Democratic, Democrat, Democratic, Democrat ...

[harveyc]

I have been accused of using the term "democrat party" and never did. "Democratic Party" is correct.

I did use the term "Democrat Candidate" and was chastised here for using that terminology. Proper usage is as follows ...

"Hillary Clinton" = "Candidate"

thus,

Democrat "Hillary Clinton" = Democrat "Candidate"

no one would say,

Democratic "Hillary Clinton" nor Democratic "Candidate"

Democratic Party "Candidate" would be proper ...

Q.E.D. & EOS

Apologizes are welcomed :)

[k_jerome]

1. ehhh. wrong answer. nt.

[illinoisprogressive]

2. This whole argument seems so immature to me. sorry but, I just think

it's stupid. To go on and on about the damn word is just what the right wants. they did it to bug you and you play right into their hands.
People. Get a grip!
I don't mean to sound mean or anything but, think. Carrying on about it and being so oversensitive is just what the right is hoping for and want you to obsess on it like you do. This is why they do it.
If you get a grip and ignore it then, it will lose power and they will quit.
This is so silly!

[harveyc]

3. I thought the thread title conveyed your thinking on this. ... n/t

[liberaldemocrat7]

36. REPUBLIKLAN REPUBLICLOWN RAPEUBLICAN

REPUBLIKLAN REPUBLICLOWN RAPEUBLICAN

[Evergreen Emerald]

41. That is what they said about "liberal" too

Language matters. The history of the slur is to demean, reduce. The beginning of that reduction is the power to re-name who your enemy is.

Childish? I disagree. I think language is important.

[calimary]

87. Language DOES matter. HUGELY. It's another weapon in the arsenal

that they've honed to a high art, thanks to the newt gingriches and frank luntzes of the world. People who turn their noses up about this certainly can, if they must. But while they're trying to ignore it (because it'll go away - yeah, SURE), a subtler, subliminal injury is being perpetrated, AND ALLOWED TO SINK INTO THE PUBLIC PSYCHE. It's VERY under-the-radar. VERY. Extremely silky and subtle, and look how it's working on the people who poo-poo it. Another very subconscious seed-planting strategy on the part of the enemy. It's allowed to take root, fester, and feed into a larger PERCEPTION of reality. Slowly but surely it arms, emboldens, and strengthens the enemy, and softens up the ground that they can then roll over with far more ease. That's how you engineer a take over. First, you soften up the turf. Then it's easier to move in for the kill. That's how you impact public opinion. First, you demonize the opposition. Slowly, surely, subtly, so nobody even feels it when you're slicing and dicing. They don't feel it til they're on the ground, having nearly bled to death. That's why the word "liberal" is now befouled. They did a number on it, too. That's why newt put this whole frickin' BOOK together of recommended words and phrases - the good and positive and favorable ones to use for all things republi-CON/conservative/reactionary, and bad, negative, and unfavorable ones for all things Democratic/liberal/progressive. And newt had lots of copies of those books printed for distribution to his "GOPAC" machine of slash-n-burn politics. It's real. It's quite serious. It's mind control. And it's effective. And we better damned well be blowing the whistle about it, and turning the tables, using it to OUR advantage for a change. That's why I ALWAYS refer to the GOP as "republi-CONS" ('cause all they offer is a CON-job).

You who sneer at this do so at your/OUR peril.

I have more on that, here, humbly submitted:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3076232

[Evergreen Emerald]

111. That was well stated Calimary

That is exactly what I have been thinking all along, but never quite been able to say as articulately as you did.

[sendero]

144. I totally get..

... the power of language. I'm still waiting however, for a believable explanation of how turning Democratic into Democrat is anything at all other than a cheap nanny-nanny-boo-boo insult.

[Allyoop]

56. I so agree!

My daughter was a victim of cruel teasing when she was in grade school. I tried to explain to her that the more she reacted to the names that hurt her feelings, the more her taunters would use those names.
She did and they did.

It was very hard to get this message through to a six year old. I think we Democrats should be a little more mature. We can't expect the Repukes (are we allowed to say that?) to be. We have much bigger fish to fry. There's so much more of importance to discuss regarding Republican corruption and policy (born of corruption).

But I do approve of correcting the misuse of this term when Democrat talking heads are on TV as Begala did. Good way to break the Republican speaker's train of thought.

And if you choose to belabor this point when you are in personal conversations, go for it. I just get tired of seeing diaries on this day after day.

[TankLV]

98. You sure spend a lot of energy scolding us and telling us we're childish...

Just like clockwork...

Again, "thanks" for your "concern"...

But unlike the repukes and their supporters, it IS a VERY IMPORTANT issue to US DEMOCRATS!

[sandnsea]

4. oh boy

Had this argument last week. Good luck to you!

:popcorn:

[harveyc]

5. *laughing* ... Thanks ... n/t

[sandnsea]

20. noun clauses

That's the best I could figure at the time. I was arguing Democrat-controlled Congress. I'm actually not sure on the Democrat candidate, although I have a sense of what you're saying. It's the difference between identifying a specific 'aristocrat candidate' as opposed to the aristocratic characteristics of a candidate. I think.

[ProSense]

6. Flawed equation

"Hillary Clinton" = "Senator"

thus,

Senator "Hillary Clinton" = Senator "Candidate" (false)

no one would say,

Senatorial "Hillary Clinton" (no they wouldn't) nor Senatorial "Candidate" (yes they would)

Senatorial "Candidate" would be proper ... (true)

[harveyc]

8. Ok, try this ...

"Hillary Clinton" = "Senator"

Democrat "Hillary Clinton" = Democrat "Senator"

No one would say,

Democratic "Hillory Clinton" = Democratic "Senator"

[neoblues]

14. Can you use "Democrat Hillary Clinton" in a sentence?

You might be able to say "Democrat, Hillary Clinton...", but "Democrat Hillary Clinton" is wrong. "Hillary Clinton is a Democrat" is okay. In other words, your example equation is invalid in the first place.

[harveyc]

16. Democrat Hillary Clinton is running for President. ... n/t

[neoblues]

18. Missing Comma. nt.

[harveyc]

25. Nope ...

(CNN) -- If the results of a recent poll pan out, voters will see two big names from New York on the ballot in November 2008.

Those names are Democrat Hillary Clinton, the state's junior U.S. senator, and Republican Rudy Giuliani, former mayor of New York City.

[Clark2008]

75. But that's not the same thing.

Trust me, it's Democratic candidate. Democrat is a noun. Democratic is the adjective to describe the noun.

You are describing the candidate with "candidate" being the noun. Therefore, the qualifier is an adjective = Democratic candidate.

->Communications Major; English Minor<-

[ProSense]

15. Still flawed

"Hillary Clinton" = "Senator"

Democrat "Hillary Clinton" = Democrat "Senator" (false

No one would say,

Democratic "Hillory Clinton" (no they wouldn't) nor Democratic "Senator" (yes they would)



Nouns:

Democrat Hillary Clinton

Senator Hillary Clinton

Adjectives:

Senatorial candidate Hillary Clinton

Senatorial campaign

Democratic Party

Democratic campaign

No one would say Senatorial Hillary Clinton

No one would say Democratic Hillary Clinton

No on should say Democrat Party

[harveyc]

19. Define a "Democratic Senator" ...

I'll wait.

[ProSense]

21. Here

Democratic (adjective) Senator (noun) is a member of the Democratic Party

[harveyc]

23. That is BS ...

are you trying to telling us Sen. Hagel isn't "democratic?"

[ProSense]

26. You're confusing the term

Democratic (a reference to the party) with democratic (a reference to the institution of a democracy)

[harveyc]

28. Well, not really ...

Hillary is a Democrat, most people in Congress are Democratic. Thus, it is Democrat Hillary not Democratic Hillary.

[ProSense]

31. No

people in Congress belong to a democracy and support democratic principles, that's not the same as being a member of the Democratic Party. There are 49 members of Congress who do not belong to the Democratic Party; therefore, they cannot be called Democrats or Democratic Senators. They are Republican Senators.

[Sparkly]

44. I admire your patience, ProSense!

You're a Democrat who can explain nouns and adjectives in relation to the Democratic Party. Respect for each others' names should be part of a democratic society; at least, that's what this Democrat thinks.

[snowbear]

27. Hagel may be acting in a Democratic manner at times...

... but he's not a member of the Democratic Party.

And he could never be a part of the Democrat Party.... because there is no such party...

He's a Republican who sometimes handles manners in a Democratic manner.

Damn you Harv.

[sandnsea]

24. The Democrat (noun) Senator (noun)

Describing the senator as a particular "Democrat Senator", as opposed to the democratic characteristics of the senator.

:shrug:

[ProSense]

29. Same as

Presidential candidate.

It not the democratic characteristics, it's a modifier related to the Democrat (noun). Democrats belong to the Democratic Party. Democratic Senators belong to the Democratic Party. Democratic in this instance isn't about the person's democratic characteristics. Similarly, Republican (the party) isn't used to define a member of a republic.

[harveyc]

30. Democrat Senators belong to the Democratic Party ... n/t

[Sparkly]

47. Do you know the difference between a noun and an adjective?

An adjective modifies a noun. "Democratic" is an adjective. It modifies the word "Senator."

A noun is a person, place or thing. "Democrat" is a noun, as is "Senator."

"The Senator is a Democrat." (Correct.)
"The Democratic Senator..." (Correct.)
"The Democrat, Senator Clinton,..." (Correct)
"The Senator is a member of the Democratic Party" (Correct)
"The Democrat Senator" -- INCORRECT.

[Raiden]

68. Sounds like SCHOOLHOUSE ROCK

"Next time you go on a trip,
Remember this little tip:
The minute you get back,
They'll ask you this and that,
You can describe people, places and things...
Simply unpack your adjectives.
You can do it with adjectives.
Tell them 'bout it with adjectives.
You can shout it with adjectives."


OR

"Well, every person you can know (Like a bandit or an engineer)
And every place that you can go (Like a state or a home)
And anything that you can show (Like animals and plants or a train)
You know they're nouns - you know they're nouns, oh...

A noun's a special kind of word,
It's any name you ever heard,
I find it quite interesting,
A noun's a person, place, or thing."

[sandnsea]

32. Nevadans belong to Nevada

But the 'Nevada Senator' is correct. In Presidential candidate, the candidate is running for the office of President. Nevada Senator is the entire descriptor, Nevada isn't an adjective for Senator. Although I suppose if someone wanted to assign Nevadan characteristics to someone, they might use Nevadan. Like someone might use Bostonian as an adjective. But it's the Boston Mayor.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[City Lights]

45. Bingo, 48percenter!

:toast:

[snowbear]

7. Brian Williams (NBC) explained the origin of the slang "Democrat Party" tonight...

.... after dumbfuck used the term during his SOTU Address.

Williams said that back when Newt Gingrich created his "Contract for America", he insisted that from then on ---- Republicans would from that point on refer to Democrats as the "Democrat Party" because it sounds less professional, not classy, and well.... not Democratic.

These days, only the Faux-bred, Limpball listening righties still use the term for the most part and some Republicans with dignity are above using it.

JC Watts was actually =STOPPED= during one of his spiels on CNN recently by Paul Begala and told to STOP using that lame phrase. I've notice now that JC starts to say "Democrat Party".. but he does catch himself each time now and corrects himself.

We can easily smell freepers that like to use the term here because they are so blatant in their use of it...

But don't worry harvey --- I'm HOPING we've finally gotten it through your head and you'll never, ever, EVER use it again! It's just sOOOOoo LAME!!!

BTW.. Keith Olbermann talked about the dips saying it on purpose tonight too..

[k_jerome]

9. i believe it was also used by Joseph McCarthy as an insult to Democrats. nt.

[snowbear]

12. Well.. whoever the originator was...

I'm just glad that people are finally calling the Aholes out on it.

They sound like whiney little brats.

[harveyc]

13. Joe used "Democrat Candidate" also ... n/t

[harveyc]

10. I never used the term "Democrat Party" so ...

you aren't getting anything through my head. I used the term "Democrat Candidate" which is proper ...

[k_jerome]

11. nope.nt

[neoblues]

17. That's rather like saying Evangelist Candidate instead of...

Evangelical Candidate.

[sandnsea]

22. If the candidate is a specific evangelist

The "Evangelist Candidate" might well be correct.

[harveyc]

33. Democrat Candidates belong to ...

the Democratic Party. Not all Democratic Candidates belong to the Democratic Party. Simple enough?

[neoblues]

35. Democrat is a noun.

And any informed, self-respecting Democrat uses it that way.

GOP strategists christen "Democrat (sic) Party" -- and the media comply

In recent months, media figures, including news reporters at CNN, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, the Chicago Tribune, and the Associated Press echoed Republicans by employing the word "Democrat" as an adjective to describe things or people of, or relating to, the Democratic Party -- including referring to the "Democrat" Party itself, even though that is not the party's name. The ungrammatical conversion of the noun "Democrat" to an adjective was the brainchild of Republican partisans, presumably an attempt to deny the opposing party the claim to being "democratic" -- or in the words of New Yorker magazine senior editor Hendrik Hertzberg, "to deny the enemy the positive connotations of its chosen appellation." In the early 1990s, apparently due largely to the urging of then-House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-GA) and Republican pollster Frank Luntz, the use of the word "Democrat" as an adjective became near-universal among Republicans.

Hertzberg pointed out in an article for the August 7 issue of The New Yorker that the word "Democrat" is a noun, arguing that its use as an adjective defies the rules of English grammar:

The American Heritage College Dictionary, for example, defines the noun "Democratic Party" as "One of the two major US political parties, owing its origin to a split in the Democratic-Republican Party under Andrew Jackson in 1828." (It defines "Democrat n" as "A Democratic Party member" and "Democratic adj" as "Of, relating to, or characteristic of the Democratic Party," but gives no definition for -- indeed, makes no mention of -- "Democrat Party n" or "Democrat adj".) Other dictionaries, and reference works generally, appear to be unanimous on these points.

...

The article goes on to list many examples of politicians and the press mis-using Democrat as an adjective.

[harveyc]

40. This is clear incorrect ...

How many times have you seen Democratic Hillary Clinton?

Democrat (adj.) Hillary Clinton is the proper usage.

[Sparkly]

50. No, in that case it's still being used as a noun.

As I explained further in post 48.

[Guaranteed]

107. Senator Hillary Clinton. Senator is a noun, not an adjective.

Democrat Hillary Clinton, Democrat = noun.

[TreasonousBastard]

37. Ya know, I'm not convinced "Democrat Party" is a slur...

I've heard the BBC say it and several Southern Democrats have said it. Seems to me it's more regional than anything else.

Both "Democrat" and "Republican" are nouns, although "Republican" is also an adjective at times and probably started out that way.

I would have to find long lost copies of Strunk&White and the NY TImes style manual to get a clue what the proper grammar is, but I suspect "Democrat Party" has been in use in some parts for a long time now.

Meanwhile, I trust the BBC to be a bit more anal about proper grammar than most US sources.

[ClassWarrior]

39. That's the power of framing. People end up passing on a slur...

...inadvertantly, people who have no intent of slurring whatsoever.

NGU.

[Evergreen Emerald]

43. that is exactly right.

That is why I am opposed to simply ignoring the slur. It should not be tolerated.

[Sparkly]

49. I agree. nt

[Odin2005]

85. I think it originated as mistaken grammer, but got turned into a slur.

I think the BBC used "Democrat" mistakenly because of all the European parties that called themselves the "Social Democrat Party" and "Christian Democrat Party."

[sendero]

110. I 'm with you..

.... I just don't get how this is a slur. "Democrat" "Democratic" So what?

I can see how it might be slighly disrespectful, but some huge hidden subliminal framing slur? Puhlease.

[DuaneBidoux]

141. subliminal framing slur? Exactly

This is exactly what it is. Salon recently did an excellent piece on how this started. There are most definately subliminal intent as well as an over attempt to slur.

[sendero]

143. I've heard the explations..

... they are either over my head or they are total bullshit. I'm betting on the latter.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

38. Aaargh... Let me see... I think this is wrong, but I'm not sure.

I think your claim that "candidate" and "Hillary Clinton" are equivalent is wrong.

Democrat Hillary Clinton said today that... works
Democrat candidate said today that... doesn't work, it needs an article.

In the construction "X Hillary Clinton said...", X can be a noun. "Woman Hillary Clinton said..." is good grammar, "Female Hillary Clinton said..." is technically correct, but very weird usage.

I think "The female candidate said" is better usage than "the woman candidate said", although the latter may be technically correct.

So I think "the Democratic candidate" is probably better than "The Democrat candidate". I'm a mathematican, not a linguist, though.

[ms liberty]

42. Wrong - it's Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton...

I am a democrat. I am a member of the Democratic Party. Senator Hillary Clinton is a democrat, and a member of the Democratic Party. She is also a candidate for the Democratic Party's nomination for President in 2008. She is a Democratic candidate for President.

[harveyc]

46. From NPR ...

--- The Week in Politics: Pelosi's Moment
by Juan Williams, Alex Chadwick and Luke Burbank

Day to Day, January 5, 2007 · As Democrat Nancy Pelosi takes the stage as the first female speaker of the House, spin doctors on both sides of the political fence are working overtime. How can Pelosi capitalize on her new role, and how will she handle the issue of Iraq?

[Sparkly]

48. That's correct.

"Pianist Vladimir Horowitz."
"Spokesman Tony Snow."
"President Al Gore."

Pianist, spokesman, and president are all nouns. So is "Democrat."

[harveyc]

51. Democrat William Clinton ...

The White House Historical Association:

"In 1992 he lost his bid for re-election to Democrat William Clinton."

http://www.whitehousehistory.org/05/subs/05_a21.html

[Sparkly]

52. Yes, that's correct.

I just explained it to you.

Democrat William Clinton was a Democratic president. "Democrat" is still a noun.

[harveyc]

53. I just showed you ...

2 authoritative examples of where, first, it is proper usage and, second, it is used as an adjective.

Democrat Candidate -- refers to a candidate of the Democratic Party

Democratic Candidate -- refers to a candidate whom believes in democratic principles.

[Sparkly]

54. Actually, you didn't.

There is no correct usage of "Democrat Candidate." The word Democrat is simply not an adjective.

"Democratic" with a capital "D" and "democratic" with a lowercase "d" are different words.

In the case of "Democrat Hillary Clinton," the word "Democrat" is STILL a noun.

[harveyc]

57. No correct usage of "Democrat Candidate?" ...

You ought to inform CBS/AP about this.

Democrat Candidate Flays Congress GOP
Patty Wetterling Says Republicans Swept Foley Scandal 'Under The Rug'

(CBS/AP) Democratic congressional candidate Patty Wetterling, whose son was abducted 17 years ago, said GOP congressional leadership failed to protect teenage House pages from former Rep. Mark Foley's advances.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/07/politics/main2072360.shtml

[City Lights]

58. First line of your article:

Democratic congressional candidate Patty Wetterling,

The headline is wrong. Email them and let their editor know.

[harveyc]

59. Sure, I will tell them I heard it from you. ... n/t

[Sparkly]

61. Tell 'em you heard it from Mirriam-Webster.

Main Entry: dem·o·crat
Pronunciation: 'de-m&-"krat
Function: noun
1 a : an adherent of democracy b : one who practices social equality
2 capitalized : a member of the Democratic party of the United States

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/Democrat

[City Lights]

63. Don't bother. I already told 'em.

:P

[Sparkly]

60. Yup, it's wrong.

And yes, we're seeing it more and more. That's why it's so annoying -- there's an effort to make it "accepted usage."

AP articles are often titled by whoever is publishing them. (The AP did write "Democratic congressional candidate"...)

Even Fox got this one right:
Democratic Congressional Candidate Criticizes GOP Over Foley
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,218577,00.html

Here's WaPo:
Democrat Jabs GOP Over Foley Matter
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/09/AR2006100900969.html

Those are correct. "Democrat Candidate" is not.

[MaineDem]

64. Democrat is not an adjective

Using it as such is incorrect.

And media usage does not make it right.

[New Earth]

146. the perfect example was Presidential Candidate.

exact same thing.

You would say "President Gore", but NOT "President Candidate".

You would say "Presidential Candidate".....

which is why it should be "Democratic Candidate".

That is really all that needs to be said. Democrat candidate is not gramatically correct. It is just like saying "President Candidate".

[ms liberty]

55. You're deliberately missing the point...

Yes - NPR is correct: Speaker Pelosi is a Democrat. She is a member of the Democratic Party.

[DuaneBidoux]

142. Democrat Nancy Pelosi ? This is called a "noun phrase"

Here is how you can convince me: find any dictionary that defines Democrat as an adjective.

It should be enough, in any case, that most Democrats find it offensive for you to decide to use it in its traditional sense.

[Ursus Rex]

62. the "Democrat" in the phrase "Democrat Hillary Clinton" is an appositive...

... I believe

in that construction, "Democrat" is an appositive noun that renames the proper noun next to it ("appositive" means "near") - since it appears not to be used as the adjectival name of the Party she belongs to (OK: "to which she belongs"), it is appropriate

if you say, "the Democrat candidate Clinton," you have either punctuated incorrectly ("the Democrat, candidate Clinton"), or more likely, you need to revise the usage and context that could lead to ambiguity or even offense (at least, if you want to avoid either one)

I don't have my copy of Curme at my desk, but that's the gist of it from my days as a composition teacher

edited: because I combined "phrase" and "parse" in the subject, which would have made me look silly

[MaineDem]

65. Welcome to DU

And thanks for correcting the usage of phrase and parse. We can't have you looking silly when you just got here, now, can we? :)

[Ursus Rex]

66. thanks!

I've actually been around for almost 6 years (4+ under the current name), but I still know that Silly Cops are brutal and quick to shoot around here, especially with emerging lurkers ;)

[harveyc]

69. This Democrat must be a lurker ...

A Democrat Mayor and educator too.

"My name is Larry Baker. I am the Democrat candidate for the Missouri House of Representatives, District 147. I am a retired educator and am the former Mayor of Cabool, MO."


http://www.lwb147.org/

[MaineDem]

70. You can cite all you want

Doesn't make the usage correct.

Apparently, Mr Baker needs a better proofreader.

[harveyc]

71. We need more proofreaders I guess ...

"WELCOME to the official web site of the Barbara Bobo for Congress Campaign. Barbara is the Democrat candidate for the House of Representatives in Alabama's Fourth District, which stretches across the north central part of the state from border to border. She is opposing incumbent Congressman Robert Aderholt."

http://www.barbaraboboforcongress.com/

[MaineDem]

72. Appears so. n/t

[Ursus Rex]

73. After scanning this thread, between you and I ...

... I have to say that making common mistakes doesn't mean they're not mistakes - or unconscious repetition of a frame that McCarthy and Gingrich - both! - endorsed and practiced

ps: I'm from Alabama, and believe me, that's far from an authoritative usage

[Redneck Socialist]

67. Survey says? Bzzzzzzt!

You're wrong, but thanks for playing.

Democrat is a noun, Democratic is an adjective. Don't use puke language.

[harveyc]

74. NDC -- New "Democrat Coalition"

Somebody better write them also to change the name of the "Democrat organization", huh? How can so many be so wrong?

"Co-Chair Ron Kind (D-WI) noted that “as predicted, many of the gains on Tuesday came from centrist, New Democrat candidates."


http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/ca10_tauscher/NDCMEMBERSELECT.html

[harveyc]

76. Thanks for playing, this issue is now moot ...

If anyone has a problem with "Democrat Candidate", "Democrat Coalition", "Democrat Anything" please contact the NDC, New Democrat Coalition, on their web site ...

http://www.house.gov/tauscher/ndc/

Until it is called the "New Democratic Coalition" ... I'll rest my case.

[MaineDem]

79. If declaring victory makes you feel better, so be it

After all, it's been done before; therefore, it must be accurate.

[City Lights]

80. The "New Democrat Coalition" is the name they've chosen for their

coalition. See, each word is capitalized, so it's different. It's not the same as saying "new Democrat coalition." It's a coalition made of what they call "new" Democrats, so they've chosen New Democrat Coalition as their name. In this case, Democrat isn't used to describe the type of coalition, so the ic isn't necessary. Rather, New is used to describe Democrat.

Even the New Democrat Coalition gets it. From your link:

2/6/2006
New Democrat Coalition Re-elects Leadership; Releases Detailed Agenda for 110th Congress - Today, in preparation for the Democratic Majority, the New Democrat Coalition

[harveyc]

82. If you say so ...

Now back to the original argument, how is "Democrat Candidate" wrong again?

[City Lights]

83. Because you're using a noun where an adjective should be used.

Hillary Clinton is a candidate for president. She is a presidential candidate. She is not a "president candidate."

Hillary Clinton is a Democrat who is running for president. She is a Democratic presidential candidate. She is not a "Democrat president candidate."

See? It's easy. :-)

[harveyc]

84. Really? I see ...

Please apply your rules, with caps and all to, "Democrat Coalition" when it should have been "Democratic Coalition" according to your rules.

"Democrat Coalition" is ok, but "Democrat Candidate", which the co-chair of the NDC also used is wrong?

Maybe, making up rules as you go?

[Sparkly]

88. "NEW Democrat Coalition"

A coalition of New Democrats.

Not a new coalition of Democrats.

If the coalition were new, it'd be "New Democratic Coalition."

But it's the Democrats who are "new" (or claim to be) so "new" modifies the NOUN, "Democrat."

Democrat is NOT an adjective describing "coalition."

[City Lights]

94. "New Democrat candidate" is not the same as "new Democrat candidate."

Capitalization indicates the name of a group or organization.

Many of Tuesday's gains came from New Democrat candidates. The candidates who made gains were part of some group called, New Democrats. The candidates from the New Democrats are New Democrat candidates. However, they are not, new Democrat candidates.

[DuaneBidoux]

77. Democratic candidate. Democratic Senate, etc.

I don't care what you say, grammar says that the word "democratic" is an adjective.

It is really quite simple: ask yourself, is the word functioning as an adjective or a noun? If it is a noun, then "democrat" is correct. If it is an adjective, then "democratic" is proper. It is really that simple.

When you say a "democrat senator" then you are grammatically wrong. Period.

[harveyc]

78. Contact the NDC ... let them know ... n/t

[harveyc]

86. Nope, you are wrong ...

--- Using a noun as a modifier is not grammatically incorrect in modern English. For example, a noun is used as an adjective in "shoe store," "school bus," "peace movement," "Senate election," etc. Americans commonly speak of "the Iraq war" rather than "the Iraqi war." - -- Walker (2005); Master the Basics: English by Jean Yatets, 1996, page 64.


According to you, we won't have anymore "peace candidates." :(

Note the use of "Iraq war" also. Even the Congress gets in on this:


--- IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

January 10, 2007
Mr. RANGEL submitted the following concurrent resolution; which was referred to the Committee on Armed Services

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CONCURRENT RESOLUTION
Calling for the removal of all restrictions from the public, the press, and military families in mourning that would prohibit their presence at the arrival at military installations in the United States or overseas of the remains of the Nation's fallen heroes, the members of the Armed Forces who have died in Iraq or Afghanistan, with the assurance that family requests for privacy will be respected.

Whereas the truest heroes of the Iraq War are the members of the United States Armed Forces who have made the ultimate sacrifice of their lives on behalf of their country;

[Sparkly]

89. The fact that some words work as both nouns and adjectives

doesn't mean that all do.

Some take a suffix (like "ic" or "ial" or "ory") to be an adjective; some take "ion" or "ing" etc. to be a noun.

The dictionary is clear: Democrat is a noun; Democratic is an adjective. PERIOD.

[harveyc]

91. I'll bet you have used "Peace movement" or "Peace candidate" ...

or even "Iraq war" ... right?

[Sparkly]

92. Sure. But not "Democrat candidate." nt

[harveyc]

93. So you violate your "rule" ...

when it is convenient for you. Peace is a noun, Candidate is a noun, Movement is a noun, Iraq is a noun, War is a noun, etc. etc.


Using a noun as a modifier is not grammatically incorrect in modern English.

[Sparkly]

95. No, because "Democratic" is the adjective in this case.

"Peace" in "Peace Movement" is modifying the word "movement." What other adjective is there? Peaceful? That doesn't describe the movement. Peacious? Peacical? "Peace," here, describes the movement.

"Iraq War" is an example of a war named for the country in which it's fought. Hence, the previous fiasco was known as the "Vietnam War," not the "Vietnamese War." (Of course, there was also the "Franco-Prussian War," so I guess war names vary.)

Below, you mentioned "school bus" and "shoe store." These are other good examples. What are the adjectives for "school" and "shoe?" I don't know of any. Schoolish? Shoeial? School-destined? Shoe-stocking?

The word "Democrat," however, has a perfectly fine adjective form: "Democratic."

[harveyc]

96. You forgot ...

... Peaceable, interesting.

There are probably 1000's of nouns being used as modifiers in modern english, with and without what you call a "perfectly fine adjective."

It is becoming apparent you are trying to redefine the use of nouns as modifiers, specifically democrat, to support an agenda and not grammatically correct modern English.

[Sparkly]

97. "to support an agenda..."

What agenda would that be?

[harveyc]

99. I have no idea, but

for some reason you don't like the noun democrat, specifically, being used as a modifier and yet grammatically correct in modern English.

Why is that?

What other nouns don't your "rules" support for use as modifiers.

[Sparkly]

100. You have no idea?

It has been explained to you in this thread, several times.

They aren't my "rules."

Why is this so important to you? You've spent quite a lot of time and energy defending this new GOP push for "Democrat" as an adjective. Why?

[harveyc]

103. Because we should be ...

discussing serious issues like the Iraq war, not some goofy notion that democrat is the only noun in modern English that shouldn't be used as a modifier.

[Sparkly]

112. Oh, the irony....

"We should be discussing serious issues like the Iraq war" -- yet you started this thread and argued it into a looooong discussion.

If you've started threads and spent this much attention on serious issues like the Iraq war, I missed it.

(And I'm not sure it's worth pointing out to you again that "Democrat" is not the "only" noun that isn't also an adjective. :eyes: You're looking for rules to apply to each and every word in the vocabulary uniformly, and that just doesn't work with the English language.)

So the question remains: Why is this SO important to you?

[TankLV]

101. At least we now see where you got you hundred post count...

just join up a week ago to lecture US on how WE should accept what WE are called...

again, like that idiot from illinoise, thanks for your phoney "concern"...

we can see what you're TRYING to do, it ain't workin...

[harveyc]

102. I see ...

grammatically correct modern English means nothing to you and you aren't the only democrat whom doesn't use it as a modifier ... "Democrat Coalition."

[Sparkly]

113. "grammatically correct modern English..."

You might want to have an English major check that post for you, among others on this thread. :rofl:

[City Lights]

114. LOL, Sparkly!

I'm wondering if "new-cue-ler" is an example of "modern English." :rofl:

[Sparkly]

115. It depends on whom is saying it.

Some say it's wrong no matter whom says it, but others make exception for the preznit, whom has a special problem with the language...

[TankLV]

149. no.

1) WE doubt that you are part of "us".
2) WE get to decide what WE should be called, not YOU or your fellow repuke friends...
3) YOU spend a lot of time and energy on nonsense lecturing US after just joining up, which get's us back to #1...

[July]

81. Incorrect.

No matter how many mistaken uses of "Democrat" you are able to find, they are still grammatically incorrect. The important point in Republicans' use of "Democrat Party," however, is that they are not using the party's actual name. In addition, they are avoiding doing so intentionally. If you introduce yourself as "Charlie," you don't appreciate it when people start calling you "Chuck." Whatever the party has named itself is what it should be called -- at least, if the speaker wishes to appear polite and to speak grammatically. Apparently, Republicans wish to do neither.

I have edited many books and articles, and I assure you that your examples are incorrect. Sparkly has explained why in replies to your post.

Why are you searching for examples of this bad usage? Why does our correcting the Republicans' intentional error bother you? And why do you tell us that "apologizes" are welcomed (can't help myself!)?

[harveyc]

90. You edited books?

Did you ever use "school bus", "shoe store", "peace candidate", "Senate election", "Iraq war", etc. etc. etc.?

Maybe you have a link to something you edited, protecting your identity of course?

[neoblues]

104. More Authoritative Proof "Democrat Candidate" is Wrong.

Center for Media & Democracy
SourceWatch:Manual of Style

"Democrat" vs. "Democratic"

Using the proper name for a political party in the proper situation is important. In American politics there are two dominant parties, the Republican Party and the Democratic Party. Often mistakes are made in labeling candidates and members of Congress in the Democratic Party. The most common error occurs in the decision to use the word "Democrat" vs. "Democratic" in reference to a member of Congress or candidate for office. For many this could arise from the confusion of the adjective "Democratic" used as a proper noun.

The Democratic Party has been officially been called the Democratic Party since the 1844 Democratic National Convention. Thus, despite the possible confusion of noun or adjective all references to the party ought to refer to the Democratic Party as that is the proper name for the party. There is no such thing as the "Democrat Party" therefore a reference to the "Democrat Senator" would refer to a Senator from a nonexistent political party. The word "Democratic" should precede all nouns referencing the party, party organizations, or party affiliation (e.g. Democratic Senator Ted Kennedy; member of the Democratic Party; Democratic candidate for office). The word Democrat should be used only as a noun in reference to persons in the party (Many Democrats think...; Massachusetts Democrat Ted Kennedy; Republicans and Democrats disagree...) and never as a modifier.

In following with these rules, candidates for election and sitting members of Congress should be referred to as the "Democratic " and not as the "Democrat ". When the noun "Democrat" is required it ought to be used. When referring to the Republican Party or candidates/members therein use of the word Republican (over GOP or GOPer) is always preferred.

For more background on the use of "Democrat" vs. "Democratic" see this New Yorker article, THE “IC” FACTOR.

See phrase above, in red.

Of course, the previously posted review by Media Matters For America entitled GOP strategists christen "Democrat (sic) Party", which includes examples of the media's misuse (the sort of things on which the o.p. has relied for evidence).

They used the following list of invalid uses of "Democrat":
"democrat party or democrat primary or democrat candidate or democrat strategy or democrat strategist or democrat response or democrat lawmaker or democrat congress! or democrat representative or democrat senate! or democrat member or democrat caucus or democrat house or democrat proposal or democrat bill or democrat politic! or democrat plan or democrat legislator! or democrat tactic or democrat ploy or democrat statement or democrat press or democrat release or democrat claim or democrat agenda or democrat talking point or democrat nominee!"

Also, they reference the article by New Yorker Magazine Senior Editor Hendrik Hertzberg, who pointed out "that the word "Democrat" is a noun, arguing that its use as an adjective defies the rules of English grammar".

Somehow, I would trust the thinking of a Senior Editor of the New Yorker on this matter more than I do you or your inane "proof" (Q.E.D.** it was not).

We all agree that "Democrat Party" is a pejorative political epithet used by Republicans. It almost defies belief that anyone is unable (and/or unwilling) to recognize that "Democrat Candidate" is just another variant of the same concept. At the very least, it would seem that such "Democrats" would admit that a majority of other Democrats perceive it to be either a misuse or a pejorative/partisan usage or both and consider whether or not they might have a point. Simply telling them they're wrong when they have as much or more evidence on their side suggests a closed mind.

That said, while the point that "Democrat" is a noun and "Democratic" is an adjective has been made repeatedly--and it's absolutely true and relevant, English usage is notoriously filled with exceptions and it's not uncommon for there to be cases in which even seemingly hard and fast rules are disputed (at least by a minority of experts). It "modern English", it turns out many older rules are fading into disuse. It also is true that that nouns can sometimes be used as modifiers. It's often awkward to the point of being obvious, but sometimes it's the common usage. In our particular case, however, even if one doesn't perceive or admit the improper usage (probably owing to being conditioned to the usage by the frequent examples in the media--which are considered to be a consequence of the creeping partisan influence), there very much is a partisan agenda in place to promote the "improper" usage as well as the "questionable" usage.

We should resist both. The Democratic Party itself considers the word "Democrat" to be a noun, and generally resists usage such as "Democrat Candidate" (though as the o.p. has taken pains to point out, there are Democrats who have used this phrasing).

Despite the Republican's deliberate campaign and the innocent questionable uses, considering just the phrases in question...

"Democrat Candidate" Google returns 260,000 hits,

"Democratic Candidate" Google returns 1,200,000 hits.

So, "Democratic Candidate" is still the more common usage. Not that this proves anything. Still, if we want to preserve the proper usage/resist the improper usages such as "Democrat Party", we should avoid using the noun to modify nouns.


**"Q.E.D. is an abbreviation of the Latin phrase "quod erat demonstrandum" (literally, "which was to be demonstrated"). In simple terms, the use of this Latin phrase is to indicate that something has been definitively proven."

Edit: added the word Google before "returns"...

[TheDonkey]

106. good link that should be faxed to the boneheads at the RNC

but I doubt they can even read.

[harveyc]

116. A fun "parlor game" to play!

Played it last night. Noun (modifier) / noun is way too easy, thousands in modern English. So played with noun modifiers having "useful" adjectives.

golf ball, truck driver, peace talks, farm worker, ski lodge, surf board, skate board, ... ad nausea.

Expand golf: golf ball, golf hat, golf cart, golf shirt, golf score, golf association, golf umbrella, ...

Expand truck: truck driver, truck tire, truck route, truck parts, truck garage, ...

Expand peace: peace talks, peace sign, peace treaty, peace movement, peace candidate, peace negotiations, ...

You get the idea. Enjoy!

or you can just bury your head in the sand regarding the correct use of noun modifiers in modern English.

[harveyc]

117. Googling ...

"democrat bill" -- 163,000

"democratic bill" -- 41,900

[DCal]

119. That's because of Bill Clinton, Bill Ritter, etc.

Democrat Bill Clinton comes up 40,000 times, Bill Ritter 22,000 times. Bill Nelson 19,500 times. That covers over 1/2 of the references right there.

[TheDonkey]

105. Rethugs once again show they are out of ideas and are desperate to coin "Democrat Party"

as a pejorative for the actual name of the party which is the Democratic Party. Whether you want to call Clinton a Democrat or a Democratic candidate that does not change the fact that the party's name is the Democratic Party.

[snowbear]

108. Media Matters did a thorough review of (so called) journalists using that bogus term..

GOP strategists christen "Democrat Party" -- and the media comply
Summary: Several media figures, including news reporters, echoed Republicans by employing the word "Democrat" as an adjective to refer to things or people of, or relating to, the Democratic Party.
In recent months, media figures, including news reporters at CNN, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, the Chicago Tribune, and the Associated Press echoed Republicans by employing the word "Democrat" as an adjective to describe things or people of, or relating to, the Democratic Party -- including referring to the "Democrat" Party itself, even though that is not the party's name.

The rest .... http://mediamatters.org/items/200608160005

They also included a clip of several journalist saying "Democrat party" or "Democrat candidate"..

[harveyc]

118. Bogus term? The "Parlor game" ... democrat noun modifier ...

democrat: democrat logo, democrat gifts, democrat motion, democrat shirts, democrat bill, democrat coalition (NDC - New Democrat Coalition, H.R.) ...

Google, since it was used previously as a "standard" ...

"democrat logo" -- 26,900
"democratic logo" -- 835

"democrat gifts" -- 12,100
"democratic gifts" -- 535

"democrat motion" -- 9,120
"democratic motion" -- 998

"democrat shirts" -- 4,330
"democratic shirts" -- 317

"democrat bill" -- 163,000
"democratic bill" -- 41,900


"Using a noun as a modifier is not grammatically incorrect in modern English."

[City Lights]

109. Jon Stewart brought this up to snotty scotty last night.

The repubics know it's wrong and they use it incorrectly on purpose.

[snowbear]

120. Senator Max Baucus (D-MT) just said "Republic Committee" on the floor of the Senate !!!

(According to Katsy on General Discussion who must be tuning in to C-Span )

WhooooOoo HOoOOoo ~~~ Good for Max!

Take that Harvey!!

[athena]

121. You don't read much, do you?

A reader would never make such a crazy argument. You need to learn about "nouns in apposition": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appositive

"Democrat Hillary Clinton ..." is an example of "nouns in apposition". Note that if you have a situation where Hillary Clinton is the only Democrat present, you would have to add two commas: "The Democrat, Hillary Clinton, ...."

Note also that "nouns in apposition" is different from "nouns used as adjectives". A noun can only be used as an adjective if it doesn't have an adjective form that works. For example, "fruit juice" is correct, but "freshness juice" isn't. Saying "Democrat Candidate" is like saying "freshness juice"; it makes you sound uneducated.

[harveyc]

122. Uneducated? Oh my ...

Noun modifier ...

democrat: democrat logo, democrat gifts, democrat motion, democrat shirts, democrat bill, democrat coalition (NDC - New Democrat Coalition, H.R.) ...



"Using a noun as a modifier is not grammatically incorrect in modern English."

[harveyc]

123. Re: "democrat hillary clinton" ... democrat noun modifier ...

Since Google was offered as a measure of usage here ...

"democrat Hillary Clinton" -- 17,100
"democratic Hillary Clinton" -- 133

Reading is good for you.

[athena]

124. You really don't read, do you?

Once again, "Democrat Hillary Clinton" is not wrong; it is a case of "nouns in apposition."

"Democrat candidate" is not a case of "nouns in apposition". It is simply wrong. But go ahead and use it if you want to sound uneducated.

[harveyc]

125. Obviously not wrong ...

democrat as a noun modifier is grammatically correct in modern English ...

democrat candidate, democrat logo, democrat bill, democrat motion, etc. etc.

just like ... golf/golfing ...

golf ball, golf score, golf cart, golf shirt, etc. etc.

Do you ever say Iraq war or Vietnam war?

[Sparkly]

126. OMG, you're cracking me up!

Are you pretending to be obtuse for the fun of making people nuts?

AGAIN: The fact that SOME nouns work that way does not mean ALL nouns work that way.

:rofl:

[harveyc]

127. What nouns don't work that way? Maybe this will help clear it up. ...

Peace candidate, truck drive, school bus, shoe box, food store, movie theater, hair dresser, etc. ...?

[Sparkly]

134. "Republic."

Also, off the top of my head:

Moron (moronic)
Idiot (idiotic)
Fool (foolish)
Argument (argumentative)

Oh, and did I mention Democrat? :rofl:

[MaineDem]

129. LOL

Your arguments make no sense. "Democratic Hillary Clinton" is ludicrous. The fact that there are 133 instances of those words on Google means that there are 133 ignorant writers.

This is really quite humorous.

[Infinite Hope]

128. Democrat (noun) "Hillary Clinton" vs. Democratic (adjective) "Candidate"

So your comparison wasn't the same. That being said, all the fuss over the Democrat vs. Democratic is childish to me on both sides. The Republicans are being children trying to rile up Democrats and they're succeeding.

[Rebellious Republican]

130. Member since Jan 07th 2007, Number of posts 164, well that settles

it, with such infinite wisdom, knowledge and longevity, you have convinced me!

:sarcasm:

[knowledgeispwr]

131. What?

Number of posts has nothing to do with what they say. Yes, this person is incorrect in their post, but number of posts is irrelevant.

'Number of posts' is a point people turn to when they can't address what the person is saying.

[Rebellious Republican]

136. see my reply #135 below to Infinite Hope N/T

:think:

[Infinite Hope]

132. While the original poster is wrong, it's not because they're new.

Arguing on the basis of length of time on DU does nothing to address the issue at hand. Duration at DU is hardly a measure of education, credibility, or rightness.

[Rebellious Republican]

135. Well, her is my view, I have been arround since almost the beginning

I remember in the early days when trolls used to come around DU, and were very blatant and bold about what they were doing here. Over time they found out that it was an extremely ineffective approach as they would be tomb stoned immediately upon arrival.

Over time they have wised up, they changed their tactics, coming in to these forums making simple little comments they knew would start flame wars. Take this thread, as an example, what good purpose does it serve? Other than the flame baiting as it has.

Flame wars that would take the focus off real issues, as in the Immoral, illegal, unjustified Iraq War, The White House committing treason outing CIA operatives for political gain, just to name a few.

We are kicking off the campaign season, trolls will be visiting often just to divide and conquer us.

When I was new around here, I took many verbal assaults, especially with a pseudonym like mine. I was just coming over from the dark side; yes I am a former republican. Or would I be more correct if I said I was former "Republic". So yes, like it or not, longevity does play into how people perceive things.

If the poster is not a troll, then they will learn, like I did, that sometimes we will get flamed for our opinion.

So if you agree with their statement I guess you should take some English composition classes. You should learn the difference between Nouns and adjectives.


:think: RR

[Infinite Hope]

138. Interesting.

When I first read it, I wondered if it could be someone of another political persuasion. I find threads like that now and then. But I refrain from accusing them of that because I fear chastising one of our own. I myself have been chastised for political views I've expressed because I've "only" been here since September as if that itself is qualification to be a Democrat.

So unless there's evidence of a multiple questionable posts by a particular person, it's probably best not to alienate our own. Search out other posts by them and see if it looks like they're legitimate. The main poster seemed to really believe they had a right comparison by comparing Democrat Hillary to Democrat Candidate. That didn't quite sound like someone trying to instigate anything, but rather someone who, in error, thought they were being grammatically correct.

[Sparkly]

133. And remember, the purpose of this thread

is to stop debating things like this, and spend more time debating topics like the Iraq war, according to the OP.

[Rebellious Republican]

137. My point exactly, Sparkly, I guess my sarcasm was not so obvious.

:toast:

[Infinite Hope]

139. ...

Your sarcasm was picked up and your point taken, but it still remains that you were picking out someone based upon their lack of longevity here and that isn't necessarily the best course given only one questionable post.

[Rebellious Republican]

140. OK, you win!

[harveyc]

145. Ok, I have submitted this question ...

to several other less emotional forums. Findings ...

1.) "Democrat Party" is not correct since the official name of the party is "Democratic Party."

2.) "democrat" (n.) can be used in a noun modifier form the same as "democratic" (adj.) is used in an adjectival form.

3.) Otherwise, "democrat" would be the only noun in modern English that could not be used in the noun modifier form.

If you don't believe this, please provide a modern English noun, besides democrat, that cannot be used in a noun modifier form?

ps -- apposition is a noun construction and doesn't apply to noun modified nor adjectival forms. Iraq War is not an apposition, it is the noun modified form of the adjectival form, Iraqi War. Both are correct.

[MaineDem]

147. How about...

the difference between calling someone a "Jewish doctor" and a "Jew doctor". Jew is a noun. Jewish is an adjective. The second form is considered a slur.

In any case, you can submit the question all you want to try and justify your logic. If you're happy with the result, fine. I think I'll move on.

[harveyc]

148. I used the term ...

"Democrat Candidate" and had no intention nor forethought to demean anyone.

Since I was a kid I recall seeing roadside posters saying "Democrat Candidate for ..."

Democrats today still use it.

Obviously, I will not use it again since it is such a sensitive and emotional issue.