On-the-fly notes concerning the rush to war with Iran...

[Jackpine Radical]

I get the feeling that there is a very strange game afoot. The NYT, Fuxx & others are pumping for war, while other forces are trying to piss on the fuze, e.g. Newsweek, Brzezinski's recent piece. It looks like a fissure arising among the Powers That Be.

I have for some time felt that at least some of the people who really run things want to cut their losses & pull the curtain on Bushco. It now seems to be a contest between the Bushco team (mostly military-industrial factions), who are charging ahead, & other forces who are trying to hook them off the stage. These would be the old, established moneyed classes, the "Illuminati," who have a much longer-term view than the Neocons, but who made common cause with the Straussians several years ago. The Illuminati hold the deep-seated, inexorable power, but their controls are indirect and slow. They set general trends but lack the ability to make rapid changes of course. The Neocons, who are tightly allied with the Military-Industrial Complex (MIC), lack the depth of the Illuminati, but can make relatively rapid zigs and zags. If you're familiar with the general idea of state versus trait, think of the Illuminati as determinants of traits and of the Neocons as controlling rapid changes of state. ("State" as I'm using it in this paragraph refers to a momentary condition, not a political unit).

The White House has essentially dropped all pretense of democracy; as Cheney said, public opinion "isn't going to stop us." They're going to pull out all the stops & go for it all while they're still in power. Captain Queeg is at the helm, and it's gonna be a helluva ride, all the way into a concrete abutment somewhere not far down the road.

The Illuminati tend to control European politics right now, the MIC the US.

Illuminati are "greener" than the Neocons, because they have a transgenerational view.

//The above reflects some rapidly-developing ideas. I would appreciate feedback on whether any of this makes sense or whether I'm just going off the deep end.//

[Stinky The Clown]

1. Feedback:

Some would say your tin foil is too tight; there is no ruling class (termed by you in your post as the Illuminati).

Some would say you're spot on in your characterization of the forces at work, but may or may not argue with your conclusions.

Were I to weigh in on this, I'd find myself agreeing with you in not only your views, but also your conclusions.

I'm not weighing in on this. :)

[Jackpine Radical]

2. Just as well you're not weighing in, then.

Hate to get you on all those lists I'm on. :evilgrin:

[LibertyorDeath]

3. The powers that be

The powers that be
They like a tough game
No rules
Some you win, some you lose
Competition's good for you
They're dying to be free
They're the powers that be

They like a bomb proof cadillac
Air conditioned, gold taps,
Back seat gun rack, platinum hub caps
They pick horses for courses
They're the market forces
Nice car Jack

They like order, make-up, lime light power
Game shows, rodeos, star wars, TV
They're the powers that be
If you see them come,
You better run - run
You better run on home

Sisters of mercy better join your brothers
Put a stop to the soap opera right now
They say the toothless get ruthless
You better run on home

You better run - run
You better run on home

The powers that be
They like treats, tricks, carrots and sticks
They like fear and loathing, they like sheep's clothing
And blacked-out vans

Blacked-out vans, contingency plans
They like death or glory, they love a good story
They love a good story

Sisters of mercy better join with your brothers
Put a stop to the soap opera state
They say the toothless get ruthless
Run home before its too late
You better run - run
You better run on home

The Powers That Be Lyrics
by Roger Waters



No you're not off the deep end AT ALL

try this
http://rigint.blogspot.com/2007/02/monolith-monsters.html

[Jackpine Radical]

4. Wow.

I had never seen that site before, but it certainly dovetails with my line of thinking. I think I'll be spending quite a bit of time there for a while.

[LibertyorDeath]

6. The owner posts here sometimes as Minstrel Boy

A very bright mind imo

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1836172&mesg_id=1836172

Stop by when you get a chance
http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board/

Cheers

[Jackpine Radical]

10. I went, looked & bookmarked. Will return. (nt)

[Sir Jeffrey]

5. I think your post is true and accurate...

the "realist" camp of the elite tried to bail Bush out of Iraq via the Iraq Study Group. That, in my view, was the true powers that run this country going to Bush and telling him to move over, they are driving now. Bush gave them the finger, and now the gloves are off.

Bush's father, as evil and conservative as he may be, is not an idiot nor an ideologue. Nor are the "illuminati" you refer to...although I would refrain from using that particular term. They don't want to watch the US launch a new war or continue this war. The longer the war (s) continue, the more Americans wake up to what is really going on, and they are afraid.

When the cat is finally out of the bag, Americans will fundamentally revisit their government's priorities. When that happens you can bet that the following will change:

1. No longer will the US spend more on military expenditures than every other country on Earth COMBINED. Money will be spent at home to fix our own problems.

2. No longer will the US be given a blank check to spread "freedom" to those who elect governments hostile to US corporations.

3. No longer will the MIC get away with fleecing the American taxpayer on no-bid contracts with zero oversight.

That is why you are now seeing a fundamental shift in how the news media portray the administration and their policies. That is why you are seeing people like Rupert Murdoch aligning with people like HRC for 2008. If Bush gets his way, not only will the economy suffer but the free ride given to the US military and contractors will be over.

I take some degree of comfort in the fact that at the last Bilderberg meeting, most of the European delegates were opposed to war with Iran because of the global consequences. These people know the stakes and have avenues to pursue that are closed to citizens like you and me.

[Jackpine Radical]

7. I hate to make this sound like such a mutual admiration society, but

the only part of your post I'm not sure about is your numbered projections about what will happen after "the cat is out of the bag." I can only hope you're right there.

As for the rest of what you write, your perspective is exactly the same as mine. The ball is about to enter the court of the DLC "realists."

I'm not sure of the relative importance of preventing Americans from waking up versus saving the world from the impending ecological collapse to the ones I called the "Illuminati," but I think they are in it for the long haul, and are not playing the short-term hedonist game of the Ami MIC.

Did you look at the link given in the post by LibertyorDeath above?: http://rigint.blogspot.com/2007/02/monolith-monsters.html

[Sir Jeffrey]

8. Let me explain my points a bit better...

Human beings are remarkable creatures...they can be conditioned to believe strange and fascinating stories or they can be taught to think critically and be skeptics. Elites have known this for centuries, and without getting into too much detail you can probably guess that this knowledge has applications in many fields: theology, politics, social science, acts of war, etc.

The method of control in the US is the main stream press: ABC, NBC, NYT, etc.

It is preferable to the elites in ANY society that the masses are kept in the dark about many things...instead, they are force-fed myths about their country, their society, and their place in the world. People often eagerly accept these myths because it seems to give their lives purpose and meaning.

When you break this system down to its base elements, it is a conditioned response to external stimuli. Yes, just like Pavlov's dogs.

What does that have to do with my post?

The problem with conditioned response to external stimuli comes when the "controllers", so to speak, are unable to induce the desired response in the subjects. When this happens in humans, we call it cognitive dissonance.

(example: when I see pictures of dead US soldiers in Iraq, I don't feel anger at the Iraqis...I feel anger at Bush and his cronies. The external stimuli from the media, pictures of dead US soldiers at the hand of Iraqis, produces an UNDESIRABLE reaction in me, anger at Bush).

Cognitive dissonance occurs when we have two seemingly contradictory thoughts/opinions in our minds. Our brains are structured to seek answers and ask questions in order to resolve these contradictions. If/when we reach a period where the dissonance is too much for us to handle, we begin to think for ourselves by asking pointed questions, studying issues dilligently, and reaching our own conclusions.

What Bush is doing is unwittingly creating a generation of skeptics and free thinkers...and the "illuminati" type elites know it and want to stop it.

My bullet points are simply an extension of this method of anaylsis based on interpeting the current political climate and the possibly insane expansion of the war into Iran/Syria. Americans seeking alternative views on virtually any subject can get online and have answers. Bush and his cronies will be unable to convince a population clamoring for real answers because their entire basis for war and social policy is a lie.

[Jackpine Radical]

9. I'm familiar with the concept of cognitive dissonance,

I think it was mentioned somewhere along the line when I was doing my BS, MS & PhD in psych, back in the 60's & 70's.

I'm glad you brought it up, though. Made me think of Festinger, and then of Milton Rokeach, which brought to mind his study on changing the values of a small town in WA.

And BTW, I'm doing some free anxiety/stress management workshops in my local community with the specific idea of rendering people less fearful & more capable of using their frontal executive functions. I view this as a political act.

[ShortnFiery]

17. Hey there Jackpine Radical

I've only attained my B.S. and M.S. in Psychology. Thesis in Divided Visual Field Study.

Nice to see another Psychology lover here. My right wing parents broke down and cried when I switched majors in my Junior Year from Nursing to Psychology. They also disowned me for a couple of years. I believe to this day that they told their friends that I was in jail during that time rather than to admit that I was majoring in a pinko "social science" commie subject as ghastly as Psychology. :rofl:

Again, nice to see an person who has Piled it Higher and Deeper (PhD) here.

Makes me humble Doc. ;) :hi:

[Jackpine Radical]

18. Oh, I'm sure the MS is enough to ruin you.

Divided visual field--interesting stuff. It ain't nice to trick the optic chiasma, y'know. I recall some split-field work from many years ago in which the object was to look for which tasks involved sendeing signals to the other hemisphere via the corpus callosum. The basic marker was, iirc, a 30 ms delay in RT.


Can you give me a quick "abstract" of what you did?

[ShortnFiery]

19. Sure

But I'll spare the folks here the terminology and PM my abstract to you before tomorrow. It would be good to get your opinion as my efforts were truly original research. That is, I wasn't doing some other Professor's experiment for him/her. Hey, it happens but none of them wanted me for their pet. :P Thanks for asking.

[Sir Jeffrey]

21. Oh wow...

a poli sci major like myself being presumptuous enough to discuss cognitive dissonance among those much more knowledgeable than I. Sometimes I come off as an ass even when I am not trying to be.

:D

[Jackpine Radical]

23. I certainly didn't think you presumptuous.

I think I jumped a little harder than I should have. It's not like we post our vitae around here, after all. I do think the whole cog dissonance etc. discussion is one worth having in this context, & am glad to find others around who know about it.

[FrenchieCat]

11. Hel-lo!

"On-the-fly notes concerning the rush to war with Iran...
I get the feeling that there is a very strange game afoot."

Guess the question is......is anyone paying attention?

Currently, based on what I see on the news....BushCo/PNAC is winning.
As of yesterday, we are getting the "FOR WAR" footage of weaponry identified as Iranian being found in Iraq.

Guess the PR question that is sublimenally being asked is "what are we gonna do about it?"

Bush's statement on admiration for Truman this morning on C-Span doesn't exactly comfort me; considering that Truman dropped the big one on Japan.

[Jackpine Radical]

12. Well...udging by the responses to this thread

not many are paying attention.

Guess it's more fun to bash Presidential candidates.

[FrenchieCat]

13. Well between the Corporate Media's informative

Anna Nicole lastest post mortem event reportage, Astronauts in diaper saga, and election 2008 fixated on Democratic challengers only.......seems like the "Iran is killing our soldier" headline is passing muster--as planned.

[KoKo]

14. And weren't we warned to always look for subtle cues in Bush Speak

as to where his thoughts are headed? It's not like Bush has any original thoughts...but more likely that his "advisors" plant things in his brain (on the guise of keeping him informed) and he knows he's not supposed to repeat those things...but when he's given a Forum he will subconsciously blurt out something that's an insight on what is planned next.

The "Truman" comment (with the subtle undertones of "Dropping the Bomb to Save Soldiers" lives meme) is his way of justifying what he's been told with whatever pea sized conscience the man has left.

[Jackpine Radical]

16. I think you're right, but ha know...

That guy has never done anything that would lead me to accuse him of possessing anything remotely like a conscience. He doesn't even fake it well. If he didn't ave the family connections he does, he wouldn't even make it as a second-rate conman.

[KoKo]

24. But...bear in mind his "pathology." He maybe had no "conscience"

in a form that would be recognizable by many here on DU of the "progressive" bent...but he still has some primate cunning that allows him to realize he's being used...and threats of danger come into his mind...and he gets into a conflict in his "little mind" and blurts out what he isn't supposed to.

We are dealing with a "primative self preservation mind" who can recognize some things of a "primal nature." His primal nature is the "pea sized part of what some of us might think of as conscience..in it's primal form.

Hey...whatever...I'm just the "armchair psychologist" but have read stuff from real psychologists about him and watching him..."MY OWN PRIMAL CONSCIENCE" has caused me to look "deeply" into Chimp's soul. :D

[Jackpine Radical]

25. Well, I definitely think you're right about all that "primal process" stuff

that comes boiling out of his mouth. Dictatorship, trifecta, fabulous year, heckuva job, Brownie, etc.--you know the list as well as I do, and every time he was telling more truth than he (or the idiot media) knew.

[KoKo]

26. His own "instincts" (thinking he's a "good guy, cheeful fellow") come into conflict

with what HE HAS ENABLED...and so the guilt froths out of his mouth when he "mis-speaks" or inserts what seems to be "absurdities or gibberish" into his speeches and "appearances."

But...it eats away at him in some part... Still he always knows that "SOMEONE" will bail him out...so his "primal slips of the tongue" along with what we've read is his "rebellion against his Poppy and antagonistic "protection" of his Dragon Lady Mother cause him such psychic angst...that what we see is his pitiful expressions of TRUTH..that he isn't consciously aware of. :shrug:

[KoKo]

15. There are lots of folks here who would agree with you ....but

they lurk....or just don't know what to ad to what you say.... I agree that there are powers clashing with each other to try to keep the Titanic from going down.

[ClassWarrior]

20. I hope that concrete abutment...

...really is "not far down the road." The collision is going to smart, but the sooner it's over, the better.

Excellent analysis JR.

NGU.

[loveandlight]

22. agree on the fight in the ruling class

I have thought that for a while now too. The scary thing is that the MIC (I'll use your terms, I don't have any better) is in control right now of the nuclear button, I fear, and may use it before the other side can rein them in. These sorts of ruling class wars usually come down to someone going out the door one way or another, if they can't come to an agreement. Who wins in this one? The MIC is much more in control this time around than ever before, I don't know that they will give up so easily. The only thing that makes me have any sense of a chance that they will be reined in is that military leaders themselves are fearful of the outcome if we attack Iran. They may have to listen to the current group of bosses, but that doesn't mean they aren't giving just the right amount of information to those who would stop this insanity to get them out of office and stop the coming worldwide holocaust. I don't believe we, the little people at the bottom, can do too much at this point to help stop it, other than to let them all know, both sides, that we are on to them and will continue to be on the side of stopping this war. We are not fooled by the ramping up of hostilities against Iran. We are not fooled by pretend diplomacy. We will support impeachment or whatever it takes to bring this all to a halt.