Do Principles matter in Politics any more ?

[Sam Odom]

I've seen a lot of "hold your nose but vote for _________" (add any Dem regardless of stance on issues) on DU lately.

IMHO-- too many people see politics like a sporting event therefore winning is all that matters as long as it's the 'home' team.

[Skinner]

1. Politics has always been, and will always be...

...a mixture of principles and pragmatism. Successful politicians are those who are able to strike a balance between the two.

Unsuccessful politicians are the ones who are unable to strike that balance. Those who favor principles or pragmatism too much are (IMHO) destined to fail.

[Sam Odom]

3. True but

That logic gives Joe Lieberman a 'pass' and puts him in the same boat as Harold Ford Jr.

[Stinky The Clown]

7. No it does not

Ford is still a Democrat. Lieberman is not.

[Sam Odom]

9. Reread

Skinner's post.

If (I said IF) Lieberman wins in Nov then he did exactly what Skinner said a successful politician must do. Same can be said for Ford.

[Stinky The Clown]

13. No

If he wins he's still not a Democrat.

[Sam Odom]

14. I dont think you know it

but you are making my case for me.

[Stinky The Clown]

5. I agree, Skinner ..... many of the opinions expressed here the last ......

...... few days are really a search for that balance.

[Warpy]

15. That's usually true, but the pubbies have been standing on

principle without pragmatism for almost three decades and they're still going strong. They're the wrong principles, but they're standing on them and denying any of the unintended consequences the rest of us are seeing.

The Democrats, by their disunity on important issues, are giving the impression of standing for pragmatism without principle, something anathema to religious people who believe in moral absolutes.

It is a shame that things are so wildly out of balance, and it's becoming a threat to the survival of this country. Unless the Democrats figure out a way to retake a balance of principle and pragmatism, the pubbies will continue to win on principles.

Yes, on the wrong principles.

[Skinner]

22. My impression is that the GOP is not as principled as you make them sound.

My impression is that for many of their members, much of what passes for "principle" in their party is actually the worst kind of cynicism. They do not actually care about any of it, and are simply pandering to the religious right so they can keep getting re-elected and enact their *real* agenda, which is lining the pockets of the country's wealthy corporate elite.

I would agree on your reading of the Democrats. I believe our excessive pragmatism as of late makes us appear unprincipled.

[Warpy]

31. Of course it's a cynical facade to impress the stupid

which is not the point. The point is that they have held principles for a very long time and have never abandoned them and have maintained party unity when they've pushed them.

When those principles, like their supply side economics, privatization, and rejection of the social contract all blow up in their faces, they refuse to acknowledge the fact and continue to vote on those failed principles. When their social policies like rejection of stem cell research and the Schiavo fiasco turn out to be unpopular, they just carry on with them.

And that is what has us so out of balance.

[bowens43]

2. So in your opinion

it's better to not vote for these Democrats and hand the house and senate over to bush and the republicans for another two years? That is just bizarre. It borders on insanity. The same attitude got us into the mess in the first place when 90,000 greens voted for nader in Florida.

Yes in this case winning is all that matters. If we don't win bush has free reign for another two years. What are you going to say to the families of the thousands of people who may die or disappear if bush is left unchecked. If you really had principles you would hold your nose and vote for these guys for the greater good of our country and the world.

Those who are not going to work to ensure a Democratic majority have no principles and IMO of nothing of value to contribute.

[Sam Odom]

6. Unfortunately

I cannot see a difference in many Dems and the Repubs as for as their actions. Sure, the rhetoric is different but that's about it.

[The Magistrate]

8. So What Is Your Solution, Mr. Odom?

"Enquiring minds want to know."

[Sam Odom]

12. Honestly ?

I'm being as serious as I can be: I CANNOT TELL YOU BECAUSE I COULD BE ARRESTED.

[Skinner]

16. It looks like you've chosen pragmatism over principle for yourself.

That's politics.

[Sam Odom]

18. What is it they say Jefferson said

That every so often a little insurrection is healthy

[The Magistrate]

20. Mr. Jefferson Said A Lot Of Things, Sir

Revolution is a damned serious business, and the situation of our society today is as far removed from a revolutionary one as a buying a lottery ticket every week is from a retirement savings plan....

[Sam Odom]

23. Oh, I agree

A revolution would interrupt the football season and that is totally unacceptable to most.

[The Magistrate]

24. Have You Studied The Art Much, Sir?

There is more to it than arch disparragement of the mass of the populace....

[The Magistrate]

19. There Would Hardly Be Any Point In Asking You To Lie To Me, Sir

And the reply you have made certainly suggests your solution is armed revolution. Successful revolutionists, on the record of history, are among the most pragmatic and least principled humans to have ever drawn breath....

"Revolution is not a tea party."

[Sam Odom]

21. Sir

:)

Many have fought and died just for/on principles yet the pragmatics have lived but capitulated.

[The Magistrate]

25. Very Few People, Sir, Have Ever Fought Or Died Just For Principles

People tell themselves all sorts of bosh while they are acting out of emotional heat or poorly calculated self-interest....

[Sam Odom]

27. Just because you say so

does not make it so. I disagree w/you.

[The Magistrate]

29. You Are Certainly Free To Disagree With Me, Sir

But there is remarkably little substance to your disagreement on this matter.

"People act from motives of self-interest and justify their acts by motives of morality."

[Sam Odom]

30. What is the evidence of substance in regards to one's Principle ?

[Skinner]

11. I would argue that you aren't looking particularly hard.

If you cherry-pick the votes where (some) Dems vote with Republicans, then you will not see any difference. But if you look at the bigger picture, I think you might find that there is a difference.

And if you take each party as a group, the differences are even more clear. Just compare the vote tallies on the torture bill and the difference should be glaringly obvious.

One party supported the bill by near-unanimity. The other party opposed the bill by an overwhelming margin. Sure, our elected officials ain't perfect. But the difference between the two parties is staring you in the face, if only you choose to see it.

[The Magistrate]

17. And It Is Worth Noting As Well, Sir

That in the Senate, owing to the near-unanimity of the Republicans, broken by onely on "Nay" and one abstention, the twelve Democratic votes were utterly meaningless: even had they been cast the other way, the measure would still have carried. That is quite sufficient to render pointless and excessive the outcry against these Senators.

The fccat of the matter is, a Party holding a minority only is powerless against a cohesive majority, particularly when that majority is also in possession of the Executive. Attacking Democrats for what the Executive and its majority in the Legislature does, calling then everything from enablers to traitors, is mis-guided and counter-productive. At times, it proceeds in fact from a desire to destroy the Democratic Party in service of some radical splinterist ideologic commitment.

[applegrove]

4. The political campaign is now 4 years long. The governance? Almost

non-existent.

[leftyladyfrommo]

10. I;m not sure principals are important in anything any more.

One thing is for certain and that is if you have principals you sure won't go anywhere in the corporate world.

[acmejack]

26. Truer words were never spoken

(to my ever lasting chagrin) But quality educations rarely come cheaply.

[Auntie Bush]

28. ((((((((((((( NO!!!!!!!!!!! )))))))))))

My/our indignation is small potatoes compared to losing the possibilities of winning congress. Having a Democrat, no matter what you think of him or his votes is better than having a Republican in office.!!! After the election...we can deal with it. Keep your mind, body and spirits on our objective. Our objective is to rout the congress of all right winged Republicans and we can ONLY do that if we stick together and concentrate on our mutual goals. Get those bastards out of office.

Let's make this incident into our war cry and UNITE and MOTIVATE us all into working as hard as we can in our common dreams. Remember...not voting (I've heard people in safe Dem districts not voting as a protest.)
is really a vote for them as it nutralizes other Dem's votes. That's stupid!, as the overall number of votes a candidate gets counts toward a mandate or the total popular vote. We want a mandate...not a squeaker. We need every single vote we can get! I personally believe it's unpatriotic NOT to vote! We should care more about the fture of our country than our own personal opinions/beliefs. Every single Democrat is OUTRAGED and believe it or not, so are some Republicans. If they all or even many of them dOn't vote because of "our Principles"...congress would be FULL of fundamental neo-conservative members. What the HELL would happen to our country under their filibuster proof reign? THINK ABOUT THAT when you ask if our principles matter. Yes, they matter...in fact so much, I'm more determined than ever to get every one I know to vote. Our country depends on us. Too HELL with my principles...for now or till we control both houses of congress. Then we can get to work. We have a lot of filthy dirt to dig up. Get a shovel and get to work!
Stop sending us off on a side track. Keep your mind and all your energy on our goal.

Posts like this make me so mad and it's depremental to our cause. Sorry to go on and on :rant: but everyone needs to think this way if we are gonna win.

[wyldwolf]

32. have they ever?

[treestar]

33. I think so, but a vote in Congress apparently may be part of some

sort of deal or have some pragmatism to it - we can say a Republican against torture is better than a Democrat who is for torture, and if you had that choice to make, you could vote for the Republican, though there are many issues and you have to take that into account too, along with your opinion of the candidate's potential effectiveness as as leader.

Whatever reason these dems had for voting for the bill would be interesting to know - do they really support it, or think something worse could pass and so support it, or think the attacks on them for voting against it will affect the sheeple in their district to such a point that they might elect a rethug who really believes in torture? Do they think it so unconstitutional it might be good to have it pass and be declared thus instead of continually coming up in bills that the president or other congressmen are proposing? Or even believe an interpretation of the bill to the effect that it does not allow torture?

So it might not be a black and white situation.