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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 07:19 PM
Original message
Welcome to the land of opportunity and torture!
September 21, 2006

Agreement Is Reached on Detainee Bill

By BRIAN KNOWLTON, International Herald Tribune

WASHINGTON, Sept. 21 — President Bush and three Republican senators said this afternoon that they had reached an agreement on legislation to clarify which interrogation techniques can be used against terror suspects and to establish trial procedures for those in military custody.

“We did our duty,” said Senator John W. Warner of Virginia, chairman of the Armed Services Committee, one of the three. He noted that the legislation would still need close study by both houses of Congress.

Mr. Warner and the other two rebellious Republicans, Senators John McCain of Arizona and Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, met at the White House with Stephen J. Hadley, the national security adviser, who stood behind Mr. Warner’s shoulder as the senator announced the agreement.

“It is good news and a good day for the American people,” Mr. Hadley said.

Snip...

The three senators have contended that the administration was undermining Geneva Convention protections in a way that could leave Americans vulnerable in the future, and that its plan for military tribunals of terror suspects would allow evidence obtained coercively, and information they were not allowed to see to be used against them.

more...

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/21/washington/21cnd-detain.html?hp&ex=1158897600&en=de9fcc034b5a3f71&ei=5094&partner=homepage



Lindsey Graham: accused terrorists must see evidence against them
http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/15474718.htm

Oh well!
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. This thing isn't going anywhere.It's pure government propaganda.
They simply want to get this thing "into committee" and off the front pages. Too much talk about gop rancor lately.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. That or punt to the left
And watch us rip ourselves apart right before the election.
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. Exactly how is this..
.. good news for America and the people?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. You thought there'd be NO bill??
I don't understand what people expected to happen here.

And do we have the bill yet - so there's something SPECIFIC to fight against????
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I expected them to
resist, as they stated over and over, giving Bush the opportunity to narrow the definition of torture and withhold evidence. Many have said that court martials were a model, and legal experts have weighed in about narrowing the language.

Critics warn that the administration is opening a Pandora's box.

"This is extremely dangerous terrain the president has walked upon now," says David Scheffer, director of the Center for International Human Rights at Northwestern University School of Law and former US ambassador at large for war crimes issues during the Clinton administration.

Professor Scheffer says Common Article 3 was carefully drafted to deter broad categories of potential human rights abuses. "If we take this step to narrowly define Common Article 3 crimes, it will be open season for other governments to do exactly the same thing," he says. And that, Scheffer adds, would put US troops at substantial risk whenever they serve overseas.

"Once you narrowly define what the general prohibitions in Common Article 3 cover, whatever you do not prohibit in your detailed list of prohibited activity will be assumed to be appropriate and legal," he says. "It was never the intention of the drafters of the Geneva Conventions and of Common Article 3 to be so specific in defining these crimes. That would create an enormous opportunity to gut the convention itself."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0921/p03s03-uspo.html



Likewise, Congress must not simply act to authorize the military commissions the administration has put in place. Such a move would be a disaster. The Supreme Court has already found that system to be lacking in significant ways. The justices of the Supreme Court gave Congress and the White House a road map to follow. Failure to enact sound rules will only lead to another adverse ruling from the highest court in the land.

However, that is not to say the court-martial system as outlined in the UCMJ and MCM could not or should not be modified. Indeed, some basic steps are necessary to make the system applicable in the terrorism context. Fundamentally, Congress would have to grant itself jurisdiction in order to create a legally sound system for military commissions.

The War on Terror creates a unique environment where the Military Rules of Evidence may need to be adapted in some narrow and well-defined ways — not with the sea changes the administration is proposing.

Clearly, evidence resulting from any form of coercion should not be admissible under any circumstances. More broadly, Congress must not alter with our obligation of humane treatment.

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=John+D.+Hutson%3A+Congress+must+right+a+wrong+on+treatment+of+detainees&articleId=cc20d971-27e0-4862-978d-10aa0218a83f



Also sounding alarms on Bush's legislation Thursday were the Pentagon's top uniformed lawyers. Testifying before a House panel, the service's judge advocate generals said the plan could violate treaty obligations and make U.S. troops vulnerable.

``While we seek that balance'' of fairness and security, ``we also must remember the concept of reciprocity,'' said Brig. Gen. James Walker, staff judge advocate for the Marine Corps. ``What we do and how we treat these individuals can, in the future, have a direct impact on our service men and women overseas. ``

The president's legislation would authorize the defense secretary to convene military tribunals to prosecute terrorism suspects and omit rights common in military and civil courts, such as the defendant's right to access all evidence and a ban on coerced testimony. Bush has said the plan is both fair and tough enough to ensure dangerous terrorists can be brought to justice.

Snip...

But the service's top lawyers reiterated their position that other alternatives must be explored - or the case dropped.

``I believe the accused should see that evidence,'' said Maj. Gen. Scott Black, the Army's judge advocate general.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6065810,00.html


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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. We don't know what's in the bill
I don't understand how anybody can say anyone has caved when we don't even know what's in the bill. I'm not all that hopeful mind you, but we don't know what's in the bill.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Maybe I'm interpreting these wrong
Edited on Thu Sep-21-06 08:20 PM by ProSense
From the OP article, narrowing the definition:

President Bush and three Republican senators said this afternoon that they had reached an agreement on legislation to clarify which interrogation techniques can be used against terror suspects and to establish trial procedures for those in military custody.


Allowing conviction based on unseen evidence:

The agreement contains key concessions by the White House, including dropping a provision that would have interpreted Geneva Convention obligations and another allowing a defendant to be convicted on evidence he never sees if it is classified. The legislation, however, makes clear the president has the authority to enforce the treaty.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060921/ap_on_go_co/congress_terrorism_80
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. That's really not that specific
First of all, like I've said before, I think people completely missed that the Court said there had to be legislation to clarify the legal situation for detainees and terrorists. Clarifying interrogation techniques does not mean anybody has agreed to waterboarding, for example. Establishing trial procedures does not mean habeas is gone. We've used secret evidence for some time - in fact it's kind of comical that Bonior introduced legislation to repeal the use of secret evidence back in May of 2000.

http://www.aila.org/content/default.aspx?docid=2954

I just wish we'd have some honest looks at these things that are so important to our values as well as our security.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Agree, there needs to be an honest look at
the overall issues. I don't believe that is what happened. I also don't agree with altering the language of the Convention.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. My concern is like with Patriot Act
Even when we had pretty good legislation out of the Senate - SAFE Act - we never got the left behind it because they kept lumping everything into Patriot Act. That's what worries me, there will be such a kneejerk reaction that we'll create that kind of situation again.
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