all.

The third problem is that it is not at all clear that voting down Pelosi's bill would have been worse than passing it. She would have been forced to come back with another bill, as she will be if this one doesn't make it past the Senate, or Bush vetoes or signing statements it (well, she'll probably ignore a signing statement, but not a veto). But starting on bill #2 could have come more quickly and with more influence from the progressives if they had voted down the war funding bill.

Building a serious Out of Iraq caucus is key to getting us to another position that I suspect the majority of MoveOn members favor: the impeachment of Bush and Cheney. Of course, MoveOn has not polled its members on impeachment, but it won't do so apparently until impeachment proceedings are well underway and a successful vote for impeachment can be safely predicted. (Though at that point, what will be the point?)

But, how can we be sure that Pariser viewed his poll of MoveOn members on Pelosi's bill not as a contest between Pelosi and nothing, but as a contest between Pelosi and Lee? Well, because Pariser told the news journal the Politico just that:

"In the poll, MoveOn.org gave its members a choice of supporting, opposing or being 'not sure' of the plan proposed by the Democratic leadership, according to an e-mail sent to members Sunday by MoveOn.org official Eli Pariser. It did not mention a more aggressive withdrawal proposal backed by Woolsey, Waters and Rep. Barbara Lee (D-Calif.). Pariser said MoveOn.org had held out as long as possible before backing the leadership proposal. 'We were basically declining to take a position as long as we could to strengthen the hand of the progressives. We did the poll at the last time we felt we could have an impact on the final vote.' He said he would support the progressive proposal if it came to a vote. 'We'll encourage people to vote for that and for the supplemental,' he said. 'We are trying to end the war. That's the mandate.'

So, Pariser held off as long as possible to run a rigged poll and announce support for Pelosi's bill, in order not to actively work against the Lee Amendment. But working to support the Lee Amendment never crossed his mind, and he avoided asking his members about it because he knew they would favor it. But the progressives were not at that point pushing for a pretentious and meaningless vote on Lee followed by backing for Pelosi. They were pushing for a Yes vote on Lee and a No vote on Pelosi unless it included Lee.

If Pariser thought he knew so much about what was possible and what was not, why didn't he lay that case out to MoveOn's membership? Why didn't he offer the choice of backing Lee's position but make his argument that it would be futile? Did he not trust MoveOn members to make the right decision? That seems strange given the lines that can be found at the bottom of a MoveOn Email:

"Support our member-driven organization: MoveOn.org Political Action is entirely funded by our 3.2 million members. We have no corporate contributors, no foundation grants, no money from unions. Our tiny staff ensures that small contributions go a long way. If you'd like to support our work, you can give now at…."

Clearly MoveOn needs to work on distinguishing "member driven" from "member funded."
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. Members do not have to pass a litmus test.
Edited on Fri Mar-23-07 10:53 PM by Erika
They can choose to belong or not. It's called freedom.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. Move On is a great organization.
Edited on Fri Mar-23-07 11:17 PM by madfloridian
They have accomplished a lot. We take part in some actions, and some we don't. We donate fairly regularly to MoveOn, also to PFAW. We donate monthly to the DNC and DFA.

MoveOn is a powerful group. It is no more perfect than any other group.

It has done a lot of good.
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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Agree.
I liked the quote about a liberal walking out of the room rather than fighting. In my opinion, Pelosi and Murtha are the fighters. They fought for what is possible and they won. Bush lost. Get over it.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. They lost the peace community over this poll
Which could be no big deal to moveon. The vast majority of moveon members in my community are also peace activists. But maybe that isn't the case in other areas.

moveon also sent out emails to several thousand people in my community listing the wrong date for our Iraq anniversary rally. At first I thought it was a simple mistake. After trying to get a corrected email sent out, I no longer think so.

At any rate, moveon is gone from my email box. And after reading this article, by an author I DO trust, I am now sure I made the right decision.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Well, I strongly disagree with you.
I thought only right wing groups wanted to discredit MoveOn, but I was wrong.

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. We aren't trying to discredit moveon
Their poll did not reflect the peace community's views on Iraq. We aren't sheeple. Seems like we shouldn't have to explain that on DU.

moveon also sent out incorrect info about our Iraq anniversary rally to thousands of its members in this area. Read the other threads about moveon. They have played email games in other areas as well.

I don't believe in top down grassroots organizations. Actually that is an oxymoron.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Some on the left are trying to discredit MoveOn... AND Democrats
I may be an anti-war activist, but I am NOT going to tear down a group like Move-On.

Former posts by the OP attacking Howard Dean have given me reason to wonder why he goes after our side so much.

It seems like one progressive group is attacking another.

Read my posts here, and I do criticize Democrats. However, picking out a specific group or person to target is suspect.

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I can only hope moveon learned a lesson from this
Their actions lately have certainly not been very progressive.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. I disagree with your conclusion. I don't believe that the intention is to
Edited on Sat Mar-24-07 02:47 PM by John Q. Citizen
discredit MoveOn or the Dems.

I think the OP is criticizing the push poll, and I believe it is worthy of criticism.

I'm a MoveOn member. I think they have done a lot of good work.

However, when I got their "poll" in my in box, I was very surprised at the complete lack of choices offered to the members to vote on.

No where was the Kucinich bill HR1234 for instance, or any other alternative bills from Democrats offered as a possibility to vote on.

The sole choices were the Pelosi bill or the Republican bill, two possibilities that completely ignored the reality that there are other Democratic sponsored bills that members might prefer.

This warrants criticism because my first reaction was to feel insulted. The leadership was pretending to poll it's members when in reality it was attempting to manipulate the membership into ratifying the leadership choice of action.

I wrote them a letter about it and got a generic reply. It seems others feel the same way I do, and MoveOn had a clarification letter that explained their thinking and why they offered no choices. It still doesn't address my specific concerns, however it does tell me that the Leadership realizes they have a problem that members are writing them about.

And that's good, because maybe in the future they won't be so top down in there decision making process and actually allow their members more say to direct the agenda and the actual endorsement of legislation, candidates, and issues.

As a member, I would far prefer to keep the leadership focused on running a membership driven organization instead of leaving the critique up to the right wing. My critique and the freepers likely critique is probably completely different, and I believe the same applies to the OP in that his critique is to addressing the issue of membership participation in MoveOn and is not an attack on the members of MoveOn or their politics in the slightest.

As people we have to remember not to blindly follow our political heroes. We need to asses them on the whole of their experience and passion as humans. And this means we have to be willing to tell our friends straight up if we have a problem with something.

My conclusion is that in the leadership of MoveOn's zeal to get the Pelosi bill passed, they kind of short-cutted their own membership process to further that goal.That's not good, because as a member, I value the group aspect of deciding stuff like issues, candidates, and legislation.

This is entirely separate and apart from the question of whether that was the best choice, backing the Pelosi bill. In fact, from a legislative aspect it may well be. It also might not be. It will depend on what actually gets sent to bush in the end. This passage certainly strengthened Pelosi's position and it strengthened the hand of Woosley, Lee, some of the closest legislative friends to groups like Code Pink.

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anitar1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. MoveOn is gone from mine too. I knew a fix was in when I received
the e-mail asking for a vote about Pelosi bill. Less than 1500members voted out of 3.4 million members. That was in the news the next day.Just a tad too dishonest for my taste.No more dollars from me.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. Move On has done a lot of good
and I have sent money to them on that basis. I've hosted meetups, etc.

But they truly fucked up with that latest push-poll...

That doesn't mean that I've written them off. I don't believe in One Strike and You're Out bullshit.

But it DOES mean that they're going to have to do a hell of a lot of make-up work to get any more money from me any time soon...
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
3. What sucks is this is a large group
and can mobilize a lot of people. A good network and we need that. What sucks is the manipulation that occured here as in the end we are the group, not him and it should not be his call to make. If he wants to be a decider all by himself then he should make that clear.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Not as large anymore
LOL
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
7. Yes, this sucks. But this is an ironic sign that MoveOn.org has real power
If they were merely a protest group, there'd be no problem with them calling for a funding cut off. Lots of protest groups were doing that. Instead, the leaders of the "member-driven" organization saw the big picture. The Dems needed this show of unity. The rap on the new Congress is that they're long on investigations and short on viable solutions. Sure, cutting off funding is A solution, but it would be a PR disaster. In that one stroke the entire Republican base would be radically revitalized. Their appeal to voters would be ramped up. They would finally stand a fighting chance at a comeback in the 2008 elections.

Polls show people want the war ended. But then again, polls in 2003 showed that people wanted the war prosecuted. A leader has to look beyond a single day's polling results. A leader has to anticipate where today's choices will take the country two to five years down the road. The practical and political consequences of an impulsive defunding of the war are far grimmer than most protestors imagine.

Eli Pariser's choice was a cold and calculated manipulation. But by doing so, he kept MoveOn a player at the table.

Excellent article by the way.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. they lost me in nov '04
when they took a pass on election fraud.
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #10
30. "We bought it, we own it" was my breaking point.
I mean, I was disillusioned before that, thanks to some run-ins with people ineffectually registering voters after having been "trained" by MoveOn.org that summer, but the "we own it" crap was just vile.
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
12. Oh, What a Tangled Web of Whys
Can Immobilize Those Who Strategerize.

Sadly, most of the left will likely continue to scramble like rats in the Cut The Funding Maze.

But Only Impeachment is The Cheese.

It really is our panacea. It clarifies. It unifies. It energizes.

It is our ONLY moral, patriotic, effective option.

---
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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
13. ThOROUGHLY disgusting
but it's not like I haven't een disgusted with MoveOn before. Unfortunately, there is a "brand" of Dem activist in DC with not so much guts. Maybe they're just DLCers, or maybe they're just cowards. Or conservative (mealy-mouthed and unwilling to "offend") by nature. All I know is despite the GOOD that they do, they sure can be a regressive force for not very good.
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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
16. P.S.
Dear MoveOn member,

The results are in from our poll on whether to support Speaker Pelosi's
proposal on Iraq: 84.6% of MoveOn members voted to support the bill. 9.2%
said they weren't sure and 6.2% voted to oppose it.

This note from Ruel B. in California seems to sum up what most MoveOn
members feel: "I agree it may not go far enough, but it is a first step.
Hopefully, the first step on the road to getting out of Iraq."

<snip snip snip snip>

Thanks for all you do.

--Eli, Nita, Tom, Carrie and the MoveOn.org Political Action Team
Tuesday, March 20th, 2007

P.S. Some of you have asked whether we support the Lee Amendment, a
proposal that would accelerate the end of the war. Of course we do--we'd
love for the proposal to bring our troops home sooner, and MoveOn members
are pretty clear on that point. We've been fighting for as strong a bill
as possible. Right now, the Lee Amendment is not being offered, but if it
comes up, we'll definitely encourage Congress to vote for it.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. I got that email too
Edited on Sat Mar-24-07 06:18 PM by ProudDad
It was STILL a lame-ass 'poll' and beneath them...

But then wasn't MoveOn born out of the Clinton Senate Trial failure and therefore tied to the Dem power structure somewhat???
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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. They did screw up the poll,
Edited on Sat Mar-24-07 07:58 PM by guruoo
for sure. But look at all the good they've done up
until then. This is sooo much like what happened to truthout
over that Rove indictment feaupas.

The Republicans are laughing their asses off as they watch us self-destruct.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
17. I stand with MoveOn. Here is their detailed explanation.
Here is the stuff that gets lost when people of progressive groups tackle other groups on our side. Logic and common sense get lost.

http://pol.moveon.org/iraq/supplemental.html

Does the OP speak for PDA? Or for himself?

All of us are angry at this war. But most of us do have a little common sense about it. Trying to hurt groups like MoveOn is not going to benefit us.

Many of us here hold our Dems accountable. We write, we call, we try to be fair and see both sides.

http://pol.moveon.org/iraq/supplemental.html


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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Could simple jealousy be at the root of this MoveOn bashing?
Edited on Sat Mar-24-07 09:01 PM by guruoo
IMHO, this bashing has become too widespread to be merely about criticism of a poll.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MoveOn

MoveOn originally started in 1998 as a bipartisan email group. It petitioned Congress to "move on" past the ongoing impeachment proceedings of President Clinton. It later publicly condemned the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Since then, it has supported John Kerry, the Democratic nominee for the 2004 U.S. presidential election <1> and raised millions of dollars for many Democratic candidates.

MoveOn has created pressure within the Democratic Party for what the Washington Post calls "a vigorously liberal agenda" that goes "beyond simple opposition to the Bush administration." MoveOn founder Wes Boyd rejects the advice of "centrists" such as the Democratic Leadership Council who argue that "Democrats must moderate their positions on war, taxes, universal health care and other key issues." Speaking in June 2003 at a "Take Back America" conference, Boyd declared, "The primary way to build trust is to consistently fight for things that people care about." Grassroots America is ready to support a liberal agenda, he said, if only "someone will get out and lead. ... Every time we did something, every time we showed leadership, our membership went up." <2>

MoveOn.org was created by computer entrepreneurs Joan Blades and Wes Boyd, the married cofounders of Berkeley Systems. They started by passing around a petition asking Congress to "censure President Clinton and move on", as opposed to impeaching him. To the couple's surprise, the petition, passed around by word of mouth, was extremely successful -- ultimately, they had half a million signatures. Buoyed by their success, the couple went on to start similar campaigns, calling for more inspections rather than an invasion of Iraq (see Popular opposition to war on Iraq); the reinstatement of lower limits on arsenic and mercury pollution, and campaign finance reform.

on edit: added below, clarified subject line

Financial contributors

* The San Francisco Foundation Community Initiative Funds, a 501(c)(3) organization affiliated with the San Francisco Foundation, began serving as a fiscal sponsor for MoveOn in 2000, providing a channel through which individuals can make directed, tax-exempt donations to support its work. In 2001, SFFCIF's IRS Form 990 (available from GuideStar.org) show that it provided MoveOn with $17,698 in funding.
* Iraq Peace Fund, an effort of the Tides Foundation
* Richard & Rhoda Goldman Fund

* MoveOn's spending as an advocacy group is listed at Open Secrets: Advocacy Group Spending ("data is based on records released by the Internal Revenue Service on Monday, October 23, 2006").

* According to the March 10, 2004, Washington Post, "The Democratic 527 organizations have drawn support from some wealthy liberals determined to defeat Bush. They include financier George Soros who gave $1.46 million to MoveOn.org (in the form of matching funds to recruit additional small donors); Peter B. Lewis, chief executive of the Progressive Corp., who gave $500,000 to MoveOn; and Linda Pritzker, of the Hyatt hotel family, and her Sustainable World Corp., who gave $4 million to the joint fundraising committee." <20>
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Yes, it is about far more than just a poll. Far more.
I am checking on some other articles I have seen lately. Tired this week-end, so it will take time.

It is the groups apparently who are "out now", no compromise. It appears to be coming from the groups that are for pure anti-war out now.

I have several articles collected, but not much else right now. And MoveOn I think got funding from other sources as well.

MoveOn, like DFA, is not especially a "liberal" group....it is an "activist" group. Some of the ones who are attacking MoveOn are the ones who viciously attacked Dean for not saying "out now." He can't cross congress on this, he has said so. And he always said once we were there it would be hard to get out.

But no, these groups don't go after the Democrats who voted us into Iraq, or the Republicans. They go after a group like MoveOn which does great things.

I have posted several concerns about how we got into Iraq and how I fear that we won't get out because of some powerful Democrats. So I am not for staying in Iraq. But fair is fair.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1220

This is an organized effort. As you can see from my post I have great reservations about some in the party...but I do try to see both sides. I doubt we are ever leaving Iraq.

I will post more on this effort to smear MoveOn when I get more organized. My company this week was tiring.



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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Yeah, end a war, but lose America in the process
Edited on Sat Mar-24-07 11:01 PM by guruoo


Karl sez: 'Thanks for the 100 year Reich, suckers!'
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
29. Thank you
I agree wholeheartedly with MoveOn.

The Lee Amendment has a rat's butt's chance in hell of passing. The Supplemental passed. I would assume that those who are against and voted against the Supplemental are not very much for real results but for political theater that gets us nowhere...kind of like someone's campaign...or they have problems understanding basic concepts of congressional legislation.






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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Nonsense. I could just as well call the Pelosi Bill "political theatre"
since it ain't going nowhere and won't do much of anything. Demanding that ordinary citizens understand the labyrinthine maneuverings of the Congressional dance is ridiculous. How many people do you think have the time or energy to figure that out? It's the job of citizens to make plain what they want of Congress. Period.

And Moveon is either an honest, member-driven grass-roots organization or it is a top-down follow-the-leader organization. In this instance, it seems to have not only been the latter but to have been dishonest and manipulative about it.

Congress will only go as far as the citizenry pushes it - including the Democrats. If we want OUT it is our job to say we want OUT, if we want to defund the war it is our job to say so. We may not get it the first time around, but we'll never get it, never get a clear repudiation of war for profit and imperialist global domination if we don't demand it.

Seems to me that Moveon's role was to actually ascertain what it's members wanted, then to support that, regardless of it's "chance of passage." It will never "pass" unless there is enough pressure.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. OK...then let's design a plane that doesn't fly
That's what Kucinich offers...that's what MoveOn is against...


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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Bad Analogy. THIS plane doesn't fly either, so no contrast. (n/t)
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
23. They lost me over this.
Their goals and beliefs are too far to the right for me at this point.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
25. Fox Morning Show trying to demonize MoveOn
Where's Doocy getting his info? I will post more in a minute about a good thing MoveOn is doing which needs our support. They are suing Viacom over removal of a video from You Tube.

http://www.newshounds.us/2007/03/21/fox_morning_show_trying_to_demonize_moveonorg.php

"The power of the netroots must be terrifying for powerful interests in America. Why else would the Fox News morning show spend so much time trying to demonize Moveon.org? With video.

The co-hosts of "Fox and Friends" on Wednesday (March 21, 2007) brought up the influence of Moveon.org at least twice during its two-hour show, implying that the network of grassroots citizens is something to be feared. In an interview with disgraced former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, co-host Steve Doocy asked DeLay, "How much power does Moveon.org have over the Demcorats right now?"

"A tremendous amount of power ... I know the huge political coalition that they have put together. Moveon.org is the big money people that passes the money around and the Democrats know that and they have a great influence over their base," DeLay said.

The question to DeLay, part of a wide-ranging suck-up interview, came after a segment in which the three stooges of news hashed over amongst themselves the extent of Moveon's influence.

Doocy implied that the support of Moveon.org helped prompt Democratic leaders to move on a bill funding George Bush's request for $100 billion more to fund the Iraq war. "Not only is moveon.org behind the bill because they say if the bill is voted down, Republicans win," but "money is changing hands to get some votes," said Doocy."

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. MoveOn files suit against Viacom. I intend to donate to help them.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/03/23/BUGBROQ9H31.DTL

MoveOn.org files suit against Viacom over online video
Activist group says parody media giant asked YouTube to remove is protected

"The continuing war over who controls content on the Internet continued Thursday with reaction to a federal lawsuit by the Internet political group Move-On.org against media behemoth Viacom that opposes the removal of an online video parody of a television parody.

The legal tussle shows what an imperfect and chaotic system exists for determining copyright law in the Internet Age, especially when it comes to removing online content that may -- or may not -- be illegally pilfered from content owners.

The roots of the skirmish began in summer when Move-On.org and entertainment distributor Brave New Films posted a video called "Stop the Falsiness" on YouTube. They created the short video to promote the appearance of one of MoveOn.org's organizers on the satirical Comedy Central program "The Colbert Report." MoveOn.org included snippets from "The Colbert Report" in its video to skewer what it sees as the conservative bent of the Fox News Channel, which host Stephen Colbert lampoons on his nightly show."

..." But MoveOn.org and video co-creator Brave New Films alleged in a federal lawsuit filed late Wednesday that the video is protected under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998, because it does more than post snippets from a television program: It "mashes them up" into something new, mixing original content with copyrighted material from "The Colbert Report." Even Viacom agreed with that contention Thursday -- nudged by a quick-strike media blitz by MoveOn.org and the federal lawsuit it left on Viacom's doorstep."

Good for them.



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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
27. MoveOn organized protests against the war. They do a lot of good things.
http://media.www.dailycampus.com/media/storage/paper340/news/2007/03/20/News/moveon.Out.Of.Iraq-2782668.shtml

"As the temperature dropped and snow began to fall Monday, most students were scuttling from building to building while 20 dedicated activists braved the cold to take a stand on the Iraq War.

"No More Iraq War," declared the sign painted in bold letters on a bed sheet.

The protest, which took place on the corner of Route 195 and North Eagleville Road in front of Storrs Congregational Church, was one of over 1,800 anti-Iraq War protests across the country Monday, according to Amy Courchesne and Patti Parlette, members of Connecticut Opposes the War (COW). The network of protests was organized by the political activist group MoveOn.org to mark the fourth anniversary of the invasion of Iraq. MoveOn.org is an organization promoting political activity among Americans that are often over looked in the political process. According to the group's Web site, they aim to "bring real Americans back into the political process."

The Storrs branch of the nation wide protest was organized by MoveOn.org through Doug Snyder, a prospective graduate student currently employed by UConn as a math tutor. Snyder and several of the other protestors were representatives of the Society of Friends, also known as Quakers. According to Snyder, the Society of Friends are pacifists. Snyder held a sign proclaiming, "Don't Give War A Chance," featuring large photos of U.S. soldiers in Iraq, Iraqi civilians and a portrait of John Lennon in honor of the twist on his famous Vietnam War protest song 'Give Peace a Chance.' "
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