Saw Daily KOS (Markos) today & he said about the torture bill...

[roseBudd]

That he wasn't overly upset because he expected no less and that we have to take the bench and once we take the bench we can get America back.

My take is that politics is a chess game. You sometimes give up a knight to take a queen.

[snowbear]

1. That's what I heard on the radio yesterday too....

That had Democrats fought and failed on the Bill.. it would have given r-THUGS the ammo they REALLLLLLLLLLLLLY wanted as they go home to campaign.

But that Democrats are ready to pounce on the Bill the second they have a majority.

Hope they're right!

[Totally Committed]

2. And, in giving up this "knight" in order to gain the "queen"...

we say it's okay that people are tortured in our name? We are playing chess with real chess pieces. These are real human beings, not chess pieces. I just can't be okay with that.

TC

[hlthe2b]

4. I'm with you... innocent people are suffering in our name...dying...

in our name. This is NO game.

Nonetheless, we have no choice but to deal with it and work to get it reversed. That MEANS electing DEMS--even if you have to hold your nose to vote in someone who voted FOR the torture bill. I am convinced that in most cases they did so to avoid being destroyed by the RW in their campaigns. I don't like it, but I have to be realistic about it. Vote 'em in, then, if necessary, vote em out in the future for someone more progressive. Right now, the aternative is REGRESSIVE.

[roseBudd]

10. That is exactly what Markos said, that we have to build

[bread_and_roses]

11. Oh, so they are ALL up for re-election?

I was sure that I'd read right here that a goodly number are not?

Not, by my lights, that that would be an excuse for their despicable vote.

[roseBudd]

6. I am not OK with it but once we have the bench we can change the laws back

If we don't get the bench because Rove is sabotaging us then we protect no one.

Personally I always say I'd vote for a bologna sandwich as long as it has a D after their name.

Hackett and Vic Wulsin were also there and Markos said Hackett made it possible for Vic and if Vic loses she still makes it possible for the next D to do even better

[katinmn]

15. Agree. Using torture and freedom as a pawn is jaded thinking.

People are disconnected from reality, here and elsewhere.

It is not a game.

[Vinnie From Indy]

3. Cold comfort

I can only say that history and reality demonstrates clearly that toothpaste is much harder to get back in the tube once it is out. Call it slippery slope or what you will, but the authoritarian genie is one that will resist going back into the bottle.

[IndianaGreen]

5. Election will be stolen again, and we have lost the country for good!

The American republic is history, replaced by an evil tyranny.

Time to start thinking about leaving this country before we face our own final solution.

[Donna Zen]

12. I agree and yet I will continue to fight

Marcos is correct in this: the bill would have passed no matter how any Democrat voted. And yet, I still can't wrap my head around the concept that doing such a horrible thing as voting for this can ever be alright. It is always wrong to sell out freedom.

Then the other part of my brain tries to convince me that things will get worse, much worse, if we don't try to stop them now by taking back at least one house. Yes, even faced with a rigged voting system.

One of the Democratic assholes is my representative. I really don't know what to do.

They will never get back our rights. We cannot fool ourselves into believing that any of these critters will spend a penny of political will trying to retrieve what has been lost.

[MuseRider]

7. Unbelievable.

How can people think like this? That is some chess game you have going there and the stakes are way too high for most people.

[sendero]

16. I can see both sides...

.... the fact is, this bill changes NOTHING that is happening, it only attempts to lend legal legitimacy to it.

Secondly, there are serious questions about whether many provisions of this bill will pass a constitutional challenge.

Third, the bill has no standing whatsoever in international law, which is where any future war crimes cases will be tried, not in this country.

It made me sick to see so many Dems vote for this, but as a practical matter any actual results are pretty murky. I think that over the long term we have to try to get rid of the most egregious appeasers, but it won't be easy and in the tight situation we have now it's not really possible.

I think that the Bush admin knows the score - that any real practical effect of this legislation is limited. It was rammed through at this particular time to try to make another wedge issue, and frankly, that didn't work all that well.

[Eric J in MN]

8. Is "take the bench" a sports phrase?

If so, which sport?

UPDATE: Maybe it's a piano reference:
http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/TAKE-THE-BENCH-lyrics-Sloan/BAABE9E8AA18DDD548256CC6001244A3

[roseBudd]

9. I am just relaying what Markos said. If dems don't take either the house

or senate then there is nothing they will be able to do about anything. This torture vote right before the election is a trap.

Would we be better off with 20 democratic senators, 10, 5, none?

This is all about the 30 second attack ads and they do have the money bankrolled to satuarte the airwaves.

[leesa]

13. I'm not all that sure the Dems aren't pleased with the trend.

Are we sure they want to reverse this fascism? After all, they are all wealthy and stand to become wealthier in the current situation.

[AlGore-08.com]

14. I hate to drag a Hitler analogy into all this, but...

Hitler's rise to power was aided by short sighted people, on the left and right, who believed they could control Hitler, or that the Nazis would self-destruct before they had any real power.

Eventually they were right - - Hitler was controlled, the Nazis did self-destruct. But 12 million people died before that happened.

There are certain people and events that you cannot treat in an average way. Voting to make torture okay, and providing legal cover for the suspension of habeas corpus for American citizens, is something that should not be treated in an average way.