worldcantwait.org is discouraging Democrats from voting!

[grasswire]

worldcantwait is planning a big walkout and general strike nationwide on October 5. Great, good!

worldcantwait is also discouraging Democrats from voting.

Look at the section in the lower right corner of this page:

http://www.worldcantwait.net/

Haven't we had enough damage from people who urged progressives and liberals to stay at home or protest-vote in previous elections??!!

We saw the results of those flawed thoughts today in Congress!

GOTV for Democrats! Damn!

[file83]

1. Just WTF do they propose? Letting the Repugs win? Jeebus....

...I knew that organization was a "plant". "Don't vote for Dems", that's a great fucking idea. :wtf: Next thing we'll find out is that it's sponsored by the GOP...nothing would surprise me anymore.

[Eric J in MN]

12. Don't give money to Democrats. Give it to us!!!

http://www.worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2773&Itemid=201

"PUT YOUR MONEY, TIME, AND RESOURCES INTO SOMETHING THAT WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE! GIVE GENEROUSLY AND FREQUENTLY TO WORLD CAN'T WAIT/DRIVE OUT THE BUSH REGIME! HELP GET THE WORD OUT EVERYWHERE!"

[grasswire]

13. grrrrrrrr.... (eom)

[question everything]

149. And how are we supposed to drive out the Bush regime

if not by voting? Or do they propose a military coup? a divine intervention?

[Der Blaue Engel]

2. That's just great

"Top 10 reasons NOT to put your money and resources into the Democrats."

Now I have to rethink marching on Thursday. Why do they do this shit?

[greyl]

3. Why? Money.

It's a total scam site.

[file83]

4. Yup - they want the "anarchist" crowd to get suckered into giving them $$$

for candidates and bullshit ads that will change NOTHING at the end of the day, except of course push the election to the Republicans favor.

It's total bullshit. Just vote DEMOCRAT straight across the ticket this november...

[greyl]

6. Their statement about raising $500,000:

FUNDS: A key part of the plan for Friday September 8 to Thursday September 21 is raising $500,000. A movement of fund-raising must take off starting tonight. Make a commitment now. Consider:

Are you someone who could hold a party and raise tens of thousands from friends?

Can you invite friends over to show films of the new Bush Crimes Commission testimony, and then discuss how they can be involved in this effort?

Do you live in a city where community car washes raise thousands of dollars in a weekend? How about a stoop or garage sale?

Would students on your campus consume a lot at a bake sale? Or a used book sale? Is your neighborhood ripe for canvassing door to door? How about your subway or commuter station?

Fund-raising can take place over the internet, and, very importantly, by calling people and personally talking with the tens of thousands of people who have already signed our Call. Your skills are needed. Contact [e-mail]

Get out leaflets, canvas your neighborhood or leaflet your church, campus, social and athletic clubs. Put posters on walls and in shop windows, leave the postcards in cafés and bookstores. World Can’t Wait has to be seen rising from the pages of the most prominent publications and from our most prominent voices at the same time as it’s visible everywhere – coming from the ground up. Get the word out at plays, concerts and movies – anywhere thinking people will be.

Find fund-raising resources at worldcantwait.org.
http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=22&Itemid=232

Couple that with their "10 Reasons NOT to Put Your Hopes and Money into the Democrats"...
If they aren't a site banned from DU yet, they should be.

[grasswire]

8. thank you

Did you see the list of good people who have lent their names to this effort? I can't believe they all know this vote quashing is part of the pitch.

DAMN!

[rockymountaindem]

54. I've never thought about marching with them at all

Ever since I saw how all their rallies get whatever message they're supposed to be about mixed up with 10 other things, half of which I don't support, that was it for me. Their anti-Israel stance is enough for me all by itself to make me say away from them. Now they're anti-Democratic? Hey man, I ain't no anarchist...

[WildEyedLiberal]

5. The site also trashes Ned Lamont

FUCK these Green wannabes. If people can't tell by now that these assholes are part of the problem, then we really are doomed.

[grasswire]

7. please help keep this kicked overnight

I hope all DU-ers will see this. There's a phone number at the bottom of the page, and I intend to call it Friday to tell them to STFU or lose support for their general strike.

[greyl]

15. whois info:

here

[grasswire]

17. c. clark kissinger's bio

Kissinger is a member of the Revolutionary Communist Party, a Maoist vanguard party, and a contributing writer for its official organ, the Revolutionary Worker. Kissinger began his public activism in the early 1960s when he was the national secretary of Students for a Democratic Society (SDS), the leading radical organization of its day. In 1969, SDS became the Weather Underground, America's first terrorist cult.

Kissinger also worked closely with Fred Hampton and the Black Panther Party, and supported Mao Tse-tung's Communist regime in China which, according to The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression, was responsible for the deaths of 65 million of its own citizens. Kissinger continues to enjoy strong support from the Maoist Internationalist Movement (MIM), which, in its own words, "upholds the revolutionary communist ideology of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism," and views the Chinese Cultural Revolution as "the farthest advance of communism in human history."

MIM declares that it can only achieve its ends "by building public opinion to seize power through armed struggle." Chief among its objectives is to foment "revolution North America, as the military becomes over-extended in the government's attempts to maintain world hegemony."

Kissinger was a strong supporter of Iran's Islamic revolution and traveled to Iran in 1979 when the Ayatollah Khomeni and his Islamic radicals seized power. Four years later, he was in West Germany demonstrating against US plans to station cruise and Pershing missiles in Europe to meet the Soviet threat. Those missile deployments eventually led to the fall of the Soviet empire.

In 1987 Kissinger created "Refuse and Resist!" - on whose National Council he remains a member. R&R played a supportive role in the 1992 Los Angeles race riot, which left 58 people dead and 2,300 injured and which Kissinger referred to as a "rebellion." After 9/11, R&R opposed a specific provision of the Patriot Act requiring that all male immigrants (aged sixteen or older) from twenty Arab and Muslim countries and North Korea register with the INS. R&R warned that by such "targeting of men from specific nationalities," America was on its way to becoming "a nation behind barbed wire." The registration of Middle Eastern men, R&R claimed, was "quite possibly 'pre-registration' for internment" that would one day lead hordes of unsuspecting victims "like sheep to the slaughter."

Among the numerous ongoing crusades of Kissinger and R&R is its effort to derail the new Student Exchange Visitor Information System (SEVIS), which requires educational institutions to furnish the INS with information on its international students who entered the US on academic visas. For each student in that category, schools must provide his or her name, country of origin, current address, field of study, visa status, and any known history of disciplinary problems or criminal activity. According to R&R, however, such measures are unreasonable: "SEVIS is a system of racial profiling that singles out and criminalizes international students in the US," and will only bring our country "one step closer to being a police state." Moreover, says Kissinger's group, SEVIS "will be used to intimidate, round-up, arrest, 'disappear' and deport targeted groups . . . in the so-called 'War on Terrorism.' "

Kissinger and his R&R allies have a grim view of American life and culture. "Domestically," they complain, "we see subway vigilantes made media heroes and a record of sympathy for white supremacy become the passport to high judicial office. . . . Against women there is escalating violence, with compulsory child bearing and domestic servitude elevated as ideals. . . . Xenophobic attacks are made on anything foreign, combined with calls for the compulsory use of English."

"The problem in this country," says Kissinger, can be traced to one root cause: "the oppressive system of capitalism that exploits people all over the world, that destroys our planet, that oppresses minority people, that sends people to the death chambers in droves. That is a problem that has to be done away with." Is there a solution? "Yes," says Kissinger. "Revolution is the solution. And the Revolutionary Worker has put out a call to people to join with them in formulating a new program for revolution in this country, a blueprint to go forward."

http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1386

So the guy is more interested in armed revolution than in taking control of Congress.

[bananas]

31. Why are you linking to a right-wing whacko website?

Cool, let's use David Horowitz to define us.
There's an unbiased fair-und-balanced point of view.
These are all on that webpage you linked to:

Defining the Left:

Why the Left (and Timothy Burke) Can't Handle the Truth
By David Horowitz
July 22, 2005

How Important Is the Left?
By David Horowitz and Jacob Heilbrunn
May 2005

Why Liberalism Has a Bad Name
By David Horowitz
March 7, 2005

Defining the Left
By David Horowitz
March 2, 2005

Why Zarqawi and Katrina vanden Heuvel?
By David Horowitz
February 25, 2005

In Denial: The Left Reacts to DiscoverTheNetworks
By David Horowitz
February 22, 2005

[MH1]

111. Then try HIS OWN SITE

sheesh.

http://www.dissident.info/

Note the favicon (red star next to the url in the address bar).

DISSIDENT.INFO
internet portal to C. Clark Kissinger, the Rebel Without a Pause
Clark Kissinger is available
to speak on your campus!

► National Secretary of SDS in the early sixties
► Organized the first March on Washington Against the Vietnam War (1965)
► Worked closely with the Black Panther Party in Chicago
► Toured China during the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution (1972, 1975)
► Supported Bob Avakian's work to build a real communist party in the U.S.

Sorry, I don't support the communist system of government (which is totalitarianism, in case you hadn't noticed). Not that China even follows the communist economic model anymore - now they are authoritarian capitalist. Just great. And this guy is still using a red star as his emblem?

[Ian David]

166. Communists are just Nazis with a bad business plan. n/t

[Zhade]

151. You know that's David Horowitz's site, right?

I don't know the details of WCW's organization, but I certainly wouldn't use a rightwing pro-torture fuck like Horowitz as a source to find out.

[The Magistrate]

214. The Connection To The R.C.P. Of Avakian, Sir

Is established by this Kissinger fellow on his own site, cited in No. 111 above. That group is quite familiar to anyone involved in left politics over the last couple of decades, and is pretty bad news. The judgement of anyone who affilliated with it is open to grave question, and given its conspiratorial nature, the presence of any of its known activists on any steering committee ought to give pause to anyone considering alignment with it.

[madfloridian]

9. Here are the people involved in that group.

One of them is Mark Crispin Miller.

This is just wrong. We have no other choices for now, until we get time to change.

[grasswire]

11. I doubt very much that MCM wants Democrats to skip the vote.

I believe that many of the people on that list have been duped and don't know about this tactic of driving Dems away from the polls.

Thom Friedman, for one. I'm going to get in touch with him. And MCM.

[WCGreen]

30. There was a post the other day about MCM saying don't vote

absentee...

That is just bullshit

[Stephanie]

75. He's saying don't vote absentee because it makes the total look smaller

and if it looks smaller the GOP will have more basis to explain away another stolen election. They can say, "Oh, turnout was low. that's why the vote didn't match with late polls." That's his rationale, as he explained it to me.

[WCGreen]

96. That makes absolutley no sense to me....

I vote absentee all the time...

The absentees are counted first here in Ohio...

[Stephanie]

97. well that's not done everywhere

His point is that we have to physically turn out to the polls in massive numbers. He has no doubt they will steal it again. No doubt at all.

[Freddie Stubbs]

56. Perhaps he is unaware of this group's particualr stance

[geek tragedy]

227. Perhaps. But there's no excuse for lending your name

to an organization like this without doing basic research on it.

[Maraya1969]

10. I thought they were just saying that to get people out on )ct 5 as if

we can't wait until November. Now I'm all confused. :shrug:

[greyl]

14. They're trying to steal many thousands of dollars from Dem campaigns.

They're pretty explicit about it, no?

edit: spling

[Marie26]

51. Tax-deductible, yet!

I have no idea how this organization qualifies as tax-deductible. It's a political advocacy group. They've been posting on international sites, asking liberals to donate $1000.00 to help the "American people". http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2006/09/122425.phpAnd I don't understand why they need to raise so much money - is it that expensive to organize rallies? Most people donate their time. Where does this money go to & what does it fund?

[ProudDad]

16. Gee, you can find anything you want if you look...

"Congress votes for torture"
By RJ Schinner

Updated 9/28: In a 253 to 168 vote on Wednesday, the House passed the legislation Bush and McCain agreed on last week. Thursday, 65 Senators passed the bill. This is nothing short of a vote for torture, indefinite detention, and military tribunals which deny basic legal rights. What makes this worse is that no longer will torture be carried out by secret orders in secret prisons, but openly and with Congressional approval.

253 members of the House of Representatives and 65 Senators approve

The Democratic opposition boiled down to the following from Representative Ike Skelton:

'If you want to be tough on terrorists, let’s not pass something that rushes to judgment and has legal loopholes that will reverse a conviction.'

Heaven forbid torture victims have their convictions by kangaroo courts overturned.

The Democrats even agreed not to filibuster and bring the bill to a quick vote. Any attempts to change the law to be a little less fascistic were defeated.

Bush, of course, will sign it into law, maybe even adding in a "signing statement" nullifying any details he doesn't like.

Imagine if pictures of the Nazi concentration camps were revealed to the world. Imagine if in response, Hitler demanded that the government legalize their existence and openly talked about how this was a necessary measure to protect the German people. Imagine if a few powerful members of the Nazi Party with close connections to the German military command expressed reservations about legalizing concentration camps, concerned that Germany's enemies may use the same horrors against German troops. Imagine if Hitler reached an agreement with them that allowed the concentration camps to continue, and there was no real opposition from inside the official political structures.

In 2006, this is not a stretch of the imagination. This is exactly what has happened with torture in the past week. It really is that bad. And we have the responsibility to bring it to a halt."

[grasswire]

19. see post #11

You may want to divert money from Democratic candidates to those who advocate armed rebellion and imposition of a failed ideology. I doubt that many people naturally attracted to this "Dump Bush" rally know the real scenario. I didn't until tonight, when I started following some links.

[ProudDad]

18. For the rational among you

Here's the link to the top 10 reasons:

http://www.worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2773&Itemid=201

Give it a read and tell me which of them you don't agree with.

on edit:

Of course they're trying to raise money...but...

Imagine a world where 10 million people hit the streets every week to protest this government. That's what TWCW is trying to do.

The dems COULD organize such a response if they wanted to but they're too beholden to their corporate masters to do it...

[grasswire]

20. they're not trying to raise money

They're trying to divert it.

[greyl]

23. lol, please don't fall for that.

They're going after a niche market and that list is one of their devices.
Do they say what they'll do with the money? They want us to pay them for being pissed off.
We can do that here for free, eh? :)

[mhatrw]

25. Maybe we could learn something from Mexico about how to

mount an effective opposition to illegitimate tyranny?

It's just a thought.

[greyl]

26. The subject is worldcantwait.org, not Mexico. nt

[ProudDad]

99. Our loss

Mexico's gain. They have the right idea.

Fill the streets, take over the radio stations and scare the shit out of the govt...

[Eric J in MN]

27. They say don't give to Democrats because Bob Casey, Jr. is...

...a candidate.

People who don't like Casey can donate to any of hundreds of other Democratic candidates.

[geek tragedy]

132. By their logic, we should give money to the Republicans

because of Lincoln Chafee.

[LynneSin]

37. Tell me why you want Republicans controlling congress

Here's a thought - we have 2 months until election and you think if we simply turn our backs on the democrat that somehow we'll profoundly change the world?

What crack are you smoking?

I'll vote democrat and those assholes from WCW can remove me from their mailing list. I do not support organizations that support Republicans. And any group that suggests not voting for democrats in this election is doing just that. As much as this sucks - this is a 2 party election.

[Marie26]

46. Why not have 10 reasons not to vote Republican?

Or a million reasons to impeach Bush? Why are they focusing specifically on dissing Democrats? It looks to me like a bait & switch plan - lure Dems in w/the rally against Bush, then convince them to financially support WCW or socialist/green parties instead. I can't support this, and it bothers me that this rally seems to have been organized under false pretenses. This guy seems to be an anarchist Maoist who'd rather have a grand violent revolution than an actual election.

[Maraya1969]

60. But what do they propose as an alternative? I know about the protest

and I am planning to attend but I think they are alienating some people with the "don't vote for Dems" approach because even if there are problems within the party they are a heck of a lot better than Repubs. And if they get the majority again I believe they will become stronger and not try and pander to the right so much to appease people.

[MH1]

110. Easy, almost all of them

For maybe the best example, their screed against Lamont. Their attack on Casey is simply ridiculous, and if I had time to look up the links, I would point out the outright lies.

This group appears to be saying that American democracy is toast and we can't fix it through elections.

I absolutely, wholeheartedly disagree with them to the core of my being. It seems to me this is a passel of actual "America haters" who make the left look very bad. We should not have anything to do with groups that advocate abandoning the democratic process in this country, and "Democratic Underground" should explicitly condemn them for calling not to support the Democratic Party ...especially considering the outright smears posted at that website. Heck, they make counterpuke almost look rational. (Well, maybe not that. They're both irrational, imo.)

[mhatrw]

21. I don't see where it tells people not to vote. n/t

[grasswire]

22. it doesn't say "don't vote" -- it DISCOURAGES voting for Dems

Quote from one particular section:

Q: But isn't getting the Democrats elected and getting a majority in Congress the only real way to stop Bush?

A: Stop him from doing what?

From invading Iran? The Democrats support Bush on Iran.

From outlawing abortion? The Democrats are running anti-choice candidates for the Senate.

From carrying out repression? The Democrats voted overwhelmingly to support the Patriot Act and have done nothing to stop the illegal spying on millions of people.From conducting the war in Iraq? Even Ned Lamont only promises withdrawal "a year from now" and he's already hedged on that - and the rest of the Democrats are doing far worse.

Our Call tells it like it is: "There is not going to be some savior from the Democratic Party. This whole idea of putting our hopes and energies into 'leaders' who tell us to seek common ground with fascists and religious fanatics is proving every day to be a disaster, and actually serves to demobilize people."

The situation is way too urgent to allow yourself to be lulled. The reality is this: without the whole political situation being radically altered by people in this country taking responsibility to act, the current fascistic direction will accelerate. Without decisively breaking out of the confines of official politics… without refusing to take orders from the likes of Charles Schumer and the other top Democrats… without refusing to set an entirely different and radically new dynamic from below, we are headed from this dark time to an even darker one. But if we do set that dynamic from below, then everyone in society -- including those on the top who today make horrific decisions unchallenged -- will be forced to respond to that.

Look, go ahead and vote if you think you must. But the question is where are you going to put your resources and energies? Into something that has disappointed you time and again? Something that doesn't even represent your demands and interests? Or into something that you not only agree with, but that carries the only chance now before us to carve out a different road and a different future? Think of what it will mean for the people of Lebanon, for the survivors of Katrina, for the immigrants under attack, and for the rest of the planet to know that there is a massive and determined movement of people in the United States taking to the streets in cities and towns across the country to demand this be brought to a halt. Imagine the start of a new dynamic - actions producing headlines reading: "Anti-Bush Protests Continue to Bring Cities to a Standstill across the Country." What if THIS were injected into the regular string of shocking atrocities and monstrous crimes being carried out by the Bush regime?

Face it. The political will of the people is not going to find expression through the elections. Look at the state of official politics and how unacceptable the whole process and logic is. There is no other way this fall for people to make manifestly clear that they want the war ended, that they want the right of abortion protected, that they think torture is completely immoral and unacceptable, that they regard a government that abandons and then uproots the Black population of New Orleans as unconscionable. There is no other way to affirm that evolution and global warming are truths that must be acted upon, no way to voice that living under a government that engages in detaining people without trial, spies on its citizens, summarily terminates basic constitutional protections such as due process, and silences dissent is well on its way to becoming a police state - and that all this must be stopped.

[mhatrw]

24. On any other day, I might agree with you.

Tonight, the darkest political day of my entire life, the World Can't Wait rant reads true.

[greyl]

28. Don't support Democratic candidates rings true?

I hope not.
There's lots of sales pitch and no product.

Lining the streets with Americans who've decided they don't want to be a cog in the machine anymore is a great idea, but trusting that website isn't.

[nosmokes]

29. so what isn't true in the copy you posted?

me, the democrats don't automatically get my vote anymore, they hafta earn it. and unless there's someone a helluva better than kerry in '08 i'll be voting green most likely.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vidar]

88. Well said. Bravo!

[MH1]

114. The smears on Lamont and Casey, for example.

If you REALLY think that voting for a republican in green clothing is better than voting for Kerry - or almost anyone else the Dems could put up - in '08, then either you haven't been paying attention to what Kerry, Feingold, Boxer, Kennedy etc have been doing... or you never were going to vote for any Democrat anyway, I think.

[geek tragedy]

133. Karl Rove is grateful for every person who thinks

and acts like you.

[midnight]

164. I looked at the home page, and can't figure out where it

is discouraging voting Dem.

[geek tragedy]

222. They scrubbed the site. Here's a google cache:

Bottom right corner.


See also:

http://www.worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2773&Itemid=201

[LynneSin]

39. Doing that two months before the election? They're encourage repukes

Sorry, they should have thought of this a few months ago, perhaps a year ago to start working to find better candidates. Pulling this shit 2 months before the midterms is nothing more than them sucking up to the Republican Party and enabling their win. I don't support any organization that supports republicans.

[Zhade]

152. More accurately, it discourages voting, period.

They seem to believe that elections will not solve the issues they discuss in the piece.

Looking back over the past six years, and the tepid opposition at best to some of the most egregious violations of the Constitution committed by the Republican party - I can't help but wonder if they're right.

I disagree with them that not voting is a good strategy, and they seem to acknowledge that with the "vote if you must" bit, but I wholly agree with anyone (WCW included) who understands that voting will not be the end solution to these problems.

A start? Hopefully, especially if people like Conyers wind up in positions where they can start pursuing justice. But even then the political climate in this country must be changed. A majority of Americans embrace positions they don't realize are liberal stances on issues. People are afraid, angry, and with good cause.

If we vote in the pro-torture, anti-choice, anti-privacy, anti-civil liberties Dems, we may at best win a stalemate, should those Dems for some unfathomable reason feel threatened enough by being voted IN to change the stances that (as they will see it) got them elected. or somehow grow a conscience and repudiate torture and all the ills the Republican party has wrought.

I think it is folly to discourage voting against Republicans where one can, and likewise folly to assume a Democratic majority in Congress will somehow magically solve all the problems we face - especially when some of those very Dems support (not just enabled, SUPPORT) the root of those problems.

[bluedogyellowdog]

33. "World Can't Wait" is a front group

for the Revolutionary Communist Party USA. (RCP) Bob Avakian's group. One of those miniscule loony groups that emerged in the 1970s out of the collapse of the new left, political cousins to Lyndon LaRouche, the Weather Underground, and related groups. They RCP is not well loved on the left if you ask around among people who have been involved for a long time in left-wing politics. They're well known for being disruptive and trying to provoke violent confrontations with the police. Bob Avakian is in exile in France for just that reason. They try to organize protest front groups that *appear* to be liberal, to draw in liberals and progressives and then "radicalise" them with an inflammatory protest style aimed at trying to provoke violent police confrontations. Refuse & Resist is another of their front groups. They were also notoriously homophobic until quite recently.

One of their beliefs is to try and steer progressive activists away from voting - they believe in armed revolution, not voting. I would personally stay as far away from this disruptive little political cult as possible. We have work to do in November, and that work is to take back the House and Senate - by electing as many Democrats as possible to both houses.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bluedogyellowdog]

35. Are you a Democrat?

Wikipedia is a joke. They have never been a reliable source because anyone can edit the articles. The content of articles is always changing back and forth to reflect the opinion of whoever the latest person to edit the article is.

David Horowitz is also a joke. But it's funny that defenders of the RCP cult and their disruptive tactics and front groups are pointing to Horowitz: "Look, David Horowitz hates World Can't Wait so that means World Can't Wait is a good group since Horowitz hates them!" I'd suggest you ask around among longtime activists on the LEFT - who were around in the 80s and 90s - and you'll get a better picture of the RCP.

What's your source for that "supporters" list? Wikipedia? That list looks like it was added by a rightwinger trying to defame them by falsely associating them with World Can't Wait and the RCP. Not a single one - NONE - of those people is involved in the leadership of World Can't Wait. The group is run by C. Clark Kissinger of the RCP.

If you think that our top priority must be electing Democrats in November is "right wing spin crap", you're on the wrong board.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bluedogyellowdog]

42. Learn the hard way

Go ahead and learn the hard way. Everybody has to, I guess. The RCP will ruin your life if you get involved with them even in the most peripheral way. Just be careful and watch out for "bridge burning", which is a standard cult recruitment tactic.

[wagthedogwar]

44. Is that what they did to you?

C'mon, share with the class.

[LoZoccolo]

61. The RCP are Maoists, not Trotskyites.

I'm not criticizing people for going to the protest; you should just know that at least one speaker will probably attack Democrats and try to make the argument that voting is useless.

[rinsd]

65. You have all of 166 posts and learn to do a little research

Look up the steering committee on World Can't Wait. Its on their site.

Seems to be communists to me, though I prefer the Trotsky version to the Stalinist crowd at ANSWER.

[bluedogyellowdog]

41. David Horowitz and the RCP are in fact kindred spirits

Horowitz was involved with the lunatic fringe of the new left in the 1970s and I'm sure rubbed shoulders with Bob Avakian and C. Clark Kissinger more than once. David Horowitz has become an ultraconservative liberal-hater where as before he was a communist, ultraleftist liberal-hater. He hasn't changed at all. He's still a True Believer and he still hates liberals. All he did was jump from one mass movement to another mass movement. Psychologically, he hasn't changed.

[LynneSin]

38. I could edit Wikipedia and put George Bush & Karl Rove on that list

WCW can kiss my ass. I do not support organizations that enable Republicans to control congress. They should have been doing this a year ago before the primaries got started. Two months before the midterm elections is simply enabling the republicans to win.

And I don't give a flying fuck if there is a third party candidate option I could choose, that's just a nice way for me to support Republicans so at least I cn claim "I didn't actually vote repuke"

[Marie26]

47. What about this?

Also from Wikipedia: "World Can't Wait was formed in 2005. Its headquarters are in New York City. Several of the founders of World Can't Wait were public supporters of the Revolutionary Communist Party, including Sunsara Taylor, a former spokesperson for the Revolutionary Communist Youth Brigade."

Seems to support what this poster is saying.

[Bridget Burke]

52. Ah, but the poster that you agree with.....

Also explained that Wikipedia was worthless.

Therefore, your cite is worthless!

[Marie26]

53. And the cite by the poster

who disagrees is worthless, too, so where does that leave us? I haven't seen anyone disputing the connection between the two organizations, which is supported by: wikipedia entry, internet origination of the WCW website, Salon entry, & personal experiences. It seems pretty clear that there is at least a tangential relationship between the RCP & WCW.

[rinsd]

71. How about their own website?

http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=0&Itemid=2

Why is anyone surprised that these anti war groups are fronts for various Marxist Leninist groups?

Didn't we go thru this already with ANSWER & the WWP?

Isn't a WWP split off running ANSWER?

[geek tragedy]

134. ANSWER and WCW are godsends for the Republican party.

What better way to discredit the anti-war movement than to point out that it's lead by authoritarian/fascist socialists?

WCW can go straight to hell. Clark Kissinger = Henry Kissinger.

[katinmn]

155. authoritarian/fascist socialists? What BS

ANSWER and WCW are the antithesis of authoritarian and fascists! They understand the concepts of class war but I can see you do not.

And a lot of people who complained about ANSWER now think much better of them following Israel's all out invasion of Lebanon and Gaza. ANSWER was right then and now to protest US supplying weapons that Israel uses against civilians.

[rinsd]

173. Uhhh ANSWER is run by the WWP

That's Wokers World Party who are bigger believersin Stalin that Lenin or Trotsky.

The WWP split off from the CPUSA because the CPUSA condemned the invasion of Hungary by the Soviet Union.

The WWP believes the Tiannemen Square massacre was a-okay.

The WWP thinks Kim Jong is doing a bang up job.

Yeah they understand class war alright, meet the new boss same as the old boss. Try reading Animal Farm sometime.

"And a lot of people who complained about ANSWER now think much better of them following Israel's all out invasion of Lebanon and Gaza. "

Ummm bullshit. People were pissed at ANSWER for stuffing their pet causes down the throats of a captive audience at what was ostensibly billed as an anti-war march.

UPJ kicked their ass to the curb because of this.

[katinmn]

223. LOL. Where are the links? You ought to know better.

Especially on DU. You make rabid statements you need to back them up.

[rinsd]

233. Search DU, this has been covered ad nauseum

Nothing rabid about my statements.

[rinsd]

234. Here's a story that known rw rag the Village Voice just did

http://www.villagevoice.com/blogs/powerplays/archives/002874.php

[geek tragedy]

217. They're Maoists and Stalinists.

If you think Maoists and Stalinists are the opposite of authoritarian . . .

[katinmn]

224. Links? Come on....

:crazy:

BTW, you can sit on your butt watching tv or go bowling for all I care but many of us will be standing up to the Republican Cult and demanding accountability from Bush.

Enjoy your Thursday.

[geek tragedy]

226. The Revolutionary Communist Party (Maoists) founded

World Can't Wait.

Proof:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2852805#2858521

The World Workers Party (Stalinists) controls ANSWER.

Proof:

http://www.nathannewman.org/log/archives/000710.shtml

Two seconds of googling will provide this kind of evidence.

Just know that the people organizing these demonstrations also cheered on Chinese tanks when they crushed protesters in Tianenman square.

[katinmn]

230. Blanket staements like that are off base.

I know my local organizers of the protest and I resent your foolish comment.

[geek tragedy]

231. Okay. Only the national WCW people cheered for the tanks

that ran over democracy protesters.

[LoZoccolo]

59. If it's an easy enough attack, I'd expect anyone to use it.

Bush*, Karl Rove, Horowitz, me, several DUers...none of us are fond of communism. I saw someone post about this group on another message boards and even further-left anarchists are against this front group and the communist party who set it up. Are you going to accuse the anarchists of being in league with Bush*?

[Marie26]

48. Thanks for posting

Were you involved in this group at some point? Why do you characterize them as a cult? Do you think it's possible they're intending to provoke a police confrontation at the Oct. 5 rally?

[Bridget Burke]

50. Please support your statements.

I agree with the OP--I won't support a group that tells me to abandon the Democrats. Too bad--they appear to have some good ideas.

But your Commie/Pinko accusations seem a bit hysterical. Explain your problems with the Advisory Board & Steering Committee.

http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=0&Itemid=2#com

[rinsd]

77. Ummmmm from your link

Allen Lang, New York City
Allen Lang is the National Student and Youth Coordinator for The World Can't Wait! Drive Out The Bush Regime. Allen got his start as a political organizer after witnessing the horrors that suffocate millions of sweatshop workers in the 3rd World and being inspired by the anti-Globalization movement that burst on to the scene during the 1999 Seattle WTO and IMF protests. As a member of the Revolutionary Communist Youth Brigade, he led student walkouts and demonstrations protesting the U.S. invasion of Iraq, and was part of shutting down a military recruitment center during the March 5th 2003 Moratorium to Stop the War. After visiting the West Bank of Palestine with the International Solidarity Movement in 2002, he organized an East Coast Speaking Tour. He leads workshops to stop military recruitment in high schools and has organized progressive film festivals in Utah and Philadelphia.

[Poll_Blind]

106. Wait, ONE commie and they're ALL COMMIES? Blacklist! n/t

PB

[geek tragedy]

135. WCW was FOUNDED by Communists. It is a front organization

for a group that would line every one of us up and shoot us if they ever came to power.

http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2160&Itemid=2

[katinmn]

156. Shoot you? Man, you are hysterical!

:)
And you have been thoroughly indictrinated to make wild assumptions without any facts to back them up.

[geek tragedy]

216. I have your facts right here:

"I still have vivid memories of Kissinger explaining calmly to me once why, when the RCP took over, it would be necessary to shoot everyone who didn't agree with them; this is the guy who, while still actively working for such goals, reached new heights of respectability through his persistent and admittedly useful analyses of various appeals court outrages."

http://www.alternet.org/story/12128/

[katinmn]

225. Bwaaa! You're quoting someone quoting war criminal Kissinger???

Un-fucking-believable! And you don't even understand the passage!

[geek tragedy]

228. C. Clark Kissinger is a prominent member of the Revolutionary

Communist Party, the founders and controllers of World Can't Wait.

[grasswire]

58. thanks for the info you have provided

I wonder if people who have affiliated with WCW or donated to it have considered the fact that to ally with an organization that seeks vi0lent 0verthr0w of the g0vernment or donate to that organization can, as of the signing of yesterday's detainee bill, bring you to federal "attention."

Read again the background of C. Clint Kissinger. Tell me that Alberto Gonzales won't use his new powers to sweep up radicals and their known donors and supporters.

http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1386

snip

"Kissinger is a member of the Revolutionary Communist Party, a Maoist vanguard party, and a contributing writer for its official organ, the Revolutionary Worker. Kissinger began his public activism in the early 1960s when he was the national secretary of Students for a Democratic Society (SDS), the leading radical organization of its day. In 1969, SDS became the Weather Underground, America's first terrorist cult.

Kissinger also worked closely with Fred Hampton and the Black Panther Party, and supported Mao Tse-tung's Communist regime in China which, according to The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression, was responsible for the deaths of 65 million of its own citizens. Kissinger continues to enjoy strong support from the Maoist Internationalist Movement (MIM), which, in its own words, "upholds the revolutionary communist ideology of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism," and views the Chinese Cultural Revolution as "the farthest advance of communism in human history."

MIM declares that it can only achieve its ends "by building public opinion to seize power through armed struggle." Chief among its objectives is to foment "revolution North America, as the military becomes over-extended in the government's attempts to maintain world hegemony."

Kissinger was a strong supporter of Iran's Islamic revolution and traveled to Iran in 1979 when the Ayatollah Khomeni and his Islamic radicals seized power. Four years later, he was in West Germany demonstrating against US plans to station cruise and Pershing missiles in Europe to meet the Soviet threat. Those missile deployments eventually led to the fall of the Soviet empire.

In 1987 Kissinger created "Refuse and Resist!" - on whose National Council he remains a member. R&R played a supportive role in the 1992 Los Angeles race riot, which left 58 people dead and 2,300 injured and which Kissinger referred to as a "rebellion." After 9/11, R&R opposed a specific provision of the Patriot Act requiring that all male immigrants (aged sixteen or older) from twenty Arab and Muslim countries and North Korea register with the INS. R&R warned that by such "targeting of men from specific nationalities," America was on its way to becoming "a nation behind barbed wire." The registration of Middle Eastern men, R&R claimed, was "quite possibly 'pre-registration' for internment" that would one day lead hordes of unsuspecting victims "like sheep to the slaughter."

[Bridget Burke]

64. "DiscoverTheNetwork: David Horowitz's Smear Portal"

Is there a difference between Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and Dennis Kucinich? Or Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Susan Sarandon? How about Mohammed Atta and Noam Chomsky?

Not according to DiscoverTheNetwork (DTN), a “Guide to the Political Left,” a sprawling database set up by the former Maoist and reborn Strausscon, David Horowitz. DTN, according to its About page, “identifies the individuals and organizations that make up the left and also the institutions that fund and sustain it; it maps the paths through which the left exerts its influence on the larger body politic; it defines the left’s (often hidden) programmatic agendas and it provides an understanding of its history and ideas.”

Sort of like the Illuminati or Third Degree Masons, only Marxist.

www.pressaction.com/news/weblog/full_article/nimmo02152005/

WCW's admonition to stop supporting the Democratic Party does not endear them to me. But the cite from David Horowitz does not convince me that they are firebreathing Marxists. Find a better source.

The fact that the site is registration-only says a lot about your interests.

[grasswire]

79. so you're questioning my patriotism??

Is that it? Has it come to that?

I'll tell you which side I'm on. The side of a Democratic majority in support of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Always, always, always.

Anyone interfering with the lawful election of Democrats, especially by subterfuge or trickery, will get the biggest scuffle from me that I can muster up. David Horowitz, Ralph Nader, WCW, all of them.

And I have no idea what your snide insinuation about "registration-only" means. I accessed the site through a google search; no registration. Do you dispute any of the facts provided about Kissinger's affiliations and history? No.

[blm]

82. I vouch for you grasswire - even when we disagree your motivations are

always true blue.

I've had my loyalties questioned, too, by some here. As if someone who comes to DU 5 yrs ago warning about RevMoon, Tim laHaye, corporate media takeovers, electronic vote machine rigging, and supporting John Kerry and Dennis Kucinich is somehow NOT a good Democrat compared to the Carville crowd.

I'll stand with you - you're tough and try to get your facts right.

[Bridget Burke]

86. I'm sure you're a true fan of the Red White & Blue.....

Mom, Apple Pie & the 4th of July.

I'm not a fan of WCW--at all. But I find that particular source quite repulsive.

[geek tragedy]

136. It's a matter of public record that the RCP founded WCW.

http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2160&Itemid=2

"Q: But aren't there communists in World Can't Wait?

A: Yeah, there are. Supporters of the Revolutionary Communist Party helped initiate it. "

[MH1]

112. Better source...WhoIs

see this subthread please:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2852805#2852854

So, the site was registered and is owned by an avowed communist, from information on his own site (please actually look at his site if my post wasn't enough).

Horowitz is as bad as you say, and I wish no one had used him as a source, but the essence of what he says about Kissinger seems to be correct.

[LynneSin]

36. World can wait can remove me from their mailing list

I supported their cause but I'd like to know how they think that Republicans controlling congress will support their cause?

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LynneSin]

45. Well, WCW is doing a damn job spinning for Karl Rove

It is extremely foolish for anyone out there to honest believe that voting 3rd Party or not voting is somehow going to improve the situation in DC. It's not - it's only enabling the republican party. Why do you think Rick Santorum had his cronies donate $100,000 to help a Green Party candidate to gather the signatures (a third which were illegal) to get on the US Senate ticket. Republicans know the more we can syphon votes away from the democrats the better of chance that they can continue their control of congress. This is why the Republicans have 33% support and STILL win elections. Hell that's how the Nazi party gained control with less than 40%

Give me a flawed democratic party because within that flawed party are some amazing senators and representatives who have done us proud - main who are in line to gain a committee chair seat. I'll vote for a questionable democrat NOT because I support that democrat, but because I support John Conyers, Henry Waxman, Charles Rangal, Barbara Boxer, Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, Russ Feingold, Patrick Leahy and if you give me another 30-40 minutes I'll list several dozen more.

[calico1]

49. I agree that we shouldn't vote for Dems!

We need to teach them a lesson! I mean, look how well it worked in 2000! We need to forget about Republicans and focus all our efforts on not electing Democrats! :sarcasm:
:grr:
:mad:

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[grasswire]

57. kick for the day crowd

[closeupready]

62. Interesting thread - I was just going to start a new one

saying that I'm considering staying home this year. I'm repulsed by Republicans and disgusted with appeasanous Democrats.

[Bridget Burke]

67. Yes, we're expecting a lot of threads like that.

The new meme: Don't bother to vote. Especially if you're a Democrat.

I'm not happy that my Rep, Sheila Jackson Lee, missed the vote. She's usually pretty reliable. And my vote against Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison probably won't matter. But I'll vote, anyway. Kinky Friedman is a fine comedian, but he's helping Good Hair defeat our Democratic candidate for Governor.

Who's your Rep? Which of your Senators is up for re-election this year? How did they vote?

[closeupready]

69. Well, Hillary is one,

and I'm still waiting for her to repudiate her pro-Iraq War position. I like the noises she's been making very recently ("i just ignore cheney", "dems don't have to march lockstep," etc.), but unless she just says, "I was wrong" or something like that, i'm over it all right now. (maybe i'm just having a bad week, lol)

[rinsd]

63. Its absolutely shocking that the far left would use a march to recruit

:sarcasm:

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rinsd]

76. Its bait and switch

Fewer would come if they knew who organized it and a few have not come back after dealing with free mumia bs when they came to march against the war.

See the last real anti war big march ANSWER did. People were pissed off about the laundry list of secondary issues at an ostensibly anti-war march.

[MH1]

113. Exactly!

People who want to fight one particular issue don't want to automatically become associated with a lot of other positions they don't agree with.

[mcg]

137. I for one was pissed off about an ANSWER march in DC.

I went there for an anti-Iraq war march and found myself next to communists
screaming about all sorts of stuff. They are dishonest and they are not liberals.

[DancingBear]

80. Joe! Joe! Joe!

Hey, Spot, here litlle Spotty....

I've always been ahead of the curve, you know... :)

Don't worry 'bout the true believers - they're just waiting for the sanctioned march.

It will have balloons and Senators and everything.

Prisoners will be let out of their cells for 15 minutes to attend.

See, if we DIDN"T elect that Dem majority NOBODY could have gone.

Feeling better now??

[windbreeze]

68. So all those "millions" that attend their march on Oct 5th,

just possibly will decide not to vote, because of this group's influence???? WHAT THE HELL IS THIS ANYWAY?...who's in charge of this organization? and what are they thinking??..ROVE must be having a wet dream, thinking about how they might succeed in taking care of this election...they won't have to steal it, at this rate....we'll give it to them...that's the ticket, by god, convince democrats NOT to vote, that'll sure give us the needed majority...

Is it possible that all the people signing up, are being blindsided??? We all know, that there are those Democrats we aren't personally happy with right now...but....not voting is not the way to handle that situation.....I didn't care for this group stating that they wanted to reach young people by advertising on My Space..uh huh..so any organization(or person)subversive or otherwise, wanting to target(influence)kids, do so by advertizing on My Space?....hmmmm....my red warning flags are flying...

So I did a little more reading on the site....tell me what a member of the Revolutionary COMMUNIST YOUTH Brigade...Allen Lang...and Ralph Nader have in common? BOTH ARE MEMBERS OF THIS GROUP, and Allen Lang sits on the STEERING COMMITTEE....finding Ralph Nader is a member, isn't sending DU into a questioning frenzy?....But then you have Studs Terkel, Jed Stone, Gore Vidal and Ray McGovern as members also..

Thanks...I needed to take more time to read their site...people on DU who are recommending this organization, may need to dig a little deeper..because if their whole purpose(hidden agenda) is, to convince Democrats not to vote at all, because they're no better than the R's...then perhaps we need to rethink helping them advertize?...(just sayin')
windbreeze

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[windbreeze]

81. You obviously have your own agenda

I, on the other hand, became wary of what this group stands for...BUT...when reading about ANY group...attempting to discourage Democrats from voting, because the dems are no better than R's...then I am glad I got wise now instead of later...and if I feel a need to scream FOUL, then I have that right...especially after reading a little further, and find the group has A REVOLUTIONARY COMMUNIST YOUTH BRIGADE member on their STEERING COMMITTEE...sorry...you do what you must...and so will I...and that means, I will NOT get involved with this group...PERIOD!! BUT I WILL MOST DEFINITELY VOTE...(didn't I just read on DU yesterday, that Kissinger, a member of RCB, (as noted in a post above) makes quite frequent visits to the WH?....gee, I wonder what they could be planning?)

let's see, this gov't feels they have the right to use non lethal forms of weapons on you..you can be arrested and sent away forever...oh and now they can torture you...so how is exposing myself in a mass protest going to help Democrats win the election again??? By all means, if you feel the need to vent...please do so..but leave me out...and Karl Rove be damned!!

I have a suggestion as a matter of fact...ONE person..holding a sign that states ENOUGH IS ENOUGH....on some street, in a city, or town somewhere...makes more of an impression on those passing by...than millions do...IF you feel the need to vent..do it yourself..you don't need thousands of misled others to hold you up...(a little story..on Labor day, we drove through a little town..standing beside the road, was ONE man...with a sign that stated..9/11 was an inside job...because of where he stood..no one could pass by w/o seeing him and his sign...I saluted his courage..and it had one hell of an impact on me and my family)
windbreeze

[windbreeze]

98. I made a mistake in the previous post...

and can't edit it out...I have the wrong Kissinger credited with visiting the WH..apologies to anyone confused by my mistake..(hanging head in shame)
wb

[LynneSin]

74. Actually I might be going to a fundraiser with Bill Clinton

:D

Better way to spend October 5th. I need to see if I can get the time off

[windbreeze]

84. Perhaps a far better way to spend the day...

from what I hear of Clinton...it wouldn't be a waste of time..
I hope you can..
wb

[whirlygigspin]

123. R.I.P. wagthedogwar, we hardly knew ya

Tombstoned in the cause of Habius Corpus

-- we'll miss your bark and wag of tale.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MAX 1]

72. Digestion

So...

Bush is bad
The GOP are Fascists
The Dem's are clueless, weak, and lame

So who EXACTLY does the TWCW support?

I should be so mad at Bush for becoming a Tyrannical despot.
I should be so mad at Congress for giving him their blessings.
I should be so mad so as to take to the streets...

I should be so mad that I don't seek change, but demand it by doing nothing but march in the streets.

So...

Bush stays in office cause TWCW can't support a alternate to the status quo. But TWCW does know that the status quo is not good enough, the way it is now. They just don't know what to do next?

Oh...

I get it. Give 'em more money to stuff up their butts and maybe it will finally reach their empty heads and they'll become enlightened enough to realize that Gandhi was right:

BE THE CHANGE YOU SEEK FROM THE WORLD

You just have to know WHAT it is that needs to be changed, and then into WHAT.

[meganmonkey]

83. "by doing nothing but march in the streets."

"I don't seek change, but demand it by doing nothing but march in the streets."

:wtf:

What else has ever affected serious change on behalf of a country's people anywhere in the world's history?

Mass strikes. Mass protests. Refuse-niks. Refusing to participate in and recognize corrupt systems.

It is NOT about this party or that party, it is about the corrupted system as a whole.

I seriously think many people here don't grasp how bad it is. And it is going to get worse. FAST.

[Zhade]

153. See? You get it.

I think you're right - many here seem to think that simply voting in a Dem majority will right the course of this Titanic.

Nope. But it's less scary to think that way.

(Wish they were right, though.)

[mirabeau]

205. You don't get it and neither does WCW!

It's not either/or...should we protest? or should we vote? Let's debate which one will work? That's a waste of time!!

WE NEED TO DO BOTH!

Civil Rights and Women's Rights were not won by either demonstrating or voting. It took a concerted effort of both. People took it to the streets to get the attention of the public AND the government. The public was informed and motivated to elect those who would support their causes, our leaders were dramatically informed of what we expected of them.

Laws are made in the Capitol, not on the street. If the protest isn't meant to influence what happens in the Capitol, then it's a waste of time.

The problem with these groups is that they think that anger will motivate people. Anger does not motivate, it is a very debilitating emotion that drains your energy. The only thing that motivates is hope. Anger without hope leads to depression. Anger with even the slightest bit of hope can be a powerful force.

The democrats are our hope.

[Zynx]

73. Indeed. Helping Republicans being elected by staying home does

nothing. I have had it with the ideologues in both parties.

[zulchzulu]

78. They can go Cheney themselves...

What a bunch of lemmings. Thanks for the warning.

[wagthedogwar]

89. looks like the spin cycle is done

This thread was brought to you by:
http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/default.asp

Discover the Networks
A rightwing website that monitors the U.S. political left wing. It was launched in 2004 by David Horowitz and has a staff of over a dozen contributors.

According to the project's missions statement, Discover the Network's goal is to provide a comprehensive "guide to the political left"...The project also seeks to "define the left's agendas,"

Discover the Network is associated with the Center for the Study of Popular Culture and FrontPageMag.com, which have received numerous grants from right-wing foundations. <1>

[Jcrowley]

87. There is Much Disinformation here

First let us examine the people who are shaping the platform of World Can't Wait. Now I challenge any who disparage this group to list more solid progressive individuals with a track record to prove it.

National Steering Committee: 

Father Luis Barrios, New York City
Mark James, Los Angeles
Rev. Deborah Elandus Lake, Chicago
Allen Lang, New York City
Prachi Noor, New York City
Debra Sweet, New York City

Advisory Board:

Lynne Stewart, attorney
Rosemary Candelario, pro-choice activist
Boots Riley, hip hop performer
Gore Vidal, writer
Warren Hern MD, Physician and pro-choice activist
Sunsara Taylor, writer
Mark Crispin Miller, professor & writer
Tom Olmos, attorney
Mark Leno, CA State Assembly
Howard Zinn, historian

http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=0&Itemid=2

[greyl]

91. "10 Reasons NOT to Put Your Hopes and Money into the Democrats"

Your listing of people involved doesn't address the heart of the matter.

[Jcrowley]

92. So that's the heart of the matter?

My heart is in principles not money, I'm too poor for the money thing to matter anyway. My hopes are with the people not the snakepit in DC. I take it on a case by case basis. Kucinich I respect. Hillary I hold in complete contempt. I will put my faith in Howard Zinn long before any of those who keep voting for war funding. Principles before politics. This is not a game.

[greyl]

93. Their heart is in money.

There are plenty of things printed at the site that I agree with, but it's not an informative site - it's a fundraising site. I'm all for constructive criticism of the figureheads of our Liberal Democracy, but that site gives the broadest of broad brush smears against Dems.
Did you buy some Head On, too?

[Jcrowley]

94. I'm not a buyer

of things. Best to traffic in ideas rather than insults. Hope to see ya' on the 5th with a very diverse array of people who will hope for better days and express that wish in person.

[ProudDad]

104. Hear, hear! JCrowley

I could not have said it better!

[Vidar]

90. Actually it said "don't contiribute money"--not a word on voting.

[Der Blaue Engel]

95. Right...and not contributing does no harm at all to electing Democrats

:puke:

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

100. Another group who needs the GOP to stay in power.......

....so they have something to bitch about. These are the same types who still say voting for Nader was the right thing to do in 2000 and Gore and Bush were one in the same.

Screw that. Vote for and give money to Democrats. The rest of us in the real world can't afford to have the Repugs in office any longer.

[lwcon]

101. I say, fuck 'em.

Thanks for the tip!

__

Hey, the liberal light is always on at the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy. Please stop by and say "hi!"

[ShortnFiery]

102. Let's wait an hear more clarification? Not all are inline with this. n/t.

[lwcon]

103. Sorry, no

I hope the good guys whose names are on this will pull out.

Urging people to divert money from the only party that can make a difference into their shady organization is the last fucking thing we need.

___

Hey, the liberal light is always on at the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy. Please stop by and say "hi!"

[Poll_Blind]

105. A tale of two threads. This one and another, both cover the rally.

  There was another thread on this topic. It was posted about 3pm yesterday (Saturday). It contained simply the following:

This fight has just begun. Mass action is the only way now.

We need to turn out so many democratic voters that they won't be able to fix the vote.

http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&t...

Everyone must vote.

  It was received enthusiastically and got 19 votes before it was locked for containing a link to this organization, the same one listed in this thread. The moderator was right, of course, linking to this site broke DU rules because the site recommends explicitly not voting for Democrats.

  And then there is this thread. However, this thread is balanced a little differently. It does not mention a rally in the subject line, instead choosing to focus attention (outside of a single sentence) on the fact that they recommend giving money to them over the Democrats.

  But there's no charge for the rally. The price of entry merely appears to be Progressive ideology. I've seen the same thing with...that organization that puts on most of the large anti-Bush rallies, you've probably seen at least one on C-Span. I'm choosing not to use their name because they may be verboten to name here. Anyway, the charge to get their rallies is also general progressive ideology.

  Now there's a lot of less-than-good-natured crap-throwing at this this "worldcantwait.net". And there are some people in this thread who are trying to bring some perspective on this and I'm concerned they might get into hot water for it.

  But the point is this: These other two organizations are Progressive organizations. They're holding rallies to bring to attention Bush's failings. They're not funded by Al-Quaeda, you don't have to pledge money or a loyalty oath to get into their events and you certainly can walk out of events like these unafraid that you have somehow "cheated on" the Democratic party.

  Having a two-minutes-hate about this place (which has gone on now for a couple of hours) doesn't seem remotely constructive. In fact, if we can't work with other progressive groups without excoriating them because they do not adhere to our specific ideology that's one thing. But it goes just a little farther to really make an effort to put them down, and then drive in your heel as though Progressives who don't agree with the Democratic Party are scum of some sort. I know if I attend the rally I will be under no illusions about who I'm going to vote for in November.

  Is that really, seriously, in question?

  I hope to hear about every rally where people can gather and bitch about how much they hate Bush. And I disagree with them, but I don't hate them. There's a difference. This sort of anger is, and this is something worth thinking about, not really representative of the Democratic Party in the real world. The Democratic party is an inclusive organization who has jointly put on events with other organizations which may not support giving money to them either.

  My message may go "poof", or maybe this thread will, but it was worth writing if even one person takes the time to read it and simply consider that Progressives may come in many different stripes but we're all stripes on the same animal.

PB

[lwcon]

108. If you're part of diverting money from the solution...

... you're part of the problem.

(I don't mean you, I mean WCW).

It seems a lot of people get their knickers in a knot if you mention Nader in 2000, but the fact is his campaign siphoned off progressive voters.

Progressives are born with the congenital risk of splitting into splinter groups, much like "Life of Brian's" Judean People's Front and People's Front of Judea.

At a time when the GOP has put its venality on steriods and is truly shredding the Bill of Rights, we simply don't have the luxury of catering to the more-politically-corrrect-than-thou temptation. So a shadowy group that's rallying progressives and sending them a message that disempowers the very group this site is made to support absolutely deserves our scorn.

I understand that these rallies can somewhat transcend the foibles of their leaders. A lot of people drew positive inspiration from the Million Man March, but it didn't make Louis "Hitler was a very great man" Farrakhan not a bigot.

Indeed, some real good may come out of seeing a sea of anti-Bush protesters on that day. But we ought to be suspicious of the characters running this thing and need to be loudly warning people about their disempowering, anti-Democrat message.

___

Hey, the liberal light is always on at the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy. Please stop by and say "hi!"

[windbreeze]

116. Listen....

I went back to the site...and read this...
"If you are putting your hopes and energies into the Democrats winning the 2006 elections....check out the following....Top 10 reasons NOT(and "NOT" IS emphasized) to put your money and resources into the Democrats..." so what does that mean? because that's word for word, right off the site...

So then I go to the FAQ and find the following statements..

"Look, go ahead and vote if you think you must, but the question is whether you are going to put your resources and energies into something that has disappointed you time and again? Something that doesn't even represent your demands and interests? Or into something you not only agree with, but that carries the only chance now before us to carve a different road and a different future"...so what are they proposing...?? to me their intent is vague as hell...a body politic w/o R's or D's????

Also found this under FAQ's...."Face it, the political will of the people is not going to find expression through the elections"...so those last two statements are telling us what exactly??? the message I get, is don't vote, it's not going to do you any good...

"But aren't there Communists in WCW?"..."Yeah, there are...Supporters of the Revolutionary Communist Party helped initiate it..." by that I take it they mean the Communist party got WCW itself going...

I get the feeling from reading on their site that they have NO idea where this is all headed...but that they want the current regime to be removed and face prosecution for all they have done...that's noble...and basically I may just agree with it...but...encouraging people not to vote, and to NOT financially support or donate time/energy to Democratic candidates is going to do what exactly?...

How many times in past history have people who wanted to do good, ended up finding out that they had been misled? Or that the organization they were involved with, had their own agenda, and in the end, the two agendas were different after all?
For everyone who intends to take part...obviously that is your choice...but when you do, it makes it appear that you support whatever their site says...

Oh, and when I went to the link you provided...it said I was not authorized to view this resource...that I had to log in...well, since I am not sure I want to be associated..obviously I don't know if I want my name on their email list...but I do have to say, I can't understand the thoughts of a group that states in plain sight, where the public can read it..."Look, go ahead and vote if you think you must, but..etc., etc.,"....and "Top ten reasons NOT to put your money and resources into the Democrats"...and then obviously in private(because I sure can't access it)...state "how we need to turn out so many Democratic voters that they won't be able to fix the vote" "everyone must vote"...makes it appear that the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing..


windbreeze

[sarahlee]

120. I agree with your position

Just because someone or some group hopes to splinter you, you don't have to accept that in order to join together in the places where you agree.

Seneca Elder Edna Gordon suggests

A BROOMSTICK REVOLUTION

WE NEED CHANGES in this world, really big big changes. I’m prayin’ they’ll be peaceable changes, not violent and bloody ones. I’d like to see a peaceable revolution, a revolution of broomsticks instead of guns.

Call it a Broomstick Revolution.

That’s right. The People pick up their broomsticks and march together and Sweep Injustice Out! Make a clean sweep, a big cleanin’ like’s never been seen before.

Broomsticks against Injustice. Now that’ll be the day!

We’ll take our broomsticks and we’ll sweep Leonard Peltier right out o’ prison, along with all the other innocents.

Yep—a Broomstick Revolution! That’s what we need!

A-ho, brothers, sisters, it's in OUR HANDS...take back America by BROOMSTICK!

http://pdamerica.org/petition/mcgovern-petition.php">

[Crunchy Frog]

107. Are we sure we really know who it is their working for?

I mean, I get discouraged too, but Jesus H. Christ. Telling people to, in effect, just let the Republicans win. Yeah, I'm questioning their motives.:eyes:

[CJCRANE]

109. That's bad.

If they're serious about change they should reach out to progressive Democrats.

[anaxarchos]

115. It's shocking...

...that a mobilizing committee calling for street demonstrations against the war in Iraq, torture, and a dozen other major policy issues should have lost some faith in electoral politics or the Democratic Party. This is just terrible.

While they are at it, they better change their name to get my support.

I think it should be, "The World Can Wait Another Couple of Years" coalition.


Of course, that's only assuming a presidential and a congressional victory in 2008...

Maybe it should be the, "The World Can Wait Some More... Don't Go Away" coalition.

[MadHound]

117. Whaaaa! Tell you what, when the Dems start organizing people

For out-in-the streets protest, then they can start pushing a pro Dem message to go along with the anti-war, anti-Bush message. But somehow, after continously voting for the war and war support, voting for the Patriot Act, failing to vigorously oppose things like Bushco's appointments or the torture bill, frankly I doubt that the Dems are going to be doing any such sort of organizing anytime soon.

So the fact is, you've got to dance with those that brought you. The anti-war/anti-bush coalition is a broad one, and they're not all pro-
Dem. Deal with it. If you don't like it, organize your own nationwide walk-out. But until that happens, you've got to realize that you are dealing with people who don't agree with you on all matters, you've got to take what other outlooks come along with the anti-war, anti-bush stance.

[MH1]

118. I partially agree with you but the point is important

If you are giving money to this organization, you are giving money to denounce the Democratic Party.

Those of us who are here because we support the Democratic Party will not likely support an organization that is smearing us, ya think?

[MadHound]

124. That's your right

You don't want to support these folks, don't. However stopping the war is the most important issue for myself, and I will be joining the folks at WCW for their walkout on the fifth. Unlike those who wish for ideologicaly pure Democrats, I can work with others whose interest doesn't agree with mine 100%.

[lwcon]

119. I've been "dealing with it" for six years

It's swell that these guys are running a walkout.

But what happens to us in the next two years after they convince young progressives to squander their votes on the Free-Range Hemp Party?

There are two parties that can dance with us in the short term: Democrat or Republican. If you leave the Dems off your dance card, heaven help us.

___

Hey, the liberal light is always on at the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy. Please stop by and say "hi!"

[MadHound]

125. Nice to see that you can let the war grind on for the sake of being

Ideologically pure. I on the other hand consider ending the war being of utmost importance, and frankly the Dems aren't doing a damn thing to stop it. Therefore I work with others who are trying like hell to stop the war. Doesn't mean I have to give money to this group, doesn't mean I have to support all of their positions, doesn't mean I'm giving my vote away this fall. It simply means that I'm trying to stop this goddamn, illegal, immoral war by any means possible.

And yet some can't take such actions unless it is 100% ideologically pure. How stupid, sad, and downright immoral. What the fuck has the Democratic party done to stop this war? Oh yeah, continuing to fund it:eyes:

So go ahead and wait for that Dem approved, ideologically pure anti-war protest. While you're waiting those of us who can actually play nice with others despite their politics will go ahead and do our damnest to stop this war without you. You can thank us later, that is if it's ideologically approved by DLC:eyes:

[lwcon]

126. I'd say you have it exactly backwards

The ideological purists are the ones who refuse to work with the army we've got, and that army is the Democrats.

But it is nice to meet the only progressive who wants the war in Iraq to end. What a cool idea!

Of course, the Dems fucked up by trusting Bush with war powers, and a minority of them signed onto these awful bills that are being rushed through Congress.

But if you siphon votes and funding from the Democrats in this year's elections, how exactly are you going to end the war anytime soon?

More and more Democrats have been calling to end the war. And with the majority in Congress, they can get it done.

A big anti-Bush protest is a great thing, but WCW's anti-Dem stance is cutting off our nose to spite our face.

A protest is a protest. It doesn't give us a majority in Congress, especially if it sends the message not to vote for today's only viable opposition party.

___

Hey, the liberal light is always on at the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy. Please stop by and say "hi!"

[MadHound]

144. Again, where is the Democratically organized anti-war protests?

Who is getting the people out into the streets? It certainly isn't the Dems friend, so you've got to work with others, play nice with people who don't share all of our views. Can you handle that? Apparently not, apparently you don't get out into the streets unless it is a Dem sponsored event. Sorry, but I'm tolerant enough to work with others to achieve the greater good, stopping the war.

And please, stop making lame excuses for the Dem voting record. If the Democrats had simply done their job, ie represent the collective will of their constituents, then they wouldn't have voted for the IWR, and we wouldn't be in Iraq. And making excuses for the Dems failure to all out oppose people and issues like the Patriot Act, the IWR, the Alito nomination, and the latest torture bill is just pathetic. Is that powder still dry:eyes: Really now, with something as draconian as the Patriot Act, or the torture bill, you have to oppose with everything you've got, including filibuster and walking out, refusing a quorum. There are issues that are so horrendous that one has to insure they never pass. Instead, a minority(and in some cases majority) of Dems voted for said issues, there was some token opposition, but no full out, no holds barred opposition, and here we are, living in a police state, complete with torture. Ooo, what good have the Dems done lately?

And you, and others around here are making the assumption that is one joins this protest that somehow we'll be brainwashed in giving money to WCW or other such groups. Well I seriously doubt that is going to happen. If I donate any money to anti-war efforts it will be to my local group, who are coordinating with WCW. Nor will I automatically vote non-Democratics because I take part in these protests. And gee, hopefully on Oct 5, both Bushco and Democrats will see millions of people out in the streets on the fifth, protesting the war, wanting to bring the troops home now. Again, this sort of showing isn't something that the Democrats are putting on friend.

So hey, if you want to wait for that Democratically approved anti-war protest, fine, wait for it. But the rest of us, out here in the reality based world are fully cognizant of the fact that there is an immediate need to keep public pressure on our elected officials, both Democratic and Republican. And the rest of us in the reality based world realize that in such alliances we have to deal with people that don't share all of our opinions, and gee, we can deal with it. Because quite frankly stopping the war is of the highest priority, and one can't afford to be ideologically pure to stop it, compromises must be made. So sit there and wait for your mythical Dem anti-war protest, the rest of us will be out in the streets doing the heavy lifting. Oh, and if makes you feel better, I'll be voting McCaskill this fall for Senate. Just like I've voted and worked for Dem candidates for the past thirty four years, though it gets tougher with every new election. Frankly you're lucky that it is Talent who was in office for the torture bill, for I feel like voting out every Congress critter who either voted for that monstrosity, or didn't oppose it with every possible action.

[greyl]

147. Here's one ;)

http://www.cosmicseed.net/a/midnightpeaceyell.htm

It never really took off. Maybe if more DUers advertised for it or if I asked for money.
:)

[Zhade]

154. Let's be honest - it's more an anti-voting stance, not anti-Dem.

It - wrongly, IMHO - discourages voting, including for Dems, but it sure doesn't ENCOURAGE voting for Repubs!

It's more along the lines of "voting isn't going to change much, if anything".

Looking back these last six years, they're not all that far off the mark in that regard.

[lwcon]

159. While I've sometimes been disappointed in Dems, I'm not disillusioned

I'm proud to vote for the likes of Al Gore, John Kerry, and Ted Kennedy.

We've been punk'd in a lot of ways, by the media, by a populace that cares about nothing but kicking some Middle Eastern ass, and by fearfulness of some of our Democratic Congressmen.

But I can't imagine how anyone can't see the massively huge difference between Dems and Repubs.

The Dems are sometimes bullied into acquiescence. It sucks. It would be great if everyone had the balls of Russ Feingold. I wish they did. But who thinks the Dems, if in power, would be pushing through bills to torture people and revoke habeas corpus?

Many years ago, when Johnson let Vietnam spiral out of control, we had the likes of Bobby Kennedy ready to jump in and right the ship. If only....

Who did the Repubs put up against Nixon after his secret plan to end the war evaporated on election day?

The Democrats are the party of conscience. The vast majority stood up to last week's awful bill, despite a climate where they're in constant danger of being run out of town on a rail for being "soft on terror" if they stop short of personally drawing and quartering ever Muslim they encounter.

These times are fucked up, and Democrats are imperfect, but they are so massively more sane and humane than the alternative, it makes me sick to hear all this talk of shrugging our shoulders and not voting.

You can be sure that every dickwad who uses his vote to make sure gays can't marry and that the disenfranchised don't get a helping hand will show up at the polls. They always do.

So, how about us?

___

Hey, the liberal light is always on at the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy. Please stop by and say "hi!"

[MadHound]

167. Sorry, but the vast majority of Dems did not stand up to that awful bill

They may have voted against it, but really now, did they pull out all the stops? No, they didn't. On a bill that is so fundementally anti-American all that the Dems did was to decry it from the pit and vote against it. But let's see, what other options did they have? The Dems in the Senate could have filibustered, that's one way of stopping it. Another way would have been for the Dems in both the Senate and the House to walk out, denying Congress a quorum until that POS bill was off the table. And while they were out and about, they could have taken to the bully pulpit to sway the people into opposing this monstrosity. All of this and more they could have done, but they didn't. They simply went through the motions of opposition, when what was called for was a never say die opposition. And now we all have to suffer for it. I hope that it is some sort of comfort to you that the Dems "opposed" this when Bushco declares you an enemy combatant, hauls you off to Gitmo for some "extreme rendering" all without a writ of habeus corpus. Frankly when that happens to me, I'll be cussing out the Dems almost as much as the 'Pugs, because they failed to do their primary job, which is to defend and support the Constitution.

[lwcon]

175. And why do you think that is?

We share deep disappointment that there weren't more Dems taking a stand on this early, loudly, and fighting tooth and nail on it.

There's no question that they've been running scared. If it's not admirable, which it isn't, it's fairly understandable.

John Kerry gets crucified for being a war hero and dropping a dime on a disastrous war.

Another decorated vet, Senator Max Cleland, gets smeared as a traitor and a coward, and now the only seat he has left is his wheelchair.

The Dems hold a meeting to announce a plan to get out of Iraq, and the press doesn't cover it. Same, by the way, with many massive Iraq war protests.

They've been so badly out-jingoed, out-dirty-tricked, and out-mediaed, that many of them are afraid of their own shadows.

The small filament they have left is the filibuster, which I agree should have been used on this bill -- and on the Supreme Court appointments. But, here too, the Repub hegemony has them backed into a corner, with the threat of the "nuclear option," where they ban filibusters altogether -- which they're only too happy to do, since pissing on the American legislative process is but a reflex to them.

My goal is to help the Democrats, in whatever little way I can, get enough firepower behind them that they can vote their conscience without having to constantly worry about watching their backs. Getting out the vote to take over Congress is the best short-term solution I can think of. Longer term, I support efforts to replace DINOs with true progressives at the very first opportunity, so there are more true consciences doing that voting.

Sneaking don't-vote / don't-fund-Democrat messages into a peace-march platform, regardless of whether you choose to march, is highly counterproductive and deserves to be called out, and it sets an agenda that tells Democratic candidates not to support an otherwise promising, and maybe important, rally.

___

Hey, the liberal light is always on at the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy. Please stop by and say "hi!"

[mirabeau]

210. Wake up....

You say: "Therefore I work with others who are trying like hell to stop the war." Okay...please explain HOW they are going to stop the war. Are they going to hold their breath. Are they going to Iraq and stand in the line of fire and yell "STOP!"

They only people who can stop the war are in the Capitol!

You say that the dems have done nothing to stop the war. They don't have the power to do anything until we give it them.

[MadHound]

213. Gee, another one who has forgotten the lessons of history

Who was it who got the ball rolling on getting the US out of Vietnam? Those who took to the streets. Who were those who got the ball rolling for civil rights? Those who took to the streets. Who was it who got the ball rolling for womens' rights? Those who took to the streets. On and on, throughout history, around the world, you see time and again how putting people out into the streets in large numbers brings about change. That's what gives backbones to politicians and government leaders, where they can point and say "Here is what the people want". It sends a powerful message of change to the rest of the country and world.

You are also sadly lacking in civics. The Dems aren't powerless, they have the weapon of the filibuster. They also have the weapon of the bully pulpit. And if they want to launch the ultimate "nuclear option" they can do like those fine folks in Texas, and walk out en masse, thus denying a quorum and preventing anything from happening. There are also dozens of procedural manuevers they could undertake if they so choose. Instead, time and again, all that we have seen is the Dems put up perfunctory debate, followed by a vote in which a significant number from their side cross over and vote with the 'Pugs. This isn't fighting, this is rolling over like a whipped cur.

Don't you get it? Don't you understand? Our Constitution was eviserated last week, yet all you can say is that the Dems were powerless. Sorry, but that just ain't so, and I suggest that you go revisit your civics lessons. The Dems once again failed us on a piece of legislation that rips gaping holes in our Constitution. When we absolutely, positively had to have them stand up on their hind legs and fight like their country depended on, once again they caved on us, and consigned this country to the tender mercies of Bush and the neocons.

God help us all, because it appears that our so called leaders will.

[mirabeau]

219. In a previous post....

....I clearly stated that we need to do both, PROTEST AND VOTE.

The Democrats have some power....why not give them as much power as we can, the majority. Then we can ALSO take to the streets.

I'm not saying that if we win the House and Senate we can just sit back and relax. That's when the real work begins. The best time to get a million people to Washington to protest Iraq is AFTER the election if the Democrats take both Houses. At least we will be sending a message to a party with many members who will listen, who care and who will have the power to do something about it.

[MadHound]

221. Well, in your previous reply to me, you asked

HOW the protesters were going to stop a war. I've provided you with an answer, replete with examples.

But on to your latest reply. I find your faith in the Democratic party touching. Misguided perhaps, but touching. Misguided because this is the very same party that had a majority of its Congressional members who were on board and OK with the IWR in the first place. Same goes with Patriot Act. But even if we do get a majority of anti-war Dems in Congress, they can't bring the troops home, not after the IWR. No, the only one who is going to bring them home is the President. About the only power the Dems will have is that of the purse, and do you honestly think that the Dems, being the political creatures that they are, are going to withhold money from the troops, especially in light of the fact that they've continued to be in favor of funding this illegal, immoral war for the past three and a half years?

And it is nice to see that you're willing to sit on your ass and do nothing about this war, waiting for the Dems to get Congressional majorities. Unlike you, I refuse to wait as more of our soldiers and more innocent civilians continue to die. And apparently unlike many posters on this board, I don't have to work with only the ideologically pure in order to achieve our mutual goal of stopping the slaughter. So while you continue to wait and put your faith in a failed institution, I'll be out in the streets with millions of my brothers and sisters, doing the heavy lifting and protest work of stopping this war.

[pecwae]

150. Wish I could rec. this post.

I'll be dancing Thursday. My dancing partners and I may not agree on everything, but we'll be on the floor together on this one.

[Pierzin]

121. At Least they got you to think about it... and that is something

and at least WorldCantWait is an organization that is Doing Something. which is more than I can say for far far too many organizations across this land, as democracy and our constitution are being pissed on on a daily basis.
Sure, I have my problems with some of the Democrats too, but they are better than the alternative. Yes, many of them did vote for NAFTA and CAFTA and some less them truely liberal ideals, but to deny myself the right to vote is just loony.
You would have to lock me up to prevent me from going to the pols.

[whirlygigspin]

122. red baiting redux

This video might shed some light on the whole situation

http://www.tbtmradio.com/video/tbtmfoley.wmv

In it you will find DU's very own Symbolman and Stranger debating none other than Tom Foley
on the issue at hand.

DU is nothing, if not timely.

[conscious evolution]

127. I went to a couple of their

meetings in Atl.All of the leadership introducedthemselves as members of the communist youth brigade.And they definitly try to get me to ignore the democratic party.
Sorry,but failed economic systems such as communism should not try to put down the best thing to ever happen in economics--progressive free enterprise.

[MsMagnificent]

128. WCW has some real negatives, but dammit I'm Marching!

Because I attend doesn't mean I'll fall into lock-step behind the WCW's every whim -- looking over their website, damn few in fact. It doesn't mean I'll financially support them. It doesn't mean I'd then turn into a Marxist or Trotskyite or whatever because one of their founders is! In fact, if/when I hear ANYTHING related to trashing Dem's (as a whole, I'm sure as hell not gonna stick up for Landrieu, Liebermann, the NJ "Democratic" Senators, et. al.) you can damn well bet I'm going to speak up and tell them there is no way we can afford to throw away our vote on a 3rd party! As the New York saying goes: "They might be bums, but they're our bums" and when we regain some control over our sorry, suffering nation then it'll be time to do something about those DINO'S -- but as for right now we need the numbers! I'll tell them for the first time in my life, without comparing the stances on issues, I'll be voting a straight Democratic ticket and exhort anyone near me to do so also because, presently, it's the only way to bring back the honor and sanity of our nation!

But it's far past time the people nationally took to the streets and I AM MARCHING!

To say 'Oh, so-and-so's a Commie' or 'they said some things I don't like so I'm just not going to join in this massive, nationwide protest against this grabbing and criminal administration' is rather like cutting off your turned-up nose to spite your face! That's acting exactly the same as the Bush administration when they won't even meet with other countries 'they don't like'.
Speak up! Speak out! Use your own diplomacy and debate with others in spoken words, not tapping out a fixed little dissertation on a keyboard!

I understand there have been marches in Washington, but many of us do not have the time &/or money to go.
What else in terms of large, organized, physical demonstrations have taken place?

My thoughts have kept turning to the metaphor of frogs in a gradually heating pan of water -- as the water slowly gets hotter & hotter, from uncomfortable to boiling, the frogs don't jump out! That, I'm beginning to believe, is what's happening to many of us (we?) Americans. The Bush administration, spaced out ever so slowly (at least slow enough for this effect!) adds bit by bit more and more outrages -- yet it appears the spines of U.S. citizens are quite strong, for the sum total never seem to reach the back's proverbial breaking point!

Oh sure there are blogs and we post, some f us a lot, but these may be just more insidious types of amelioration of the effects of boiling water.
And as for posting, it may feel like we've accomplished a decent protest, but in most cases isn't it just preaching to the choir? Some of us on occasion may put our 2 cents into RW sites, but sites who listen to us as much as we listen to the soon-to-be-tombstoned DU trolls. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, dog-nose I hear enough of their crap and lies in other parts of the web -- I'm just pointing out that's as much effect as we're really having much of the time.
Yes, blogs have had some successes in influencing news and major opinion in this country, but realistically how much compared to the tens of thousands of issues that are painstakingly dissected and disproven? How much compared to the vast efforts, passions, gathering and analysis of data and good writing by millions of bloggers/posters/commentors on the tens of thousands of issues?
What and how much is really being accomplished?

Maybe I'm totally wrong but it seems to me that we've switched to a form of protest that is far inferior to good old 'leg-work'.
In the 60's there were gatherings, marches and protests for human rights, which worked; followed by nationwide, organized action against the Vietnam war, which also worked.
There were a few public actions when the latest Iraq war started but even then they were small and unsupported by the majority, as most believed the then-unexposed lies blithely issued by this administration.

Think of the difference if the Tienanmen Square protests were relegated to still as passionate a protest, but instead on blogs and boards on the internets tubes (not saying I'm hoping it'll ever come to that)!


Don't fixate on the minutiae when the whole is so important! This version of the pen may be weaker than any other, but taking to the streets in good old-fashioned peaceful protest has definitely proved it can win.
Or are you afraid of catching the Commies cooties? Leave such minor quibbling and childishness to the right wing.
Be brave, set an example for our 'great and illustrious' politicians to follow!

It's so important to get out there! While we've been typing away these past 5 years things have been getting worse and worse, not better... it's past time to revert to supplement this possibly ineffective keyboard tapping we've indulged in to tactics that have TRULY worked in the past!

[lwcon]

130. Progressives saying not to vote for Dems isn't minutia

It's insulting to have this issue, an aggressive campaign to divert funds from the party that this board was created to support described as "minor quibbling and childishness."

Who has been saying they're afraid of standing next to Communists?

If you want to march, march. It's a free country, more or less. And if the Dems don't win in '06, you can count on it being less.

___

Hey, the liberal light is always on at the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy. Please stop by and say "hi!"

[MsMagnificent]

143. In the big picture, what's more important

joining a long-past due march based on the actions of this administration, or picking one or two of the ideas of those who are merely organizing it and on that basis denigrating or boycotting it?
I say merely organizing it because when it comes right down to it, is a march about the horrors, power-grabs, usurpations, hypocrisy, propaganda, abrogation of Human Civil Rights along with other downright criminal activities perpetrated by those psychopaths in control of this country!
Nobody says you have to follow every one of WCW's tenets in order to voice your protest!

In fact, it would give an opportunity nonpareil to argue and debate directly with the people against some of the misguided thinking of those in World Can't Wait!

What better opportunity can be given?


I do agree with you that in most contexts 'not voting for Democrats because of some of them enabling BushCo' is outrageous, wrong and completely self-defeating.
But in this context of simply marching or not marching in a wide-ranging, highly visible, physical, vocal, peaceful protest because of some of many stances by the organizers --pretty much, from what I've read, that solely with the addition of a WCW bigwig who if not a mondo communist, has definite communist leanings and the ridiculous exhortation to NOT vote Democrat-- in IMO that does fall to the level of minutia.
It's their minutia, let's relegate it to that and not let it deter us from the real big picture; while at the same time taking advantage of talking sense to those who may tend to, without really thinking about it, may agree even if because WCW are the organizers.

The lack of such type of protests may well lend many to believe that indeed Democrats truly HAVE no plan! What else does most of America see but a paltry number of short, vague, sound-bytes by the same few Democratic spokespeople? Perhaps well-meaning, but how much actually happens after such Democratic tough-talk (albeit usually no fault of their own)?
The act of organizing and marching in itself may well imply, without many detailed ideas but with pointed ACTION ALONE that there IS a plan --even to simply stress the consensus that these politico's must first be removed from their positions of power and secondly and perhaps more importantly, to confirm these people will be held responsible for their actions and that there are many passionate, determined people behind it!

Just look at the polls on how ineffective the House of Representatives is viewed by about 75% of US citizens right across across the board. Yet ALL of the House is blamed -- against the Republican majority the out-gunned, mostly impotent Democrats are still viewed as much at fault every bit as much as the GOP!
This isn't right, but it's sure the consensus in this country!


As for the "minor quibbling and childishness", that is simply my take on some of the posts -- right or wrong. Read them yourself. Is that one minor (IMO, at least in this instance) complaint enough to boycott this nationwide march altogether? Dognose I'm far from correct all the time -- but that is my take on it. And looking at it now, yes I still think that not going to this important and potentially earth-changing event --an event for the greater good knock-on-wood-- because an organizing founding member is communist is, if not childish, at least a view that is stopping them from using still more, rarely used, previously-successful options to get this country back on the right track.
To me, the 'minutia' mentioned IS very minor compared to the great good of the subject of the march -- the protest of the hypocrisy and crimes of the GW Bush administration and the Republican party's own blind march in lock, or goosestep, behind that administration and their corruption of the United States of America and our not-just-a-piece-of-paper , the Constitution!
As in a cult of personality, the Republicans have idiotically (or perhaps evilly) fallen for a dictator's assertions that it is a man (normally I'd use inclusive language here, but since there has never been a female President...) who 'protects the people', and the Constitution should protect (read: Aid, Abet & Enable) the President
instead of our Constitution protecting the people while the administration protects the Constitution!

'Afraid to stand next to a communist' is mentioned because a few have objected to attending the march because a WCW principle (yes, there may be more, but so what? I cite the same reasons). Why be against being part of a large crowd because a few there may have some personal philosophy you don't agree with? Are they infectious? Does it rub off, even if not in direct contact but irradiates those within a certain radius? Cannot one's own beliefs and yes, faith, inoculate oneself to their beliefs?
Anybody, even the most agreeable Progressives (and good old-fashioned Liberals) can join a group of like-minded people and there are going to be, somewhere in their philosophies, disagreements on certain issues. Even a group of clones are going to have areas of disagreement in their beliefs and world-view.
So should we all just dismiss every other being on earth because they don't completely agree with us in every conceivable way?


But hey -- Thanks for your permission to march :) (Not being snarky, just teasing : )
I put that in there because it certainly seemed OK for some to say they wouldn't march so I took the same freedom of declaration to explain why I would. Is that wrong? Am I not allowed?

And oh yes, I wholeheartedly agree that if the Dem's don't win back at least one of the Houses --even with our present DINO's and Republican ass-kissers in situ-- the shrinking freedoms we still have will increase. Exponentially. Which is the whole reason WHY we have a DUTY to attend this march, even with Commies and the self-defeaters who council not voting Democratic, and voice OUR truths!
SENSE has to be brought there, and if only those who completely agree with every tenet march then what are the chances of that happening?!

All, of course, just my truly humble opinion.

And I do respect yours aussi, even if it appears you want to be a tad patronizing and seem to want to blame me if the Dem's don't win in November if I do dare to march ...even though I mentioned many times I absolutely do not hold with those tenets stupidly verbalized by the WCW organizers and am more than willing to debate them and hopefully --there's that word again-- spread some realistic and common sense.


Sorry to be so verbose, but this thing has really gotten me thinking about the whole socio-political dynamic; not to mention being completely nonplussed! All respect to you and DU posters is intended throughout this entire piece and the previous one, even if some of the syntax may appear a bit hard. ...I'm just trying to understand the thoughts and feelings behind this whole thing.

[lwcon]

160. Thanks for a long and thoughtful post

I'll try to be brief this time around, myself.

1. Democrats have high standards of ethics. It's for that reason that we get this palpable frustration towards any Dems who have let themselves be bullied into voting for Bush's horrible bills.

2. I see no reason why the people who are organizing this march should get an ethical free ride, when their express agenda includes de-funding the Democratic party, diverting that money into their own coffers, and encouraging progressives not to vote. It starts sounding the old Nestle's free baby formula to third-world mothers, so they become dependent on them when the free sample runs out.

3. A big anti-Bush, anti-war march is a welcome idea. I consider it most unfortunate that it's being coordinated by a group that's specifically opposed to our party, and which is totally sketchy about what its own politics are. So I'll have mixed feelings about it, as I did about the Million Man March, which was an invigorating event for many African-Americans, but also a political-capital builder for a notorious bigot. As TMBG says, "you can't shake hands with the devil and say you're only kidding."

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[Greeby]

129. So they prefer the certainty of Repukes remaining in power

And enabling Shrubco versus the uncertainty of whether the Dems will oppose or not, yeah that makes sense. :eyes:

And how naive and deluded can you get in thinking that protests will affect this regime. They have an utter contempt for public opinion. At least the previous administrations tried to hide the atrocities they were commiting, this bunch don't care if you know or not. The only entity whose disposition might trouble them is the United States Military. Given the mood of the military, as described by Seymour Hersh, that is more likely to worry them

[geek tragedy]

131. They are our enemies and Bush's friends. They can go straight

to hell, right behind the Bushies they're helping.

[restorefreedom]

138. so they think the solution is keeping GOP in power...

that is all I can conclude from their stance.

Stomping up and down and crying "waaahhhh" isnt going to change a damn thing. Getting out the vote might.

[katinmn]

158. Some believe DC Dems and Repugs are cut from the same bolt of cloth

Considering past votes, it is hard to disagree at times.

[libnnc]

139. March. Don't give WCW any money. Vote Dem.

Problem solved.

It's not rocket science.

[Poll_Blind]

140. You got that right. Funny how some can't even get THAT. n/t

PB

[katinmn]

157. Walk and chew gum at the same time.

:)

[lisainmilo]

141. I think he is against the WHOLE world n/t

[Oak2004]

142. It seems to me that the answer (no pun intended) is to create a bona-fide

broad-based and mainstream antiwar/anti-Bush organization (or coalition of organizations) that doesn't have some other agenda, and organize national protests.

So far as I know, it seems that no such organization exists. I'd like to learn that I'm wrong.

[Zorra]

145. How stupid. Now I don't trust this organization. n/t

[mirabeau]

146. Kick.....

n/t

[inthebrain]

148. I get what they are talking about

It makes sense.

Watch the Mark Crispin Miller video.

http://www.worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2905&Itemid=223

He's saying that because the machines are rigged, why bother voting? I'll tell you right now that the Republicans plan on stealing the gubernatorial elections here in MA. They are encouraging their base to use an absentee ballot to vote.

Where did we see that before?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

161. You all sound so insecure, yes, insecure and petty

If the DFL were organizing an anti-war march, I'd attend it.

But they aren't, so I'll go with the people who are. This regime has gone too far, and even if only 5 people show up in Minneapolis to protest, I want to be one of them.

And you know what? WCW won't have machines with magic brainwashing rays to prevent the attendees from voting Dem. We'll all still have our own minds. (Imagine that!)

What are you hardcore party loyalists scared of? Why have you come from all corners of the Internet to dogpile on those of us who want to take this opportunity to express our anger? Does the appeal of the Democratic Party seem so faint and fragile that just attending a rally organized by a group that disses the Dems will turn us all into non-voting Maoists?

You remind me of fundies who don't want their children even exposed to modern biology or geology. As many have noted, the fundies don't want their children educated in science because they are insecure about their own beliefs.

Where's your confidence? Do you really believe that voters will desert you by the thousands to vote for the Revolutionary Communist Party? Do you think that Mr. and Mrs. Middle America will even know who is sponsoring the rallies if mainstream Dems don't go around yammering about it?

At the moment, you're illustrating one of the fatal flaws of the left, namely, the inability to cooperate with anyone who espouses the same goals but doesn't agree with you 100%. You know, the whole Judean People's Liberation Front versus the People's Front for the Liberation of Judea routine parodied so well by Monty Python.

May I remind you that the neocons take their allies where they can get them. If that means the fundie Protestants and the conservative Catholics (each of whom thinks the other is going to hell) working together to ban abortion or fundie Protestants and Straussians joining forces to support the invasion of Iraq, no problem for them.

Let's get some things straight. Invading and occupying a nation that didn't attack us is wrong. In fact, "waging aggressive war" is one of the things that the German and Japanese government officials were condemned for. Torturing people is wrong. It's a war crime. Shredding the Constitution is wrong. It's a slap in the face to everyone who fought to expand human rights to the whole population. Messing with election results is wrong. It makes a mockery of our system.

If the Democratic Party can't say these things with a united voice and get its voters out into the streets to protest these atrocities, then those of us who feel strongly have to temporarily ally ourselves with those who ARE organizing.

And you touchingly naive party activists can dogpile on this thread all you want. Why should I or anyone else care what you think? I'll march with whomever I feel like, and I'll vote for whomever I feel like. This year, it will be Dems.

You who are so indignant that some of us will join Communists in a march, you can either lay off or go organize your own Marxist-free march.

[lwcon]

162. Say, that's a nice straw man you got there

Some people here are disturbed that this big progressive march is also a marketing tool for a group that wants to defund Democrats. That's not a fringe issue for them -- it's prominently featured on their home page.

This isn't fear of Commie cooties, it's a legitimate grievance with the group's organizers.

What if a tobacco company were sponsoring this march, and subtly using the organizing web site to recruit young smokers? I guess your opinion is that only wimps would get addicted to cigarettes, so no harm, no foul.

About 5 zillion messages back in this thread, I made the point about the Judean People's Front. I'd say you have it backwards -- these mystery characters are trying to get progressives to split from the Democratic Party. That's some kinda solidarity, huh?

Maybe you can sell your puffed up indignance at randomshadowyprogressivesplittergroupunderground.com, because -- as far as I know -- this site is meant to support the Democratic Party.

Enjoy the march, now.
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[Lydia Leftcoast]

165. Suit yourself

I suspect that the party purists, deep down, are embarrassed, and rightly so, that the Democratic party is not organizing these kinds of grassroots activities against the worst administration in living memory. The game, as promoted by some posters here, seems to be all about promoting candidates (who may or may not agree with the Republicans on a lot of issues), and, in some states, even about sabotaging candidates who are TOO opposed to the Republicans. It's certainly not about building mass support for a vision of the future. It's a "can't see the forest (what is good for America) for the trees (candidates)" approach.

The Republicans understand the importance of mass support. That's why they've gone after the fundamentalist churches and why Rush Limbaugh is on Armed Forces Radio every day and why they've been so eater to gobble up media outlets. In the past, Democratic canddiates and party officials COULD have endorsed and attended peace marches, thus taking in and winning over those who are angry about the Iraq War--or the interventions in Central America before that or the nuclear freeze before that, but they chose not to, so they have no right to complain when others take up a cause that they're not interested in anyway.

It is not "supporting" the Democratic party to defend its having dropped the ball in this respect. If you have any influence with the national party (I don't), ask them why they're not organizing their own peace marches. If they did, I'd go on them.

But this issue is too important to worry about party affiliation or sponsorship. I vote for Democrats because they're closer to my beliefs on the issues. I will have a terrific anti-war Congressional candidate to vote for this year, as well as a good chance to help keep a Senate seat in Democratic column and to unseat a horrible Republican governor. I don't vote for Democrats "just because." I could see voting third party if the Democratic candidate were corrupt or embarrassing, but that's not an issue this year.

The issues trump the party for me, but if any of the posters on this thread would rather sit home and fume instead of making a public stand against the war when they have a chance, that's their prerogative.

[lwcon]

168. The Republicans understand the power of solidarity

On the Right, all roads lead to the GOP. You literally have to take a Republican oath to attend a political meeting or get hired to work in Iraq.

Issue-purists on the left, who don't have party loyalty, fail to understand it, and they succumb to the siren song of lefter-than-thou splitters.

Marching is fine. Failing to repudiate the anti-Democrat organizers of the event is foolhardy.

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[Lydia Leftcoast]

170. As I said, the Democrats have dropped the ball

They have only themselves to blame if their voters attend other people's marches.

[lwcon]

176. And the people who run the marches have only themselves to blame...

... if they help Repubs win this next election.

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[Katzenjammer]

178. You're being consistent, at least

You feel that Democratic voters aren't smart enough to think for themselves, and so you want to do their thinking for them. You want to keep them from hearing anything that might cause them to do something you don't think they should. That's sounds very purist to me.

It also sounds like the kind of illiberal 'liberalism' Phil Ochs wrote about.

[lwcon]

179. I'm critical of "progressives" who urge Democrats not to vote

My god, how Orwellian I am!

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[Poll_Blind]

180. Yeah but the certainty that anyone who attends these rallies is...

...somehow going to be swayed over by the darkside is, it's just unrealistic.

  And the energy you put into this "conversion by association" strikes most others reading as unnecessary stridency.

PB

[wyldwolf]

181. you give credibility to them by attending their rallies.

[Poll_Blind]

183. I'll associate with whomever I choose. Money is what gives them...

...credibility, not my attendance at a rally. Because when the rally is over and everyone goes home, how does that help them one lick if they got no donations from the Democrats who attended? How does it help them one lick if the Democrats who attended still vote (D) in November?

PB

[wyldwolf]

185. yes, I'm sure you will.

[Poll_Blind]

189. If a Loyalty Oath would make you feel more comfortable, go ahead...

...and ask for one.

PB

[wyldwolf]

191. red herring, anyone?

[Poll_Blind]

193. Well then what's your worry, eh? If we participate but give no money..

..to them and vote Democratic Party what harm does it do?

PB

[wyldwolf]

194. no worries at all

I would like to see a bit consitency on DU rule enforcement and be spared the anti-Democratic party agenda. Wasn't that my original point void of all the red herrings thrown out by a few people?

[Poll_Blind]

195. So if that is your real beef why aren't you messaging MODS instead...

...of smearing? Discussion of DU rules should be between you and the moderators or Administrators not dragged into threads.

PB

[wyldwolf]

196. show me an example of me "smearing." Again, a red herring

[Poll_Blind]

197. Shriek on....shriek on...Please don't make any more threads to...

...draw people into this one.

PB

[wyldwolf]

198. so we see. You made a statement you can't factually back up.

[Poll_Blind]

200. No, I'm just choosing to disengage. If you'd like to have a moderator...

...contact me about the merits of calling you a smearer, I'll be happy to respond directly to them with my evidence. The commentary in this thread and the thread you made to draw more people into this one pretty much stand on their own, but I'll be happy to point out choice passages to save them time.

  BTW, I'm sure we'll run into each other in another thread and agree on something. That's the beautiful mystery of DU.

:hi: Bye for now!

PB

[wyldwolf]

202. do you OFTEN make statements about people you can't factually back up?

[lwcon]

184. What seems strident to me is...

... the incessant twisting of what people critical of WCW are really saying.

I have one point and one point alone here: we should repudiate this group's goal of defunding Democratic candidates and convincing Democrats not to vote.

Maybe not everyone feels that way, but maybe or two people at democraticunderground.com think it's important that Democrats get elected.

That keeps getting twisted into "commie fear," Big Brother Liberal preventing people from marching or from hearing another points of view, loving the Iraq war, etc., etc.

However, thanks for surveying what most others reading think.

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[Poll_Blind]

188. "a group that would line every one of us up and shoot us"

Man, what the hell thread are you reading because it's not this one. I see no "incessant twisting" of ideas and merely people trying to defend themselves from sick, out of touch attacks far beyond what facts or even reasonable assumption will support:

WCW was FOUNDED by Communists. It is a front organization

for a group that would line every one of us up and shoot us if they ever came to power.

  How am I twising the above commentary into something other than what it is: Red baiting? I know, those are not your words. Your words indicate that messages like the above, and it's not the only one, don't even exist in this thread.

  I expect that you would be more tempered in your comments if you had read all the threads before making such a proclamation in defense. I can understand how a person might check into a few sub-threads and get an idea about what the thread "was about" but to make sweeping generlizations against everyone here arguing against this red baiting implies ignorance of the number of sentiments in this thread which, shrieking and unhinged like the quoted one above, are indefensible.

PB

[rinsd]

199. Awwwww are your fellow travelers getting a bad rap

:nopity:

[geek tragedy]

209. The truth is a bitch, my friend..

http://www.alternet.org/story/12128/

"I still have vivid memories of Kissinger explaining calmly to me once why, when the RCP took over, it would be necessary to shoot everyone who didn't agree with them; this is the guy who, while still actively working for such goals, reached new heights of respectability through his persistent and admittedly useful analyses of various appeals court outrages."

[Katzenjammer]

182. It looks to me as though Lydia is right, and you're a "Party purist"

Just like the Commies used to be. Whatever the leaders were saying that day, everyone better fall in line or else! No questioning whether the Party is on the right track, no questioning the leader's decisions. Close ranks. With us or against us.

Somehow that sounds familiar in another current context, too.

[lwcon]

187. So, let's see...

...a liberal criticizes a political group for telling voters not to give money to Democrats or to vote for Democrats.

I can see how that puts me on the purist fringe.

I also see how my "closing ranks" with people in my party with a crucial election just one month away makes me a splitter. I really wish I could master solidarity the way you guys have. It must be very empowering.

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[Poll_Blind]

190. "WCW was FOUNDED by Communists. It is a front organization"

"for a group that would line every one of us up and shoot us if they ever came to power." From comment 135, IIRC. Deny the reality of the commentary in the thread once the messages have been removed. Once that's done, THEN, you can assert that no such insane rhetoric was present.

But until then, people can actually check and see the level of shrieking hostility for themselves.

PB

[lwcon]

204. What does that quote have to do with me?

Complain to the person who posted it.

WCW has staked out a clearly-stated position against voting for or donating to the Democratic Party. I'll be damned if I can figure out why criticizing that on a Democratic Party support board is such a touchy subject.

I can only guess that people are heart-set on participating in this event (reflecting the noble impulse of protesting Bush's evil regime and his insane war), and they're blaming the messenger (not such a noble impulse) for giving them bad news about the organization behind the event.

Let me formally apologize now and be done with it. I'm sorry for saying anything bad about WCW's assault on yours and my political party. Don't worry, be happy.
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[geek tragedy]

218. It is a FACT that WCW was founded by C. Clark Kissinger's

Revolutionary Communist Party--a hardline Maoist group.

http://www.alternet.org/story/12128/

"I still have vivid memories of Kissinger explaining calmly to me once why, when the RCP took over, it would be necessary to shoot everyone who didn't agree with them; this is the guy who, while still actively working for such goals, reached new heights of respectability through his persistent and admittedly useful analyses of various appeals court outrages."

[Katzenjammer]

206. "I see how it makes me a splitter"

What? "Splitter"? What are you talking about? I'm saying that I agree with Lydia that you are behaving like a Party-purist trying to enforce unquestioning Party obedience.

Demanding unquestioning, at-all-costs obedience to the Party and its leaders is exactly what the Commies used to do.

Where in heaven's name do you get "splitter" out of that?

[lwcon]

207. It's one of the epithets that's been hurled at me here...

... but now I've seen the error of my ways, praise Jesus, and I see that unquestioning obedience to the shadowy WCW group makes much more sense that rallying around my party at election time on a board dedicated to its support.

Sorry to have made a fuss.

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[Katzenjammer]

208. "unquestioning obedience to the shadowy WCW group makes more sense"

You seem to have a real love affair with unquestioning obedience and false dichotomies.

[lwcon]

212. Oh, please do elaborate!

Are these terse, unsupported assaults going to be a regular feature?

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[Katzenjammer]

215. I'm just reflecting back to you what I'm seeing from you.

You're the one being the purist and demanding unquestioning obedience, not me. If you don't understand what you're doing, I'm afraid I can't help you.

[lwcon]

220. Please show me one instance where I'm demanding someone's obedience

And, do tell, why is expressing dissatisfaction that a presumed ally is specifically opposed to one's own organization the damnable height of purity?

Is a celery farmer a purist if he objects when a highly publicized new agricultural group -- and one that hides its true affiliations -- urges people to stop buying and eating celery?

Again, I realize it's wrong for me to notice or care about WCW's opposition to my party. I'm just looking for more of your free personal coaching.

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[mirabeau]

211. Those who choose....

...not to vote have only themselves to blame when the republicans remain in power and their democracy goes to sh*t.

A protest is meant to send a message to those who can make a difference. Who are you sending your message to???? Republicans?????

[katinmn]

229. At least it is a message of holding Bush accountable for many crimes

Pelosi has already said "Impeachment is off the table."

I refuse to accept that. I want Bush impeached. I want him tried for war crimes.

What he has done to innocent people, the lies, the corruption, the hurt he has caused America cannot stand.

[lwcon]

163. Missing the point

It seems a lot of posters here are taking personally the complaints about the WCW group's active campaign to divert money from the Democratic Party and discourage progressives from voting.

They seem to be hearing these concerns as a personal attack, and a condemnation of their plan to join the WCW protest. If such attacks have appeared in this thread, I've missed them.

Criticizing the agenda of the organizer's shadowy founders does not constitute a slam at Dems who choose to participate in the march.

If there is a great turnout on the march day, and it helps end this war, that will be a beautiful thing.

If it succeeds in empowering a sketchy group that seeks to factionalize progressives and keep them from the polls, well, that won't be so good.

Any chance we can agree on that?

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[wyldwolf]

169. well, this thread really brought out the freaks among us.

I actually believe supporting this organization is rules violation:


You are not permitted to use this message board to work for the defeat of the Democratic Party nominee for any political office. If you wish to work for the defeat of any Democratic candidate in any General Election, then you are welcome to use someone else's bandwidth on some other website.

Democratic Underground may not be used for political, partisan, or advocacy activity by supporters of any political party or candidate other than the Democratic Party or Democratic candidates. Supporters of certain other political parties may use Democratic Underground for limited partisan activities in political races where there is no Democratic Party candidate.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

171. Stretching things a bit, don't you think?

All of us have said that we're going to vote Dem.

What are you afraid of?

A partner in a strong marriage doesn't worry if the other partner talks to someone else, even if that "someone else" has stated that s/he doesn't believe in marriage. And if the partner does feel insecure, perhaps it's time for him/her to ask how s/he isn't meeting the other person's needs.

Let the DLC and the other mainstream Dem organizations organize an anti-war march, and I'll be there, but with stories like the prolonged torture of a 15-year-old boy coming out, the situation is too desperate to observe party niceties. Those of us who are opposed to aggressive war and torture need to speak out if we are going to be able to live with ourselves.

[wyldwolf]

172. did I say I was afraid of anything?

Did my post even imply it? No to both questions.

But supporting a group that is actively working to undermine the Democratic party is working for the defeat of Democrats... ALL Democrats. Plain and simple.

Just as I have no fear that a radical fringe candidate could win anything in this country, I have no fear that a communist front group like World Can't Wait could inflict any real damage.

But just as a matter of fact, support for them is a rule violation even more so than supporting Joe Lieberman.

Hey! I have all day to hash this out with you.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

174. No, you didn't say it, but you act threatened

:shrug:

And I don't have all day to hash this out with you. I'm a free-lance worker with two large jobs to do this week, and if I'm going to have time on Thursday morning to go protest, I have to get cracking on them. :-)

[wyldwolf]

177. because I disagree with YOU? LOL!

Right.

World Can't Wait is a pretender. A fraud. And those who support fringe kooky leftist garbage aren't reliable voters, anyway.

It is a fact that supporting something on DU that is actively seeking to undermine the Democratic party is a rules violation.

[rman]

186. Is this reason for anyone not to participate in the oct 5th mass protest?

[Poll_Blind]

192. Apparently some would think so. Not only that, but question a....

...participant's commitment to the Democratic Party. Bless the mods, most if not all of the messages are still in the thread to see with your own eyes.

PB

[rinsd]

201. No, but its a reason to withhold any money that may have gone WCW's way

[Jack Rabbit]

203. Of course. I would disagree with that strategy

I don't see WCW advocating it.

There are some things that could happen in the next month that could get me to embrace such a strategy, but I doubt they'll happen; take some exampales: anti-war candidates, such as Ned Lamont, are detained under the Military Commission Act or on trumped up charges; evidence comes to the front that Diebold machines are rigged, and the executive branch does nothing about it.

If it becomes obvious after the election that it was stolen, then that will be the time to hit the streets. The Bush regime seeks to make American government one of men, not laws; he won't have to go much further now before we would be justified in giving him what he is bargaining for. No one is going to like it, but what should the citizens of a nation do when tyrants destroy the last, most fundamewntal vestage of government at the consent of the governed?

[windbreeze]

232. I think I will march....

To my own drummer..Post #116 references what I found on the WCW site...

I understand the anger/frustration with * and the shredding of our Constitution, Bill of Rights, Geneva Conventions, and many other things, and actually, I was all gung ho about taking part in this march..until I read some things on their site, that bothered me...

After all is said and done, and after all the misunderstanding in this thread, the fact remains..we will each do what is right for us as an individual...we are grown-ups capable of making our own decisions...even though history bears out, that it is possible for us to make mistakes, and allow ourselves to be misled, even though our intentions might be entirely honorable....

Obviously there are those who won't/don't feel the same as I do..but that's okay too....if we all felt the same, it would be a damned dull world...
windbreeze