Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

What to do when you have no good choices

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 10:30 PM
Original message
What to do when you have no good choices
There seems to be a lot of discussion about the two options open to the current U.S. administration regarding Iraq: cut-and-run or stay-the-ever-escalating-course.

Both options offer little in the way of attractive outcomes.

Staying and escalating has the obvious as well as not so obvious problems. The administration has already proposed cutting domestic spending programs in order to finance the war in Iraq; further escalation will only exacerbate the economic aspect of the inability to continue in this direction. Where, after all, is the money to come from? The treasury is already borrowing enormous sums to make up the shortfall between revenues and expenditures, effectively mortgaging the future of our children and grandchildren (depending on our ages).

Part of the problem that isn't often examined is the lack of industrial infrastructure in the U.S. and how the decline in the industrial/manufacturing segment of the U.S. economy has diminished the ability of the government to collect the tax revenue to support the war. Instead of making things that make money, ours has become a "service" economy in which many of our "jobs" consist of little more than shifting already-earned money around from one place to another: financial services, health care, retail sales, etc. In essence, the administration and its corporate globalization supporters has put the U.S. on the same road to economic self-destruction that befell the old Soviet Union. The difference is that the U.S. had a thriving manufacturing infrastructure before its slide into feudalism; the Soviet Union never achieved that height and thus had a much shorter distance to fall.

Staying and escalating is, however, within the capability of the virtually imperial administration currently in place. There is little hope that it will succeed in anything remotely resembling a "victory," even though no definition of that "victory" has yet been clearly articulated. If we operate on the assumption that "victory" means an effective, stable, peaceful, small-d-democratic government in an Iraq within the same borders as now delineate it, the internal conditions of civil war, sectarian violence, and anti-occupation insurgence seem to preclude such a victory. And for the U.S. military -- even augmented by private security companies, mercenaries, etc. -- to establish and then maintain such a government is a pipe dream: we simply don't have the troops and materiel to stand there like prison guards and enforce an unwanted administration on the people of Iraq for an indefinite period of time, perhaps years, possibly decades.

So staying the course is abject futility, with nothing good possible. Nix that idea.

But is cutting and running any better? Probably not. A "phased redeployment" while the bad guys are still shooting at us and laying IEDs under our vehicles is going to be a delicate operation, very different from either a clear cut victory or a defeat and surrender. If victory were possible, we could leave after the "enemy" surrenders and agrees to our terms. But since that isn't a reasonable expectation, do we dare look at the other possibility?

Even in Vietnam, the U.S. did not surrender to the Vietnamese or the Viet Cong, nor were there any terms agreed to that laid out specific items such as reparations, decrease in military establishment, and so on, such as were levied against the defeated powers in World Wars I and II. How could such a formal surrender be effected in Iraq? Could the U.S. government, under either the present administration or some future administration, effectively "surrender" to Iraq? The political logistics would be a nightmare. To whom would we surrender? Who would set the terms? Who would enforce them? There is no truly functioning government in Iraq right now, and given the realities of the sectarian violence and anti-American insurgence, who would guarantee "safe-conduct" for the withdrawal of the surrendered troops? If there's a formal surrender, would the departing military be able to act in its own defense if attacked in the act of retreating? Or would the "defeated" military forces be considered prisoners of war, war criminals, or what?

These are, of course, rhetorical questions, but only in the sense that they don't have any real answers right now. If, however, the option of formal surrender were to be considered, these questions would have to be addressed.

And what about all the materiel? Who would take possession of that? After all, there is an enormous amount of equipment – paid for with taxpayer dollars – over there, not to mention all the extravagant construction going on both in the "green zone" and the various military bases being "established" in the country. Would all of that be simply turned over to the Iraqis?

Then comes the question of reparations. A victorious nation, if one can apply that title to Iraq at this stage, has often been granted the right to exact payment for the damage it has suffered at the hands of the vanquished. Considering the horrendous damage inflicted on the Iraqi people and landscape by the invading U.S. military forces and private contractors, it is not inconceivable that Iraq, with support from an unknown number of other nations and international bodies, could demand that the U.S. fund the reconstruction of Iraq. Even though the original plan for the invasion, occupation, conquest, and ultimate democratization of Iraq included funds for the reconstruction, very little has been done. Many facilities are in worse shape than under Saddam Hussein.

So while a formal surrender might have the advantage of getting the U.S. troops out of Iraq expeditiously, the collateral damage could be as bad as, or even worse than, staying the course.

Any kind of withdrawal short of absolute victory has to address the existing conditions in Iraq, specifically the sectarian violence, ethnic civil war, and the economic implications of the chaotic state. It might be interesting to play a bit of "what-if" to determine any other viable options.

Certainly we acknowledge that prior to the ousting of Saddam Hussein, there was no civil unrest in Iraq to compare to what exists now. Saddam, as a secular leader, kept the violence in check. Granted, he may have done it in unsavory ways, oppressing the majority Shia in favor of the minority Sunni and discriminating against the ethnic Kurds, but at least there was much less violence and the infrastructure functioned. In a sense, then, it could be said that the U.S. invasion triggered the violence.

However, we also know that these "tribal" animosities are of long duration, stretching back for centuries. The victorious allies after World War I established Iraq as a sovereign nation, but it had no organic development. Only external intervention and/or strong man tyrannies have held it together this long. And perhaps it is time that we, as "western democracies," recognize that in order for a similar democracy to take firm hold in Iraq, it must do so as a result of the will of the people. It may very well be that, even though the U.S. invasion toppled Saddam and unleashed the violence, that very violence may have been inevitable no matter when Saddam fell. It may be that the violence, rather than democracy, is organic.

In other words, the U.S. was wrong to invade and rip the top off the volcano, but the current U.S. administration didn't start the volcano; it was there all along.

In that sense, then, the "Crate and Barrel" metaphor should be discarded. Yes, the U.S. barged into Iraq and wreaked unconscionable havoc. There is no doubt about that. And that havoc extends from the initial "shock and awe" bombing to the invasion and occupation, through the failure to secure the existing weapons supplies, to the failure to plan for contingencies such as resistance and insurgence. But what the U.S. should not be blamed for is the tribal sensitivities that are fueling the attacks against American troops.

Yes, to counter that one must acknowledge that the U.S. seems to have set out upon this enterprise with no understanding of those sensitivities, no understanding of the ethnic, cultural, and religious as well as political history of the region. But what the U.S. – both the administration and the public – needs to understand is that there may not be an acceptable military outcome to this misadventure. There may not be a recognizable democracy to emerge from whatever violence remains after a U.S. withdrawal.

That violence may have been just waiting for an excuse and an opportunity to erupt; it may very well have been inevitable. If it was not inevitable and was solely the result of the U.S. invasion, then the removal of American forces should result in the cessation of violence. If, however, the sectarian and ethnic clashes are the natural culmination of centuries of repression, then a U.S. withdrawal will have no noticeable effect, just as a U.S. military presence is having no noticeable effect.

We know that the region is crucial to U.S. political and economic interests. We know the invasion of Iraq was about the oil, and if some analyses are accurate, it's also about the generation of inexpensive electricity by means of nuclear power plants. (If the oil-producing nations have cheaper nuclear plants, they would be able to use less of their own oil and thus better control the world supply. The capacity to produce nuclear weapons is only a scare tactic, albeit an effective one for both sides, as other DUers have pointed out far more eloquently and informedly than I can even attempt to do here.) Any invasion of Iran will be for the same reason, and it will be equally futile in achieving that goal. The U.S. simply does not have the military machinery -- human and otherwise -- to engage successfully in such an operation; the result could very likely be "formal surrender."

But because the U.S. administration seems oblivious to the "tribal sensitivities" in the region and their impact on military operations, no effective exit strategy can be designed or implemented. Victory is impossible, defeat is inconceivable, so something else has to be devised. The inability of an either/or perspective to find alternatives is obvious in this tragic instance.

Let's look again at the complexities, and at how tangled the current U.S. operation is in the very "tribal sensitivities" it's not paying any attention to -- and what that means in terms of developing an alternative to the either/or of victory or defeat:

The Saudis are ostensibly U.S. allies, and they are Sunnis, as are the majority of Muslims around the world. The Iranians, who were U.S. allies as long as the U.S. propped up the Shah, are mostly Shia. In Iraq, the U.S. is supporting a Shia-led and Shia-supported puppet government, while the majority Shia are led by sectarian leaders like Moqtada al-Sadr who are committed to defeating and ousting the U.S. occupation! To complicate matters, the Saddam regime was run by the Baath party, made up almost entirely of Sunni Muslims. As supporters – often in name only – of Saddam, the Baath party and its Sunni members were stripped of any rights and privileges they had under Saddam, thus alienating them from the U.S. These Sunni represented most of the professionals in the Saddam government: the professors and engineers and doctors and scientists.

In other words, we made EVERYONE there our enemy!

Yes, we broke it, but it's beyond fixing. We already know that many of the professional class in Iraq have fled; many others have been killed in the fighting. We can't undo that. Allowing more of our own people to be killed, allowing them to kill more Iraqis, putting our own nation further and further and further into debt over an unwinnable war is absurdity piled on obscenity.

We must leave now. We must cut our losses and get the hell out. Will it mean 3000+ Americans have died in vain? Perhaps, but the alternative could very well be waiting until 58,000 Americans have died in vain, because the U.S. is truly engaged in another Vietnam: a situation in which no military victory is possible, but the political logistics of traditional military defeat and surrender are likewise untenable. Nothing is going to bring those 3000 back. Bombing Afghanistan did not bring back the 3000 killed on September 11, 2001; invading Iraq did not bring them back either.

We must address the economic issues that led to the motivation for invading Iraq and for contemplating the invasion of Iran: the unquenchable American thirst for oil and the destruction of an equitable economic system. Corporate globalization, with its refined concentration of wealth into just a few hands, promotes the kind of feudalistic tyranny that considers war "politics -- or business -- by different means."

Just as we tried to help Iraq evolve into a western-style democracy without the evolutionary social foundation for it, we need to help our own western culture – and specifically our culture of American exceptionalism and our culture of Puritanic revenge motivation – evolve to a point where we look to the past for instruction, but to the future for motivation.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Ten thousand wrongs don't make a right. And two million deaths will not restore a single lost life. We cannot keep doing the same thing over and over and over and expecting a different result: we all know that's the definition of insanity.

There are no good choices; there is only an opportunity to stop making bad choices. We can't undo the harm that's done; we can only resolve not to do any more. Let's stop the insanity. Let's stop the war. Let's stop it NOW.


Tansy Gold
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
rwenos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Third Way
Internationalize the occupation force, share the oil revenue.

Then Americans stop dying.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. "Internationalize the occupation force"
while this would clearly be better than a unilateral US occupation, it is not at all clear to me that "internationalizing" the occupation is an option available to the US. It's hard to imagine any country or even the UN stepping into the cauldron.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. I'm not sure that's something the U.S. can initiate
And that's why I didn't include it as an option.

To begin with, the instability in Iraq may be organic, in the sense that no one from the outside, not even an international peacekeeping force, can impose peace. And I also think that the international community, given the arrogance and lying of the current U.S. administration, will justifiably say, "You made the mess, you clean it up; we aren't sending our kids in there to die for your mistake."

Secondly, I don't think it's anyone else's responsibility to "divvy up" the oil revenues. That has to be internal, too. Any kind of solution that's imposed from outside Iraq will simply be another edition of the meddling that's gone on since the 1920s.

What the U.S. can do, unilaterally, is withdraw. It may not be able to withdraw gracefully, and it sure as hell isn't going to be able to withdraw without paying a price, probably in property left behind more than in lives, though there will undoubtedly be lives lost; that's the ugly nature of war.

But it seems that part and parcel of the problem has been the arrogance of the U.S. administration, and the failure of so many people both in that administration and in its far-too-loyal opposition to recognize that a mistake has been made and someone has to pay for it. While it may very well be that the Iraqi people will request an international peacekeeping force AFTER the U.S. departs, I think that should be left up to them, rather than being imposed from without.

TG

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. Any way we do this it's not going to be pretty.
It's not pretty now. And adding more troops isn't going to be the solution, it's only going to add fuel to the fire and put more targets out there in Iraq. I think we need to set a deadline, make the Iraqi's stand up for themselves and place pressure on them to do so, and get the fuck out of there as fast as possible.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lligrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. That Puppet Government Won't Last A Month After We Pull Out
and it shouldn't. We had no business going in and we have no business staying. We broke Iraq and we can't fix it. Some of us tried to warn about this before we went in. We were right then and we still are. Get the heck out of Iraq, apologize and try Bush, Cheney, Rummy, Condi, Rove, Powell, Perle and the rest for War Crimes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. "make the Iraqi's stand up for themselves"
Kerry said we've now trained more than 300,000 Iraqi soldiers. They've shown no loyalty to the government in Baghdad. My take is that there is nothing that the US can do to "make the Iraqi's stand up for themselves". It's one of those "you can't get there from here" things.

Under the heading of "necessity is the mother of invention", I think the US needs to leave as quickly as American troop safety permits. At that point, Iraqi soldiers will determine exactly where their loyalties lie. I see no way the US, as occupiers, can have an iota of influence on the choices Iraqi soldiers eventually make.

We've given them the training they needed to do the job; the rest should be up to them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. In essence, that's exactly what they're doing
Those Iraqis who are passionate enough about their desires are indeed "standing up." We may not like the way they're doing it, but they're doing something.

"The Iraqis" can mean a lot of different things. I suspect the current U.S. administration means "the Iraqis we've trained to do our bidding," and those Iraqis may not be doing the standing up we want them to do.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. that's right
one might suggest that the training of 300,000 Iraqi soldiers did nothing but escalate the violence. Now, instead of random violence, we've helped develop highly trained death squads. How many more should we train before we leave?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-05-07 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. And add those to the 300,000 who were dismissed when
Bremer dissolved Saddam's army. Oh, to be sure, there are probably a few of the "old" army who have joined the "new" army, but sheesh, if we're talking 300,000 disgruntled, out of work, angry, humiliated by their country's invasion and occupation by ignorant infidels former soldiers and 300,000 newly trained volunteers eager for revenge and with a license to kill "the enemy". . . .

My essay was an attempt to work through the logic of why a swift and safe-as-humanly-possible exit is the only sane and sensible course of action. It's not a good solution, but the opportunity for good solutions has long since gone by the wayside. The present administration is NOT going to admit its mistakes, is NOT going to consider withdrawal, is NOT going to acknowledge that there is no shred of hope for "victory." The present administration is not going to withdraw, and they are going to find any and every loophole by which to stay and escalate. There is nothing to be gained by this. Absolutely nothing.

I don't know exactly how to go about getting an administration in place that will do the difficult things that are needed. I don't know if the world will survive another two years of this: not just the threat of some ideologue on any side going the route of nuclear annihilation, which is probably not very likely, but the threat of economic collapse, brought on by runaway military spending and a dismantled American manufacturing base.

I do think, however, that the ultimate economic burdens placed on the U.S. as a result of the catastrophe wrought in Iraq will force dramatic changes in the way many Americans live their lives. The ameliorative effect of raising the minimum wage will be insignificant.

TG

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-05-07 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. a previous discussion between two DU'ers on Iraq
Edited on Mon Feb-05-07 12:35 AM by welshTerrier2
you might find this interesting. it was a discussion about our Iraq policy between another DU'er and myself. He's a strong Wes Clark supporter. If for no other reason, and there are several, the discussion was noteworthy because, although we draw very different conclusions about the right Iraq policy, the discussion retained a respectful tone and covered a wide array of policy considerations.

if you're interested, here's a link: http://www.aleftturnforclark.com/2006/12/debating_iraq_online_with_a_fr.html

btw, i just recommended your thread. it's a great effort on a critical issue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-05-07 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Thank you, welshTerrier2, for both
the recommendation vote and the recommended thread.

This has been a exercise for me in how to present a case that "cutting and running" is actually, at this point, the best of a very bad bunch of options, not only for the U.S. military but for the rest of "America" and for Iraq and the Iraqis, too. Some of the people with whom I might end up discussing this would probably be vehemently opposed to anything short of "victory," and so I wanted to make sure *I* understand what I'm talking about.

I think it's possible, too, that many Americans on both side of the political divide operate from a fear factor: fear of admitting defeat, fear of admitting "we" can't fix what was broken a long time ago, fear of acknowledging our fallible humanness.

More important -- and almost never discussed -- is the old "We're killing them there so they don't kill us here" and what it really means in terms of both American and global security from terrorism. The U.S. invasion and occupation of Iraq seems to have illustrated a fact of "modern" life that's been around since at least the decline and fall of the Roman Empire: If you spread your military too thin, if you rely on mercenaries and outsiders to protect your interests against their own, if you abandon the economy of your own "country" in favor of foreign exploits and exploitation, you run the very real risk of losing everything. The English couldn't do it, the French couldn't do it, the Spanish couldn't do it, and in most of those "modern" empires, the occupiers held a significant technological advantage. Today, in 2007, we can't even claim that the U.S. has superior technology: the "natives" are taking down our helicopters with apparent ease, we have little defense against IEDs, and our arrogant stupidity has neutralized virtually any other weaponry advantage we might have gone in with.

So I don't think there's really any rational fear that, hey, Washington DC is about to be overrun by militant Indonesian Muslims, though there may be a fear of terrorist attachs perpetrated by just about anyone, included disgruntled WASPs. But there is an irrational fear -- illustrated by the fear of "excessive" immigration by brown folks from south of the border -- that the U.S. could be militarily invaded and occupied. Given the inability of the federal government to deal with the localized and short-lived natural disaster of Katrina, how effective could they be against a sustained assault by a determined invader? And given the complacency of most of the populace, how effective would an American "insurgency" be?

These are the issues that don't seem to me to be getting much play, and I'm probably preaching to the choir here on DU, but it's giving me some practice in laying out my thoughts and making them make sense to me.

Again, thanks.

Tansy Gold
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
6. Talk to the Baathists
Edited on Sun Feb-04-07 11:14 PM by maxsolomon
their ordinance isn't going to run out soon. Nither are foreign jihadis willing to kill themselves to kill shiites for the Baathis/Sunni Insurgency. The Syrians can open the channels.

Talk to the Militias. The Iranians can open the channels.

Talk to the Turks - the Kurds are going to gain independence. They must learn to live with it.

Turn to the Arab League. Beg their forgiveness & promise to withdraw the second they have a framework for progress.

Partition is the best hope. We, Israel, and every Muslim country have to stop letting fear dictate foreign policy.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
8. actually, a victorious solution is obvious, but Americans won't go for it
What is the solution? Look at how easily Saddam Hussein was able to crush the Shi'ite and Kurdish rebels after the Gulf War; only took him a month. He did this through mass killings, and extreme brutality and coercion, but prevented a civil war. Had the US used the same ruthlessness, this insurgency would have been snuffed out in its infancy. Please note that I am not advocating a horrid policy like this; merely noting that it worked.
Since we are unwilling to be ruthless, but unwilling to withdraw, the end result will be a continued long-term slaughter of not only American troops, but hundreds of thousands of more Iraqis, whether we leave now or not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. From Apocalypse Now:
KURTZ
" I've seen horrors...horrors that you've seen. But you have no right to call
me a murderer. You have a right to kill me. You have a right to do that...But
you have no right to judge me. It's impossible for words to describe what is
necessary to those who do not know what horror means.
Horror. Horror has a face...And you must make a friend of horror. Horror and
moral terrorare your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared.
They are truly enemies. I remember when I was with Special Forces...Seems
a thousand centuries ago...We went into a camp to innoculate the children.
We left the camp after we had innoculated the children for Polio, and this old
man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went
back there and they had come and hacked off every innoculated arm. There
they were in a pile...A pile of little arms. And I remember...I...I...I cried...
I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I
wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want
to forget. And then I realized...like I was shot...Like I was shot with a
diamond...a diamond bullet right through my forehead...And I thought:
My God...the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect,
genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were
stronger than we. Because they could stand that these were not
monsters...These were men...trained cadres...these men who fought with
their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with
love...but they had the strength...the strength...to do that. If I had ten
divisions of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You
have to have men who are moral...and at the same time who are able to
utilize their primordal instincts to kill without feeling...without passion...
without judgement...without judgement. Because it's judgement that
defeats us. "

We are too civilized to do what is neccessary to pacify a rebellious populace. And if we cannot be as brutal as our enemy, we should leave. After all, we're the invaders. The Mongols would laugh at us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Mon Apr 29th 2024, 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC