Will we recognize when it is time to "throw off such government"?

[rhett o rick]

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security"

Will we recognize the point of no return. What happened on Sept 28 is huge. Essentially, Congress has indicated that they will not hold the President accountable to any law. He broke previous laws and has gotten a reward from the Congress. I wonder if he needs a signing statement for the Torture Law. Congress has just given him carte blanc to torture anyone, anywhere, anytime as he so chooses.

Joe Wilson look out.

[liberal N proud]

1. It is apparent now that they have committed the crimes mentioned

as cause to throw them off.

But who will be strong enough to rise up and take the charge at hand?

[HereSince1628]

2. Soon, I posted the same thing yesterday. It's obviously getting 'round.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2254265&mesg_id=2254265

[rhett o rick]

3. Sorry that I missed your earlier post. nm

[Jack Rabbit]

4. At that point, we negotiate like this

Liberty Leading the People (1830) by Eugène Delacroix
From the website of the University of Southern California

[Webster Green]

5. It is time. Hopefully some patriotic generals will sieze the WH...

...Drag Crashcart and the devil-chimp off to prison to face a trial for treason, and put Al Gore in charge of the country.

[rhett o rick]

6. I think that is a strong possibility. Maybe not Gore but Powell. nm

[stevietheman]

9. A constitutionally restorative coup may be necessary in the near future...

if the courts don't reverse what the Congress just did. Also, if Bush commits elective aggression against Iran, I think we will indeed need to encourage folks with special powers to overthrow the Bush Crime Syndicate, post haste.

[rhett o rick]

10. Yes i'm afraid you are right. The Dem's seem powerless.

Where is the line in the sand?

[pat_k]

7. We were bright enough to put the remedy for breach in our common contract

. . .IMPEACHMENT.

We just have to pull the heads of the so-called Democratic "opposition" out of the beltway sphincter.

They are heading home.

We can blast them at close range.

Voice Your Outrage: http://voiceoutrage.com">voiceoutrage.com

[rhett o rick]

8. What makes you think the Neocons will allow impeachment?

They have power now of, arguably, the strongest nation in the World, they won't let go for some measly impeachment process. First of all we may never get that far. On Sept 28, Congress said to the American people and the World that the President of the US, in war time, is not subject to the rule of law. Next step is unitary executive (dictator).

[pat_k]

11. Step-by-step. . .

It doesn't matter what I think "they'll" do. I can only know what I must do.

A faction that is fascist to the core has siezed power. We knew this could happen, and built in ways to re-assert our constitutional principles.

Our civil officials are people, no more, no less. How many oridinary citizens actually seek to talk to them? (i.e., FAX requests to schedulers to set up meetings with a Senator or Rep, or one of their staffers?)

1/1000th of 1 percent? More? Less?

Whatever the number, we need to do whatever we can to make it bigger. We can't know how successful our efforts to kick the so-called Democratic "opposition" into gear until we have actually tried to engage them through a lot more one-on-one exchanges with citizen lobbyists. The only way to inject reality is to get in there and do it. One way communication by itself is not powerful enough. We need more actual dialog. Not in some abstract sense. In the sense of you and me going, asking questions, and persisting until we get answers; challenging the "conventional wisdom" with sanity.

We can never forget the words of our declaration of independence, but if we believe in the power of our constitution, we have a moral obligation to fight within its principles as we fight for it. When we take the actions that our principles demand of us, "they" will react. What we think they will do cannot stop us. We are not omniscient. At each step, there is a new set of infinite possibilities and unforeseen events ahead.

There may come a time in which we have no alternative but to exercise our right to abolish the existing form of our government, but there are many avenues that have yet to be pursued before that day comes. To see and pursue the real possibilities before us, we must resist predictions of futility or doom.

. . .That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. . .

[rhett o rick]

12. Agree to resist predictions of doom, but also don't ignore reality.

The Neocons are marching toward tyranny, and they ain't taking baby steps. They haven't been even slowed down a bit. I don't see how they can be. I believe they will use any means to retain power. They are in the drivers seat owning the President, the Congress, the media and most likely the judiciary and having most major corporations and the wealthy on their side. I don't see a Democratic HOR stopping them. If they truly control the military they have it all.

[pat_k]

14. The harder they clamp down, the more they activate the resistance. . .

We tend to equate "realism" with predictions of doom and gloom. All too often, our "realism" is not realistic at all. For people who pride themselves on logic and rationality, it is mystifying how often we hear absolutist predictions -- when it not rational to believe in one's own omniscience. .

We need to recognize the need to counter our tendency to see the worst by making a conscious and concerted effort to see REAL possibilities -- which include both good and bad outcomes.

Whatever the outcome, when we choose to stand and fight for principle, there are ALWAYS benefits in taking up a fight.

With each new horror perpetrated by the fascists, more people wake up and say "I've Gotta Do Something!"

For too long, the notion that politics is for professionals ("people like me don't do that") or the belief that action is futile ("they have all the power, we can do nothing") has stopped people, and thus we became trapped in a vicious cycle of inaction=>hopelessness=>inaction. . .

But that "vicious cycle" has turned around. Every week, more people are "doing something," and they are seeing effects. We were told we would never, NEVER get a Senator to stand up on January 6th. We were ridiculed, even by House staffers working to expose the truth about Ohio. And guess what, people mounted their own efforts, and they "Got One."

We were told Alito was a done deal. Not a bump in the road ahead. Then people got on the stick, and successfully lobbied Senators to stand up and call on their colleagues to filibuster.

There have been countless victories, large and small, in the fight for our right to have confidence in our elections

People can dismiss the impact of what has been accomplished, but with each effort, more ordinary citizens flex their political muscles, they connect with each other, they learn from mistakes, and when others see a person "like me" out there doing something, it challenges their immobilizing belief that "someone like me doesn't do that."

As there are more and more ways to "do something," when a person does wake up and say "I've got to do something!" they are able to find ways to turn those words into action.

If fascists clamp down harder and harder in response to citizen action, the only thing they accomplish is to wake up more people.

The cool thing about an increasingly engaged citizenry is that there is no single target. We are everywhere. There is no head to cut off.

And the numbers only go one way. People have a need to be effective. When they learn the truth, they don't unlearn it. When they connect, act, and see an effect, they never again see themselves as "someone who doesn't do politics."

[rhett o rick]

16. Well written. I agree completely, but still think that it is helpful to

try to figure out their next move to enable quicker response. Or better, if we can alert the public what their likely next move is, it may take their surprise away.

[pat_k]

17. yes. . . and no. . .

Of course, evaluating the current conditions, and the potential rewards and consequences of a particular course of action is absolutely necessary.

And, part of that is attempting to anticipate the possible reactions.

But, once again, I think that trying to figure out what they will do is something "our side" does naturally -- and so there is no need to "try" to do it.

Of late, we have been spending too much time and energy on them, so we actually need to make a conscious attempt to do a bit less of it.

Our behavior is akin to an abused spouse -- hypervigilant about what our abuser is up to; when the next blow up might come; what to do to appease. . .

The reality is that the abused has no control over the actions of the abuser. The abuser could beat you up tomorrow or next month, whatever you do. The only way the abused can escape is by focusing on doing what they need to do (e.g., line up support system, bring charges, whatever). Sure, the steps you take to save yourself may evoke a reaction from the abuser, but the abuser may kill you tomorrow anyway, so you might as well just do what you know you should.

There are things our leaders seem to know they "should do," but they are stopping themselves because "they'll call us names" or "they'll hurt us". . .

As long as we permit our leaders to rationalize inaction in this way, we will remain under the thumb of the men who have seized and abused the power of the presidency.

[Greyhound]

13. The big problem is that they never gave us a mechanism to rid

ourselves of those who imagine themselves to be our masters.

Nothing short of a revolution will get these parasites out of the system. We are subject to a system of being ruled by one party with two faces. The details and methods vary, but the goals remain.

[pat_k]

15. Sure we did. . .

. . . We vested the power to impeach in Congress -- Our Voice.

The balance of Congress is not equally divided. We put a big fat thumb on the scales when we vested the power to impeach in Congress, and Congress alone.

And, we surrendered NONE of our sovereignty to ANY of the institutions we established under our constitution.

[pat_k]

18. Opps -- meant "balance of Power.. ."

[Greyhound]

23. I am speaking if some sort of "no confidence" popular vote.

There are several devices possible, but they really set up a two party system from the beginning and made no provision for what the citizens are to do when both choices are bad.

I'm convinced that this is why almost twice as many people don't bother to vote at all, and why "our" party, apparently, has no interest in convincing them that they should.

[IndianaGreen]

19. The time is now

The criminal cabal running this country must be arrested and punished.

[rhett o rick]

20. Agree, time is now. nm

[Le Taz Hot]

21. It is here now and no, we are not recognizing it.

I can understand the fundies and the ignorant and the wealthy going along with all this. What I can't understand is the attitude here: It's OK to torture people for just a little while -- what's most important is that we gain power. (Power for power sake. Where have I heard this before?)

Mods: As usual, feel free to delete due to a lack of lock-step position.

[Lost Nation]

22. When?

Wow... I don't know when.

Government sanctioned torture, searches and wiretaps without a warrant. Secret courts
(assuming you get any trial at all).

I know most DU'ers are anti-gun but there's a reason the founding fathers put the
2nd ammendment in the constitution and it does not have anything to do with
hunting or target shooting.

The reason for the 2nd ammendment is so that if it comes down to it, the people
will have the means to "throw off" a government gone bad.

[rhett o rick]

24. I don't think anyone here condones torture. But our choices to correct

this horrible tyranny are limited. What exactly do u suggest?