"Dean's Tax Incentives Raise Doubts" by Sarah Schweitzer, Boston Globe

[flpoljunkie]

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2003/12/27/audit_raises_doubts_on_deans_tax_incentives?mode=PF

Audit raises doubts on Dean's tax incentives

By Sarah Schweitzer, Globe Staff, 12/27/2003

As governor of Vermont, Howard Dean presided over the creation of a program that authorized $80.1 million in corporate tax credits without verifying that many of the companies had made good on promises to bring new jobs and investments to Vermont, according to a report by the state auditor's office.

The report found that the Vermont Economic Progress Council, the Dean-appointed nine-member body charged with administering the tax-credit program, relied heavily on companies' claims that they were considering bypassing Vermont for their business and needed the credits as incentives. The report also found that the Department of Taxes never checked to make sure that companies followed through on their promises until the Legislature stepped in and required it to do so.

The goal of the program, begun in 1998 and similar to ones put in place by other states, was to lure new firms to Vermont or to ensure that existing ones expanded in Vermont and not in other states. The 2003 state auditor's report found it was likely that some of the 113 expansion or building projects that received credits would have taken place without the enticement.

As such, the report concluded, the credits had probably cost the state more money than they had brought in and had contributed to a 44 percent decline in corporate tax receipts, from $57 million to $32 million, between fiscal years 1999 and 2002. The report also noted that applications for the credits were kept secret.

...more...

[AP]

1. Many of the candidates have established their personas well enough

so that you can predict what they'd do and what they've done without having to be told.

For example, I know that Edwards is going to do what's right for the middle class and the working man and woman to ensure that they're going to be able to increase their wealth and political power.

I know Lieberman is going to be the farthest to the right on national security.

I know Kucinich is going to be the farthest to the left on everything.

And I know Dean is going to be the guy handing out tax breaks and tax revenue to big businesses whether they need it or not.

[BootinUp]

2. Interesting

what is your opinion of Clark?

[AP]

4. I like Clark,

but I think he has just as much of the McGovern problem as Dean. McGovern's entire persona was wrapped up in Vietnma. Nixon roped the dope -- he got the Democrats to swing wildly at Vietnam to the degree that the Dems -- McGovern -- ran only on being anti-Vietnam. When the GE rolled around, Nixon removed Vietnam as the major concern of Americans by saying that he was ending the draft and was going to pull out troops. There went McGovern's raison d'etre right out the window.

Dean, in addition to being reliably business friendly, is the anti-Iraq War candidate. If he's nominated, you can count on Bush pulling a Nixon in Iraq and making a Dean candidacy irrelevant.

Clark's persona to me is the guy who's going to behave responsibly viz Iraq. So he's at the other end of the spectrum Dean's on. He's the guy who is going ot keep America safe. So how's Bush going to deal with that? Well, although they'd love to use fear to get Americans to vote for the fascists, if Clark is the nominee they'll jettison the Iraq War simply to remove Clark's raison d'etre.

[SahaleArm]

9. Actually Clark isn't playing the anti-iraq angle

He's playing the how to exit Iraq angle but more importantly the where is Osama angle? Now of course if Bush pulls Osama out of a hole and the economic numbers look good then Clark would have problems; of course who wouldn't?

[AP]

10. That's my point.

If Clark defines himself according to how to exit Iraq, what do you want to be Bush will simply exit Iraq (or promise to exit Iraq)?

[SahaleArm]

12. His diversification will be key...

Clark's current southern state tour is about the economy; which makes sense since this election will be about two things, National Security (Iraq and Osama) and the Economy. From a Bush political standpoint, an Iraq pullout without a stable government would be worse than staying there. It's a dangerous political game should Rove decide to play it.

[AP]

15. How 'bout another thread?

Wouldnt' want to distract from the discussion about Dean's big business friendliness.

However, a brief note: I may be wrong, but Clark could walk around with a slide rule sticking out of his breast pocket, and he'd still be a general walking around with a slide rule sticking out of his pocket. I know he's trying to diversify, but I'll tell you right now, in the eyes of voters he will always be GENERAL Clark.

[SahaleArm]

16. Another thread would be better...

The point you make in your post below is true for most elections, but circumstances often dicatate the election. Reagon won in 1980 for the same reasons that McGovern lost in 1972.

[AP]

31. Reagan won because Republicans did a deal

with Iran to prevent hostages from being released.

They were in total control of the issues upon which they ran.

Just as they are in total control of terror and the Iraq war.

[BootinUp]

11. But there will still be terra

They won't be able to jettison the war on terror, quite so easily. And Clark can take them to task on their silly plan to start a war against Iraq and lay out a real plan to deal with terrorism. There will be a cost associated with short circuiting Iraq as well. And again it relates to terrorism. Not leaving Iraq stable will be appearing weak on terror.

thoughts?

[AP]

13. Perhaps another thread would be the appropriate place to discuss this

However, I'll say here that terra isn't something that exists free floating for Republicans. it's a spigot they turn on and off. If a Democrat ran only on terra, they'd turn off that spigot and turn on some spigot that worked for them.

Although I agree that they'll have a strategy for every candidate, I also FIRMLY believe that Democrats aren't great because of what they stand against. They're great for what they stand for. They are defined by what they stand for, and not by what Bush is.

Candidates like Dean and Clark wouldn't exist but for Bush. They are overly defined by Bush, and thus, it would be easy for the Republians to pull the carpet out from under their feat. Clark is actually the better of the two, becuase he brings into question the very foundations of the Republican identiy and draws out the chicken hawk reality of Republicans in America, and I'd feel much more confident of victory with him.

But I still feel that the best candidate is the one who, no matter who the opponent was, or what the mood Republicans created was, would still create a compelling argument for their candidacy, as defined by what's inside the candidate, rather than as a reaction to the circumstances created by Republicans.

As was the problem with McGovern, when you define yourself according to things created by your oppositon, you're like a marrionette on strings, and your opposition can cut those strings whenever they please (usually in October).

[TeacherCreature]

3. yeahsureright

You might want to research the differences between being a good overnor and a good senator. You might find that the requirements to run a state as opposed to voting for legislation are very different. This situation in VT is no different than any other state. You bring jobs so that people can eat and pay their mortgage. Sometimes the companies stay, but most of the time they do not. Dean has talked about changing the rules to keep jobs from going overseas. (Has Edwards?) but as governor his job was to bring jobs to the state and he did that. You will find that all democratic party governors are in the same situation.

[AP]

7. I'm sure Dean would have done the same stuff as a senator.

See, that's how that persona stuff works.

And how does it help to do a business like Enron favors? They got so many legislated favors they decided to take the money and run, leaving pension holders and the little guys holding the bag. How did that help any states create jobs, or take people off the dole?

Governors still have to care about responsible growth. Dean would have gotten way more bang for the buck building up small businesses, then building useless roads for IBM only to see them bugger off to the next state willing to give them huge tax breaks.

Furthermore, have you seen the regressivity in the VT property tax code? What do you want to bet that some of that is due to the fact that Dean probably gave VT's wealthiest citizens -- big businesses -- property tax breaks to lure them to the state? How does that kind of tax code regressivity help the state? I have a feeling that it doesn't really.

[TeacherCreature]

18. yeah and again look at the policy of other state and what is happening

there. You will find that all the states are in the same boat. BTW, you talk a lot about what you imagine or "feel" would happen. How about sticking to the facts. I am sure you have access to google. I don't "feel" I need to find those facts for you.

[AP]

28. How 'bout a state like Arkansas?

Clinton didn't hand Arkansas over to Wall Street.

In fact, he did the opposite. He broke Stephens Inc's monopoly on issuing state bonds. It saved the state millions, and stopped the transfer of tax money to the already wealthy. It aslo earned him the wrath of Republicans.

Dean could learn a few lessons from that kind of Democrat.

[BootinUp]

35. You mean they didn't just hate him

for his penis?

Imagine that.

[HFishbine]

25. Of course Edwards

never had a hand in sending taxpayer money to big businesses who didn't need it. Riiiiggghhhtt...

[AP]

27. Every time you write this,

you have to expect me to ask you what you're talking about, so why don't we just start cutting out the middle post, and you cite your allegations when you make them?

[HFishbine]

37. Are you telling me

that you are uninformed about the candidate you support, or do you honestly think my allegations are unfounded? Do you really think that, as a senator, Edwards never once cast a vote that funnelled taxpayer money to big business?

(You might consider that as a Dean supporter, I'm walking a fine line. I have an interest in defending my candidate against all challengers, but since I think there is a better than 50/50 chance Edwards will be the VP nominee, I don't want to go beyond what is necessary.)

[AP]

47. I don't "think" the allegations are unfounded. They are, in fact,

unfounded by you every time you make them, as you did again in the post to which I'm responding.

[HFishbine]

49. Sigh

Edwards accepts campaign contributions from lobbying firm for FedEx.

Edwards votes to give $125 million for construction of new runway and sorting hub for FedEx (a highly profitable big business, BTW).

Didn't want to. You made me.

http://www.opensecrets.org/lobbyists/lobbyist.asp?ID=98718&year=2000

http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.asp?CID=N00002283&cycle=2000

http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.asp?CID=N00002283&cycle=2002

[AP]

50. What is nefarious about this? You're going to have to spin this out

a little more.

I'm not sure what the allegation of evil doing is here.

Can you give me a little more back story.

[HFishbine]

52. Now you're putting words in my mouth

"Nefarious?" Who said? "Evil doing?" Who said?

This discussion started when you asserted (also without substantiation) that Edwards would fight for the little guy while Dean would "...be the guy handing out tax breaks and tax revenue to big businesses whether they need it or not."

I then posted that Edwards has in fact handed out taxpayer money to big businesses who didn't need it. You challenged me to prove that point. I have.

[AP]

55. Little guys want jobs in NC. People who want quiet skies don't want jobs.

Expaning airports is practically invetible. If they don't do it now, they'll have to do it in 25 years. If they do it now, they can draw a FedEx hub. Dean was legislating profits for uncompetitive industries doing crappy things to state economies, and giving away tax breaks in the process, shifting the tax burden off the wealthiest citizens (including, corporations).

[AP]

51. Hard time finding the scandal here.

But for anyone who cares, here's the latest on this story:

People who want jobs want the FedEx hub. People who don't want the noise don't want the hub, and they're fighting it out in court, and it looks like everything is going fairly.

I'd be surprised if ANY Senator from NC would have voted against a bill appropriating Federal money for the hub, given the jobs angle.

Furthermore, note that these aren't donations to his presidential race.

http://www.news-record.com/news/local/fedex_122303.htm

[HFishbine]

53. You just made the point

A senator votes to give money (not tax incentives, but $$$) to a profitable company to bring business to his state. A governor uses tax incentives to attract jobs to his state. You've made the point that the difference between Dean and Edwards on this issue is moot.

I guess one difference does remain. I've seen no evidence that Dean accepted money from the lobbyists representing the businesses, while Edwards plainly did.

[AP]

54. Dean accepted 100K+ last Feb from Energy execs for whom he did dereg

favors! He went to them FIRST to get seed money.

Re Edwards, can we at least get a cite to the vote? And this isn't money that Fed Ex got. It's money that went to expanding an airport I presume is owned by the county, and people who want jobs in NC want it, while people who want silence oppose it.

The people who oppose deregulation of the energy companies oppose it because it's bad for the economy, does nothing for jobs, and gives private companies guaranteed profits.

So, uhm, back to the drawing board for you.

[Raya]

46. Dean NOT CREDIBLE in National Security, Now not credible in DOMESTIC

How can Dean critisize Bush. His attitude to Big Biz in Vermont is
same as Bush's for the Country.

[maddezmom]

5. this is troubling

<<Liberals in the Legislature -- including Ready, now the auditor -- vehemently opposed what they deemed corporate handouts and lambasted the mechanics of the law, which permitted companies to submit confidential applications, limiting public scrutiny of the basis for credit approvals.>>>

if everything was above board, why all the secrecy?

[AP]

8. Oops. There's that word 'confidential.' Makes you wonder if someone might

have admitted they were gay in some of those confidential requests for tax breaks. Perhaps Dean has those requests under seal right now. I wonder if this is what his buddy the Attorney General is fighting to keep under wraps.

[stickdog]

41. Because VT has a large number of radically liberal inhabitants.

You know, the socialists that are always being quoted here like they represent mainstream political thinking?

[Jerseycoa]

6. This has gotta smart

"As such, the report concluded, the credits had probably cost the state more money than they had brought in and had contributed to a 44 percent decline in corporate tax receipts, from $57 million to $32 million, between fiscal years 1999 and 2002"

[libview]

14. Hey, does anybody know where.....

I can get that great picture of Dean playing the guitar?
HeeHee....

[AP]

17. Is that the one where he's playing Sympathy for the Devil?

Please allow Joe Trippi to introduce me,
I'm a man of wealth and rolled up sleeves
I've been around for a long long years
But I've got a whole new set of policies

I changed my position on Jesus Christ
I had a moment of change of mind
Made damn sure that Kerry
Washed his hands and sealed his fate

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what’s puzzling you
Is the nature of my game

I stuck around Burlington
When I saw it was a time for a change
Want to kill Republicans like Aschcroft
The Bush twins will scream in vain

I didn't ride a tank
Didn't have a general’s rank
Skied in Aspen when the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name, oh yeah
Ah, what’s puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah

I watched with glee
While Skilling and Lay
Proffitted for a decade
On the markets we made

I shouted out,
Boolah boolah!
When after all
It was me
(who who, who who)

Let Trippi introduce myself
I’m a man of wealth and rolled up sleeves
And I laid traps for troubadours
Who get killed before they reached DC

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But what’s puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah, get down, baby

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But what’s confusing you
Is just the nature of my game

Just as every Democrat is a Republican
And all the Libertarians saints
As heads is tails
Just call me Wellstone
’cause I’m in need of some restraint

So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Ignore all your well-learned politics
And I’ll lay your soul to waste, um yeah

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, um yeah
But what’s puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, um mean it, get down

Tell me baby, what’s my name
Tell me honey, can ya guess my name
Tell me baby, what’s my name
I tell you one time, you’re to blame

[TeacherCreature]

19. I am sure it is painful to be an Edwards supporter

at this point it is looking like everyone was right. He is not ready for primetime. However that is really no reason to lash out at those who have a chance to take back the whitehouse from bush.

[libview]

21. Oh yeah, sure. Deans the man to take back the whitehouse

He's an idiot, all negitive all the time.
He has a chance to throw the Democratic party into oblivion, that's about it. He needs to be STOPPED!!

[AP]

29. being an Edwards supporter gives me hope.

And I never get that sick-to-my-stomach feeling that people must get when their candidate does things that make you wonder if he's really a democrat.

[windansea]

38. freaking awesome!!

you should start a thread with that so more can see it

you're a poet and you know it

[AP]

48. Mick Jagger deserves the credit.

I didn't have to change much to make that song totally about Dean.

[TeacherCreature]

20. Actually Senators Kerry, Lieberman and Edwards are more responsible

for this problem than Dean. Don't blame the Governors, they must bring jobs to their state. It is the gutless wonders in the senate and congress who allow this to happen. They need to legislate responsible corporate behavior. Until they do, governors have no choice but to compete for the corporations to come to their state rather than the state next door. People need jobs.

[libview]

22. What do you know, you don't even have the picture of

Rock and Roll Dean playing the gituar. I bet he doesn't even know how to play.

[Tom Rinaldo]

23. Dean supporters

There is no way to simply dismiss accusations against your candidate as unfair without doing the hard, tedious, research oriented debunking work that goes with the territory. I am writing this from a perspective that Dean can probably very well defend his record in Vermont. Afterall, he kept getting reelected. I know from my own experience defending Wesley Clark that they just keep coming at you. Increasingly the "they" coming at Dean now is the media. Lord knows I've been through that grinder with media dismissals of my candidate. Dean is the frontrunner, and the public is finally interested in the race, so now the media can act important and get noticed by doing exposes on the frontrunner.

I spent hours last night on a DU thread debunking claims that Clark is pro PNAC. It is very tedious work, and someone will always have some newspaper article to throw in your face. Reporters aren't God, they just get to act like him/her. The main point is this, and I have seen it expressed by others as well. Democrats fighting each other in the Primaries is just Spring Training. The real attacks start when Bush starts spending his 200 million and officially unleashs Rowe's atttack hounds. It doesn't help to be pissed off at all the charges directed at Dean. They will keep coming no matter what you feel. The better prepared you get for them now the easier it will be later. I acknowledge the irony of using a military metaphor, but it is a standard military tactic to send out probes to draw enemy fire so that you can pin down in advance the positions the enemy will use against you during full scale combat. That's what's going on for Dean right now. You just have to weather this storm and use the information that is revealed by the attacks to your ultimate advantage in being prepared and plotting strategy for the Fall, if Dean gets the nomination.

[eileen from OH]

24. Right you are, Tom

And I say this as a Dean supporter. Basically, it's a better-get-it-out-of-the-way-now kinda thing, cuz it sure-as-shit will come up in the GE. Just yelling about it ain't gonna make it go away and I prefer to hear an explanation from the candidate in the context of what his job description was at the time.

My patience is tried by finding anything-remotely-Dean-negative posted again and again, with slightly different wording, as if we-are-too-damn-stupid to get the point the first umpteenth time around.

BTW, I've never really paid to much attention to the names of people who post - really read for content, rather than who-said-it. That has changed and I now can identify the "usual suspects" in some threads. For ALL the candidates.

You, Tom, are without a doubt my favorite Clark supporter, a real reasonable guy, and I enjoy your postings a lot.

eileen-from-OH (couldn't resist a few more hyphens)

[stickdog]

43. Listen up. The average voter LIKES a governor who tries to lure jobs to

his state.

Most Dean supporters are just average voters you want their country back. We don't want corporations ruling our lives, but we don't mind if they open up shop down the block, even if the mayor had to sweeten the deal a little to keep them from relocating in Little Rock or Bombay. Hence, this is an non-issue and will be treated as such.

[Myra]

57. Nicely said Tom.

Thanks.

[w4rma]

26. All state executives do this to lure corporations into their state.

Unfortunately our system allows big buisnesses to shop around between states to find the one that will give them the most. Either the governor plays the game, or the buisness leaves the state. Only the U.S. Congress and the President can change this system.

Dean, unlike the other candidates, has talked about re-regulating industries that need it in the light of the Enron energy scandals, Enron accounting scandals and other scandals that have appeared due to lack of governmental oversight. This will help the situation.

[maddezmom]

32. but why all the secrecy?

<<The report also noted that applications for the credits were kept secret.>>

Are all Governors keeping applications secret? This part is troubling to me.

[stickdog]

44. Because VT is about 15% radical socialist/Green.

Now do you get it?

[AP]

33. clearly they don't. VT attracted captives because no

other state was willing to cut the insurance industry the deal Dean was willing to cut.

[KaraokeKarlton]

34. People look at stories like this and assume they know what it means

Bottom line, unless you live in that state and know the whole story behind things like this, you either get the whole story or you mind your own business.

Vermont's environmental standards are tougher than kyoto. Rabid environmentalists like Annette Smith try to chase every new business out of the state before they even set up. Vermonters need jobs just like everyone else. We border a state that doesn't have any sales tax or state income tax. In order to attract businesses Vermont HAS to compete with the reality of our situation...and that's all this is about.

Sure, it would have been better to follow up...but that costs money that would probably have to be taken out of social services programs. On top of that, there's no evidence that a lack of following up on these businesses cost the state anything. Putting funds into investigating most certainly would have cost a lot.

[KaraokeKarlton]

30. The budget was always balanced and our social services are great

which makes what you posted a non-issue.

Vermont is in better shape than all the other candidates' states are. We had a $10 million surplus this year and 1/3 of our seniors already have a REAL prescription drug benefit. Howard Dean is well ahead of the curve.

Your point was?

[mouse7]

36. Looks like more of an enforcement issue

The reporter is claiming these companies were using breaks for already planned/needed expansion. That issue seems to be an issue of tax enforcement, not tax policy. If so, then one has to ask if a Governor would be considered micromanaging if he's looking over the shoulder of his tax enforcement personel as eligibility would be a case-by-case issue.

If there is an enforcement problem, the issue would eventually come to the Governor's desk if the problem is a consistant one. However, it wouldn't come to the Governor's desk until the pattern was established. It takes a bit for that to happen.

[stickdog]

39. Dean tried to lure corporate business to sleepy Vermont.

Let's hang him.

[dsc]

40. Sarah is up to her old tricks again, I see

Sarah wrote this.

As such, the report concluded, the credits had probably cost the state more money than they had brought in and had contributed to a 44 percent decline in corporate tax receipts, from $57 million to $32 million, between fiscal years 1999 and 2002.

This is what the report actually said. pg 23 of report pg 25 of file

www.state.vt.us/sao/reviews/eatireview.pdf


Economists attribute the decline to a
number of factors, including lower corporate
profits, increased use of tax loopholes;
lower effective state tax rates; the
increasing prevalence of state corporate
income tax credits and related incentives;
and, the increased use of S Corporations
and other pass-through entities, which
have reallocated some corporate income
to personal income.

This is what the author actually said.

http://www.rutlandherald.com/News/Story/60147.html

Ready’s report also said that the tax credits are contributing to Vermont’s decline in the corporate income tax as a revenue source. “While not all or even most of that decline is attributable to the tax credits, we do think that it’s a significant issue to be looking at,” she said.

In fairness, this doesn't rise to the lies she told on Christmas. What she said here was technically true. But was it honest? Did it leave you with an honest impression of Ms. Ready thought? Shouldn't that be the standard an objective reporter strives for? Ms. Ready certainly believes this program led to a loss in taxes (though her own report makes clear she can't know that) but by no means did she think it was the major contributer that Sarah wants you to believe she did. Sarah spun hard here.

It gets worse. Sarah wrote this.

Basically, they gave away state money in secret," Dean Corren -- a former state representative, a member of the Progressive Party, and a vocal critic of the program -- said in an interview.

Now, even without a citation I will assume that such an interview exists and that this man said exactly what Sarah says he said. Did he tell the truth?

Evidently not

http://www.act60.org/taxcredits.htm

Listed below are the tax incentives awarded by the Vermont Economic Progress Council during the period between October 1998 and December 17, 1999. Data are reproduced from a report prepared by the Vermont Economic Progress Council.

If you go to the link you will find a chart which lists the tax breaks given out by this supposedly secret council. This took me one, count it one, google search to find. Mr. Corren lied to Sarah's face and Sarah was to lazy to bother to check and thus transcribed the lie to you. This took me one, count it one, google search and it wasn't even to verify this but to try to find the report. Sarah was either lazy here or willfully lazy here. Either case she was a scribe for a liar. Which makes her story lying hearsay.

If I am able to find the 2000 report I will see what else I can do but for now this is what I found in a little bit of searching. In the future, Sarah needs to be known as the lousy source she is.

[killbotfactory]

42. Save this for future use

I just get the strange feeling this article will be reposted... and reposted... and reposted... and reposted...

Call it a hunch.

[dsc]

45. Oh yes

don't worry this will be saved have no doubts on that.

[wyldwolf]

56. Info carried over from the last thread on Dean

Interesting searches:

Howard Dean William Sorrell

and...

Howard Dean William Sorrel

(same search, minus the extra "L")


Don't forget to check in here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=32582&mesg_id=32582