Learn the distinction between Pedophilles and Homosexuals

[MsUnderstood]

I think since I checked in 10 minutes ago, I've seen at least 4 references to Foley's homosexuality in one way or another.

Let me make this ABSOLUTELY CLEAR:

Foley is NOT a homosexual. He is a predator, a pedophile, a sick man who preys on the innoncence of children.

To make sexual jokes about Foley and other gays, to reference him as gay is NO BETTER than the idiot republicans who stood up during the DOMA Act and the "Gay Marriage Amendment" debates adn compared homosexuals to pedophiles, beastiality, etc.

To say Foley is a confused gay man is to WRONG WRONG WRONG. Foley is not a gay man who likes his relationships to be with young men, he is an ADULT who victimizes CHILDREN that happen to be male.

So STOP making jokes about Foley's homosexuality. It offends the victims, it offends the gays, it offends those of us who are smart enough to know the difference.

[Horse with no Name]

1. Thank you

This need to be said.
I must have seen the same posts but didn't reply to them because I only allow myself to piss off 20 people a week and I have already reached my quota.

[SharonAnn]

75. Most Child Sexual abuse is men with girls. Men with boys is less common

[Singular73]

2. Errr, its very possible he is gay.

The fact that this is even being elevated to the levels it is, is because the 16 year old page is male.

If she was female, he would not have resigned.

Guaranteed.


The Gender was the main issue -- not the age.

[ShortnFiery]

7. OH man, IF it was a 16 year old teen GIRL, he'd be figuratively strung up!

[Singular73]

9. Nah.

For IM'ing? He wouldn't have resign.

It still would have been a HUGE deal, but watch what happens in the next 2 weeks.

Republicans need to defend to their base that they KNEW about a GAY man hitting on a boy, and did NOTHING.

If it was a girl, the impact would be fractional.

[ShortnFiery]

14. No, if it were a girl, it would have been much worse.

[Singular73]

18. LOL ok

[Radical Activist]

114. That probably happens all the time

and would not be nearly as big a deal. I know that the female pages in the Illinois State Legislature are harassed by some members constantly and little to nothing is done about it.

[Touchdown]

13. Nope.

VERY few 16 year olds have enough facial hair to shave
or... Musclature to look "manly"
The emotional maturity to know what he's getting into.
Cannot join the military.
May be as tall as men, but still have gawky, teenage looka-lika girl hips, barely a chest and very puny arms.

Foiley is attracted to them despite their maleness. They are boys, not men, which is why the word "BOY" was invented.

GAY means men attracted to men. Men attracted to boys is pederasty. Once this boy reaches 19-21 years old, he will no longer be attractive to Foley, as he will then look too "manly".

[uppityperson]

33. are you saying that there is no such thing as gay boys?

That you can only be gay if you are a "man" attracted to another "man"? I would like to clarify this please. Thank you.

[Touchdown]

39. No. Do you always put words in people's mouths?

Yes, there are gay boys. They are usually attracted to other boys around their oown age group. When they grow, their taste in men also grow with them, just like I did. This is what's called maturing.

Did that satisfy your unreasonable demand for an audience tribute, or should I bow down before you and "clarify" some more, Your Worshipfulness?

[uppityperson]

43. No, but I try to politely ask for clarification rather than just assuming.

Especially with comments like "GAY means men attracted to men." I like to find out what the person means rather than assuming I understand. If you consider politely asking for clarification is an unreasonable demand for an audience tribute (your words copied), well, there you are.

I thought you meant that younger men/teenagers/boys have that androgynous look that some adult men find attractive, but wanted to check since "GAY means men attracted to men" could meant there are no gay boys. Thank you for clarifying.

[Touchdown]

47. Oh' so your pedantic. I was talking about a 50 year old, who were you?

It should have been implied in my message. I can't help you if you need to dissect sentences.

And now on to dissecting your sentence. Saying "please" after an obvious, librarian-like "Well, I would like to know just exactly WHEN you will return Tom Saywer Mr. Bundy?" is not in any way polite, especially since you drew your own conclusions as to what I said in the first two sentences of yours, with your accusatory, passive aggressive question obviously meant to be a gotcha rhetorical one, and taken as a whole in context, your entire post was condescending, and belittling, and it set me off. My apologies if that is not what you intended. After all, you said "politely" twice. How could I have doubted you when you repeated an adverb?

Excuse most of that. I'm really pissed at the here we go again DU "every repuke is gay/ and homos want to recruit children" shit again. It gets very old, and they should know better. I shouldn't be taking it out on individual DUers.:hi:

[uppityperson]

48. I get very tired of the gay crap too, and have let people have it.

I get really tired of the "they must be gay, teehee" as if that means squat for most anything. I did not intend to be passive agressive condescending belittling but did mean to be polite and ask for clarification before jumping to the conclusion that this was another stupid gay remark that needed blasting. Which it wasn't. And that was poor sentence structure. (being pedantic). Anyway, I did not want to assume. And am very tired of "gay" crap. And sexist crap. And all sorts of other narrow minded bigoted comments by DUers. So. We are on the same side and onward.

[Touchdown]

49. Sorry.

:hug:

[uppityperson]

50. no problem. Then there is

The Magistrate who knows how to say "go to hell you @#$^*(@#^(*$&)@$ Ma'am" which has really pissed me off. Come on, if you are going to cuss me out, just do it and leave off the honoric title. :toast: Goodnight.

[Touchdown]

3. K&R Thank you.

I've been rolling my eyes at this for the last hour. :applause:

One more time (not for you) :eyes:

[ShortnFiery]

4. Foley is a Sexual Predator Criminal because he's OBSESSED with

underage males. A minor is not mature enough to give informed consent. When parents send their High School Teen Children to D.C. they should be able to be confident that they are not regularly subjected to SEXUAL PREDATORS. Right in The House of Representatives. One of The Republican Leaders in the House of Representatives. That's not only criminal, that demented. :grr:

[Codeine]

5. Hitting on 16 year olds isn't pedophilia, either.

Pedophiles are attracted to the innocence and powerlessness of small children. A 16 year old is already too mature for that; in fact, 16 is the age of consent in many nations. Tossing words like "pedophile" around is no more responsible of you than those who you (rightfully) castigate.

[Singular73]

6. Yeppers.

Its the gender. Wake up.

[ShortnFiery]

11. Bull-shit! Hitting on anyone under the age of 18, is taking advantage of

youth. You can NOT give informed consent until you are 18 years old.

This man has sent Sexually Explicit IMs to both CURRENT and PAST underage MALE Pages!


Foley is obsessed with UNDERAGE males - what if he has seduced some of these pages?!?

Do you think ALL parents are going to be cool with this?

To be OBSESSED with underage males or females is PREDATORY.

Foley is a Sexual Predator.

[The Magistrate]

25. What He Is, Ma'am, Is A Homosexual Predator

Such creatures do exist.

[ShortnFiery]

36. Correct you are Sir. n/t

[Don1]

92. How do you know he doesn't also like to prey on teen girls?

[uppityperson]

30. legal age 16 for males in Florida, but Foley is still a Sexual Predatory

[Codeine]

63. If he were in a country where 16 was the Age of Consent

would he still be a "PREDATOR," or are people in other countries simply more capable of giving informed consent?

[ShortnFiery]

112. Yes, he would still be a predator because he TARGETS underage

males. The obsession and compulsion to have sex with those who are underage, is covered within many State's statutory rape laws.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised, if there are 15 y.o. Pages on Capitol Hill, that Foley has also IM'd them with Sexually explicit content. :(

[babylonsister]

12. OK, he's not a pedophile. What would the term be to

get a woody on the internet, when the requester is in his 40s, and the person he's communicating with is 16?
Seriously, I'd like to know.

[ShortnFiery]

16. He is obsessed with underage teen boys - He's a SEXUAL PREDATOR.

[babylonsister]

26. Thanks. No need to yell. nt

[ShortnFiery]

29. Yes it is - because it's A CRIME ! ! !

[donheld]

51. "OK, he's not a pedophile. What would the term"

The term is "Criminal." A sex offender who should have to register as such after he's released from prison. Why hasn't he been arrested yet? In this case breaking laws he himself fought to put in place. I hope he is punished to the fullest extent of HIS own laws.

[carolinayellowdog]

54. Ephebophile

Somewhere I've seen the distinction between attraction to pre-pubescent boys versus teenagers, with this term used for the latter.

[tbyg52]

74. The word sounds exact,

and being a Mary Renault fan, I can figure out what it means from the root word.

Still, can't I just call Foley a "JERK"....? ;)

[mongo]

61. The term for soliciting a minor for sex

is "importuning", and it's a felony here in Ohio.

The term for being attacted to teenagers is not pedophilia it is ephebophilia

The APA's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 4th edition, Text Revision gives the following as its "Diagnostic criteria for 302.2 Pedophilia"<26> :

* Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).
* The person has acted on these urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies cause marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.
* The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

Ephebophilia has been defined as a sexual preference in which an adult is primarily or exclusively sexually attracted to postpubescent adolescents. It comes from the Greek: έφηβος (ephebos) variously defined as "one arrived at puberty", "a youth of 18 who underwent his dokimasia and was registered as a citizen (Athens)", and "arriving at man's estate"; and φιλία (-philia) "love".<1> Despite this classical etymology it is a term of recent coinage, created by psychologist John Money in the late twentieth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophilia

[adamuu]

102. "Pederast"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty

"Currently, in the news media the term tends to be incorrectly used as a synonym for pedophilia, even though the latter designates the sexual attraction of adults to prepubescent boys or girls."

[MsUnderstood]

19. Sorry you've got that mixed up

Just cause a child is in puberty does not mean sexually molesting him or her is now okay.

Foley took his position of authority and used it to try to get children to have sex with him or perform sexual acts for him.

If this was my 16 year old being hit on by this old guy you can bet my voice would be loud enough to be heard in heaven and hell.

At 16 a child does not legally (at least in my forward thinking state of California) have the legal ability to consent to Sex with an ADULT. I know that there is a scale of ages (i.e. if person one is 16 and person 2 is 19 then there maybe special consideration given) but if the child is 16 and the adult is 2 times his age then a crime of pedophila has been committed.

The problem with your logic is that it allows abuses of teens in their lost years cause you want to blame the victim.

[Codeine]

62. Don't put words in my mouth.

I'm not excusing anything, or blaming any victim. I'm just saying that "pedophile" is not the correct terminology here. "Ephebophile" is probably a more accurate term.

[gully]

56. Debra LaFave went to jail for taking advantage of a teen.

I dunno, slippery slope. But "technically" you are correct.

[jberryhill]

67. The difference being that he was one of her students

The age of consent is 16 in many states.

The issue with teachers, doctors, employers, and other adults in a position of responsibility over older teenagers is not an "age of consent" issue. It is an abuse of that position. That's why in states where the age of consent is 16, there is usually an entirely separate section of the relevant statutes that makes it illegal in a situation where there the sexual contact occurs within the context of a relationship involving professional responsibility.

[gully]

77. Foley WAS in a position of authority over this young man.

He was a WH page.

[jberryhill]

91. If you are talking about the one in the emails...

...then you are wrong. That one was a former page.

It remains to be seen precisely what he communicated with any then-current pages. Although it will probably be seen pretty soon, now.

And, again, the thing about state laws "in general" on the subject (remembering that we are not discussing any particular state law here) is that we are talking about "age of consent" and "position of authority" in relation to actual sexual contact between an adult and a person aged 16+. Sexual contact has not, as yet, been alleged here.

[gully]

94. You're adding info that does not pertain to this scandal at hand.

For example - Actual sexual contact is not needed to prosecute someone for internet sex crimes. Dateline demonstrates that on a regular basis.

Also -


1. The age difference is applicable under most state laws, in spite of the age of consent issue in this case.

2. The page said that he and other "pages" were warned about Foley upon being trained for their positions

3. The kid was a KID and this guy was speaking in a sexually inappropriate manner to a person who was NOT INTERESTED

4. Foley was instrumental in strengthening laws against "internet preditors" and he was apparently one himself

5. Foley got the kids IM somehow? Likely when he was a page at the WH, it doesn't freaking matter if the kid is no longer working for him, he used his position of authority to obtain trust/information. A teacher still is seen as an authority figure for students who perhaps move on to attend another school.

6. Republicans KNEW he was preying on youth who worked in their offices and did nothing.


Your defending Foley and the Republicans, why?

[jberryhill]

95. I beg your pardon, I am not defending anyone

As an ethical issue, it is clear that the GOP fish stinks from the head down here.

As a legal issue, I'm looking for a criminal statute that was violated. "Dateline" is not a citation to a criminal statute. Yes, soliciting a minor beneath a jurisdiction-dependent age for sex and arranging a meeting is certainly illegal.

If you are going to criminalize every teacher that marries a former student, then you are going to need more prison space. It happens, and it happens perfectly legally.

Yes, you are correct that a lot of state laws include an age difference factor for actual sexual contact. I still fail to see the relevance here.

Your suggestion that I am "defending" some asshole who sends sexually explicit emails to a sixteen year old is insulting and revolting. I am a parent of a fifteen year old son, and if it was my kid, there wouldn't be any Foley walking the streets alive to resign, dig?

But if you cannot cite a single relevant statute, then it is also incorrect to be calling someone a "criminal".

Not every piece of sleazy, unethical, immoral, scumbag behavior is illegal. The sleazy, unethical, immoral and scumbag part is pretty well established here. I'm interested in figuring out if a law - a specific criminal statute in a relevant jurisdiction - was broken.

You are not interested in determining whether there was a criminal act committed here? Why? You don't want there to be a criminal investigation? Why are YOU jumping on someone who is asking questions relevant to whether a criminal act was committed?

[gully]

96. So you're equating Foley to a teacher who marries an adult former student?

I'm not, perhaps that's the difference. I'm talking about those in position of authority over "children."

As for a criminal investigation, of course I want an investigation, I'm not the one questioning whether or not he broke the law, silly hunch - HE DID! I understand the points your making - 1. the child was technically the "age of consent," 2. he was no longer in a position of authority over said child. But, in spite of those things it is my understanding that his recent former position of authority over this child and the age difference can come into play? Also - The R's knew of SEVERAL advances toward "underage" boys and did nothing. Further, I hope the investigation affords more than just the arrest of Foley.

It is possible that because he was so familiar with the laws, he found a way around them, but I highly doubt he did. See here:

But mainly, dear friends, the Republican leadership all committed felonies according to the strict letter of the law called - the "Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act of 2006," which the President signed into law (with Mark Foley standing behind him). By definition, then, they consider the acts in which Foley apparently engaged to be criminal. They even enhanced the penalties for this conduct. For those purposes, it doesn't really matter what states have designated as the age of consent because House Republicans have declared it to be a federal crime to solicit or discuss sexual acts with someone under the age of 18.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2269103&mesg_id=2269103

[jberryhill]

103. No, but thanks for taking comments out of context in the thread

it doesn't really matter what states have designated as the age of consent because House Republicans have declared it to be a federal crime to solicit or discuss sexual acts with someone under the age of 18.

I'd appreciate a pointer to the text of this law as codified in 18 USC.

You are saying that if I tell an off-color joke to my teenage son, then I am a felon? Is that correct? You believe it is a federal crim to "solicit or discuss", which means that "discuss" alone is sufficient, sexual acts with someone under the age of 18. So, you believe that every sex-ed teacher and Planned Parenthood staffer should be locked up.

Got it. Understood.

Somehow, I'm willing to believe that the law is probably narrower than you believe it to be.

I believe in the rule of law, and not this Bush Administration stuff of "we don't like it, so we'll designate you a criminal and lock you up" notion. I'm just asking to see a criminal statute, that's all. Sorry you don't understand that.

[gully]

108. YOU sight the laws.

knock yourself out: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h109-4472

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c109:4:./temp/~c109WzxyIW::

As for this statement: Somehow, I'm willing to believe that the law is probably narrower than you believe it to be.

Check the link above to the thread that mentioned the Adam Walsh Law, it's not simply ME that believes that Foley committed a crime. The FBI is in the process of investigating him as we speak.

Somehow, I'm willing to believe that Foley's actions are not as "narrow" as you believe them to be.

Here is one tidbit I found in my research:

A Florida law makes it a third-degree felony, punishable by up to five years in prison, to transmit “material harmful to minors by electronic device.” The law defines the material broadly to include descriptions of “nudity, sexual conduct, or sexual excitement.” There is an exception for materials with serious literary, artistic, scientific and political value. The e-mail messages disclosed to date appear to fail that test, though they may have serious political value in a different sense.

And Mr. Foley is not the only person who could possibly face prosecution, Professor Berman said. “If there were people who knew about him or protected him,” he said, “some sort of complicity or conspiracy charge is certainly viable.”

http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2006/10/foley_and_the_l.html

As has been pointed out, the Adam Walsh act redefined "minor" on a federal level to be 18 years of age. Time will tell what happens to Mr. Foley.

[jberryhill]

110. Okay... I just read the entire Adam Walsh law, and...

I can't see anything relevant to engaging in sexual IM's. Did you have a specific section in mind? Lots of stuff in there about the production and distribution of visual depictions constituting child pornography.

Newspaper articles and blogs are a poor substitute for actually reading statutes. The Florida statute mentioned above says:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0847/SEC0137.HTM&Title=-%3E2006-%3ECh0847-%3ESection%200137#0847.0137

847.0137 Transmission of pornography by electronic device or equipment prohibited; penalties.--

(1) For purposes of this section:

(a) "Minor" means any person less than 18 years of age.

(b) "Transmit" means the act of sending and causing to be delivered any image, information, or data from one or more persons or places to one or more other persons or places over or through any medium, including the Internet, by use of any electronic equipment or device.

(2) Notwithstanding ss. 847.012 and 847.0133, any person in this state who knew or reasonably should have known that he or she was transmitting child pornography, as defined in s. 847.001, to another person in this state or in another jurisdiction commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

The relevant definition from Section 847.001 is:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0847/Sec001.HTM

(3) "Child pornography" means any image depicting a minor engaged in sexual conduct.


I believe you continue to misconstrue my intent. I'd like to see Foley nailed, and I'd like to get some idea of what specific act he should be nailed for.

I saw, to the extent I could stomach, the IM exchange where he is discussing masturbation technique with a former page. Not having studied it in detail (becaise it's too far out on the "sick" scale for me to read carefully), I didn't see any particular solicitation. If there is a solicitation, then we are probably within the ballpark of a defined offense. But I'm having a hard time believing there is a blanket criminal law on "talking dirty with teenagers".

I would imagine the current "investigating" being done by the FBI is to turn up additional communications and to figure out what specific law was broken here.

[gully]

117. It depends upon how the laws are interpreted.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0847/SEC001.HTM&Title=->2006->Ch0847->Section%20001#0847.001

For example:

(6) "Harmful to minors" means any reproduction, imitation, characterization, description, exhibition, presentation, or representation, of whatever kind or form, depicting nudity, sexual conduct, or sexual excitement when it:

(a) Predominantly appeals to the prurient, shameful, or morbid interest of minors;

(b) Is patently offensive to prevailing standards in the adult community as a whole with respect to what is suitable material for minors; and

(c) Taken as a whole, is without serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value for minors.

Also note that Florida defines minor as anyone under the age of 18:

(8) "Minor" means any person under the age of 18 years.


Does Foley meet the criteria for criminal behavior? I think so. But, I'm becoming nauseated with the subject matter, so I'm moving on.

[jberryhill]

118. That part I get...

...and interpretation is based on how any statute has, or has not, been found to apply in the past.

That section is the definition section, so you have to add on top of those definitions, one of the specific sections on what, exactly, one does with "material harmful to minors". Whether "depiction" in this FL statute includes a textual description has probably been gone over in prior cases.

I also get the "nausea" factor here, which is why I don't practice criminal law. There's "illegal" and there's "downright skin-crawling creepy", and those two things don't necessarily coincide neatly.

But given something like:

"Is patently offensive to prevailing standards in the adult community as a whole with respect to what is suitable material for minors"

To get a handle on that, one would want to know things like, "How many parents in the community allowed their minors to see the scene in American Pie which shows a teenager having sexual relations with an apple pie?"

[WinkyDink]

85. The law does not so distinguish; why do you?

[Codeine]

100. The law

doesn't use the term "pedophile." I don't think we should either, at least not in this case.

[Zynx]

90. I'm sorry, but 16 year olds dating is one thing. 52 year olds with 16 year

olds is just wrong. That's predatory taking advantage of the ignorant and naive nature of 16 year olds.

[Codeine]

101. No doubt.

It's just not pedophilia.

[JerseygirlCT]

98. I believe pederast is the correct term. nt

[Radical Activist]

115. Not just other nations, but in some states

16 is of legal age. Its only recently that our society has decided that 16 is too young to have sex.

[babylonsister]

8. Recommend. And thanks for clarifying that. nt

[kestrel91316]

10. He is a homosexual pedophile as opposed to a heterosexual

pedophile. Mere statement of fact. No judgment against gays intended or implied.

[Singular73]

15. Oh come on - For Gods sakes people

This is why democrats lose elections.

Because they choose to live in a fantasy world of stuffed animals and unicorns where the public views heterosexuality and homosexuality the same way, and all are happy in the land of nod.

The fact that this was a male-male 'relationship' amplifies this by a factor of 100.

Can we deal with this?

[ShortnFiery]

20. OH for Heaven's sake, we disagree with you. UNDERAGE

High School students are sent by their parents to go Page at THE esteemed CONGRESS. The Representatives are breeching their trust by allowing Sexual Predators (anyone Representative who is obsessed with underage teens) freely interacting with them. Especially when they are in HIGH positions of power. A Republican Representative.

We disagree. ;)

[kestrel91316]

21. What's to "deal with"???? It's the Repukes who will have to deal with

the sheer unmitigated gall of Foley's hypocrisy.

They'll also have to deal with the fact that they (Repukes) hate gays.

Me? I have no problem with gays being gays. I have a BIG problem with abuse of power, sexual predation and abuse of minors, and HYPOCRISY.

[TomInTib]

23. Whoa!! A logical response, no less..

Thank you for saying it so clearly.

[pnwmom]

17. Are you saying that a man who finds 16 year old girls attractive

is not heterosexual?

Wrong.

A 58 year old who grooms a 16 year old, especially when in a position of authority, is a sexual predator.

If the man grooms a 16 year old boy in his care, then he is a most likely a gay sexual predator. if he grooms a 16 year old girl in his care, then he is most likely a heterosexual predator.

[MsUnderstood]

22. Sexual crimes are not about sex

Do you think when a man rapes another man (for exampe in prison) it is for sexual gratification or control of the victim?

Do you think that when a man rapes a woman it is for sexual gratification or to gain control of the woman?

(obviously those are rhetorical and you should answer "control of the victim" or head to wikipedia for a refresher course on sexual crimes)

A SEX CRIME is NEVER about the sexuality of the PREDATOR or the victim.

If a man "grooms" a 16 year old boy he is a predator who prefers male victims.

By defining him as GAY SEXUAL predator you are WRONGLY associating the word GAY with a crime.

WE would not define a rapist as a HETEROSEXUAL rapists because he raped a woman, we would call him a RAPIST.

[ShortnFiery]

27. Well, with sexual predators it's power and THEIR kind of kinks

So yes, they get their "thrills" with using their manipulative skills to seduce a underage victim.

It's a demented power trip - but it's for Their Sexual Satisfaction. Sex is part of the power trip.

It's intertwined but I know and agree with the POWER aspect of seduction.

[babylonsister]

31. This is an over-the-internet crime AFAIK.

It was sexual, Foley was sexual, but did he touch anyone and if not, is that a crime?

[uppityperson]

35. Florida statute, with intermediary bits cut out to leave relevant bits

800.04 Lewd or lascivious offenses committed upon or in the presence of persons less than 16 years of age.--
(7) LEWD OR LASCIVIOUS EXHIBITION.--
(b) A person who:
3. Intentionally commits any other sexual act that does not involve actual physical or sexual contact with the victim, including, but not limited to, sadomasochistic abuse, sexual bestiality, or the simulation of any act involving sexual activity live over a computer on-line service, Internet service, or local bulletin board service and who knows or should know or has reason to believe that the transmission is viewed on a computer or television monitor by a victim in this state who is less than 16 years of age, commits lewd or lascivious exhibition. The fact that an undercover operative or law enforcement officer was involved in the detection and investigation of an offense under this paragraph shall not constitute a defense to a prosecution under this paragraph.

-----------------------------

So, the problem I can see, legally that is, is the age. Yes, Foley is a Sexual Predator who uses his age and status to have power over this 16 yr old. I am not sure of all Florida law, but most states have something also about age differences also.

[BREMPRO]

82. many states also make a distinction between same sex...

and opposite sex contact. the legal age of consent in most states is 16, except in some cases for same sex it's often 18 or higher. There are also stricter rules if the offender was in a position of authority over the victim. In FL there is this statute:

794.05 Unlawful sexual activity with certain minors.--

(1) A person 24 years of age or older who engages in sexual activity with a person 16 or 17 years of age commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. As used in this section, "sexual activity" means oral, anal, or vaginal penetration by, or union with, the sexual organ of another; however, sexual activity does not include an act done for a bona fide medical purpose.


Looks like Foley's in trouble... guess depend on how you define "sexual activity" is lewd internet chat considered "sexual activity"?? also what state's law's apply? where he resides? where the victim resides? what state's laws apply in cyberspace?

[ShortnFiery]

38. Perhaps more information will come out.

This (Internet IMs) has been a pattern of Foleys at least since 2003. The published IMs from another underage Page by ABC were also Sexually Explicit. I wonder if this particular Page (2003) or any other male underage Page in the past have been seduced by Foley?

People don't just "start up" this obsession. Foley has been obsessed with underage males for a long time. There's a history there that just may partially be revealed. Stay tuned. :P

[babylonsister]

45. This was all new to me about Foley, Hell, I found out

today that Lindsay Graham might be gay. I could care less and have no problems with gay people, but there's a pattern of dishonesty in the repug party. Doih. I'm a rube...:D

[ShortnFiery]

24. Well put!

It's the OBSESSION with those who are underage. Note how they all seem to flatter their victims by making a point of noting how much MORE mature they are as compared to the other High School Students they interact with? They lure them in and groom them for sex.

Yes, Foley is obsessed with underage male pages - he's a Sexual Predator, who sexual orientation is homosexual.

[Ninja Jordan]

70. He is gay

it's been rumored for years. He declined to run for Senator because of the gay rumors.

[Touchdown]

76. Gay rumors does not make one gay.

Try again. Gay people develop their attractions naturally throughout their lives. As they mature, the people their attracted to also change with their age, just like with str8 people. Sure, young people will always be attractive, but those young people are usually above a certain age (like 25 for example) for a normal gay person, and even then, most older gay men are more than happy to just appreciate the sight of young men, but the emotional maturity required in relationships can only be fulfilled with others with a few more years and miles on them.

Pedophiles do not develop naturally. No matter what the sex of the minor. The pedophile is permanently stuck in an adolescent sexual attraction spin that as of yet, no therapy can bring them out of. It's a sexual form of arrested development. Many psychologists believe that when your normal sexuality is repressed by you or society, then you stop growing sexually. This is one hypothesis they were studying about pedophile priests, and the repressed teachings of chastity for any who serve the church, aslmost all who enter the seminary in their early teens, a time when sexuality is forming.

[Ninja Jordan]

79. Ok, so he's just a pedophile when it comes to males, and

hetero the rest of the time?

[Touchdown]

80. That's right.

I know you were trying to point out the black to my white, in an attempt to point out some imagined illogic on my part, but you got it correct in spite of yourself.

Sexuality is not 2 dimensional. He IS married, so it's logical that he's Hetero as well as a chicken hawk (sexual term for one who goes after teens, not draft dodging warmonger).

[Ninja Jordan]

81. Plenty of gay people marry the opposite gender

Look at McGreevey. One of my law profs was married for years and actually had a son, and now she is with another woman. In Foley's case, he could be along the same vein, i.e., married a woman in an attempt to put up the 'hetero' facade when in reality he is gay, with pedaphilia tendancies.

[Touchdown]

106. Are you close to him?

Does he confide in you? If not, it's irresponsible to make assumptions about what he is or what motivates him.

He is on YOUR team until further notice. Stop trying to push him on gay people... and yes, that's what you're doing.

[uppityperson]

28. Florida age of consent for males is 16. Here is an interesting link

This website has links to some Florida statutes, here is an intersting one. Looks like age is 16. And the problem is not simply "pedophile" but an adult who preys on 16 yr old of same sex.

http://moraloutrage.net/staticpages/index.php?page=Florida

800.04 Lewd or lascivious offenses committed upon or in the presence of persons less than 16 years of age.--
(7) LEWD OR LASCIVIOUS EXHIBITION.--
(b) A person who:
3. Intentionally commits any other sexual act that does not involve actual physical or sexual contact with the victim, including, but not limited to, sadomasochistic abuse, sexual bestiality, or the simulation of any act involving sexual activity

live over a computer on-line service, Internet service, or local bulletin board service and who knows or should know or has reason to believe that the transmission is viewed on a computer or television monitor by a victim in this state who is less than 16 years of age, commits lewd or lascivious exhibition. The fact that an undercover operative or law enforcement officer was involved in the detection and investigation of an offense under this paragraph shall not constitute a defense to a prosecution under this paragraph.

[ShortnFiery]

34. This age of consent Bull Shit doesn't matter when we are talking about

a United States Congressman.

When Parents send their teenage children to go Page in The Congress, they should not be subjected to Sexual Predators.

Foley is a Sexual Predator because he is OBSESSED with underage male Pages.

I wonder if the sexually explicit IMs that have surfaced from 2003 may involve an male page who just may be 15 y,o.? :wow:

Let's not mince words ---> he's OBSESSED with underage males.

We can also suggest the possibility that he may have seduced one or more of them. :wow:

That's predation. :grr:

[uppityperson]

37. Foley is a Sexual Predator. We agree. Age of consent matters yes/no

This was been in response to your #11 "You can NOT give informed consent until you are 18 years old" and others about age of consent. The age of consent DOES matter, under the law. However, most states also have laws about age differences, and power position differences since these can be an issue, like in this case. We are in agreement with the problem here, and agree Foley is a sexual predator.

[ShortnFiery]

41. Age of Consent does NOT matter if there is a long and twisted pattern

of Sexually Explicit IMs with Underage teenage males. Well, let me qualify: It doesn't matter in the long run because with very little effort, there will be evidence of 15 y.o. and younger males being IM'd by Foley. Do you really think that all male Pages that he was attracted to were all 16 y.o.?

Because such predatory behavior becomes an obsession, you can safely bet your paycheck that he has not only exchanged sexually explicit IMs with males younger than 16 y.o. but that the odds are that he has seduced males under the age of consent for that state.

When you hold a position of power over minors, the age of consent may keep you out of jail, but it will not keep your job.

Further, because it's a pattern with him (Sexually Explicit IMs with current and past underage male Pages), the ODDS are that he's "crossed the age of consent line" SEVERAL TIMES.

It's an obsession with Sexual Predators. :(

[uppityperson]

44. Age of consent also doesn't matter if there is a big age/power difference

I am not saying that everyone he was attracted to was at least 16, just this one was. Regardless of the page being 15 or 16 or 17 or 18 or..., there was a power difference between them that was wrong.

[ShortnFiery]

46. Understood. Thanks for making that point again - finally got it! :-) n/t

[BREMPRO]

83. it's clearly wrong, but it may still not be illegal if he was 16+

LEGAL age of consent in most states is 16, but in some states, same sex is 18 or higher. but there are many other questions here:

what states laws apply?
is lewd chat considered "sexual activity" by law?
if he solicited sex from them, and they are under the age of consent, it's illegal, but what about the reported lewd chatting?

FL statute:

794.05 Unlawful sexual activity with certain minors.--

(1) A person 24 years of age or older who engages in sexual activity with a person 16 or 17 years of age commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. As used in this section, "sexual activity" means oral, anal, or vaginal penetration by, or union with, the sexual organ of another; however, sexual activity does not include an act done for a bona fide medical purpose.

[jberryhill]

104. You aren't allowed to ask that question...

if he solicited sex from them, and they are under the age of consent, it's illegal, but what about the reported lewd chatting?

I've been accused of "defending" Foley by asking that question.

There's no doubt that what we know so far is pretty creepy. But suggesting that there is a law which makes any sort of sexually-oriented discussion with a 16 year old illegal would sweep a whole lot of legitimate activity into such breadth. I'd be fascinated to know how one teaches teenagers about contraception or disease prevention without some sort of discussion of sexual activity.

Is there an IM log where Foley actually solicits sex?

[ShortnFiery]

111. Most people, especially those with teens, put that in the Creepy

category. It's not about Pedophilia vs. Heter/Homo Sexuality.

If it meets certain standards and is an obsession with the Perpetrator, it's criminal and the person is labeled a "Sexual Predator" - after he/she is tried and convicted there every MOVE will be listed on Sexual Predator data bases for the rest of their lives.

Why? Repeatedly targeting underage teens for sex, whether it be homo or heterosexual in nature is both a sickness and a crime.

Gee, I thought I could get testy :( ... let's meet in the middle with a compromise? :hi:

[jberryhill]

113. No question there

My only question, and having been chronically misinterpreted here, I should probably just hang it up is...


If it meets certain standards and is an obsession with the Perpetrator, it's criminal


That which defines "criminal" is conduct that violates a criminal statute.

The Florida criminal statutes, for example, are here:

Obcenity Offenses:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0847/titl0847.htm

Now, there's a Chinese menu of offenses which, in combination, constitute a "Sexual Predator" for the purposes of Florida law here:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0775/Sec21.HTM

[jberryhill]

68. You are correct...

...in that even when the age of consent is 16, there is normally a separate provision dealing with abuse of positions of responsiblity.

Not wanting to go into a lot of detail on this tawdry story, my question then is whether the teen in question was still a page at the time of the communication.

(and as far as is known thus far, we are not even dealing with actual sexual contact, but sexually explicit discussions)

So far we have a middle-aged guy who has engaged in smutty talk with a 16 year old over the internet.

Okay, Madonna is a middle-aged woman who engages in smutty talk with my 16 year old son over MTV.

It would be helpful for someone to identify a criminal statute which has been violated before shouting "IT'S A CRIME!"

[lumberjack_jeff]

88. Madonna doesn't "communicate with a minor for immoral purposes"

Foley did, and if convicted in my state, he'd rightfully be required to register as a sex offender.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.68A.090

[jberryhill]

89. I'd want some more definition of "immoral purposes"

Is there a definition section in that chapter?

If I am trying to persuade a teenager to overeat, is promoting gluttony an "immoral purpose"?

[lumberjack_jeff]

99. Any jury would say this qualifies.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.68A&full=true

[jberryhill]

105. And you'd have no trouble finding the right jury...

...to decide that teaching teenagers about contraception is an "immoral purpose".

Aside from which, I'm unclear as to how a Washington state statute has any bearing on this situation.

[lumberjack_jeff]

107. 'cuz I don't know jack shit about florida, la or DC law.

ergo the disclaimer "in my state".

[hootinholler]

32. 28 replies and it just now gets to greatest?

I guess that means this was needed all the more.

-Hoot

[Pachamama]

40. Actually, he is both...as well as someone guilty of sexual harrasment in

work place.

Not sure how you define "homosexuality" but he is clearly turned on sexually by 7 1/2 inch cock and masturbation by a male....

The pedophilia is because he is sexually approaching someone underage.

The sexual harrassment is because these are people in lower ranking positions in the workplace that he is coming on to and he is in a position of power.

I don't care if Foley is gay...but pedophilia and sexual harrassment is not okay. I don't think anyone has been making fun of Foley being Gay or making jokes. If there is any response that may resemble "joking" of him being gay, its because most people, myself included, are disgusted by all the Republicans that want to prohibit Gay Marriage and tout their "Family Values" and then are running around and soliciting young males and are clearly closeted homosexuals.

[AtomicKitten]

42. His homosexuality is irrelevant.

The fact that he is a sexual predator and pedophile is the issue.

I think people here really do understand the difference, but allude to his homosexuality as well because of the hypocrisy of the GOP en masse on the subject.

[mom cat]

52. Thank you so much for starting this thread. The repukes will try

hard to spin this as a gay issue. We must stand firm and say that Foley is a pedophile, period. I have already had to hit the alert button on this. Stay alert!

[mom cat]

53. I just checked. The message was deleted. I sent a thank you to the

Mods for deleting it.

[gully]

55. You are absolutely right. What's wrong with this picture has nothing

to do with the sex of his victim. It has to do with the cover-up, the hypocrisy, the fact that he was hitting on a young person who he was in a position of power over, and the fact that he was living a lie and his family now will pay the price.

[NVMojo]

57. FROM NYTs TODAY

snip...

Questions about his sexuality swirled beginning with his first run for Congress, when his opponent in the Republican primary sent out mailings saying Mr. Foley was gay. He was single and seemed uncommonly focused on politics. He sometimes referred to his sister, Donna, who often served as his campaign manager, as his “surrogate wife.”

In 2003, when he was considered the front-runner in a crowded primary race for the Senate seat being vacated by Bob Graham, Mr. Foley gave a news conference to condemn rumors that he was gay but refused to say whether he was. A few months later, he dropped out of the race, saying he needed to spend more time with his father, who had prostate cancer. Many believed he had left the race to avoid questions about his sexual orientation.

“There were accusations made that he was gay, and clearly that had an impact on him deciding not to run for Senate,” said Jim Kane, the chief pollster for Florida Voter, a nonpartisan polling organization. “He knew the scrutiny was clearly going to be much different once he stepped up a notch.”

Mr. Foley reportedly sent the messages to the first page in August 2005.

snip...


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/30/us/30foley.html?th&emc=th

I have never understood how a homosexual could be part of the GOP Nazis.

[JerseygirlCT]

60. His sexual orientation is really beside the point

His pederasty is the point.

[TWiley]

58. The Majority of children are abused by

heterosexual married males. Sexual or otherwise. Furthermore, far more religious people abuse children than do homosexuals.

I am a heterosexual ..... What does this mean?

Hopefully nobody will apply the same logic to me that they do to the homosexual community.

[JerseygirlCT]

59. Amen. This is such an important distinction

Confusing homosexuality with pathology only helps the bigots.

The man preys on children. THAT'S the problem.

[Imagevision]

64. Distinction between Pedophille and Predator Folie??...

[mitchtv]

66. real simple

Pedophile refers to PRE_pubescent children- Not post pubescent
a 'hebeophile"sp yes, predator, yes Pedophile NO

[mcscajun]

65. Damn right. Pedophilia is a very specific disorder.

Pedophilia = being sexually attracted primarily or exclusively to prepubescent or peripubescent children.

Social use has also extended it to significantly older adults who are sexually attracted to adolescents below the local age of consent as well as those who have sexually abused a child.

Certainly he's a sexual predator, certainly he took advantage of his position and the inexperience and immaturity of his target, certainly the attraction AND the actions were massively inappropriate, but the man is no pedophile.

Whether he's exclusively homosexual, bisexual, or pansexual is irrelevant; he pursued an unhealthy and inappropriate relationship with someone at least partially under his care/authority, if not technically so.

Condemnation is underway, and rightly so, just don't call him a pedophile...it's inaccurate. Sexual Predator looks great in a headline right next to Mark Foley, I think. :)

[HardRocker05]

69. man sleeps w/ girl = pedophile; man sleeps with boy = homosexual. that is

the common construction. when the situation is man-girl, no one refers to the perpetrator as a "heterosexual pedophile," but if it's man-boy, the word "homosexual" is all over every report. That does seem to be some kind of bias.

[I Have A Dream]

71. I think that the real issue is that he is the chairman of the...

Missing and Exploited Children's Caucus. It's my understanding that he had introduced legislation in July to protect children from exploitation by adults over the Internet. He also sponsored other legislation designed to protect minors from abuse and neglect. This is the real issue. Even Republicans can see the irony of this situation.

Because of this chairmanship, this would be a situation where he'd be forced to resign regardless of the sex of the victim.

[muesa]

72. Equating Pedophilia and Homsexuality

is the foundation of Fundamentalist Theology in America. It is more central to Fundamentalist Theology (and its consequent political action) then the other bedrock - "Life Begins at foreplay before conception and ends at birth."

The heck with the Beatitudes, the Golden Rule, and the Ten Commandments. It is all

-Pedophilia Equals Homosexuality // Homosexuality Equals Pedophiia

-Life Begins at foreplay before conception and ends at birth

[newsguyatl]

73. your intent is good

but i'd argue, he is IN FACT gay, and he's NOT a pedophile.

a pedophile is one who preys on pre-pubescent children. a 16/17 year old teen is NOT a child.

so, really, he's more just a dirty old gay man.

[AngryAmish]

119. "Dirty Old man"

That is about the best moniker for him.

[Doctor_J]

78. He is gay

That's why he prefers sex with males. He''s also a predator. Those are separate things, and the only people who "confuse" them or "conflate" them post at FreakRepublic, not DU.

[WinkyDink]

84. He's not gay? Are those priests not gay, either? One must be SOMETHING

when one is a pedophile, so soliciting boys strikes me as being a gay pedophile.

Doing the same to girls would = heterosexual pedophile.

[Skittles]

86. I honestly think there is a difference

I think there are heterosexuals, there are homosexuals, and then there are pedophiles/sexual predators. And pedophiles often go for both sexes. I just don't see homosexuality as a disorder but I do see people like Foley as being seriously disturbed.

[Stockholm]

87. Good post Msunderstood

Kicking

[Arugula Latte]

93. Foley's homosexuality is only relevant in the context of hypocrisy.

The Rethugs spout anti-gay hate speech all the time, and their party is full of self-hating closet cases.

[JerseygirlCT]

97. Doing that only serves the desires of those who would see

homosexuals castigated and hidden away in a dark closet.

Much like the Catholic church is attempting to do with pederast and pedophile priests.

His sexual orientation is not the issue here -- his sexual predation is.

[treestar]

109. I think you are preaching to the converted

we know that, but it is that the page was 16 and Foley is 52.

So it's sick no matter what sex or sexuality.

But the repukes, on their terms, should be called out on it, because THEY are the ones reproaching homosexuality as evil. So they can be judged negatively for being one, because they are being judged on their own terms, the ones by which they judge others.

[sampsonblk]

116. He's a gay pedophile

Why is this complicated?

[AngryAmish]

120. Because the term of art you are using is wrong

Pedophile is a clinical term that unfortunately has leaked into common usage in an incorrect way. You are using it in an incorrect way.

Ephebophilia is the correct term. Ephebophilics (sp) tend to have a one-sex preference while the rate of bisexual attraction occurs at a much higher rate in true pedophiles. The large majority of RC priest offenders were ephebophiliacs with a gay orientation.

[sampsonblk]

121. I'll Buy That-nt

nt