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sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 09:53 PM
Original message
Does Wes Clark endorse the PNAC plan?
Origins of Regime Change in Iraq
Proliferation Brief, Volume 6, Number 5
Wednesday, March 19, 2003

Long before September 11, before the first inspections in Iraq had started, a small group of influential officials and experts in Washington were calling for regime change in Iraq. Some never wanted to end the 1991 war. Many are now administration officials. Their organization, dedication and brilliance offer much to admire, even for those who disagree with the policies they advocate.

We have assembled on our web site links to the key documents produced since 1992 by this group, usually known as neo-conservatives, and analysis of their efforts. They offer a textbook case of how a small, organized group can determine policy in a large nation, even when the majority of officials and experts originally scorned their views.

In the Beginning

In 1992, Paul Wolfowitz, then-under secretary of defense for policy, supervised the drafting of the Defense Policy Guidance document. Wolfowitz had objected to what he considered the premature ending of the 1991 Iraq War. In the new document, he outlined plans for military intervention in Iraq as an action necessary to assure "access to vital raw material, primarily Persian Gulf oil" and to prevent the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and threats from terrorism.

The guidance called for preemptive attacks and ad hoc coalitions but said that the U.S. should be ready to act alone when "collective action cannot be orchestrated." The primary goal of U.S. policy should be to prevent the rise of any nation that could challenge the United States. When the document leaked to the New York Times, it proved so extreme that it had to be rewritten. These concepts are now part of the new U.S. National Security Strategy.

Links to Likud

In 1996, Richard Perle, Douglas Feith and David Wurmser, now administration officials, joined in a report to the newly elected Likud government in Israel calling for "a clean break" with the policies of negotiating with the Palestinians and trading land for peace. They said "Israel can shape its strategic environment…by weakening, containing and even rolling back Syria. This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq…Iraq's future could affect the strategic balance in the Middle East profoundly." They called for "reestablishing the principle of preemption."

In 1998, 18 prominent conservatives wrote a letter to President Clinton urging him to "aim at the removal of Saddam Hussein's regime from power." Most of these experts are now officials in the administration, including Elliot Abrams, Richard Armitage, John Bolton, Paula Dobriansky, Zalmay Khalilzad, Richard Perle, Donald Rumsfeld, and Paul Wolfowitz.

A Rising Chorus

(snip)

Neo-conservative writers began to urge regime change as part of a larger strategy for remaking the Middle East. In June 2002, Michael Kelly wrote that a democratic Iraq and Palestine "will revolutionize the power dynamic in the Middle East…A majority of Arabs will come to see America as the essential ally."

"Change toward democratic regimes in Tehran and Baghdad would unleash a tsunami across the Islamic world," claimed Joshua Muravchik in August of that year. Michael Ledeen on September 4, 2002, called for the US to launch "a vast democratic revolution to liberate all the peoples of the Middle East…It is impossible to imagine that the Iranian people would tolerate tyranny in their own country once freedom had come to Iraq. Syria would follow in short order."

Democracy experts, including Carnegie's Tom Carothers, call this vision "a dangerous fantasy." But on September 12, President Bush embraced the strategy when he told the United Nations, "The people of Iraq can shake off their captivity. They can one day join a democratic Afghanistan and a democratic Palestine, inspiring reforms throughout the Muslim world." The president seems to have absorbed the entire expansive strategy. Now, for him, regime change in Iraq is not the end, it is just the beginning.

From: The Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

Joseph Cirincione is a Senior Associate and Director of the Non-Proliferation Project at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

http://www.ceip.org/files/nonprolif/templates/Publications.asp?p=8&PublicationID=1214


From the official Clark website:

After the storm we must wait for blue skies

General (ret.) Wesley K. Clark
May 1, 2003

Times of London

AFTER the thunderstorm of Iraqi freedom, it is only natural that it should take time before blue skies appear. But the fight was never just about weapons of mass destruction, whatever the rhetoric. Rather, the war was the inauguration of a new US strategy for the region.

The strategy begins with Iraq, where more than 100,000 US troops, and hopefully 15-20,000 Brits, will help Iraq to achieve a democratic government that is anti-terrorist and will turn over any weapons of mass destruction.

No theocracy. It may be difficult - already more troops have been ordered in to help to secure Baghdad - but the Secretary of Defense has said that we are not leaving until it is done.

Then there is Syria, long-branded a terrorist state. Those troops in Iraq send out a strong signal. The case against Bashir al-Assad is mounting. That pressure alone may force change in Syria. Already it has closed its borders with Iraq, turned in at least one Iraqi official and vowed to expand co-operation.

The visit to Damascus by Colin Powell, the Secretary of State, might extract more, although the list of potential demands - expelling Hezbollah, leaving Lebanon, ending support for terrorism and giving up chemical weapons - is certainly more than Syria will agree to, short of some larger regional settlement. But the more Syria resists, the easier to justify US actions, at least to an American public still recovering from the September 11 attacks on the United States.

Next is Iran, supporting terrorism and needing perhaps another two to three years to assemble its first nuclear weapon. The strategy here will be to act indirectly, weakening the mullahs by cutting off support to Hezbollah and attempting to fuel internal resistance. A pre-emptive strike against nuclear facilities remains an option, perhaps a bit in the future.

Then there is Saudi Arabia. Here the strategy is to reduce the US presence in order to free the Saudis to take stiffer measures against their own extremists. This is feasible now that the US is inside Iraq and, with the promise of Iraqi oil, has the advantage of suggesting to the Saudi Government that it is no longer so indispensable to the US.

Finally, there remains the challenge of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. There the Administration is proceeding on two fronts: directly with the "road map", designed as much for European consumption as for the region, and indirectly through pressure on Syria and others to end support for the Palestinian resistance. The pace here is measured: many believe that this problem becomes more manageable only as US pressure against Arab states grows. Any real agreement requires Israeli concessions, unlikely before the November 2004 elections.

You won't find this strategy outlined in any official public document, but don't doubt its appeal. Americans are still basking in the afterglow of military triumph. There's little tolerance for questions about justifying the war, its conduct or the aftermath. A friend watching CNN e-mailed me: "Please tell them to quit showing all these scenes of looting in Baghdad; it's too disturbing."

You can be certain that the US strategy will not go unchallenged. The shootings at Fallujah are the strongest incidence yet of popular Iraqi resistance to American presence. Iran appears not have been behind this incident, but she and others will certainly note US vulnerabilities.

One hundred thousand Americans on the ground in Iraq present a tempting target for asymmetric warfare. Every student of Middle East politics realizes that undercutting their legitimacy with demonstrations that provoke forceful US reactions provide the most viable counter-strategy.

Unfortunately others outside the region appear to be reinforcing that counter-strategy. President Putin's refusal to help to lift the Iraqi sanctions is part of a broader effort to deny the US and Britain support and legitimacy for post-war tasks in Iraq.

And no matter how their leaders might protest, the four NATO members who met in Brussels to call for more EU planning and headquarters capabilities must have intended to force a wedge of greater separation from the US: not helpful as NATO begins discussions about its possible role in Iraq.

This military action was always intended to shake up the region and it certainly is doing that. The challenge is to transform change into net gain for peace and democracy. This will require much more than military power. We won't see blue skies for a while.

http://www.clark04.com/articles/006/



From "Gen. Wesley Clark, unplugged:
by Jake Tapper
Salon.com

(snip)

Q: Of the people who are running this war, from Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Don Rumsfeld and Powell on down, in terms of the political appointees, are there are any who you particularly like who you would work with again, hypothetically, in some ...

Clark: I like all the people who are there. I've worked with them before. I was a White House Fellow in the Ford administration when Secretary Rumsfeld was White House chief of staff and later Secretary of Defense, and Dick Cheney was the deputy chief of staff at the White House and later the chief.

Paul Wolfowitz I've known for many, many years. Steve Hadley at the White House is an old friend. Doug Feith I worked with very intensively during the time we negotiated the Dayton Peace Agreement; he was representing the Bosnian Muslims then, along with Richard Perle. So I like these people a lot. They're not strangers. They're old colleagues.


Q: Do you disagree with them on their worldview?

Clark: I disagreed with them on some specific aspects. I would not have gone after the war on terror exactly as did and I laid that out in the (new foreword to the paperback edition of "Waging Modern War"). But I also know there's no single best plan. You have to pick a plan that might work and make it work. That means you've got to avoid the plans with the fatal flaws. This administration came into office predisposed to use American troops for war fighting and to realign American foreign policy so it focused on a more robust, more realistic view of the world than the supposedly idealistic view of the previous administration.

But the views that President Bush espoused recently at the American Enterprise Institute, if his predecessor had espoused that view he'd have been hooted off the stage, laughed at, accused of being incredibly idealistic about the hard-nosed practical politics of the Middle East. So this is an administration that's moving in a certain direction, and now that that's the direction they've picked they've got to make it work. Like everybody else, I hope they'll be successful. It's too important; we can't afford to fail.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/03/24/clark/index2.html






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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. No
despite your highlighting, it's clear he does NOT endorse it.

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ClarkGraham2004 Donating Member (337 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. No
He doesn't support it. In fact, he came out against it visibly, early on.
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caber09 Donating Member (161 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Does Dean...
Support dodging a draft?
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OrAnarch Donating Member (433 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. I hope he does...
Cause that war was bullshit. Displays a serious error in judgement to have participated in it.


Off topic BTW. No need to hijack a good thread. Im intrested in this topic and am waiting for some good info regarding this, from both sides.
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TeacherCreature Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
4. he did say he'd be a republican if Rove had answered his calls
That says it all for me.
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ClarkGraham2004 Donating Member (337 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Link?
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. link
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:09 PM
Original message
And for the real story... unspun, unraveled...
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 10:10 PM by eileen_d
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
16. Even better
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 05:03 AM
Response to Original message
67. thanks :)
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. it's called a dry sense of humor
get one...
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ClarkGraham2004 Donating Member (337 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. lol yes, I was gonna say....
Even if Clark DID say it, I'm sure it was totally tongue-in-cheek.
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. This is a Republican lie.
Sorry you're falling for it. Clark is a committed Democrat.

http://www.clarkmyths.com/myth5.html
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sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Clark is a (recently) registered Democrat...
...who has shown a previous committment to the republican party.

Have any other of our candidates raised money for the republicans?

Voted for them?

Praised them in recent years?
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. He was a military man...
it's to bad you can't understand that.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #18
41. What does being military have to do with it?
I know a ton of Democrats in the military, to include very high Generals, who never ONCE praised ANY neo-con. Everyone knew exactly where they stood. General Kennedy who was the DCSINT for one- never a doubt in anyone's mind- a registered, vocal Dem the entire time who steered clear of any shady lobbying or shady boards.

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dfong63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #18
43. if that's the way a "military man" thinks, then he doesn't belong
... in the white house.
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #43
55. Folks, you're breaking me up now.
The "military man doesn't belong in the White House" paradigm.

Please! Stop! You're killin' me.

ROTFLOL

You folks are adorable.
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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Thanks for pointing that out.
I was going to reply to that. I can't emphasize that point that Clark has only been a Dem for about three or four months. He has to earn my trust, and he hasn't quite yet. I like Clark, and will work for him if he gets the nod, but I'm sure a lot of people have been looking at him the same way as I have.

Hawkeye-X
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
32. and voted for Dems since 92
and was unafilliated before registering as a democrat (which means he never was a republican).
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #17
54. You have to admire persistence
As soon as one charge is refuted, up pops someone else with yet another familiar refrain.

Do you suppose there is some sort of training class out there teaching posters how to do that? Is there some sort of quota, so that it is necessary that the "Clark wasn't a democrat" claim be pushed forward a given number of times during the course of each day?

Seems that way, doesn't it?

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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #54
68. sure does :)
But I'll leave the "admire" part to others.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. That was a joke he
threw into his speeches.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. it was no joke
WORD WAS THAT Karl Rove, the president’s political mastermind, had blocked the idea. Clark was furious. Last January, at a conference in Switzerland, he happened to chat with two prominent Republicans, Colorado Gov. Bill Owens and Marc Holtzman, now president of the University of Denver. “I would have been a Republican,” Clark told them, “if Karl Rove had returned my phone calls.” Soon thereafter, in fact, Clark quit his day job and began seriously planning to enter the presidential race-as a Democrat. Messaging NEWSWEEK by BlackBerry, Clark late last week insisted the remark was a “humorous tweak.” The two others said it was anything but. “He went into detail about his grievances,” Holtzman said. “Clark wasn’t joking. We were really shocked.”

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3087185/

Julie
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #28
57. Wasn't there another link quoted above regarding this very story?
Oh, yeah.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/002021.html

But keep up the good work, folks. You still have a few more "hits" to cover before this thread peters out but I have confidence that you'll be able to do it.

Excelsior!
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
24. Education
is a wonderful thing. As you must know by now there were no calls, and this was a joke.
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
52. Does anyone have a clue how many times this comment has
appeared on DU? I think it might be a good idea to start a scoreboard, on which each charge against Clark might be rated on the frequency with which it appears on DU.

We could also give points when the charge in question appears in a thread that starts off with something like "An honest question for Clark supporters" or "I like Clark but..."

After the primaries we could give out a prize for the person who last posts the most common attack.

Maybe a gift certificate or something.

What is the will of the group?
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. No.
http://clark04.com/issues/iraqstrategy/

In fact, I believe he's been quoted speaking out against PNAC in particular. Gone googling --
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Clark's Talking Points Memo interview with Josh Marshall covers it,
as does Clark's book.

I'm sure anyone interested in truth could document Clark's strident antipnacism with minimal effort.*

* (Assumes a true heart.)

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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Thank you
I guess I'd say - have a heart and do your own research, folks. I've got a holiday party to go to, and a 23-year-old hottie to mack on ;)
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sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. A 23 year old hottie?
And you'd rather be there than here? LOL. Have fun!
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
10. I do not see any evidence in any of those articles
that proves any thing except that Clark may not be the best judge of charecter
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
21. Cutting and pasting...
must be exhausting......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=806820&mesg_id=806820

This recent thread might help you put things in perspective.....

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2003_09_28.html#002033

(scroll down a bit in that link to find the interview)

TPM: As we mentioned before, in different capacities you worked for a number of different administrations. Whether it was Ford, working directly in the White House, or for the last 15, 20 years in various capacities at a fairly senior level. You've seen these different presidents conduct foreign policy. What are your opinions of the different ones?

CLARK: Well, you know, nobody gets to be president of the United States without conspicuous strengths. But the ability to conduct foreign policy draws not only on the president himself but on the leadership of the administration. If you were to start here and work backwards, you'd say this administration was doctrinaire. You'd say that it didn't have a real vision in foreign policy. It was reactive. Hobbled by its right-wing constituency from using the full tools that are available -- the full kit-bag of tools that's available to help Americans be in there and protect their interests in the world.

Clinton administration: broad minded, visionary, lots of engagement. Did a lot of work. Had difficulty with two houses in congress that didn't control. And in an odd replay of the Carter administration, found itself chained to the Iraqi policy -- promoted by the Project for a New American Century -- much the same way that in the Carter administration some of the same people formed the Committee on the Present Danger which cut out from the Carter administration the ability to move forward on SALT II.

...more...
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sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Gee...thanks for that link.
Although I didn't find the part where Clark denounces the PNAC plan, I did read farther down and found this gem:

Clark praises the Reagan economic policies!

(snip)

(Clark): As for Ronald Reagan, there were some things done well, some things done poorly, but one of the biggest things was it was the administration in which inflation came under control as the result of a lot of tough policies, some of them begun by Reagan's predecessor to attack the expectations that had built up in this country as a result of trying to do guns and butter during Vietnam. And it took years to drive these expectations out of the business community, out of the financial community. But as they disappeared and people began to accept core inflation rates of less than two and three percent and they didn't build cost escalators into everything, you established a much firmer sense of purpose and success in America. That's a bipartisan effort. I loved Reagan's speech at Pointe du Hoc. I was at the Pentagon, I was at the Pentagon as a colonel when he gave it on D-Day.




Golly, can we expect some of that neat "trickle down" conomics from a Clark adminstration?


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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. he loved Reagan's policies so much he voted for Clinton in 92, 96 and
for Gore in 2000.

He's really in love with trickle down.
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #25
59. Wait a minute? Isn't this just the old "not a democrat" thing?
I don't think you can get credit for that one if someone else used it before.

Still, maybe there'll be a prize for most persistent.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
22. If they want a Democrat face put on it, they had better all support it!

I think the supporters of all the moneyed candidates are sophisticated enough to know exactly what they are gunning to "win," and most of them are very candid and forthright about it.
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
23. Early and often...Clark puts down PNAC.
I've made a point of not editorializing about my interview with Wes Clark. I'd rather just let the plain text speak for itself (even my endless repetition of the word "obviously") and people can make up their own minds.

But I'll make one exception because of the article that appears in the New York Sun today. The front page story in the Sun takes Clark to task for this passage in the interview …

Clinton administration: broad minded, visionary, lots of engagement. Did a lot of work. Had difficulty with two houses in congress that didn't control. And in an odd replay of the Carter administration, found itself chained to the Iraqi policy -- promoted by the Project for a New American Century -- much the same way that in the Carter administration some of the same people formed the Committee on the Present Danger which cut out from the Carter administration the ability to move forward on SALT II.

The piece in the Sun doesn't just disagree with Clark's point. They portray it as some bizarre or even unhinged misunderstanding of the main currents US foreign policy.
The author, Ira Stoll, got Bill Kristol to say "It's really a little bit crackpot. I don't think Clinton was really following the PNAC script. We called for regime change. Last I looked, Saddam was still there when Clinton left. Maybe he got confused."

----------------

Here's my take on this.

When I interviewed Clark that passage was the one that struck me most and the one that stood out in my mind. The analogy hadn't occurred to me before. But it's extremely apt. And the backroom politicking over Iraq is something I know a bit about.

Why it stuck in my mind was that it showed not only a deep grasp of foreign policy issues but an equally canny sense of the informal and extra-governmental ways policy gets hashed out in Washington. More than anything it signaled an understanding that what we've been seeing for the last two years is part of a much longer history stretching back into the late 1960s.
-----------------

But when you see these slashing words from the neocons against Clark, it's not because he's "confused" about anything. It's because he's got their number. And they know it.


http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2003_09_28.html

Clark came out against PNAC early and often. Is anything, he is the most dangerous enemy they have.

BTW, read his book if you want to understand how opposed he is to PNAC. It is completely against everything he believes in.




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sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. I still don't see a quote in which he refutes the PNAC plan.
The column he wrote seems that he (at least tacitly) agrees with it.

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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. no one's buying it
nice try, though.
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sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Typical.
You can't provide one quote that refutes it.

What a surprise.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. I would, if I didn't think you're playing games
I've heard Clark speak at length on his foreign policy ideas. There's no hint of PNAC anywhere.

Anyway, a military person is very unlikely to endorse these ideas. PNAC is Chickenhawk Central.

It's just a foolish thesis that you very poorly supported. Games, like I said.

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sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Then do it.
Post a quote from Clark in which he denounces the PNAC agenda. Seriously, I'd like to see it. I sure can't find one.

His column in the Times sure looks like he's at least tacitly agreeing with it.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. I'm not trying to prove anything
You're the one trying to prove something, and you're failing.
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sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. You are proving my point.
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 11:45 PM by sfecap
You can't refute it. The proof is in his words, and lack of repudiation of the policies.



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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #40
60. Do you see my problem here?
I can't comment on this because I don't want to be thought to be "stalking" the person making this argument, even though this is just another repetition of the "PNAC" argument which someone got credit for using already.

Still, the persistence is noted.
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #27
49. read the link
read the entire interview...read his book...

read, okay?

If you don't want to know, why pose the question? Or did you just intend to couple Clark's name and PNAC in the same title.

"So transparent we are," said Yoda.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
34. In a word:no
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
35. Yikes. This is a bit scary to me.
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 11:26 PM by MGKrebs
(Great post, sfecap.)

I am a Dean supporter, but I want to like Clark. I just haven't been able to get a feel for him. So this is interesting to me.

Although I can't find anything that says Clark "endorses" the PNAC plan, I can't find anything where he claims to disagree with it or repudiate it, either. The closest he comes is to advocate working with allies.

Responses to several posts:

1: It is NOT clear that he doesn't endorse it. He speaks warmly of the men who created it, and when given the chance to express his differences, says "I disagreed with them on some specific aspects.". I mean, do I not understand English? That means he agreed IN GENERAL.

2: If you've got a cite on where he came out against it early on, I'd like to see it.

eileen_d: (no post number, for some reason): I've read the Talking Points Memo interview. In fact, I've printed it out, and I have it right here to refer to. Nowhere in there does he denounce the PNAC doctrine. The interview is consistent with the quotes in the original post in this thread. Some excerpts:

"TPM: How about Iran?
CLARK: Iran needs to be worked through the international community. But it's difficult to work Iran through the international community when you have alienated much of the international community by your policy in Iraq. Iran was always a greater threat than Iraq.

"... If you look at all the states that were named as the principal adversaries, they're on the periphery of international terrorism today. Syria -- OK, supporting Hezbollah and Hamas -- yeah, they're terrorist organizations. They're focused on Israel. They're getting support from Iran. It's wrong. Shouldn't be there. But they're there. What about Saudi Arabia? There's a source of the funding, the source of the ideology, the source of the recruits. What about Pakistan? With thousands of madrassas churning out ideologically-driven foot soldiers for the war on terror. Neither of those are at the front of the military operations. "
He's not disagreeing with the policy here, he's only disagreeing with the sequence! How can one read this other than he thinks we should be going after Saudi, Pakistan, and Syria?

"...The proxy states, Syria, Lebanon, whatever. These states are not -- they need to transform. But, why is it impossible to take an authoritarian regime in the Middle East and see it gradually transform into something democratic, as opposed to going in, knocking it off, ending up with hundreds of billions of dollars of expenses. And killing people. And in the meantime, leaving this real source of the problems -- the states that were our putative allies during the Cold War -- leaving them there. Egypt. Saudi Arabia. Pakistan.
Again, he's not saying we shouldn't intervene. It sounds like he disagrees with attacking Iraq, but in the same breath he seems to advocate fixing the "real source of the problems"- Egypt, Saudi, and Pakistan.

"...if you're going to be successful in Iraq, you're probably going to have to change the dynamic in the Middle East. Right now, we've given Iran and Syria the strongest possible incentives to work against our purposes in Iraq, because we've let them know that they're next. So, from their perspective, they don't want to get invaded. They don't want to get knocked off because they're against the United States. It's only natural that they'd be working to make sure there's enough resistance in Iraq.
That's more like it. But again he doesn't repudiate the policy, just that we have done it poorly. He says "you're going to have to change the dynamic", but only criticizes our heavy-handedness.

TPM: This being the same neo-conservatives that people hear about in the press today?
CLARK: Right, some of the same people. And then, you know, if you go back to the Bush administration, they were there when the Berlin Wall fell. I think there was some artful maneuvering -- which the Clinton administration followed through on ..."

"What we wanted to have done, what we should have done in the late '80s was said, "Look, even though now we've eliminated the Soviet threat, we have permanent friends. You in Europe, you're our permanent friends. We will make our interests converge so that we strengthen our friendship. The friendship is more important than the interests, if you work this right over time, you can work to smooth off the sharp edges of conflicting interests. And I think that's still a recipe for moving forward. "
A little bit of double-speak here. Advocating working with allies again, but only as far as "smoothing the sharp edges of conflicting interests". Repeatedly given the opportunity to distance himself from the PNAC agenda, and just can't bring himself to do it. It should be very easy to say something like " I reject remaking the Middle East by force".

Post #11: You don't have to be a Republican to buy into the PNAC. Will Marshall, founder of the DLC think tank called PPI, has signed onto the PNAC post war Iraq strategy document.

23: Nothing you cited shows an anti-PNAC comment. I might have to read the book if there is more explicit stuff in there. But in any case, he should be saying this loud and clear outside the book if he wants to distance himself from them.
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #35
63. And here comes the "I want to like Clark" varient
Nicely done. Good form.

What is really precious about this argument is that Clark has never endorsed the PNAC program. He just hasn't condemned it to the satisfaction of certain individuals.

One could be forgiven for suspecting that were Clark to condemn the PNAC plan, these same individuals would be using the same sources to "prove" that he was lying, or flip-flopping on the question.

This, apparently, is the level of intellectual discourse approved by certain individuals who are self-identified as being a "Dean supporter"

Interesting.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
36. See PNAC-ers angry at Clark for exposing them :
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 11:27 PM by robbedvoter
CLARK EMERGING AS AN OPPONENT OF REAGANISM

http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/getFiles.asp?Style=OliveXLib:ArticleToMail&Type=text/html&Path=NYS/2003/10/02&ID=Ar00100
Candidate Derides Committee That Crafted Cold War Victory


I have this fantasy that these old stories circling the drain since last summer will some day go away. But I know that once Clark will be in the White House, the extreme left and right will combine website - like I saw during Clinton: Chomsky, Nader side by side with ken Starr - Mena, Vince Foster - all did the spectrum...I think it will be even more fun with Ramsey Clark joining his old RW friends and Milosevic in a group hug...You are not letting this ot Shelton, or Mladic go - ever - am I right?
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. This has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
A stupid newspaper is criticizing Clark for believing Clinton was somehow following a PNAC agenda. It says nothing about where Clark is on the issue.
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #38
64. This one is hard to credit
Apparently, the poster managed to read an article describing how Clark specifically attacked the PNAC and them makes the claim that Clark was actually attacking the Clinton administration.

Now THAT is talent worthy of noting.

Perhaps we could establish an Orwell prize in the contest.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
39. The honest answer is no
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
42. This is silly
Clark has written a book recently called "Winning Modern Wars" which completely debunks your theory, here are a few links with some infromation, reviews, excerpts. But the best thing would be to buy it and read it, I'm sure it would answer your questions.



http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,6903,1091146,00.html

http://netscape.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_39/b3851061.htm

http://www.draftclark.com/archives/004406.shtml

http://www.latimes.com/cl-first-winning,0,288176.htmlstory

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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. Thanks. This makes me feel a little better.
"...Clark turns the corner - from accusing Bush of following long standing misguided dream by the far right wing in the form of the Project For A New American Century, and hence producing a failed policy, and an occupation which everyone denied until we were engaged in it - to a larger problem of America as an Empire."

"American unilateralism is bad military policy and bad foreign policy. Clark sharply criticizes the 2002 National Security Strategy of the United States of America paper that postulates a unilateral, preemptive foreign policy for the country. He argues that the U.S. leverages its military and political power around the world through multilateral institutions such as NATO and the U.N. and that abandoning them has cost it dearly in Iraq. In effect, he says that the U.S. doesn't do nation-building very well and should outsource it to the U.N. Clark also dislikes talk of an American Empire. "Old ideas of empire have to be replaced with a new strategic vision."

I still have concerns though. His criticisms always seem to be followed by some qualifier. I doubt if I will buy the book (I haven't even bought Dean's book), but I will be listening to see if he addresses this more clearly.


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sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. Sorry, Jim....
Nothing in those links addresses the larger plan that Clark wrote about in the London Times.

I appreciate that he has changed his support for the Iraq war, but I am more concerned that he has never refuted the larger PNAC plan to control the ME.
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. HE HAS!
That's what people here have been trying to tell you, and you are obviously refusing to acknowledge it. If you refuse to buy, borrow or steal his book, you can look up transcipts or videos of interviews, debates and town hall meetings. You can also search this site as during one his his interviews, debates or town hall meetings (I can't remember which) he gave the smackdown to PNAC and this forum went wild. Why are you insisting that other people do the research for you about issues that have been discussed NUMEROUS times? Clark, as I mentioned the last time you threw up this flamebait post under a different title (which was locked, I might add), is thus far the ONLY candidate that has not only mentioned the PNAC but has given them the smackdown.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #46
50. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jmaier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #50
56. LOL
now the moderators are part of an anti-Dean conspiracy.
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sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #56
58. Who wudda thought, huh?
:-)
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
47. You can start debunking your hollow premise here:
Edited on Sat Dec-27-03 02:07 AM by Tom Rinaldo
This is taken from a September 23rd 2003 article

"Clark says after the 11 September 2001 attacks, many Bush administration officials seemed determined to move against Iraq, invoking the idea of state sponsorship of terrorism, “even though there was no evidence of Iraqi sponsorship of 9/11 whatsoever”.

Ousting Saddam Hussein promised concrete, visible action, the general writes, dismissing it as a “Cold War approach”.

Clark criticises the plan to attack the seven states, saying it targeted the wrong countries, ignored the “real sources of terrorists”, and failed to achieve “the greater force of international law” that would bring wider global support.

He also condemns George Bush’s notorious Axis of Evil speech made during his 2002 State of the Union address. “There were no obvious connections between Iraq, Iran, and North Korea,” says Clark."

Found on Independent Media TV: http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=2654&fcategory_desc=The%20Project%20for%20a%20New%20American%20Century


This is taken form a long thoughtful review of Clark's book "Winning Modern Wars". The review is on a Pro Clark Web site, but he reason they are Pro Clark includes his position vis a vis PNAC:

"Clark describes the decision by the Executive branch to escalate the war and concludes:

"And so, barely six months into the war on terror, the direction seemed set. The United States would strike, using its military superiority; it would enlarge the problem, using the strikes on 9/11 to address the larger Middle East concerns; it would attempt to make the strongest case possible in favor of its course, regardless of the nuances of the intelligence; and it would dissipate the huge outpouring of goodwill and sympathy it had received in September 2001 by going it largely alone, without support of a formal alliance or full support from the United Nations...."

"Clark spends time to detail some of the inside apparatus of policy making - taking the time to explain the importance of the quadrennial National Security Strategy of 2002 - before getting to his main thrust. Because Iraq was not organically connected to the terrorist attacks of 9/11 - the mission had to be sold as being a short strike to overthrow an imminent threat. This precluded an honest assessment of the costs and benefits of overthrowing Saddam, and therefore, when the invasion ended, and the occupation began - everyone was underprepared, including those who had backed the war policy. In order to convince the American people this was another "in and out" along the lines of Grenada, Panama, Haiti and the first Gulf War - the preparations for the occupation had to be minimal - lest they betray foreknowledge of the real cost. It smacks of Hitler failing to order winter uniforms for Operation Barbarossa, the invasion of the USSR.

In tomorrow's entry will be on the remainder of Clark's argument, where Clark turns the corner - from accusing Bush of following long standing misguided dream by the far right wing in the form of the Project For A New American Century, and hence producing a failed policy, and an occupation which everyone denied until we were engaged in it - to a larger problem of America as an Empire."

Unfortunately I got that from an archive site and can't find part two of the review. Here is the link:
http://www.draftclark.com/archives/004406.shtml


Some more stuff, this from May 15th 2003 newpaper coverage of a talk by journalist Richard Dreyfuss:

"The image of the United States has changed in the eyes of the world,” Dreyfuss said. “We are no longer viewed as the beacon of democracy, but as the bully on the playground that picked on the weakest kid to beat up in order to intimidate others.

Dreyfuss is an award-winning independent journalist whose cover article in the April issue of American Prospect magazine, “Quicksand: Iraq is Just the Beginning,” was the title for the forum. His articles on national and foreign affairs appear routinely in The Nation, Rolling Stone, Mother Jones and other publications...

In his American Prospect article, Dreyfuss wrote: “Six years ago, in its founding statement of principles, PNAC called for a radical change in U.S. foreign and defense policy, with a beefed-up military budget and a more muscular stance abroad, challenging hostile regimes and assuming `American global leadership.’” It was signed by Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheney’s chief of staff I. Lewis Libby and Gov. Jeb Bush, the president’s brother, among others. “The PNAC statement foreshadowed the outline of the president’s 2002 national security strategy,” he wrote.

The invasion of Iraq, as a component of this strategy, was not supported by many in the U.S. military, including Gen. Zinni and Gen. Wesley Clark, former head of the Allied Command, Dreyfuss noted, and top levels of the CIA, who knew there are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq nor government ties to al Qaeda. terrorists."

The Link: http://www.fcnp.com/310/story4.htm


Finally I think parts of this article from a right wing Anti-Clark persspective was cited above in the thread somewhere, but here are some very relevent quotes from an article trying to make Clark out as a crack pot for EXPOSING the extent of PNAC influence. This from October 2, 2003:

"Candidate Derides Committee That Crafted Cold War Victory"

General Wesley Clark, the late entry into the race for the Democratic nomination for president, is making what critics called a “bizarre,” “crackpot” attack on a small Washington policy organization and on a citizens group that helped America win the Cold War...

... Relatively few American voters have even heard of the Project for a New American Century or remember the Committee on the Present Danger, so the flap is unlikely to sway many votes immediately. But if the interview contributes to a sense of General Clark as something of a loose cannon, that might have an effect on voters seeking a steady leader to guide the nation in the war against terrorism...

...A director of the Project for a New American Century, Randy Scheunemann, called General Clark’s comments “bizarre.”...

... “This is a guy who could barely win a war in Kosovo,” Mr. Scheunemann said. “Now Wesley Clark is running for president by running against a think tank?”

Here's that link: http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/getFiles.asp?Style=OliveXLib:ArticleToMail&Type=text/html&Path=NYS/2003/10/02&ID=Ar00100


Oh by the way, here is a link to a great buzzflash interview with the co-author of "Hunting the President", Gene Lyons where he outlines the attack campaign the Republicans will use against Clark, among other things. This from October 22, 2003:

BUZZFLASH: You're probably one of the most well-informed journalists on how attack politics play themselves out with a culpable media, based on your extensive research and writing on the Clintons. How do you think the right wing is going to go after Clark? What can he expect? What advice would you give Clark and the people who are working for him?

LYONS: Well, the outlines of it are already evident. They're saying he's too tightly wrapped, which is kind of akin to what they tried to do with John McCain. They're saying he's a zealot and tends to become unhinged. They're suggesting he's crazed with ambition.

I wrote in a column a couple of weeks ago that one of their lines of attack would be to portray him as sort of General Jack D. Ripper, who was the megalomaniacal general in Dr. Strangelove who was so concerned with his precious bodily fluids. And that's what I think they will try to do. They might go all the way to the edge of suggesting some kind of mental illness. I don't think he's very vulnerable to that sort of smear."
That link: http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/03/10/int03221.html


Shall I repeat the right wing smear against Clark for trying to expose PNAC? Yes, I think so: "General Wesley Clark, the late entry into the race for the Democratic nomination for president, is making what critics called a “bizarre,” “crackpot” attack on a small Washington policy organization and on a citizens group that helped America win the Cold War."

And what thanks does Clark get for his trouble? A smear thread against him as potentially pro-PNAC here on the Democratic Underground.













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sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. Thanks, Tom.
Now, can you read the piece from the London Times I posted and reconcile it for me?

It seems that there is a disconnect with what Clark says there and what you posted.

Does it not appear that Clark tacitly approved the plan for the Middle East? Remember, that piece was written in May, long before his campaign started. Clark has been less than consistent in his opinions on the Iraq war, etc.

Thanks again for the info...

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jmaier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #48
53. I don't see much
to reconcile in the Times of London article. It reads pretty much as a straight forward explanation of the Bush strategy -- not a supportive piece at all. If it has any tone at all, it appears skeptical of its ultimate success.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #48
61. Well, as you know, it's late
I just spent a lot of time on the post you just answered. Let me quickly say this. I have read that complete London Times Article several times, most recently earlier tonight, probably above, I dunno. I have read it carefully, and I simply think that you are misreading it. I can see from the wording how that might happen. Here is another interesting paragraph from the Pro Clark review I cited above:

"In Chapter Four, he recounts the victories against Al-Qaeda, making it clear that the victories have, largely, been those of law enforcement - the list, as it extends, makes it clear that while military operations to shatter the nerve center in Afghanistan were crucial, in themselves, they were merely a means to a larger end. But after this positive list the tone darkens, Clark's rhetorical technique is often to list the positive of the otherside, and then hammer on their failures, having established his fair mindedness already".

Nowadays, after 3 months on the campaign trail, Clark has adjusted to the need to make more frontal attack political statements, and his "rhetorical techniques" have changed. But this is now, and that was then. A bit more:

" "And so, barely six months into the war on terror, the direction seemed set. The United States would strike, using its military superiority; it would enlarge the problem, using the strikes on 9/11 to address the larger Middle East concerns; it would attempt to make the strongest case possible in favor of its course, regardless of the nuances of the intelligence; and it would dissipate the huge outpouring of goodwill and sympathy it had received in September 2001 by going it largely alone, without support of a formal alliance or full support from the United Nations."

And then he concludes with a grim warning that Bush was not lying when he said it would last for years."

The first few sentences could almost sound like Clark is advancing that as a policy position, or at least it is possible to see how he could be so misconstrued. But here, as in the London Times Article, Clark was really laying out a warning about what the logical extension of current U.S. foreign policy would be. Within the pages of his own book it is impossible to misunderstand Clark's meaning as being anything other than completely opposed to the Bush policy.

That is why a thread like this is so frustrating, and such a disservice in my opinion to healthy debate and exploration of the stands taken by our candidates. People go to obscene trouble to find some loose piece of a comment made somewhere that is somehow ambiguous, or which could be spun into something negative, and then they run with it. It is the intellectual equivalent of the Bush administration cooking the intelligence books on the evidence that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. They went out of their way to find factoids that they could interpret in a way consistent with their previously held position. That's what I think you did here, despite Clark having two books in print detailing his comprehensive world view regarding American foreign policy. His "Winning Modern Wars" is essentially a treatise on diplomacy, the international order, and multilateral institutions that support it. Yet instead you seize on a few sentences that CAN be seen as ambiguous if you are so inclined, and next thing you know you are suggesting Clark is backing PNAC. Clark is the most prominent and potent potential spokesman against the PNAC world view that we have the good fortune of having on our side.

And after all the supporting evidence some of us provide you, you still stay stuck on reading into a few of Clark's words "proof" of your original mistaken impression.



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jmaier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. don't waste your fingers,
Tom, the purpose of this thread is to smear by implication. There is no interest in any counter-facts you might provide. At most you'll get some patronizing "thanks" as your reply. You certainly won't get a considered reading.

As the author has made clear on numerous threads today/tonight, he/she 1) doesn't like Clark and 2) is retaliating for attacks on Dean. End of story.
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sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #62
66. jmaier...
It's really rude to answer for someone else.

No, I don't support Clark.

Yes, I don't appreciate the egregious attack on the candidate I support by the Clark camp.

Tom's answer was excellent. He didn't waste his fingers.
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sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #61
65. Tom, thanks for the excellent reply.
That's what I was looking for.

The Times article does indeed seem ambiguous. That's why I posted this in the first place.

You do your candidate well with this response.

Thanks again.
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:15 AM
Response to Original message
51. Clark is not in favor of the PNAC plan
Golly, its great to see such fine work as this post. Too bad it won't make a bit of difference in the real world.

It must be frustrating to realise that all this work is for nothing.

The voters will decide who the democratic nominee will be, and as you can easily notice, there aren't a whole bunch of voters taking any sort of active part in the board at the present time.

And, of course, nothing in your post is particularly new or insightful so its value is somewhat debatable in the first place.

One can only hope everyone will get tired of this and just stop wasting bandwidth.
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