Are those who vote to authorize torture as guilty as those who actually...

[Solon]

Commit torture? If so, should they be prosecuted under international and national laws(where applicable)?

[bloom]

1. After WWII

it was the people who ordered it - at the gov't level who were held accountable - not the people who actually did it.

[TechBear_Seattle]

4. Untrue

It was at Nuremburg -- at the demand of the United States, mind you -- where the precedent was established that "just following orders" was NOT a valid defense. Those who committed crimes were punished for those crimes, even when they had been ordered by higher-up to do them.

And no matter how desperately traitors in Congress wish otherwise, torture is a crime.

[Bluerthanblue]

2. NO- they are MORE guilty, because

THEY had the power to make the use of torture something that was illegal, and would result in punishment. In effect, voting to allow torture, is encouragaing torture. And I suggest, those
who desire this option, begining with * himself, be involuntarily drafted as 'training victims'-
If torture isn't 'that bad'- and so 'vital for our safety' they shouldn't have a problem with this-


I'm so pissed I could spit blood.

[burrowowl]

15. I agree with you!

They are more guilty and should be tried, prosecuted and sentenced to life imprisonment!

[Journeyman]

3. From the play "Lenny" (based on the life of Lenny Bruce). . .

ADOLF EICHMANN (to Adolf Hitler): "Und don't blame me, you freak. I vas only following orders, but you, you vas ordering followers!

[Divine Discontent]

5. yes

even if it's not their intent, if their passing this law results in torture being done through that law, then they're responsible for it.

[AtomicKitten]

6. Absolutely.

And Democrats should take care. Although I have been accused of having infinite patience with Democrats (usually worded much more caustic), this is a deal-breaker for me.

[Solon]

9. That's one of the reasons I posted this...

and left it purposely partyless. Think about this as a being different, would you vote for a person, even though they voted yes on torture, when it is certainly possible they will see the inside of a jail cell because of it? In other words, do you sanction CRIMINAL actions?

[AtomicKitten]

11. this transcends politics

and goes to the very core of morality

good poll

[Solon]

12. I agree...

Though I, more or less, try to keep it in legalese, so to speak. The reason is that, there are plenty of things that are immoral(Bankruptcy bill comes to mind), but are also perfectly legal, or legal to make law, at least. However, this is completely different, not only is this bill immoral, but it is also a violation of several international treaties that the United States signed in good faith, treaties that are ABOVE our Constitution, by that Constitution's own words:

Article VI. - Debts, Supremacy, Oaths

All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

[Solon]

7. Damn, never seen such a unanimous vote before on here...

I mean, 24 votes so far, and 100% for choice 1.

[AtomicKitten]

8. prepare to continue to be pleasantly surprised

although I'm not :)

[karynnj]

10. Possibly far more quilty

The people who torture are being ordered to do it. IT takes great courage and sacrifice to refuse to. Last week, Senator Kerry spoke in a WSJ article of CIA officers quitting rather than be trained in these procedures.

The Senators on the other hand chose to vote that way. The downside - Bush would be mad at them. In a way I'm maddest at the 3 Senators who sold their respectability and stature to give cover to these actions. The cover is suffiently good that McCain may run on having protected the Geneva Convention.

[dflprincess]

13. Every member of Congress who voted for this has violated their oath

of office (which members of Congress swear to both verbally and in writing) and Artilce VI of the Constitution. Every last one of them should be impeached and tried for treason.

Article. VI.
...The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution...


The Oath Taken by Congress:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God."

[Vidar]

14. Just off hand, I'd say a 20 year minimum sentence might be suitable.

[burrowowl]

16. No! May they die in prison! eom

[Vidar]

18. Works for me , too.

[ddeclue]

17. Hell's having to dig new circles right now...

to make room at the bottom...

Much of what Hitler did was given legal cover too.

Doug D.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

19. Fuck each and every single one of 'em. n/t

[MODemocrat]

20. Shame on all who voted in favor of torture

Especially the Democrats who went along with George Bush. You expect that loyalty and unity between the republicans, it's like monkey-see, andmonkey-do with them. But IMHO, the democrats who voted for torture are traitors to their party.

:spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: