Well, we HAD the youth vote...

[Mythsaje]

Not sure that'll be the case next time around.

Not saying the Repubs will get it. More will probably abstain. Since I'd hazard a guess that every young person who would choose to go into military service has already done so, most young voters will probably say "no way" to a party that seems to be advocating a return to forced military service.

That said, I understand what Rangel is doing, and saying. And, as long as it goes no farther than opening up a debate on the subject, I can live with it.

But there are FAR too many people yelling "yeah!" for my tastes.

Not only NO, but FUCK NO.

My wife is for it--has been for a long time. So's my best friend. We've argued about it repeatedly.

I happen to think that stripping rights and freedoms from American citizens by threat of force (which is what the rule of law ultimately IS) contradicts everything a Democratic nation should stand for.

You want to end these bullshit wars? EDUCATE our kids. Don't force them to become pawns in some oligarch's schemes for world domination.

And, frankly, I don't give a stainless steel rat's ass what some European nations do. As has been pointed out to me on numerous occasions, we have a different culture here and what works there won't necessarily work here.

We've got far too many imperialists in position of power and influence to trust that the draft would even stop them. They ignored our protests THIS time around, didn't they? Thousands upon thousands of us went out and held signs and marched and they didn't give a SHIT.

You want to force someone to fight? Force the people who vote for the war in the first place. Take that fat old man out of his plush Congressional seat, slap some armor on him, shove a rifle in his hands, and fly him into a war zone.

Even HIS kids or grandkids don't deserve to die to further some other asshole's agenda.

[MichiganVote]

1. All this "dialogue" about a draft is a farce. Rangel wants to make a point

Fine, point made. Time to move on.

[Hippo_Tron]

2. Meanwhile Faux News convinces America that Democrats want to bring back the draft

Rangel should be smart enough to know that the media won't let him have his "dialogue" or make his point.

[MichiganVote]

3. ****Hooray**** Somebody gets it!! Besides this a test for Pelosi

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

22. Just keeping telling folks that they, or their kids, could go to Iraq, Faux News.

That'll give 'em a nice little jolt with their morning java.

And, yes, Speaker Pelosi has an opportunity to manage this. We'll see how she does. It's hardly as if it's the first time Congressman Rangel has made this proposal. MKJ

[MichiganVote]

32. You know I'm thinkin' this fiasco has been politicized enuf'

[beaconess]

4. I think Rangel knows a little more about politics and the media than you or I or anyone else here.

But it's still fun watching DUers sit on their computers lecturing to Charlie Rangel about how stupid and naive he is.

[Mythsaje]

5. And why is that, precisely?

Because they haven't been stumbling all over their feet the last several years? Letting the Corporate Media play them? Allowing ideological asshats onto the Supreme Court? Giving more power to a lunatic President and more money to spend on his war games?

No, that can't be it.

Huh. You got me.

[Erika]

8. Rangel has called the GOP hand on the Iraqi war

The Bushbots are in disarray.

[pnwmom]

25. He's not stupid OR naive. He's a grandstander.

He knows which side his bread is buttered on -- in HIS district. He apparently doesn't care what this does to the rest of the party, or to the country.

[Hippo_Tron]

30. Well all I know is that a friend called me last night...

Saying, "Is it really true that a Democrat wants to bring back the draft?" I had to explain to him that it was a stunt and that it wasn't going to happen.

[Bake]

31. I'm a VOTER.

I don't have to lecture anybody. I VOTE. People like Rangel need to remember that.

It was a damn sorry, stupid-ass stunt, Charlie. On top of that crack about Mississippi. What the f*ck are you smoking these days?

Bake

[Erika]

6. The Bush kids definitely should share in the suffering of our troops

Why do you think they are superior to others?

[Mythsaje]

7. If you think that'll ever happen

you're delusional.

You know what it takes for someone that wealthy to expatriate?

About thirty minutes and a plane ride to some tropical island.

The children of the elite will NEVER fight our wars.

[Erika]

9. So let it be known

The needy will do the fighting and the elitists GOP will be doing the flighting.

[Mythsaje]

12. I'm not willing to sacrifice MORE kids

to the beast in order to have the chance to say "I told you so."

[pnwmom]

27. There are plenty of Democrats who have opposed the war from

the beginning and also oppose having our children serving in it.

We don't want ANYONE's children in Iraq. Proposing a draft is a pretty odd way to achieve that.

[elehhhhna]

19. Not anymore. They closed that loophole after the guy from Dart Cup

and some other Ud s Buhzillionaires moved to Cayman, based their companies there,and gave surrendered their US citizenships. IIRC the law changed in the early 90's.

It's not so easy to renounce your US citizenship anymore, particuliarly if you're wealthy.

[Beam Me Up]

10. So happy to be the 5th rec.

This is the STUPIDIST and most DANGEROUS idea I've ever heard come from the Democrats.

I think I'm going to be ill.

Have we learned NOTHING in the past six years!

I can't fucking believe it.

[farmboxer]

11. Repubs loves the gift from Rangel. I like Rangel, understand

what his point is about, but it will put Repubs back into power, no doubt about it, just watch and see. Rove has been given such a huge gift before the pres campaign. We won't need a draft if Dems stay in power.

[KingFlorez]

13. It is not a serious effort

It's only to start debate, he knows there is no actual chance of this passing.

[Mythsaje]

14. Let's hope you're right...n/t

[pnwmom]

26. It's going to have a seriously damaging effect

on the public's perception of the Democratic Party. Check out the headlines. It's all about how a top Democrat or a senior Democrat or a leading Democrat or a powerful Democrat has proposed a draft.

[calmblueocean]

15. I'm 100% with you on this. You don't threaten a draft to make a point.

Being drafted into military combat is serious, life-and-death business. You don't fool around with it, the same way you wouldn't go up to a new mother and say, "I have some terrible news to tell you. Your baby just died of malnutrition a few minutes ago.... Just kidding! But it *could* if WIC isn't properly funded..."

[Mythsaje]

16. Chilling analogy...

And very true.

[loyalsister]

17. It's easy to be stuck in electoral politics

But, we're not there anymore, and people here really need to take off their little amatuer political consultant hats.

The larger issue is that anyone who really, honestly, truly believes that continueing the current course this war is on is a good idea should also be willing to support a draft given the fact that so many soldiers have more than over served.

There are a select few shouldering the burden of this war over and over again to their detriment and it's not fair. We have a representative government and Rangel is demanding answers from them. It is the obligation of those who ran on a platform of continued support to either support a draft or change course and advocate getting out.

If anyone here is really naive enough to believe such a debate and vote would be blacked out by the media is just blinded by their anger at media coverage. They make me mad, too. But I think that it's possible to go overboard in the reactions.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

18. Rangel is putting himself out there as a lone voice, truly representing his constituents.

I'm glad someone is finally asking why there is not a more equitable distribution of the burden, than the children of working poor in this country.

He may very well be ostracized by his colleagues for this. Judging from the freaking out being done just here on DU, he may be sacrificing his political career by waking up the somnolent masses to the reality that is this Iraq debacle.

MKJ

[Lasher]

21. If Rangel knows how to make military service fair for poor people...

I wonder why he hasn't applied his logic to the criminal justice system.

Let the knucklehead talk. The damage has already been done so what's the harm now? The notion is already implanted in some peoples' minds: "Democrats want to start up the draft."

[elehhhhna]

20. Well said. He's starting a dialogue that's long overdue.

[pnwmom]

28. How many of us support the war? And we damn well don't support

drafting OUR kids for the war we've NEVER supported.

[YOY]

23. Sing it Mythsaje

If this be a political ploy it is idiotic.

If this be actualy plans for the Dems were f***ed a hundred times over, because we will be hated, the 'Pubs will get the House and Senate, Repeal the draft, and look like heroes!

Folks in the office are already talking. GREAT JOB RANGEL...IDIOT!

[pnwmom]

24. Great post, mythsaje. The kids who turned out in droves to vote

for the first time in their lives are not going to thank Democrats for this.

All they're hearing from the mass media is that a "top Democrat" is proposing a draft. They not hearing the conventional DU "wisdom" that this is all just some sort of tactical ploy.

[Cameron27]

29. It's a terrible idea.

What are the stats on Vietnam because I remember it being disproportionately fought by the middle class and poor. The rich & powerful will always be able to pull a George W. Bush.

If Rangel wants to make a statement, he should draft a bill that sends the sons and daughters of lawmakers who vote for war; FIRST. Put senators and congressmen on notice, not the general public...that's a statement I'll stand behind, not this crap.

[Cleita]

33. We have to change the way we elect our leaders.

First campaign finance reform takes the patronage out of the system. This way a poor but smart and honest politician can run against an oligarch and have an equal chance at winning. Then we need to end the electoral college and institute runoff voting instead. Also, transparent elections with verified votes would be what seals the deal.

Only then will we be able to truthfully say that we have government for the people and by the people. Then there is a chance of ending this culture of war for profit for good.

[MirrorAshes]

34. You aren't giving young voters enough credit.

All it takes to make them understand Rangel's point is a quick explanation that the idea of a draft is the quickest way to end this war and ensure it never actually becomes necessary.

Democrats won't lose votes over this-- only allowing ignorance to prevail can do that.