Do they really hang gay men in the streets of Iran ?

[Sam Odom]

All the while talking about human rights inside of the UN

[Greeby]

1. Yes, there have been pictures posted here

Don't ask me where, I'm sure someone will find them

[RadiDem]

2. Yup they do that in all Fundy Islamic Countries

They recently executed a female for adultry (?) in Afghanistan, the country the US 'freed' from such barbarism.

[demosincebirth]

21. Can't happen, not in muslim countries.

[No Exit]

107. Message: "However bad you think WE are, THEY are lots worse!"

That's the message of the * administration (and its wingnut welfare Mighty Wurlitzer paid media) to YOU--the message to all who have liberal leanings.

We hear it again and again. Some "average red-state citizen" is interviewed by some shill reporter, and says something like, "Those liberals and people who are (fill in the blank: speaking their minds, being gay, etc.) over here had better be darn glad they're not in (fill in the blank: Iran, Iraq, Syria, or any place that has been designated a target of hatred for us Americans), because over there they'd (fill in the blank: tear their heads off, knock down a stone wall on them, hang them, torture them, blah blah blah)."

This is propaganda at its most successful.

I don't know a lot about what they do in Iran. But I do know that what we do in this country is often nothing short of barbarism. And we are becoming more barbaric every day that the smirking chimp and satan/Cheney remain in power.

I refuse to listen to bullshit about "how bad Iran is" or "how bad Syria is" or how bad anyone-whom-we-and-our ally-Israel-want-to-plunder is.

We need to sweep around our own door before we complain about others. The original post here is alarmist bullshit. Notice there is no link to anything.

[BoneDaddy]

118. It may be propaganda

but it also happens to be true. America is not as bad as those fundamentalist theocratic dictatorships and monarchies. The correct answer to such rw drivel is to say that is the reason we are speaking up is that Amerika is moving in that direction.

[sarcasmo]

130. What makes you think it will only be the Fundy Islamic Countries.

Mark my words one day the Christians will do it too all in the name of their Santa Claus.

[Sam Odom]

3. Are women = to men in Iran

All the while talking about human rights inside of the UN

[CarlVK]

39. Are they in the US?

[Zapatero]

41. Women have more

rights in Iran than most Islamic countries. They can drive, divorce, attend university, work, vote, hold office. Doesnt sound much to us, but for an Islamic country that is the ERA. LOL

[stepnw1f]

4. Not Enough Reason to Invade Another Country

...

[Sam Odom]

5. Never said anything about an invasion

[stepnw1f]

14. No... but with all the Empasis on how

this guy is soooo bad in the media, and how we all know the right wing wants the US to attack Iran.....

[Sam Odom]

17. He is sooooo bad - Do u agree on that?

[stepnw1f]

23. No Enough to Invade Iran (nt)

[Sam Odom]

25. Who mention "invade" 1st in this thread ?

Not me

[stepnw1f]

27. good (nt)

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

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[sharp_stick]

18. He is bad

he's a fricking nutcase and shrub has us backing this nutcase into a corner.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

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[dionysus]

32. oh but it's crystal clear you want it

you wear your soul on your sleeve

[Sam Odom]

33. Can you also

give me the lotto numbers for wednesday 9/20 for california?

[TheWatcher]

121. Can you deny that you want to see Iran Nuked or Invaded?

Stop avoiding the question.

Answer it.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

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[Sam Odom]

7. I thinking about a SUBJECT now

:)

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

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[RadiDem]

Make sure not to indict the repressive Islamic theocracies bushco supports

it wouldn't be your style ;-)

[IndianaGreen]

55. Starting with Saudi Arabia

but we already control Saudi oil, so that won't do.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

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[Dr.Phool]

13. Damn! The Iranian prez learned his morals from Jerry Falwell

Pat Robertson and James Dobson.

Or that kook I was listening to on "Fresh Air" today. James Hagee.

[Sam Odom]

16. Ridiculous comparison

Robertson, Dobson or Hagee are not elected/dictator of USA nor are gays hanged in the streets of the USA by the gov't

[sharp_stick]

19. I know some repukes like Dobson

would love to see us hanging gays. I think the Iranian dictator should be the new fundie poster boy in this country, they talk the same nutjob language.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

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[Sam Odom]

26. Good job of defeating YOUR STRAW MAN

Stick to the relevant subject

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

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[Sam Odom]

31. No

read post #29

[fuzzyball]

43. Pat Robertson, Dobson et all have no power, Ahmedinejad does

That is a difference in orders of magnitude!

[and-justice-for-all]

71. They my appear to have no power.....

..But they do have lots of influence in our Government, after all those Theocratic Nationalist are Shurbs base and they do have power over their sheeples. Why do you think Gay Marriage has been an ordeal, Why do they care who people marry? Its all about control and power over people, our Government allows those Right-wing extremist to influence their decision making.

Chruch and State are suppost to be seperate for obvious reasons, who in the fuck wants to live in a Theocracy like countries in the Middle East?!

[fuzzyball]

89. you have a point but Ahmedinejad has...

BILLIONS of petro dollars, Formidable Iranian military at his command,
and the Ayatollah's backing him. He is openly after destroying Israel
and the jews, he wants to build a nuclear arsenal, which makes him
EXTREMELY dangerous. Ronertson has barely a few million, no military
to command, no nukes. I rest my case.

[Sam Odom]

92. Unfortunately IMHO

A few, VERY FEW, on DU would like to see the jews, therefore Israel, gone from the middle east.

[and-justice-for-all]

99. Regardless, I find Falwellians and Robertsons a more...

..immediate threat. Iran was never an issue until Shrub stuck his crooked global doministic nose in it and the reat of the Middle East for that matter.

[fuzzyball]

134. Falwell & Robertson are just hucksters after $$ contributions..

I am having a hard time believing Robertson will send suicide
bombers which could hurt my family shopping in a mall.
But the likes of Ahmedinejad who OPENLY want jews killed
and destroyed and who are jihadist backers, are much more
danger to my family's safety.

[and-justice-for-all]

98. If the planned Theocracy is alllowed to happen...

..Then there will be 'infidels', 'heathens' and 'abominations' as they like to say, hanging in the streets and roasted on fires....yet again.

[msongs]

24. would you like to help?

your language is incendiary.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sam Odom]

35. see post #33

[IndianaGreen]

8. Beating the war drums again?

I sure hope you enlist your ass in Bush's military!

[CarlVK]

58. It's sickening how many so called liberals are so easily duped

into the demonization process.

[The Magistrate]

65. The Defense Of Reactionary Theocrats, Sir

By persons who considxer themselves leftists, causes similar emotions in persons who take commitment to left and progressive ideals of freedom and equality seriously.

[MH1]

77. Thank you, Magistrate.

As always, well said.

[CarlVK]

79. I dont see anyone defending theocrats. I see fantasy posted for fact, Sir

And I would assume any true liberla leftist would bristle at that.

[The Magistrate]

85. What Some See, Sir

Is deliberate overlooking of clearly established facts because these are inconvenient to particular world-views.

The world is not divided into good and bad: it is divided into pretty bad and damned bad, with the latter predominating.

[No Exit]

110. Hear, hear!!

For God's sake, we need to at least think a little more deeply than freeptards think!

[Sapphocrat]

11. Here. Warning: Graphic.

"According to Iranian human rights campaigners, over 4,000 lesbians and gay men have been executed since the Ayatollahs seized power in 1979. Altogether, an estimated 100,000 Iranians have been put to death over the last 26 years of clerical rule."

— Outrage! campaigner Peter Tatchell, July 27, 2005

http://www.sodomylaws.org/world/iran/iran.htm

Mahmoud Asgari (16) and Ayaz Marhoni (18) were tortured and then hanged in Iran for being gay July 19, 2005.







The final picture on the linked page above is of the two boys' bodies hanging.

Plenty more at:
http://www.sodomylaws.org/

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

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[ShortnFiery]

28. Plus The Shah's "secret police" were even more brutal.

No, that falls on deaf ears. It's tragic but no reason to invade a sovereign nation. It's up the the Iranian people to stand up - it is THEIR country, not ours.

[The Magistrate]

36. So What, Ma'am?

Even if that were true, and acounts from the current jails suggest it may well not be, what on earth does that have to do with the fact of reactionary oppression and mis-rule by an Islamic theocracy occuring today?

[CarlVK]

60. "Even if that were true"?

I worked with Iranians who were literally being hunted by the SAVAK. One of them had his family and some others BURIED ALIVE by the Shah's SAVAK.

So let's not "even if that were true" ok?

[The Magistrate]

83. An Old R.C.P. Friend Of Mine, Sir

Arranged housing for Peoples Mujahedine sheltering here in those days. Accounts from the jails of the Islamic Republic are sufficient to establish extremities of torture take place routinely there, and there is no doubt whatever enemies of that regime are hunted by its security organs. Past a certain point, degrees of brutality are difficult to differentiate, and attempting the exercise is pretty pointless.

The point remains that what was done under the Shah has no bearing on the conduct of the present rulers of the country: it does not excuse or mitifate in any way their repressions and brutalities, or their virulently reactionary character.

[ShortnFiery]

112. Yes, because, without a doubt, Iran is a Sovereign Country!

Sir, I hope that I would not have to fully define the HARSH rule of the UNELECTED leader of Pakistan as a glaring example of hypocrisy in the application of our foreign policy directives? In fact, Dear Leader refused the mere thought of invading Pakistan and had referred to it as "a Democratic Republic" that is now Double Plus Good. :wow:

Further, with China (ya wanna talk about torture!) as our beloved trading partners, the USA has no credibility to preach to Iran (albeit I'll give you that it's not much better treatment of the people than with The Shah) how to rule Their Own Government. :shrug:

[The Magistrate]

129. How Does Any Of That, Ma'am

Bear on the attitudes of left and progressive persons to oppression by governments?

Are we to recognize as cruel misrule the acts of only some small selection of them?

Does sovereignty convey a right abuse citizens and subjects, sufficient that no one ought complain of the deeds?

If we refrain from criticizing governing regimes that are not only cruel, but openly antagonistic to every element of human rights and equality dear to progressive and left persons, how can we expect people to take seriously our complaints these ideals are not yet wholly realized in our country?

[No Exit]

111. But... how can that be??!? WE supported the Shah!!

:sarcasm:

[Sapphocrat]

29. IG, what the fuck is that supposed to mean?

YOU are telling ME to go enlist? YOU are implying I am a bushbot who WANTS to attack Iran?

What the fuck is your problem, IG? You OUGHT to know where I'm coming from by now -- and if you think I've been playing the part of some radical lefty lesbian just to troll DU for the past four years, you're pitifully mistaken.

Fuck, mate, you've always been one of my top two DU idols. I can't begin to tell you how hurt and pissed off I am at you.

You're goddamned right I care about queers being executed in Iran -- and Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan, and everywhere else in this fucking hellhole of a planet. Long after YOU get over the idea that raising consciousness about worldwide LGBT persecution is some sort of pro-war propaganda, they'll STILL be killing us -- and I will STILL jump at every chance to prove that said persecution is not a myth.

What the fuck got into you, IG?

[fuzzyball]

44. I am anxious to see IG's response to your post...but I am afraid you

have made him/her speechless.

[ruggerson]

45. Some folks here

unfortunately cling to a rigid doctrine instead of using their noggin to analyze issues individually and intellectually. Ideologues, on either side of the spectrum, are a real danger to all of us.

[IndianaGreen]

47. We are being maneuvered to get us to support war against Iran

If there anything we must have learned by now, is that the Bush dictatorship (for that's what they are!) are exploiting us to elicit a Pavlovian response; war against Iran!

May I point out that Saudi Arabia, Somalia, and even Egypt, imprison and sometimes execute people for being gay. Ultra-Orthodox Jews have thrown rocks at gays in Israel, and have even opposed the erection of a memorial in Auschwitz for LGBT Jews murdered by the Nazis! But we only hear about Iran's human rights problems while ignoring that of our "allies" including the persecution of LGBTs within or own shores.

I won't be a party to war. I reject all trappings of propaganda. I refuse to echo their shit because I know that it is all intended to get us to let them attack Iran.

Our attacks on Iran only help the Ahmadinejad government. A military strike against Iran will unify all Iranians against us, even those that hate the ayatollahs.

I won't support another Bush war under any circumstances!

[Sam Odom]

48. So anti-war people should not mention

the human rights violations inside of any Islamic nation ?

[IndianaGreen]

50. Let's start with torture-happy Bush, shall we?

As the second most famous Jew of all time once said:

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Gospel of Matthew

[Sam Odom]

51. There are dozens of threads each day about that

but when Iran abuses come up you balked. I didnt understand.

[Realityhack]

128. Partialy true, partialy off the mark.

It is true that we should 'clean our own house'. However as someone pointed out we have lots of conversations about that. We are hardly siglemindedly going after others.

In addition we are not talking about a speck in their eye and a plank in ours. Looking at the numbers it seems to me that I would rather live here than there.
Are we moving in the wrong direction? Absolutely.
Should we clean up our act? Absolutly.
Should that prevent us from critisizing others with worse problems? No. I do not think it should.

[rinsd]

131. Yeah because DU never talks about problems in the US

:eyes:

[CJCRANE]

114. We should focus on human rights abuse

in all countries and in proportion to the problem.

Focusing on Iran is disingenuous when our "allies" and many other countries have similar or worse abuses.

[ruggerson]

49. One can think that Ahmadinejad is a monstrous fuck

without wanting to go to war against him.

Many of us have the cognitive ability to differentiate between proclaiming disgust with a regime and attempting to forcibly decapitate it.

[Sapphocrat]

67. That bears repeating.

One can think that Ahmadinejad is a monstrous fuck without wanting to go to war against him.

Many of us have the cognitive ability to differentiate between proclaiming disgust with a regime and attempting to forcibly decapitate it.

Perfectly put.

[CarlVK]

69. Can you show me what "monstrous" thing he's done?

I would be eternally grateful, as I have been unsuccessful in getting one single example cited to substantiate the eye-rolling hysterics of the Ahmadinejad haters on DU. Thanks.

[ruggerson]

75. Well for starters, he's a Holocaust denier

You don't think Holocaust deniers are bigoted monsters?


"They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets," Ahmadinejad said in a speech to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan, according to a report on Wednesday from Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting.

"The West has given more significance to the myth of the genocide of the Jews, even more significant than God, religion, and the prophets," he said. "(It) deals very severely with those who deny this myth but does not do anything to those who deny God, religion, and the prophet."



http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/12/14/iran.israel/

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CarlVK]

56. BINGO! Look at all the Ahmadinejad alarmists here as proof

[Sapphocrat]

66. Maybe YOU are being maneuevered. I am not.

May I point out that I already pointed Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan among the countries that still execute gay people?

May I also ask where you got the wild idea that I support war with Iran or any other country?

Did you even read my reply to you?

If you understand nothing else, understand this: Wanting to avoid war at any cost does NOT preclude recognition of human-rights abuses in ANY country. You are implying that we should ignore the torture and execution of LGBT people when it is inconvenient to your agenda to acknowledge them.

What kind of logic is that? Ignore the slaughter of innocents in order to prevent the slaughter of innocents? Or did the millennia-old slaughter of gay people never really count in your book?

I'll rephrase my point in the hope you will get it this time: Long after this latest crisis with Iran is as distant a memory as the hostage crisis of 1979, Iran -- and Egypt, and Saudi Arabia, and Somalia, and all the rest -- will still be killing queers.

You may call the worldwide slaughter of gay people propaganda. You may find it an inconvenient truth. Call it whatever you want, but it is reality, and the most vehement anti-war sentiment -- which I SHARE WITH YOU, goddamnit! -- is NOT going to change that.

I still don't get you, IG. I have never seen such a knee-jerk reaction from you, and I certainly didn't deserve that "go enlist" slap in the face.

Well, if nothing else, at least I know you have no intention of taking back that slap.

I really had more faith in you than this.

[IndianaGreen]

72. Forgive me if I am edgy, but we have been through this shit before

Most Iranians are not like Ahmadinejad, but it will be them not him, who will suffer the most in a US-Israel attack on Iran.

All the countries in the Middle East are human rights abusers, from Saudi Arabia to Egypt and Israel. We are in the middle of a great propaganda war being waged to get the American people to hate Iran and to acquiesce to a war on that country. We must not allow ourselves to become unwilling pawns in the rush to war.

If you are concerned about human rights in the Middle East, you must mention all the countries in the region, for they are all violators to one extent or another. To join the prowar propagandists in the war drums, no matter how well intended, plays into their hands.

According to the Lancet Report, over 100,000 Iraqi civilians have died as the result of US bombings and military operations in Iraq. I don't want to see the same thing happen in Iran, or Syria, or in Venezuela, to name but a few of the countries that Bush has labeled as evil doers.

[Sapphocrat]

94. I DO recognize that, IG...

I won't resort to "Some of my best friends are..." but I will say that Persians (specifically, naturalized American-Iranians) are not some abstract concept to me. We've worked together. We've shared many meals. I've been accorded the "I can get it for you wholesale" equivalent when I've needed freon for my car, and the brother of a friend of a friend works for a garage. I've asked (albeit treading ever so lightly) about our respective nations' differences.

Bottom line: "Most Iranians" -- both in the U.S. and abroad -- are most definitely not "like that," and harbor as much ill will toward the "average" American as any "average" Iraqi did before we destroyed the Cradle of Civilization.

So my take is not rhetoric. I really do know this.

OK, I give you: I should mention all countries in the ME. They are indeed all violators. Theocracies, as a rule, kill gay people.

But don't you ever again lump me in with the "prowar propagandists (beating) the war drums," IG. Deal?

I don't want to see the same thing happen in Iran, or Syria, or Venezuela, or North Korea, or (insert country of your choice here). There is no reason for war, ever.

And that's the only thing I see in black and white.

P.S. Ironically, the only ME country I perceive as progressive in the LGBT battle is Israel. All else (including the recent anti-pride movement in Jerusalem) aside, Israel is the lone island of sanity in the ME, as far as LGBTs are concerned.

[IndianaGreen]

97. Deal n/t

:hug:

[CJCRANE]

125. You summed it up

:thumbsup:

[cali]

100. If you can't discern

between legitimate criticism over human rights abuses and beating the drums of war, you really have a problem. One can, and should speak up against such things as the murderous campaign against gays and lesbians in Iran, AND speak out against any possible American attack against that country. Honestly, it's not terribly difficult.

I find your post sadly morally bankrupt.

[Realityhack]

20. That is NOT a Small number! n/t

[Puglover]

102. Everytime I see these

photos it makes me physically ill. The terror on those boys faces is gut wrenching. Jesus, the world is so completely fucked up.

[Zodiak]

119. That is terribly sad

That those poor boys were killed for their sexual orientation.

Read the rest of the linked page, fellow DUers; human right violations such as these are certainly not unique to the middle east. There is one link on the page that had a Dutch minister who wants to deport Iranian gays to....Iran. Damn, the hatred of gays is as pervasive as it is stupid.

But it is not a reason to go to war.

Edit: changed "had to die" to "were killed" because ultimately these boys did NOT have to die.

Ahmedindajabob (sp) is a turd, that is for sure, but he is not a turd because he seeks a nuclear weapon or that he has called for the death of Israel (both issues are debatable). It is because of human rights violations like these.

And for the record, I do not know of anyone on DU who thinks he is a good guy. There is no defense of the Iranian leader; there is only a serious attempt to discern what is true and what is false.

[slackmaster]

37. Only the ones they catch

:eyes:

[CarlVK]

38. They do in Laramie, Wyoming!

[Sam Odom]

40. The gov't did not

some fucked up people did and they were brought to 'justice'

how does that compare to Iran ?

[CarlVK]

53. Please show me where Iranian law says to hang gays in the streets.

thank you.

[The Magistrate]

61. Look Into Shiara Law On The Subject, Sir

It quite mimics the familiar lines of Leviticus.

This sort of thing is tedious. It is done by the government of the Islamic Republic of Iraq roughly every other day on average. It is quite routine.

And note the key distinction: it is done by the government, not by private persons, who are then treated as criminals by the government.

[CarlVK]

63. That's "Shi'a" law - or do you mean Shari'a?

Neither say to hang gays in the streets. Would you like to try again, Sir?

[The Magistrate]

64. Then You Will Be Aware The Death Penalty Is Called For, Sir

That the executions take place is a fact. If that is inconvenient to your political view, that the least of the difficulties many have with the practice.

[CarlVK]

68. Not in Iran, Sir.

Unless you can show me a statute that says otherwise.

[Sapphocrat]

74. I got your statutes right here.

Since the 1979 Iranian revolution, the legal code has been based on a conservative interpretation of Islamic Shari'a law. All sexual relations that occur outside of a traditional, heterosexual marriage (i.e. sodomy or adultery) are illegal and no legal distinction is made between consensual or non-consensual sexual activity. Homosexual relations that occur between consenting adults in private are a crime and carry a maximum punishment of death. Teenage boys as young as fifteen are eligible for the death penalty (see Mahmoud Asgari and Ayaz Marhoni). Approved by the Islamic Republic Parliament on 30/7/1991 and finally ratified by the High Expediency Council on 28/11/1991, articles 108 through 140 distinctly talk about homosexuality and its punishments in detail:

Male Homosexuality: Sodomy is a crime for which both partners are punished. The punishment is death if the participants are adults, of sound mind and consenting; the method of execution is for the Shari'a judge to decide. A non-adult who engages in consensual sodomy is subject to a punishment of 74 lashes. (Articles 108 to 113) Sodomy is proved either if a person confesses four times to having committed sodomy or by the testimony of four righteous men. Testimony of women alone or together with a man does not prove sodomy. (Articles 114 to 119). "Tafhiz" (the rubbing of the thighs or buttocks) and the like committed by two men is punished by 100 lashes. On the fourth occasion, the punishment is death. (Articles 121 and 122). If two men "stand naked under one cover without any necessity", both are punished with up to 99 lashes; if a man "kisses another with lust" the punishment is 60 lashes. (Articles 123 and 124). If sodomy, or the lesser crimes referred to above, are proved by confession, and the person concerned repents, the Shari'a judge may request that he be pardoned. If a person who has committed the lesser crimes referred to above repents before the giving of testimony by the witnesses, the punishment is quashed. (Articles 125 and 126).

Female Homosexuality: The punishment for female homosexuality involving persons who are mature, of sound mind, and consenting, is 100 lashes. If the act is repeated three times and punishment is enforced each time, the death sentence will apply on the fourth occasion. (Articles 127, 129, 130) The ways of proving lesbianism in court are the same as for male homosexuality. (Article 128) Non-Moslem and Moslem alike are subject to punishment (Article 130) The rules for the quashing of sentences, or for pardoning, are the same as for the lesser male homosexual offences (Articles 132 and 133) Women who "stand naked under one cover without necessity" and are not relatives are punished by up to 100 lashes. (Article 134)

More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Iran

Satisfied? Or do you want sworn affidavits from dead gay Iranians?

Google, by the way, would save you a lot of wasted pixels (and The Magistrate a lot of wasted time).

[ruggerson]

76. Well, CarlVK, what is your answer to Sappho's post?

Huh?

[CarlVK]

82. thanks. I was right then.....

"the method of execution is for the Shari'a judge to decide. A non-adult who engages in consensual sodomy is subject to a punishment of 74 lashes. (Articles 108 to 113) Sodomy is proved either if a person confesses four times to having committed sodomy or by the testimony of four righteous men. Testimony of women alone or together with a man does not prove sodomy. (Articles 114 to 119). "Tafhiz" (the rubbing of the thighs or buttocks) and the like committed by two men is punished by 100 lashes. On the fourth occasion, the punishment is death. (Articles 121 and 122). "

as you can see, Iranian law does not provide that all hojmoexuals be hung in the street.

[Sapphocrat]

90. So I guess you are unfamiliar with the phrase "splitting hairs".

Yes, Carl, the method of execution is for the Shari'a judge to decide. And the judge in the case of Mahmoud Asgari and Ayaz Marhoni decided that hanging the two teenagers (ages 18 and 16-17, respectively) was the appropriate method of execution.

Iranian law does indeed provide that homosexuals be hung in the street. Not all homosexuals, as per your gossamer-thin, hairsplitting criterion, but hanging in the street is indeed provided for.

What's your next challenge, Carl? That no one can prove any homosexual was ever burnt at the stake during the Inquisition because not all homosexuals were burnt at the stake?

[cali]

101. Such intellectual

dishonesty as featured in your post, is absolutely breathtaking. I'm embarassed for you, since you seem incapable of seeing your own bullshit.

[The Magistrate]

78. A Good Laigh On A Long Night Is Always Appreciated, Sir

The people are in fact hanged, by government agency, according to the law of the place, and a rate of several each week over the life of that government. Religious dissenters, such as Ba'hais, are also hanged, as are prostitutes.

"Even in an Eden such as this, wrongs sometimes occur."

[Cameron27]

81. Very well stated Magistrate

:thumbsup:

[CarlVK]

84. Actually, no. See my response to Sappho. The laugh is on Thee.

[ruggerson]

86. No Bub, it ain't

And the fact that you are playing word games to make light of the deadly serious facts about Iranian murders of gays and lesbian shows your character in neon colors.

You are reprehensible.

[The Magistrate]

87. He Will Not Be Able To Reply, Sir

Being no longer among us....

[Sapphocrat]

91. Ah, but, Sir...

They always read on, after death. They always come back. Like some mute, bleeding thing from a Stephen King-George Romero collaboration... They Always Come Back.

My compliments, by the way, for your concise and bloody-well-dead-on responses in this thread. I thank you.

[ruggerson]

93. Thanks Magistrate

Your remarks tonight were quite eloquent. As usual.

[cherokeeprogressive]

95. How do you misunderstand these words? Are you daft?

"Sodomy is a crime for which both partners are punished. The punishment is death if the participants are adults, of sound mind and consenting; the method of execution is for the Shari'a judge to decide"

(can you hear the laughter? laughing AT you, not with you?)

[rockymountaindem]

96. As far as the people who say "nobody supports Ahmadenijad"

Well, maybe nobody actually says that, but man some people on this thread are going to great lengths to make Ahmadenijad seem better than he really is. Are they doing it because they actually believe that Iran doesn't hang homosexuals in the street, or because having tried to make him look like some anti-Bush (and therefore pro-freedom) acolyte, they feel staked to their position?

Either way... there's no defense for Ahmadenijad or his brutal, repressive regime.

[treestar]

105. Are you so sure sir, because even the gay press says it "might"

have been -

http://ec.gayalliance.org/articles/001382.shtml

November 17, 2005

Gay group calls for investigation of Iran executions
by Susan Jordan

(New York, November 16, 2005) With new reports from Iran that two young men who were hung in public this week may have been executed by the government because of their sexual orientation, the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission (IGLRHC) renewed its call today for UN human rights experts to investigate such cases and demanded that Iran’s government be held accountable for any violation of human rights laws.

Reports of these recent public executions follow a separate report of a young man being hanged in northern Iran last week. IGLHRC is also following up on information circulating that a total of 92 hangings and death sentences have taken place in that country within the past four and a half months alone.

“We are alarmed at these latest hangings and call for an immediate investigation by the UN and national human rights monitors,” stated Paula Ettelbrick, executive director of IGLHRC. “It’s clear that a pattern is emerging in which young men are executed as couples and that the crimes they allegedly committed always involve some form of sexual assault of another male.”

Public executions, in and of themselves, are considered to be cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment under international law. IGLHRC has long documented specific conditions in Iran involving clear violations of human rights law.

“When the first reported executions came to our attention in July, it was nearly impossible to determine whether the two men were executed because of their sexual orientation,” continued Ettelbrick. “But this pattern that we have identified, along with the extraordinary increase of public death sentences being carried out under this new government, require a response not just from the global LGBT community but from all human rights advocates.”

IGLHRC is joining with Al-Fatiha, the international LGBT Muslim organization, in its call for European governments and to seek further details on these recent executions and in its support for a resolution from Canada introduced in the UN expressing concerns over human rights violations in Iran.

IGLHRC will also continue to strategize with Al-Fatiha, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the International Lesbian and Gay Association, and other human rights groups on how to move world and opinion leaders and international human rights experts to demand of Iran that it honor its commitments under international law to suspend use of the death penalty.

The International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission (IGLHRC) is the only human rights organization solely devoted to improving the rights of people around the world who are targeted for imprisonment, abuse or murder because of their sexuality, gender identity or HIV status. IGLHRC addresses human rights violations by partnering with and supporting activists on the ground in countries around the world, by monitoring and documenting abuses, by engaging offending governments, and by educating international human rights officials. A US-based non-profit, non-governmental organization, IGLHRC is based in New York, with offices in San Francisco and Buenos Aires. http://www.iglhrc.org.

[The Magistrate]

117. More Than Sufficiently Sure For Political Work, Sir

That a professional group wishes to nail down every jot of certainty is understandable, and laudable, but the pattern, taken with the laws in force, is sufficient for agitation as the matter stands.

The problem with the line of attempting denial of this, or otherwise engaging in apologias for it, is the great discredit it brings on the left in domestic politics. When the left presses for homosexuals to have the same rights as anyone else in this country, and denounces violence and discrimination against homosexuals in this country, yet simultaneously refrains from denouncing the criminalization of homosexuality, to the point of imposing capital punishment on homosexuals, elsewhere, and when there are even loud voices raised in some left quarters demanding that the thing be overlooked, or even denying that it is a practice at all when it plainly is, a great many people will conclude from the spectacle that we are simply hypocrites, who care in fact nothing for the rights of homosexuals, but simply are engaged in criticizing the United States on any conceivable ground we can contrive. The dynamic applies to any number of issues, from the status of women to the violation of the laws of war, and often enough, unfortunately, presents the same sorry spectacle: behaviors and practices as bad or even far worse than are found in the United States are not criticized, and are even the subject of loud apologias, while the practice in or of the United States is denounced as the acme of wrong. People outside leftist circles do notice this, and there are persons whose business it is to point it out to them into the bargain. It is one of the leading reasons the left can find so little mass political traction when it comes election season.

[ruggerson]

46. Are you gay?

Because you shouldn't go around using Matthew Shephard's tragic murder by two lowlife scumbags as a point to compare with a brutal regime that employs the full force of the government to systematically torture and wipe out a population of human beings.

[CarlVK]

52. Is that any of your business?

[Sam Odom]

54. Self Delete

[CarlVK]

57. I asked why its your business? Can you stick to that?

[ruggerson]

59. Yeah it's my fucking business

because Mathew Shephard symbolically meant a great deal to a lot of gay people and you shouldn't be using his death as a pawn in your mind numbingly stupid arguments defending monstrous DICTATORS.

[CarlVK]

62. No, actually it's not.

And you are showing that you much closer to the likes of the Iranian Shiite fanatics than you want to think, if you feel that my sexual orientation is somehow a mandated open book to your political agenda.

[ruggerson]

70. So asking if someone's gay

when they've just misused a gay bashing victim to politically defend a terrorist regime is now something that only Shiite fanatics do?

In addition to misusing Matthew Shephard's memory (let's hope his parents aren't reading your drivel), you obviously know jack shit about what it means to be gay and living under constant fire from fundamentalist whackjobs.

[ruggerson]

42. Great point

and the people here who support this monster and his government are giving moral support to a regime that wantonly murders innocent gays and lesbians.

How progressive!

[wiley]

73. They do it here, too

Sorry, but Muslim "law" sucks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOh0isJQBwk

[ComerPerro]

88. The Talibornagains here would like to, trust me

[treestar]

103. If true, again proving that the fundies in the US are envious of their

Muslim equivalents for having such power.

[KitSileya]

113. Don't Iran and the US, in fact, cooperate

when it comes to hindering international efforts to help LGBT people?

Fact is, the international community has a wide range of means, both carrot and stick, with which to pressure nations that consistently flout human rights, and we should bring those means to bear on Iran and other nations that kill, torture, or hurt their citizens, regardless of the reason. Iran is worse than many others because they still use the death penalty, and for offenses no reasonable human being would agree is an offense. Recognizing that doesn't mean we are advocating an invasion of Iran, but diplomatic options and trade pressure are possibilities. Looking at one's own doorstep, the US doesn't protect LGBT people very well either, for example, even if they're light years ahead of many Islamic nations.

[enough already]

104. You need to stop listening to Bush and Rove

They will say and do anything to justify a war and get at Iran's oil.

[cali]

106. What a lackluster response

That there is real and heinous persecution of gays and lesbians in Iran, doesn't justify an invasion of the country. But it doesn't mean we should pretend it isn't happening.

[CJCRANE]

115. Exactly,

did they give a shit about Rwanda, the Congo, the LRA in Uganda?

Or the other wars and abuses going on all over the world?

No, of course not. If the oil was in India they would be demonizing Hindus right now.

[Realityhack]

123. So?

So what if THEY didn't care and are only selectively interested in this case due to oil. That doesn't mean that the abuse does not take place, nor does it mean we should suddenly become silent on the abuse.

Admiting that there is indeed abuse in a country is NOT equivelent to 'listening to Bush' nor is it a call for an attack on the country or an agreement that an attack would be ok. It is just admiting to a fact. Iran is abusive in X way. Thats all.

And IMO if we loose site of that because we don't like how * is spinning that fact we are giving up our own integrety.

[CJCRANE]

124. IMO

it is important. We can agree that there are problems in Iran.

However the reason we are being bombarded with anti-muslim news 24/7 is to soften us up for the next war. It's important to point out that context. Because in geopolitical terms we have to get our priorities straight.

Remember just three years ago when we were told that Saddam was the worst dictator on the planet and he had WMDs that could be launched in 45 minutes? It turned out to be bullshit, and not only that but B*shco dropped the ball on al-Qaeda, North Korea (and to a certain extent Iran). Al-Qaeda and North Korea were much bigger priorities and I'm pretty p*ssed off that B*shco let them off the hook simply due to greed for oil.

I don't trust the neocons' agenda one inch, even if they do site human rights. Let's just look at what's happened to Iraq...a mishmash of sectarian, fundamentalist and terrorist forces slugging it out. All because of nonexistant WMDs and a false connection to 9/11.

So, if you're concerned in Iran, there's nothing wrong with that. A good first step would be to join Amnesty International.

On edit: call me selfish but I'm more concerned about my own human rights and those of the coalition troops stuck in Iraq or returning home with limbs or faculties missing. Iran can wait.

[Realityhack]

126. Ok.

I understand what you are getting at. I think we basicaly agree. I don't think we should forget that there are plenty of places just as bad.

I just think that the post 'you have to stop listening to bush' was crossing from ignoring the context all the way to ignoring the abuses existince.

I don't think we should ignore either.

[Realityhack]

122. Logical Falicy.

Some things Bush says are 100% made up propoganda
Therefore
All things Bush says are 100% made up propoganda

Thats a logical falicy.
Iran is indeed quite horrible in many ways and claiming otherwise is not being intelectualy honest. Should we start a war over their human rights abuses? Thats a legitimate debateable question (and I would say No) but I do not think there is any legitimate question as to wither they do indeed do a lot of terrible things.

[ACK]

108. Why yes they do and just because I hate the administration

Or any kind of idea we should go to war with Iran does NOT mean that I will sugar-coat this or hold up Iran's theocracy as a model of greatness for being in-your-face with the administration.

The biggest threat we face to western civilization is not just Islamic based terrorism. It is instead fundamentalism of all kinds.

Christian terrorists shoot doctors, and blow up clinics and gay bars here in the USA.

A Jewish fundamentalist shot the PM of Israel on the edge of peace, remember that?

And of course yes Islamic terrorists/thugs kill nuns and blow up soldiers handing candy out to kids.

Fundamentalism of all kinds - that is the real danger.

[CJCRANE]

116. Exactly

and that's why it's scary that the majority of people who are demonizing Islam are RW christians. Their aim is simply to replace islamic fundamentalism with christian fundamentalism.

In actual fact islamic fundamentalism will only get stronger if attacked directly by christians.

The policy of promoting human rights and international law is a much better way of winning hearts and minds in the muslim world.

[Realityhack]

127. Ding.

Very well said (to both of you).

It is high time we re-evaluated our forien policy (all of it including trade) based on things like human rights, and prgress made on human rights.

We sleep with the most horrible monsters in exchange for short term gain. And then when it comes back to haunt us we act all shocked and supprised.

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

133. I find many of the responses here nothing short of amazing

It isn't propaganda to truthfully report what Iran is doing. We didn't make them murder those gays. We didn't make them do so publicly so the pictures exist. They did those things. I don't think they should be invaded for this, nor do I think they are the only country behaving this way, but I'll be damned if I am going to remain silent about the likes of this simply because they are on Bush's current enemies list.