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Let's recap the REAL REAL reason we are suffering a Bush2 administration and their wars

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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:13 PM
Original message
Let's recap the REAL REAL reason we are suffering a Bush2 administration and their wars
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 02:15 PM by wyldwolf




(SIGHHHH) I'm so smart! I know there's no REAL difference between Gore and Bush!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:26 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:28 PM
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. Seems to me that the main reason Bush became president was the corruption in the Florida election
and HOW his brother could have been allowed any role at all is incredible - even if he was governor, he should have withdrawn from any involvement in that election from the beginning, due to conflict of interest.

If the Florida election had been dealt with ethically, then Gore would have become president, Nader or no Nader.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Well, Florida certainly had much to do with it, for sure
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 03:11 PM by wyldwolf
But, sorry, no Nader, no Florida recount.

Of course, the alternate theory being floated in every thread by the same poster that Clinton could have stopped the W Bush presidency is, well... let's just say if you listen to enough folks, Clinton is to blame for EVERYTHING wrong in their lives.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. I don't blame Clinton either (though according to the Republicans, everything is his fault)
I blame Bush, his crooked brother, and the whole corrupt anti-democratic bunch in Florida.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. well, SOMEONE here sure blames Clinton!
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. yup.....



wasted vote.... wasted voter
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. LOL! Great picture!
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Hahahahahhaha that's awesome
"Duuuuude... I so totally, like, just helped fuck America. Sweeeeeet. Is my bong ready?"
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
8. More specious reasoning
Nobody has any idea what would have happened in 2000 had Nader not run. I'm pretty sure though that Gore would have still run a desultory, mediocre campaign and that BushCo would have tried to steal Florida juuuuust enough to win.

Blaming Nader is convenient, but extemely misleading. Had Gore been a more attractive, progressive candidate there would likely have been zero support for a Nader candidacy. Then who would you blame?


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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. More specious reasoning
if Nader wasn't a choice, the 2.7% who supported Nader would have split so Gore would have picked up about 2% more support and Bush would have picked up an additional 1%. In a non-Nader race, Gore would have prevailed over Bush 50% to 49%.

That result fits the data showing twice as many 2000 Nader voters would have supported Gore rather than Bush. Exit polls indicate that if only Gore and Bush were running, Nader's votes would have broken down as follows:

1,326,159 (46%) would have picked Gore
893,716 (31%) would have sat out the election.
663,080 (23%) would have favored Bush.
2,882,955 (100%) total

Here are the actual results from the 2000 election:

Gore 50,999,897 48.38%
Bush 50,456,002 47.87%
Nader 2,882,955 2.74%
Total 105,405,100 100.00%*

* Includes all candidates

See: http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/2000presgeresults.htm

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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. The lesson of 2000 was finally learned in 2006
You win elections by running candidates that people actually want to vote for.

The simple fact is that not enough people wanted to vote for Gore. Like 2004, the 2000 election should not have been close. Even then it was clear that Bush was a dangerous moron. Gore should have destroyed him, but he didn't. And for that, you can only blame Al Gore.

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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Is that why Gore won the popular vote in 2000? Getting more votes than...
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 04:14 PM by wyldwolf
... any Democrat in history up to that time?

LOL! You're not real good with them "simple facts" are you?
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. And yet...
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 04:25 PM by jgraz
He still isn't president. Neither is Kerry. Talk all you want about cheating and Green Party subversives, there are dozens of candidates who overcame both of those obstacles in 2006 and are preparing to take their seats in Congress.

Why? Because they were actually someone to vote for, not just the lesser of two lessers.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. and yet... you said something about running candidates everyone would vote for???
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nodular Donating Member (267 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
31. You are correct.
And while we're at it, H. Ross Perot elected Bill Clinton in 1992.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. But you are not correct
The truth lies in the actual statistical analysis of the ‘92 election. This is where it gets complicated. If number crunching makes your eyes glaze over, just skip to the end. Ready?

In 1992, Perot got 19,660,450 votes. The total turnout for the Presidential election was more than 13 million higher than in 1988. So even thought Perot’s vote tally was impressive, 13 million of the voters didn’t even vote in 1988.

Bill Clinton garnered 3.1 million votes more than Michael Dukakis did in 1988, but George H.W. Bush received 9.7 million fewer votes than he did in 1988. Finally, the two party vote fell by 7 million in 1992. So Ross Perot only took 7 million votes from Clinton and Bush.

If Perot had not been in the race, would those 7 million Perot voters who voted for Bush and Dukakis in 1988 have voted for Bush by a sufficient margin for him to overcome Clinton’s 3.1 million vote lead?

Those 7 million Perot voters would have had to favor Bush over Clinton by 5 to 2. Or, even if all 19.6 million Perot voters had voted for one of the major party candidates, they would have had to favor Bush by a 58% to 42% margin to overcome clinton’s lead and tie the race. Was this likely in view of the fact that the other 84 million voters were favoring Clinton by 7%, 53.5% to Bush’s 46.5%?

Usually, the presidential candidate runs far ahead of the rest of the ticket. Perot’s presence in the presidential race combined with an absence of running mates for lesser offices meant that Clinton and Bush ran behind their respective party’s nominees for Governor, Senator and the House. Consequently, it was easy to follow Perot’s voters as they voted for other offices. They voted for Democratic and Republican Governor, Senator and House of Representative candidates in sufficient numbers to give them higher vote totals than Clinton and Bush.

This assumes that all Clinton’s supporters voted for the other Democratic candidates and all Bush’s supporters voted for the Republican candidates for Governor, Senator and the House. Since Republican candidates for other offices received more votes than Bush, and Democratic candidates for other offices received more votes than Clinton, this is a statistically valid assumption. The higher vote totals for the non-presidential candidates had to come from Perot’s voters.

In the Governor’s races, Perot’s voters cast 18% of their ballots for the Republican candidates; 56% of their ballots for Democratic candidates, 17% for independent candidates, and 8% did not bother to vote for Governor. If Perot’s voters had voted for Bush and Clinton in the same proportion that the voted for the Republican and Democratic candidates for Governor, Clinton’s lead would have increased by 7.5 million votes.

In the Senate races, Perot’s supporters voted 27% for the Republican candidates, 24% for the Democratic candidates, 23% for the independent candidates, and 24% skipped the Senate races entirely. (This does not include states that did not have Senate races.)

In the House races, Perot’s voters cast 22% of their ballots for Republican candidates, 19% for Democratic candidates, 18% for independent candidates, and 40% did not vote in House races.

Perot’s voters voted overwhelmingly for Democratic Governor candidates, and only marginally in favor of the Republican candidates for the House and Senate. Perot’s voters favored Republican Senate candidates by 2.28%, and Republican House candidates by 2.69%. Because Perot’s voters were only 1/5th of the total, that translates into about another 500,000 votes or 0.5% for bush if they had voted in a two way presidential race the same way they voted for the Senate and House. That is about 1/7th of the margin by which Bush lost. source

So, from a popular vote perspective, Perot clearly did not influence the outcome. He took votes away from both Clinton and Bush. But elections aren’t won on the popular vote (as we were painfully reminded of in 2000.) How did Perot’s performance effect the electoral college results?

SwingStateProject has the answer.

Perot clearly did not cost Bush the 1992 election. The partisan index measures the degree to which a state favors a party relative to the way the rest of the nation favors that party. This being the case, it would follow that if more typically GOP partisans had indeed swung to Perot than had typically Democratic partisans, the 1992 partisan index would reveal and anomalous pro-DNC swing due to a temporarily eroded Republican base.

However, only a handful of states that Clinton won show such trends. Perot definitely seems to have caused Bush to lose Georgia, as the usually double-digit pro-GOP partisan index in that state cratered at +5.0 GOP in 1992. The same goes for Nevada, which relatively favored the GOP by 13.2 in 1988 and 7.5 in 1996, but only by 2.9 in 1992.

I’ll grant that without Perot, Bush probably wins both states.

Looking at the chart, however, only Colorado, Kentucky, Maine, Montana, New Hampshire and Tennessee are other possible states that Perot swung to Clinton. Still, even if Bush had won all of these states as well as Georgia and Nevada, Clinton would have won the Electoral College 315-223. Further, there is no conclusive evidence that Perot actually cost Bush any of these other six states.

Of course, like I already noted, even if I am wrong about all of these states, that means Clinton would still have won 315-223. No other state shows evidence of Perot costing Bush victory. Perot did not cost Bush the 1992 election–not even close. That is one popular myth that can be put to bed.


But let’s not rely on what George W. Bush might have called “fuzzy math” had he been sober in 1992. (I’m sorry, there’s my own contribution to truthiness. Bush claims he’s been sober since 1986.) Let’s go to several newspaper headlines from 1992 concerning exit polling:

Perot Seen Not Affecting Vote Outcome

DIONNE (11/8/92): Ross Perot’s presence on the 1992 presidential ballot did not change the outcome of the election, according to an analysis of the second choices of Perot supporters.

The analysis, based on exit polls conducted by Voter Research & Surveys (VRS) for the major news organizations, indicated that in Perot’s absence, only Ohio would have have shifted from the Clinton column to the Bush column. This would still have left Clinton with a healthy 349-to-189 majority in the electoral college.

And even in Ohio, the hypothetical Bush “margin” without Perot in the race was so small that given the normal margin of error in polls, the state still might have stuck with Clinton absent the Texas billionaire.


Also from the same author:

DIONNE (11/12/92): In House races, Perot voters split down the middle: 51 percent said they backed Republicans, 49 percent backed Democrats. In the presidential contest, 38 percent of Perot supporters said they would have supported Clinton if Perot had not been on the ballot and 37 percent said they would have supported Bush.

An additional 6 percent of Perot voters said they would have sought another third-party candidate, while 14 percent said they would not have voted if Perot had not run.


And finally, the Associated Press:

Perot’s Voters Would Have Split In a Two-Way Race

ASSOCIATED PRESS (11/4/92): Exit polls suggest Ross Perot hurt George Bush and Bill Clinton about equally.

The Voter Research and Surveys poll, a joint project of the four major television networks, found 38 percent of Perot voters would have voted for Clinton and 37 percent would have voted for Bush if Perot had not been on the ballot. Fifteen percent said they would not have voted, and 6 percent listed other candidates.

So there you have three perspectives. Popular vote statistics, electoral vote analysis, and the results of exit polling, all indicating the Perot drew votes away from Bush and Clinton equally and, thus, did NOT throw the election to Clinton.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
14. Dear Mr. Wolf
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 04:53 PM by welshTerrier2
Mr. Nader has a long history of opposing the onslaught of corporatism that has devoured our democratic (small d) institutions ...

Looking beyond the endlessly fruitless discussion of whether he should or should NOT have run and whether anyone should or should NOT have voted for him and whether had he not run Gore would or would NOT have won Florida, Democrats need to recognize that alienating voters on the "Green left" is neither wise nor necessary ... put another way, it seems without much of a stretch that smart cookie Democrats could easily subsume the Green message ...

are we as a party not in agreement that there is a significant abuse by mega-corporations inside the halls of our government? do we enjoy watching our democracy sold to the highest bidders? do we condone the selling off of federal land and the "privatizing" of our national parks?

i feel no inclination to defend either Nader or the Greens ... i do, however, recognize that if Democrats are in the business of garnering votes, the persistent and pervasive tone embodied in your OP is highly counter-productive ... as a political party, we have a job to do ... we can blame those who run against us or vote against us when we believe what they have done has hurt the country; it seems we would be more effective in wooing them than in criticizing them ... doing so seems consistent with the majority beliefs in our party and would not be much of a stretch at all ...

2000 is getting old; it's time for a new, more inclusive vision that brings home the strays ...

btw, the REAL REAL reason we were stuck with bush I and bush II and all the rest of them is because big money dominates our political institutions and political power has been stolen from its rightful owners ... until that becomes the central focus of at least one major political party, ALL changes, no matter how much we fight for them and value them, will ultimately be transitory and illusion ... Democrats seemed trapped in a game that demands raising money from "dark sources" and demands selling our national soul to remain a player ... it is truly a catch 22 ... leadership and the best interests of the country and the American people demand that we find a new way to win ... in the long run, a party that serves the people above the special interests will enjoy generations of support ... making the transition from the hand that feeds us to a true servant of the people is the hard part ...
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Dear Mr. Terrier, I will add your reasoning to the growing list of reasons...
..people on DU say we're stuck with Bush.
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Pyrzqxgl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
15. all these arguments are OLD & TIRED. YAWN!
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Like the arguments in the thread that spawned this one? YAWN!
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. self-delete
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 08:40 PM by AtomicKitten
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
20. Deleting my post doesn't change facts.
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 06:44 PM by TechBear_Seattle
Nader had little to no effect in the 2004 election that put Bush back into office. To whine about it still is pointless and counter productive.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
21. nah - here's the real reason

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. In a sense -There are DETAILED reasons how BushInc revived their power after 1992
and I am quite certain that 1993 was 7 yrs before Nader's 2000 campaign.


In fact no Bush should have been running in Texas in 94 or Florida in 98 or preparing to run for president in 99 - long BEFORE the 2000 election. But it seems the coverup wing of the Democratic party will not admit the basic facts about Bush-Clinton-Bush.



http://consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html


>>>>>
If the full story of George H.W. Bush’s role in secret deals with Iraq and Iran had ever been made public, the Bush Family’s reputation would have been damaged to such a degree that George W. Bush’s candidacy would not have been conceivable.

Not only did Clinton inadvertently clear the way for the Bush restoration, but the Right’s political ascendancy wiped away much of the Clinton legacy, including a balanced federal budget and progress on income inequality. A poorly informed American public also was easily misled on what to do about U.S. relations with Iraq and Iran.

In retrospect, Clinton’s tolerance of Reagan-Bush cover-ups was a lose-lose-lose – the public was denied information it needed to understand dangerous complexities in the Middle East, George W. Bush built his presidential ambitions on the nation’s fuzzy memories of his dad, and Republicans got to enact a conservative agenda.

Clinton’s approach also reflected a lack of appreciation for the importance of truth in a democratic Republic. If the American people are expected to do their part in making sure democracy works, they need to be given at least a chance of being an informed electorate.
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Throd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
22. A retarded orangutan could have beaten Bush
Both Gore and Kerry ran shitty campaigns. Bush is such an intellectual lightweight and should have lost in a landslide both times. I don't know anybody personally who was fired up about voting FOR Kerry. They just voted for him out of a deep antipathy for Bush.

I don't agree with the Green Party on many issues, but I support any party to run a candidate.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:27 AM
Response to Original message
25. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 04:10 AM
Response to Original message
26. is this satire?
Or do you think there was no election fraud in 2004?
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rudy23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
27. Maybe if Gore hadn't chosen Lieberman, and hadn't run a horrendous campaign
that would've helped, too. Otherwise, it sounds really unaccountable to blame the guy who took a small number of votes away, when you should've blown your opponent out of the water.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. ... he still would have gotten the most votes of any Democrat in history?
Maybe so...?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
28. Nader did not run in 2004! Here is the real truth.
2000 - Gore won Florida but the GOP and SCOTUS stole the election with the complicity of the media. Not one Democratic Senator joined the House Black Caucus in challenging the Florida electoral votes. Democrats refused to reject the usurper Bush as Mexicans today are rejecting the usurper and pretender President Calderon. DLC called for moving on!

2004 - Kerry won Ohio, and may have won another Western state (New Mexico, I believe), but then Kerry did not follow Edward's advice to challenge the results.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Who's talking about 2004?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. The last election we had was in 2004
and here you are refighting 2000.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. LOL!
No, this thread was in response to one where the OP wanted to refight the election of '92.

But since you decided to grace us with your presence, the damage done by Bush began after 2000 - the election Nader handed to him.
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piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
33. I voted for Nader in 2000....
but I lived in Alabama. I damn well knew W had that state locked up. If I had lived Florida, though, I would CERTAINLY have voted for Gore. I have to wonder what "purple state" voters who went for Nader were thinking.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
34. I remember reading that in the last days of the campaigns, the Gore team
contacted Nader and pleaded with him to withdraw. I'll always remember Nader as someone who put his own ego above what was good for the country.

I, for one, won't forget.

Wonder if he still feels there's no difference between Gore and bush?

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Killarney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Absolutely.
Blood is on Nader's hands as far as I'm concerned.
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uncle ray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
38. i guess YOU could have done a little more back in 2000.
it's a little late now ain't it? why didn't you do more to encourage independents to vote for Gore in 2000? whatever you DID do, apparently it wasn't enough.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. LOL! I did plenty - but thanks for your concern
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
39. I personally worked very hard for Al Gore. He has always had my
vote and always will.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
40. The REAL reason
Kerry's campaign didn't suck. Nader didn't give aid & comfort to the enemy.



The election was stolen.
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