C-Span II Now! Specter defending Writ of Habeus Corpus...but is it for

[KoKo]

real? Specter is going through the Supreme Court's rulings against Bush. Saying this Writ goes back to 1215. Sounds like he's fighting to keep it....but I suspect he's got something ready to spring to pull a fast one.

It sounds good...BUT! Tune in if you can. I need help interpreting what is going on.`

[MrCoffee]

1. Specter / Feingold / Dorgan amendment

i think either Kerry or Kennedy signed on as well.

[sutz12]

2. Yeah, but....there is a problem...

they are positioning this as a bill against "foreign" terrorists. That's a stealth position.

The Bill of Rights never states that they apply only to citizens, only "the people." Once they legislate that foreigners have no protections, neither do we. Note the prohibition against "cruel and unusual punishment." Once again, they are saying we can use that against foreigners, but what next?

:scared:

[Freedom_from_Chains]

3. I just tuned in

Are they trying to suspend Habeus Corpus?

[sutz12]

4. I think the original bill weakens it....

I believe they are trying to amend it to restore habeus corpus.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

10. I am gathering that the question is, does Habeas Corpus

apply to foreigners.

[KoKo]

9. They seem to be debating it....A Repug Debate between Warner, Specter

and Lindsey Graham..others might be coming up. They are trying to limit the Dems "counter-debate."

It's fascinating to watch it...

[MrCoffee]

5. Specter cited a SCOTUS case that held that habeas applies to aliens.

[KoKo]

6. What I see so far is that Specter and Warner are in Disagreement...

(probably a "fake" disagreement) but Specter did comeout "strongly" in favor of Habeus. So, now they are in a debate.

Something's up...and I'll watch longer but Specter is painting himself as a DEFENDER of Habeus while Warner is staking out...Well No...Not Necessarily.

Seems to be a Legal Debate for Repugs.

Leahy, Feingold and other Dems requested TIME to Argue...and Specter said "you'll have "time depending on how the argument goes." (what the hell does that mean? How the Argument goes?"

Anyway...It's probably a sham debate, but I'll keep watching.

Lindsey Graham is up now presenting a "THIRD WAY.." or maybe he agrees with Warner. He's citing "Geneva Convention" saying Military People should make legal decisions over US JUDGES...

He's saying that he doesn't believe "Enemy Combatant" should be given rights to Habeus. It's up to the MILITARY to decide.

[MrCoffee]

8. I think Specter wants to reserve time as a puke to rebut other pukes

just my $0.02

[Joe for Clark]

7. Specter is probably genuine.

He is a moderate guy. There are a few in R party.

He is on his last legs in this life, probably - I think he intends to go out with a clean conscience. I wish I could watch. Let me know how this goes.

He is about the only republican I would give the benefit of the doubt to.

Joe

[zulchzulu]

11. Specter is a paper tiger...he'll bend in the end...don't trust him

He's proven that while he whines to Bush on an issue for a while, he bends in the end. Specter is a GOP Party man in the end... I'd like to be pleasantly surprised, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

[MrCoffee]

12. Lindsey Graham (r-Fuckstick) is a fucking fuck

hell yes we want the courts overseeing what bullshit is going on!

edited to beg pardon for the language.

[lumberjack_jeff]

14. You only used the "f" word as three parts of speech.

c'mon, you can do better. ;)

I'm not suggesting you're not absolutely right.

[KoKo]

13. OMG! "Huckleberry Graham says Rummy has Millions of dollars of Lawsuits

against him and that's why the MILITARY should be the judge and we need to suspend "Habeus" to get rid of these niggling lawsuits.

Graham comes out as the SHILL HAWK PUSHING to get RID of any LAWSUIT that would hurt Bush/Cheney/Rummy.

He says: "This is a WAR unlike ANY OTHER WAR...but Hitler wore a uniform and these people don't."

Graham is Disgusting in his protection for the Bush Criminals. I can't even quote all he said that is so abhorrent to me as a Christian and a Democrat. He is dreadful..but at least he says it OUT THERE...unlike his "parsing Warner and Specter" who are probably in agreement with him but not so McCarthyite/Fascist in their debating skills...

[KoKo]

18. Warner says that there are 18,000 Detainee's in Iraq ...How can we give

"these people" the right to Habeus? (Warner is thinking about multiple law suits that will go on in the courts forever).

IOW'D's Bush made a MESS and our Legal System CANNOT HANDLE all the HABEUS CASES...so let's just let the Military write them off and not have our American Judges have to "clog up courts" witht this crap that Bush caused. It's just too much! (that's my assessment of what Warner said in answer to Graham).

[Joe for Clark]

21. Lindsay Graham is just another asshole.

He IS part of the problem. I don't think Arlen is. What is he saying - besides produce the body.

Is he taking on the wannabe moderates here??

What is he saying exactly?

Joe

[Freedom_from_Chains]

15. Rut Roh, Are we going to learn that 9-11 was an invasion?

[Freedom_from_Chains]

16. Warner says we have 18 K detainees in Iraq. Wow.

[MrCoffee]

17. That was the dumbest "slippery slope" argument EVER!

[Freedom_from_Chains]

19. I didn't catch the argument I am just astounded that we have that

many prisoners in Iraq.

[MrCoffee]

20. "If gitmo detainees get habeas, what about the 18k in Iraq?"

[Freedom_from_Chains]

23. Got it. Thanks. n/t

[MrCoffee]

22. Specter is putting up a serious fight so far!

[KoKo]

24. Seems that Senate feels Too Many People will Sue the US if we allow

them to have "Habeus" rights! It seems that the backlog and caseload of all these things Bush/Cheney/Rummy have done would be SO OVERWHELMING it would put our Legal System in OVERLOAD. Too many Lawsuits for TOO MUCH MONEY...so let's just let the "Military" deal with it by "wiping out" all these Thousands of Detainees and making sure they don't exist.

"Sweep it Under the Rug" for "Unlawful Combatants" and let's start afresh to give a waiver to those who "detained them" so they don't spend their life fighting "Unlawful Detention Suits against our Gov't" and while we are at it let's exhonerate Bush/Rummy/Cheney for ANY WAR CRIMES or violations of Geneva Conventions...while we are at it?

I think this is what they are getting at throught he RHETORIC!

[Freedom_from_Chains]

25. To a certain degree the problem is that the face of war has changed

and we can't figure out how to deal with it. I just naturally get nervous when they start fucking around with Habeas Corpus. As I have stated in other threads that I fully expect this administration to suspend the elections if it looks like they are going to loose and can't rig enough votes to overcome it. Could this be the first step toward that end?

[KoKo]

26. Graham cites Justice O'Conner's Decision seeing a "loophole" for his

own position...in that he "thinks" that O'Connor might have felt that "Military Tribunals" are a better judge of "unlawful combatants than the US Legal System."

IMHO...Lindsey want's a Nazi style court where "Unlawful Combatants" are just processed through the "showers" in a mass and the "Military Tribunal" decides which line you go into to the GAS CHAMBERS!

I'm not exaggerating. Huckleberry Graham would have made a great SS OFFICER in NAZI GERMANY! :scared: TOO MANY PEOPLE TO PROCESS SO YOU WILL BE SPLIT INTO LINES/SEPARATED BY OUR MILITARY TRIBUNALS.. WE CANNOT AFFORD TO PROCESS YOU ALL SO GO TO THE OVENS THE GAS...WE NEED TO BE RID OF YOU AND YOUR ANNOYING RIGHTS....

[Joe for Clark]

29. Maybe

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck - -its probably a duck.

Joe

[Joe for Clark]

27. That sounds like it could be right.

I wonder out loud - If there is negligence on the part of the government - could Donald et al be looking at 23,000 american kids filing suit here?

Wrongful death, torts. Negligence as a cause of action - you know??

I sure hope some great lawyers are looking at this about now.

They need to produce the body - I don't think this is just about the detainees, is it??

Joe

[MrCoffee]

28. Kit Bond from Missouri just DEFENDED Korematsu on the floor of the

US Senate.

Words fail me.

[KoKo]

30. So far what I see is that Specter laid our a Defense to keep "Habeus" and

the rest of his Repugs are going down the LINE in the debate to show why "Habeus" Should NOT be applicable.

Specter once again carves out the "Centrist Repug" and then lets it "go down the line" on the Repug Spectrum down even to the Fundies...to find a way that HABEUS that's stood since 1215 against "King John" should now be "amended." (amended is a polite word for what these facists and folks hung on their own Petard are doing for their IRAQ INVASION CRIMES against HUMANITY.

Cover it up and move on!

[KoKo]

31. Kick...I had to leave ...and didn't get the rest of it...did anyone else

follow through?

[MrCoffee]

32. IMHO, Specter did a good job defending the constitutional application

of habeas to detainees. i know, i know. bizarro world. but it's fun to see Senate Judiciary go toe to toe with Senate Armed Services.

Right at the very end, someone said that Sen. OBAMA was coming down to the chamber to make a statement, and they immediately called for a quorum (there wasn't one) and adjourned to morning business. Obama is up now.

[KoKo]

33. yeah..he seemed to be the "Liberal Repug" put out t here to DEFEND

Habeus and all those who followed seemed to be the RIGHT of him..

Given that Specter does "Bait and Switch" this shouldn't surprise me..though.. :-(

[KoKo]

34. Is it still going on" ...The Debate... I had to cut out because of "Family

Needs"...but did they Vote,yet? Or, was it held off to tommorrow?

:shrug:

[MrCoffee]

36. OBAMA is up now and he's KICKING ASS!!!

It's not counting against the time for debate, but he's doing one hell of a job debunking ALL of the pukes arguments for this bill.

[MrCoffee]

35. Well, it was the pukes time for debate.

Dems weren't on the schedule.

[AtomicKitten]

37. Specter has a long history of a lot of hot air that sounds good

only to deflate and acquiesce to this administration's every whim. Feh.

[KoKo]

38. I know!!! How did the Debate End! I had to cut out of posting for Family.

I caught most of the earlier debate which I posted...but how did it end? What's going to happen with this Senate Amendment? :shrug:

I wish I could have stayed for the end...tried to do what I could for earlier posting of the CRUX of the ISSUES between the Three Views with some desenters "hanging on" with more "fringe views." :shrug:

HELP ...how did this end???