*****Official House Debate on Iraq War Thread 4******

[quiet.american]

Streaming:

C-SPAN.ORG
http://www.c-span.org/watch/cspan_rm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS

Thread 1:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3110739&mesg_id=3110739

Thread 2:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3110847&mesg_id=3110847

Thread 3:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3111015&mesg_id=3111015

[POAS]

1. Peter King invoking Lieberman...perfect!

[Eurobabe]

4. King invoking polls from 1952

like Bush will ever be remembered as one of the greatest President. King is such a Blowhard!

[rodeodance]

51. two little pee pee turds.

[karlrschneider]

2. Links to 1 & 2 aren't working

...

[quiet.american]

3. Thanks -- fixed. n/t

[gratefultobelib]

5. What King is proposing as "victory" in Iraq would take decades, if ever!! C'mon!

[Eurobabe]

7. Don't question, just lay down the kids and obey the

Chimp in Charge. Enemy is scheming everyday for ways to attack us, FEAR < FEAR

What a maroon!

[Bobbie Jo]

6. Why are Dems allowing them to widen this debate?

It's about the SURGE. Yes or No. Nail'em on it!

[quiet.american]

10. Good question. I think the new majority is still finding its legs. n/t

[POAS]

23. The debate is still on

the resolution but the congressman can use their 5 minutes anyway they choose, even to spout nonsense!

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

8. Rec ommend

I figured out if I only selected "Listen" not "View" I can hear CSPAN. Thanks for htis thread so I can tell who is speaking

[quiet.american]

9. Assclown King is so way off the charts.

Congress did not authorize Bush to wage a pre-emptive aggressive war against another sovereign nation for the purpose of carrying out the PNAC wet dream of transforming the Middle East. Peter King is waging an argument against a fantasy reality.

[tblue]

13. Huh? Whuh? Oh, he's finished? Good, now I can wake up.

[The Wizard]

127. King

is one of the worst Congressmen in DC, and really nothing more than a Bush sycophant. The look in his eye indicates he longs to be sodomized with the Washington Monument. This bonehead chaired the Committee on Homeland Security. That should make everyone feel more secure. It will take generations to undo the damage King and his ilk have done to our country.

[Old and In the Way]

11. So far, the Republicans' arguments are pretty weak.

They are really floundering on ambiguous talking points. What is "winning"...what is "victory"? They can't define that because these labels are meaningless. We can't "win" in Iraq, we can only decide the magnitude of our losses.

[gratefultobelib]

12. Well, of COURSE Gen Patraeus says it CAN work. What else would you expect him to say if asked?

[Eurobabe]

14. Conyers, Korean War vet up now...

[tblue]

15. And now....the love of my life.....John Conyers!!!

[quiet.american]

19. Yes -- "Enough is enough. Stop ignoring the American people."

"Stop wasting American lives and resources on this disaster and unnecessary conflict. The escalation must be stopped. Cannot let momentum against war subside. Priority must be to end war."

[quiet.american]

16. One more recommend anyone? Then people will be able to find this thread.

[aquart]

18. Done.

[quiet.american]

20. Thanks. n/t

[AndyA]

17. John Conyers has a very forceful manner of speaking, doesn't he?

He sounds authoritarian without being loud. He has a very calming voice, but he drives his point home. Speak softly and carry a big stick? Go John!

[quiet.american]

21. Yes. n/t

[goclark]

25. Love John ~ he is a patriot of the highest order nt

[quiet.american]

22. "Troop surge is more of the same."

"Generals are transferred if they don't agree (with Bush). How do we remove ourselves from this quagmire. The Constitution gives congress central powers in matters of war and peace. The voters have spoken. Congress has the power of the purse and must use it. It is beyond absurd to suggest that those of us who favor ending the war would cut off funds from troops already in the field." (paraphrasing)

[quiet.american]

24. All -- Have to leave my desk now for about two hours - hope you'll keep the threads going!

Cheers.

[POAS]

27. Your letting work interfere?

Why do you hate America?

:)

[POAS]

26. Hoekstra is right on the talking points

Link Iraq to jihadism!

[w8liftinglady]

28. will Iran be one of the ones who hate us?

[ncrainbowgrrl]

29. "I have a passion for this subject"

[goclark]

32. Kick for more info nt

[Old and In the Way]

30. Brings up the Caliphate argument.

Gee Pete, maybe you should have thought of that before your Party decided to invade Iraq and knock the legs out of the secular government there.

[POAS]

31. Which of course begs the point

that this is a 1500 year struggle between Islamic sects!

[ncrainbowgrrl]

33. Ehhh- let's not let facts get in the way of their arguements (nt)

[Hissyspit]

34. He thinks he's so smart. Jihad is not even really the accurate term

and AGAIN it doesn't have much to do with Iraq. Iraq is about fighting occupation, in general, and political conflict, tribal conflict, anger and opportunism, among all kinds of things specifically.

[Danieljay]

37. Sounds like Christian Fundamentalism... yes, asswipe, I've seen the enemy..it is us..

[POAS]

38. He quoted Osama

wanting us out of the Holy Lands.

Somebody tell him we honored that wish by leaving Saudi Arabia.

[karlrschneider]

45. Yeah but he said OBAMA

I had to rewind the TIVO to make sure.
:puke:

[POAS]

54. Again they are right on the talking points

Gotta admire their focus on their talking points.

[MaineDem]

63. I thought I heard that!

I figured he couldn't have made that mistake.

:eyes:

[karlrschneider]

73. I'm inclined to believe it was no mistake.

...

[Danieljay]

39. he's afraid of the end of white civilization.... this guy is a fear monger...

[rodeodance]

44. yes, seems like he has been talking for 10 minutes or so!

[Danieljay]

47. he's gone way beyond... whats up?

[gratefultobelib]

35. OK--Hoekstra has totally lost me. Aren't his 5 minutes up yet?

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

46. I just said the same thing to my speakers n/t

[goclark]

36. So are the Democrats winning the debate? nt

[Bobbie Jo]

40. Before it even started...

[Danieljay]

43. we are all losing in this debate... and our loss is on the backs of our men and women in uniform

and Iraq civilians. These idiots warmongering and fearmongering... I'm sickened...

[karlrschneider]

41. Hoekstra said OBAMA instead of OSAMA

:grr:

[Hissyspit]

52. He did. I heard it. Unless he was talking about someone other than Osama...

That's exactly what he did.

[karlrschneider]

53. He was delivering a sackful of quotes from people in Al Qaeda.

I don't recall ever hearing of any Obama in Al Q.
:eyes:

edit for typo

[Hissyspit]

62. Yes. He was talking about Osama wanting withdrawal from holy lands and said Obama.

I had to stop and think back because I was only half paying attention. He DID NOT correct himself. Even if a slip of the tongue, an INEXCUSABLE slip of the tongue.

[karlrschneider]

72. And earlier, Hoekstra made reference to the "Democrat party leaders"

:grr:

[Mortos]

64. I heard that and rewound to listen again

He wasn't talking about Osama bin Laden, he was quoting a 20th century Egyptian cleric, someone named Hassan Al Banna. The second or third time he said it he said Al Bama. I listened to it 5 times and I am sure he didn't say Obama but it was pretty close.

Here is the Wikipedia entry on Al Banna:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_al_Banna

By the way, isn't what he is talking about with radical Muslims thinking that there should be no law but God's law awfully similar to some of our mainstream Christian politician's philosophies on religion's place in government.

A few ironic quotes from Peter Hoekstra (R of course) quoting radical Muslim idealogues:

The western idea of separation between religion and the rest of life is quote "a hideous schizophrenia" that would lead to the downfall of white civilization.

God, unique and without partner, is the only being of sovereignty therefore the only roll for national leaders is to implement God's laws. This gives the jihadists their belief that attacking secular or Muslim heretics societies is justified.

Just remove jihad or Muslim and keep in the idea behind the statements.

The idea of separation of Church and State is wrong and will lead to the downfall of civilization.

God Laws should be followed by leaders and that is their primary mission.

Sound familiar.

[karlrschneider]

74. I guess you are right, I backed up the tivo to listen again. I missed the

previous context. And the other comments sure do sound familiar.

[oasis]

42. MSNBC's Mike Barnicle said "frustration with the 'mission' is demoralizing to the troops".

It's widely suspected that Rethugs claims of this debate causing demoralization, won't hold water.

[C_U_L8R]

55. Did Barnicle Bill ever consider

maybe the troops are the ones most frustrated with this stupid mission ???

[oasis]

100. Yes that was his point. (nt)

[C_U_L8R]

Oh - i read it the other way around

like the republican talking point... that talking is doing the demoralizing

thanks for clarifying.

[rodeodance]

48. whow. rather simplictis view of Islum!

[w8liftinglady]

49. Hell,no-he didn't just compare war protesters to Osame via Che Guevara?

[w8liftinglady]

50. dupe

[gratefultobelib]

56. Same old same old from Rep Ros-Lehtnen--we are emboldening the enemy by this debate.

[ncrainbowgrrl]

58. Why does she annoy me so?

No- this is a serious question.... she annoys me more than almost any of the rethugs in congress.

[karlrschneider]

59. Same shit as from that asshole Hoekstra.

Goddamnit I hate these fucking people! :grr: :mad: :puke:

[C_U_L8R]

61. Y'know what emboldens the enemy ?

Knowing we have the biggest ass-clown of a President
and his twisted little henchman Cheney is even worse.

The terrorists must laugh themselves to sleep knowing
those two bozos are running things around here.

Geez.

[Hissyspit]

66. Yup. Our Incompetence, Ignorance, Hypocrisy and Arrogance.

Our continuance in making all the wrong decisions and refusing to UNDERSTAND how things really work in the world. These things embolden the terrorists and work as great recruiting tools.

[ginnyinWI]

81. conservatives can't do war--

--or much else for that matter. It requires the ability to analyze facts and change course as needed. IT requires a reliance on cooperation, not top-down dictating. It requires using reality rather than ideology.

Think of FDR, Truman. I wonder how WWII would have turned out if we'd had conservatives in control back then.

[demnan]

I had to turn it off

Watching these wingnuts was driving me crazy.

[Danieljay]

70. You and me both... I've got to stop listening.. these people are sick fearmongers...

and they are breaking this country, creating more terrorists, and responsible for the deaths of thousands.

[rodeodance]

96. she talked of her kids who served. Yet she criticized someone who said

that people go into the service to pay for college-----!!


it was as though she did not believe that.

[patrice]

57. Hitler had an entire industrial complex behind him.

Not so Al Qaeda. They are not the same thing.

Also Iraq is not solely about Al Qaeda. It's more complex about that.

Someone needs to explain self-fulfilling prophecy to Ros-Lehtinen.

[patrice]

60. Enemy only has to make the cost too high and we will give up.

Ergo there can never be a cost too high.

FOR WHAT???????

[patrice]

65. Dear Ileana is Bin Laden right about everything?

Yes? Then You must be a supporter.

[AndyA]

75. I had to turn down the volume, couldn't stand to listen to her any longer.

All about her family, college educated, serving, etc. BLAH BLAH BLAH. Her party and her pResident are the ones who got us into this.

[patrice]

78. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

I've known veteran activists who say don't waste your time. You already know what they are going to say. Focus on countering them with others who aren't already lost.

[BlueStater]

67. Fear Fear Fear FEAR!!!!

It's all they have. Do they check under their beds for brown people every night?

[gratefultobelib]

71. Yes, bang away at the fear aspect. Scare us into fighting over there so we don't have to fight here

[jwirr]

102. We need to turn the tide on them. Fear is the opposite of faith -

Where is their God. Apparently He no longer keeps them safe? Hypocrits.

[gratefultobelib]

68. Well, Rep What-ever-your-name-is, we wouldn't be in this Islamic mess were it not for bushco.

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

69. this is the most we've heard about Bin Laden from the

Repukes in ages. Is anyone gonna tell her he is not in Iraq or Iran ?

[POAS]

77. Wanted dead or alive--------oh wait old talking point

nevermind

[gratefultobelib]

76. Boswell! He's gone off script--it's great!! Laying it on the line. Maliki, it's time to act. He

and Skelton asked bushco 14 months ago--what's your plan?

[ncrainbowgrrl]

79. Boyd.

Never heard much of him before

[ncrainbowgrrl]

80. "THe Democrat National Chairman -Howard Dean" According to the rethug

[ncrainbowgrrl]

82. democrat club back home. (someone needs to clue him in on the "ic")

[patrice]

83. Kingston is young enough to serve.

Why is he wasting his time in "silly" Congress?

[A wise Man]

88. It is hard to believe

how twisted these republicans can be. They support a lie and when the lie is discovered, they twist, bend and shuffle only to return to the original lie they start with.

[patrice]

103. The basic lie is . . .

"__________ is worth Death and Destruction, but not me, nor mine."

The ONLY time ______________ is worth Death and Destruction is when I say I will take that responsibility on myself. Proxy wars are a moral and strategic mistake.

Republicans believe that the differences between people justify different social ethics, ergo some people are SUPPOSED to have power over others. And others are SUPPOSED to be quietly obedient.

They try to achieve their entire agenda on threats and force not on its actual merits (if any).

[Bobbie Jo]

84. I - rak?

[patrice]

86. Yeah, and

"ril" instead of "real".

[patrice]

85. Anti-American stuff Putin and Chavez say . . .

Yeah, we've never done a single thing to deserve any of this.

[rodeodance]

87. good grief, now that Repug says the Dems are staying the course while

Bush is changing the course with his NEW way FORWARD!

[POAS]

92. Good Grief!

[patrice]

94. Yeah, and didn't that little piss-ant think he was oh so clever with

the Democratic "contradictions" - when he really was just confusing.

[rodeodance]

97. his brain muscle was have contractions!

[patrice]

89. Tanner's doing good on the issue of respecting the Troops.

[rodeodance]

90. a Dem is talking of lack of equipment for OUR troops and WASTED $$

[rodeodance]

91. says 'INcompetetance of Pent. and Civilian LEADERSHIP!! YEAH

[rodeodance]

93. saying Iraqi polls say they think they will do BETTER if we (US) LEAVES.

[Bobbie Jo]

95. Good news for cube rats...

If you're missing this, all you have to do is tune in later and the next puke will regurgitate the same lame talking points.

Do they pass around talking point cards...or what?:eyes:

[rodeodance]

98. te he YOU are so right.

[patrice]

108. Actually I saw somewhere that something like that actually happens.

There's a room somewhere near the House chamber where they go and pick up piles of pre-prepared materials to use in their speeches.

[rodeodance]

99. Can someone start a new thread please. It would take me foreever

with my slow dial up connection.
Thanks in advance.

[BlueStater]

101. So now Bush has been compared to Churchill, Lincoln, etc.

Just compare him to Jesus Christ already and get it over with.

[rodeodance]

104. Dan Burton: Iran, Nukes, holcast if We do not stay and fight. NUCLEAR

and HOLOCOST------using these words over adnd over

[POAS]

106. Back to the mushroom cloud fear threat!

[rodeodance]

113. it was eirie---very similar to Iraq WH argument.

[roguevalley]

119. he actually left the golf course to come to this? will wonders never cease

[patrice]

105. Someone ought to tally how often they say that.

They talk as if all of the factors that made Hitler possible are the very same for Al Qaeda, which, they aren't of course.

[patrice]

107. Murphy is finally bringing up all of the experts who are against this.

I HOPE he mentions General Odom and Zbigniew Brzezinski. Brzezinski is a known HAWK who has spoken out specifically against the surge.

[rodeodance]

110. first Iraq War to be elected to Congress. He did very well.

[rodeodance]

111. Mike Pense a Repug will not support this Res.

[rodeodance]

109. another thread on Burton

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3111431

[roguevalley]

121. I love these threads. I am writing emails to all the dorks you guys

are mentioning. Keep it up. :)

[patrice]

112. Pence

Commanders say we don't need more troops.
I got to go listen to Bush's sales pitch and now I know those commanders are wrong (not a direct quote but the gist of it anyway).
OMG he's bringing up the ISG, why would he do that?????

[rodeodance]

115. I imagined Bush clapping him on the back and saying Haw yah do'in boy?

[patrice]

114. If you can be for and against the ISG Mr. Pence, why can't anyone else?

Won't solve? Why should we do something that doesn't contribute to a solution?

[rodeodance]

116. He has a "hannity whine" to him!

[rodeodance]

118. says he does not raise today to complain of Procedure, yet he has talked

several minutes about procedure and being left out.

[patrice]

117. Mr. Pence, that's Madam Speaker. n/t

[patrice]

120. Straw man.

No one's talking about cutting off funding.

We want to restrict it to the protection of the Troops.

[POAS]

122. New thread started

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3111499

[rodeodance]

126. dang. i will have to reboot, my Internet player keeps getting stuck. see you

in a bit.

[patrice]

123. I'm going to go call my Congress critter.

Need to point himm to General Odom and Zbigniew Brzezinski (will fax that stuff).

And find out when he will speak.

Back in a while.

Harebo!!

[rodeodance]

124. 'enough of the lies and decient" (sorry I missed who said that)

[rodeodance]

125. is that Pence talking about Bush??

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

128. New Thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3111499

[ncrainbowgrrl]

129. Time for a new thread...

it's over here!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3111499