I Just Got This Email From My Right Wing Brother -In law

[GOPS Worst Fear]

My Brother -In-law just sent me this email to which I now send to you. We have agreed in the past not to send each other political stuff because we argue so passionately when we do. He was bold enough to send it..So I was bold enough to respond to it.
What he sent me:

Read and Think….??
How Long Do We Have?

About the time our original thirteen states adopted their
new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish
history professor at the University of Edinburgh , had this to say about the fall of the
Athenian Republic some
2,000 years earlier:

“A democracy is always temporary in nature:
It simply cannot exist as a
permanent form of government. A
Democracy will continue to exist up
until the time that voters discover they can
vote themselves gererous
gifts from the public treasury. From that
moment on, the majority always
vote for the candidates who promise the
most benefits from the public
Treasury, with the result that every
Democracy will finally collapse due
to loose fiscal policy, which is always
followed by a dictatorship.”

“The average age of the world’s greatest
civilzations from the beginning
of history, has been about 200 years. During
those 200 years, those
nations always progressed through the
following sequence:



1. From bondage to spiritual faith:
2. From spiritual faith to great courage:
3. From courage to liberty:
4. From liberty to abundance:
5. From abundance to complacency:
6. From complacency to apathy:
7. From apathy to dependence:
8. From dependence back into bondage:

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline
University School of Law, St. Paul,
Minnesota, points out some interesting facts
(for example) concerning the 2000 Presidential election:

Population of counties won by:
Gore 127 million
Bush 143 million

Square miles of land won by:
Gore 580,000
Bush 2,427,000

States won by:
Gore 19
Bush 29

Murder rate per 100,000 residents
in counties won by:
Gore 13.2
Bush 2.1


Professor Olson adds: “In aggregate, the
map of the territory Bush won was
mostly the land owned by the taxpaying
citizens of this great country (Republicans).
Gore’s territory mostly encompassed those
citizens living in
government-owned tenements and living off
various forms of government welfare (Democrats).”



Olson believes the United States is now
somewhere between the
“complacency and apathy” phase of Professor
Tyler’s definition of democracy,
with some 40 percent of the nation’s
population already having reached the
“governmental dependency” phase.


If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship
To the 20 million criminal
invaders called illegals and they vote, then
"Goodbye to the USA" in fewer than 5 years.


Pass this along to help everyone realize just
how much is at stake,
Knowing that apathy is the greatest danger
To our freedom!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My Response:

I wasn't going to comment about this but since you sent it..

You want to know when this Democracy went by the waste side? It was yesterday when the insane Republican Majority Congress decided to suspend Habeas Corpus in the Terrorism bill. Now we have a full blown dictator alright. Bush is the dictator who can proclaim anyone he wants now an enemy combatant. He can now hold anyone including U.S. citizens without a trial or representation. Stop cringing because we on the left compare Bush to Hitler because he has now caught up with Hitler in power. The way Bush has gotten this power is the exactly the same as the way Hitler got his. He has also made legal what was illegal by possibly covering up, God knows, how many crimes of his own by passing this bill which has a rule in it that let's him off the hook of any previous crimes.

Yes indeed. Our Democracy has been hijacked alright. But not by the "socialist" liberals you continue to dish. It is the radical neocons who have ruined this country in just 6 long years.

I want to personally Thank every moronic person who ever voted for this administration. Because of your support, this administration has desecrated the U.S. Constitution and our way of life.

When the day comes they come for you, think back to this email you sent and remember how foolish the contents were. How arrogant you were to think, that it could never have happened by anyone on the right.

[liberaliraqvet26]

1. I saw that one a while ago...

I monitor emails at a brokerage firm and see all this stuff. It's all pretty sick.

[CBGLuthier]

2. Here are some facts you can also throw his way

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp

Though I doubt it will do any good.

[MrsT]

7. They really debunk that murder rate lie.

snopes rules.

[GOPS Worst Fear]

12. Thanks so much for the info..

I just sent it on to him.

[DrRang]

17. Blue states send tax money to red states, in effect.

Look it up. All those lazy, immoral, welfare-sucking blue states actually send more in tax money to the feds than they receive back in various grants,etc. Opposite is true for hard-working, church-going red states, who suck much more cash from the federal teat than they return in taxes. Murder rates are traditionally higher across the southernmost tier of states--Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California--7 red and 1 blue if you go by the 2004 presidential vote.

[rkc3]

24. Last time I read the stats - MS received $1.87 for every $1 paid in taxes.

[Jai4WKC08]

27. One thing the snopes article doesn't address

I know I've seen statistics that show that blue/Gore states, especially in the NE region, contribute far more in the way of federal tax money compared to what they receive from the federal govt. It's the red states that, on average, get the most in what RWers would consider "hand-outs."

Perhaps someone else has those stats bookmarked?

[dad]

3. “A democracy is always temporary in nature"

Indeed

[C_U_L8R]

4. Repukes still on the defensive

apparently the feel pretty insecure that
their prezteldent has any legitimacy at all.

That note.. as deceptive as it is... is very revealing.

Poor little freeps... emphasis on the little

[tanyev]

5. Any reply from him yet?

[GOPS Worst Fear]

11. He's probably sleeping right now...

He works evening shift. I will let ya know..

[demnan]

6. Ask this ass one thing for me

Where does he get off saying that Democrats don't pay taxes on the property they own? I bet I pay twice as much taxes on my condo in Northern Virginia than he pays for his house in ButtFuck, Whereever.

[GOPS Worst Fear]

14. I agree and will thrown that at him..

I too pay my fair share of taxes. Furthermore, thee isn't too many things in the government that all of us hasn't taken advantage of is the past. Things like pell grants and veteran's loans. I know there is a list out there someplace. But he is way out of line suggesting he nor any right winger never takes advantage of social programs.

[mntleo2]

23. Dupe ~ Sorry

[mntleo2]

26. Even The Poor Pay MORE Taxes Than Rich

According to the Tax Fairness Coalition who teach about where taxes go and who pays them: http://wataxfairness.org. Keep in mind we have two of the richest men in the world in our state. While Bill Gates gives a great deal of his money to charity, his paltry 2% or whatever he pays is but a drop in the bucket and he lives in luxury, while 19% takes a huge chunk out of the poor's budget and has horrible affects on their whole family.

Man I am SO glad I do not have a BIL like yours, Hon. Since he violated your agreement and sent you this crap, I hope you barraged him with the information you got and handed his ass back to him on a silver platter! You can tell him that from me and it appears a whole lot of other posters here ~ he is an idiot and we are laughing our asses off at what a fool he is to fall for that propaganda.

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[meegbear]

8. Been around since late 2000 ...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp

[Demit]

9. Haha, dad beat me to it. That's an old email from 2000 and many "facts"

therein are wrong anyway. See http://conwebwatch.tripod.com/stories/2004/nmlegend.html

You should ALWAYS check out snopes before wasting your time responding to the garbage your BIL sends. You could've shot him down just by pointing out how he easily he swallows and is bamboozled by malarky.

[leesa]

10. Practically everything he quoted to you was untrue. Bush supporters

are NOT the taxpayers. They are corporate owners and as such, they pay virtually NO taxes and they are on the largest amount of welfare.

"voters discover they can
vote themselves gererous
gifts from the public treasury. From that
moment on, the majority always
vote for the candidates who promise the
most benefits from the public
Treasury, with the result that every
Democracy will finally collapse due
to loose fiscal policy, which is always
followed by a dictatorship.”

This paragraph describes Republicans to a tee. Has he forgoten the tax cuts for the rich already?

[holboz]

16. LOL - that's EXACTLY what I thought when I read that paragraph

My first thought was, "Wow, this is going to be a conversion story. A Freeper wakes up and sees the light!" But no. I should have known better. He quickly fell into fasle stastics. Well, they never seem to disappoint in that regard.

On an aside, I know Repukes like to declare themselves to be the "Party of Lincoln" but truth is the Republican party in its infancy was backed by the railroad tycoons who wanted to build the transcontinental railroad. They wanted to plunder the US treasury for their private venture and they truly did on a grand scale. Even Lincoln was a railroad lobbyist during his lawyer days. That's one of the main reasons why he was their nominee for President.


d

[Ravy]

22. And cushy deals to Halliburton and other croniers to boot!

Right on!

[gratuitous]

13. So for "professor" Olson . . .

One guy voting for Bush from his 100 acre farm counts for more votes than a 100 votes from a high-rise apartment complex.

Fookin' brlliant. Has anyone mentioned that land doesn't vote?

[GOPS Worst Fear]

15. Touche!!!

N/T

[Child_Of_Isis]

18. All you need to do is ask him....

will you be comfortable when a dem president and a dem congress has the same powers that this admin has?

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

19. Crap, I'm not republican! Why the heck am I paying taxes?!?

That is the stupidest piece of trash I have read in a long time. And that's saying a lot. Good response.

[Autonomy]

20. The philosophy is egregious

even though the phases of societies part has some merit, albeit misapplied. Those phases are a typical wave, the vacillations of any complex phenomenon. When appraising a socially complex phenomenon for the purpose of a guide for the future, it is inevitable that one invokes unintended conequences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequence
Possible causes of unintended consequences include the world's inherent complexity (parts of a system responding to changes in the environment), perverse incentives, human stupidity, self-deception or other cognitive or emotional biases.

Robert K. Merton listed five causes of unanticipated consequences:

Ignorance (It is impossible to anticipate everything)
Error (Incomplete analysis of the problem, or following habits that worked in the past but may not apply to the current situation)
Immediate interest which may override long-term interests
Basic values may require or prohibit certain actions, even if the long-term result might be unfavorable (these long-term consequences may eventually cause changes in basic values)
Self-defeating prophecy (Fear of some consequence drives people to find solutions before the problem occurs, thus the non-occurrence of the problem is unanticipated)
Merton also stated that "no blanket statement categorically affirming or denying the practical feasibility of all social planning is warranted."

IOW, to make a long story short, justifying bizarre, self-defeating and purposely destructive acts because societies tend to eventually decay is a pathological mindset. Societies that do not have leaders who are positive and proactive tend to fall because of that fact.

It's no accident that Bush supporters began floating this 'doctrine of inevitable destruction' shortly after Bush's election. They knew subconciously that he would destroy us. They committed every cause of the LoUC listed above, most notably the 'self-defeating prophecy'.

[Bill McBlueState]

21. The argument from poor geography skills

About that "land" thing. A significant fraction of the land that he's putting in the Bush column is federal property. Most of Nevada, for example, is owned by the feds. So I guess the Republicans are the party of big government land grabs.

[suegeo]

25. I feel sorry for your sister.

You also, have my sympathy.

[GOPS Worst Fear]

30. It's my wife's brother

..but yes I feel for her sometimes..

[4bucksagallon]

28. Here from snopes.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp
Sorry, I see it is a repeat of something already posted.

[PurityOfEssence]

29. While you're at it, refute Olson

Never let crappy statistics and misleading conclusions go unchallenged. He's probably snickering that you simply couldn't refute his golden "truths".

Feel free to use this post as you will; it's public domain.

--The population of the counties issue smells fishy. Ask for a breakdown. If Bush won counties that have an aggregate of 16 million more people than the Gore counties, then how did Gore win the popular vote by 552,000 votes? (That's a lot, by the way; it's more than the population of a few states.) If Bush won these "big" counties, then obviously he didn't excite enough of the residents to even show up to vote. This should shoot down the depiction of Democrats as lazy.

--Square miles won: yes, Bush appealed to livestock and dirt; Gore appealed to human beings. Population density is a good indicator of non-conservatism because it also tends to bring cosmopolitanism. Those who live in the hinterland surrounded by other white-folk tend to be more suspicious of "others" because they don't know them. If one lives in a city, one meets many from other cultural and racial groups.

--States won: California has an economy that's greater than the bottom 23 states. If we were a country, our economy would be the fifth largest in the world. Since conservatives worship money, they should be made to explain why the successful tend to hate them, while losers suck up to them no end. The loser states tend to have little or no income tax and they get more aid from the federal government. We here in blue California are carrying freeloaders like Tennessee, even though that state hates the government that gives them disproportionate financial support. This is a classic distortion.

--Murder rate: Cities have greater murder rates. It's a function of the friction of many living together in close quarters. When you're living alone on the open prairie, there just isn't anyone around to kill.

--Olson's conclusions: “In aggregate, the
map of the territory Bush won was
mostly the land owned by the taxpaying
citizens of this great country (Republicans).
Gore’s territory mostly encompassed those
citizens living in
government-owned tenements and living off
various forms of government welfare (Democrats).”
this is just deeply ugly and unethical slurring.

To characterize all the members of Bush Country as decent, law-abiding morally pure paragons is a load of abusive crap. There are subsidized farmers out there. There are welfare cheats in rural areas too.

To Characterize members of Gore Country as greedy, lazy welfare cheats living in government housing is outrageous. Is Manhattan filled with nothing but bums? How about Marin County? How about Los Angeles County or San Francisco? This is deeply ugly bullshit and shows the deep moral ugliness of Olson. Anyone who trumpets these skewed claims is a deeply dishonest thug. This is bullying and deliberate deception unless the person is too stupid to see the manipulation. The blue areas have higher personal income; this doesn't come from bums in gummint housing. It shows that competent (in capitalist terms) people tend to support the concept of an interdependent society, whereas many others want to welch on their obligations to their fellow man and rage that their dream of selfishness isn't being properly supported.

How about some statistics that show the horrors of Bushworld? Far more mothers kill their children in Bush country than in Gore country. I believe hate crimes do much better in the Redlands too, but I don't have the stats to back this up.

How about the virtue issue? The more education one has, the more one tends to be Democratic. The inherent intellectual hatred of this country may lampoon this, but it shows that smart people know one of the essential truths of life: smart people know how stupid they are, hence they prefer a non-conservative approach that accepts difference and the need to experiment for change; stupid people have all the answers and want to destroy anyone who disagrees. Liberalism is tolerance, coexistence and progress; conservatism is selfishness, greed, close-mindedness, arrogant superiority and intolerance of anyone else to the point of not even wanting them to be allowed to exist.

[radfringe]

31. send him this, with my regards...