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How tight is your foil? (Warning: Pope/Bush conspiracy theory within)

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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:49 PM
Original message
How tight is your foil? (Warning: Pope/Bush conspiracy theory within)
Okay, so Il Papum pisses off all of Islam. A nun gets offed. Effigies of the popester get burned. Lotsa talk about the crusades and infidels and hatred and killings and conquest. Its like its the 1400s all over again.

And let's not forget that ol' Pope Ratzy endorsed Caligula in the last go-round.

Anyway, so the pontificating pontif sets the world aflame. This makes the Islamist extremists and even the more sane followers of Abraham look all wild eyed and hateful and crazy and .... scary.

This in turn fires up our own internal religiously insane. Soon enough even sane Catholics get involved in the scare (what else can a fatwah on popiepoo cause, yanno?). Soon enough, even the antipope guys like the evangelicals get all bent out of shape .... he's another Christian, after all.

And voila ..... the populace of sheeple get all stirred up and go vote for the 'guys that'll keep ya safe and not appease the terrorists'.

Am I off my rocker?

Accident?

Coinkydink?

Conspiracy?

Possible?

Plausible?

What do you think?
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. It already crossed my mind, H2S.
Edited on Mon Sep-18-06 09:54 PM by grasswire
That's the thing about the Bushies. The lowest, most heinous thing you can think they might do is always outdone by them! You cannot underestimate them in terms of despotic, dirty acts. They always go lower.

And so, yes, I had already concluded that a war between cultures will serve them very well. It is one of the aces they hold. I won't tell you what I think the others are.
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niallmac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. Anyone can generate fear and hate.
These are hot wired emotions in our survival makeup.
Hope, understanding, forgiveness, humility and respect
are things a person could get crucified for if not careful.

I think it seems like a conspiracy because almost anything anyone does
supports the Rovian fear card.

It takes real genius and commitment to peace
to take the crowd in the opposite direction.
Doesn't seem fair somehow.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
3. do I recall....
the BFEE lobbying for this guy to be poped? And, some other nagging connections...ah well, the truth is so much harder to discern these days...
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I don't recall that ......
.... to be sure, I don't follow popienewz, but I'm sure I'd have heard if the BFEE was gonna pop 'im.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. no ...poped not popped...
he was their paisan...
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windbreeze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
19. Hey, aren't they all one big loving family from way back
say...like during the second WW when grandpappy was consorting with...and ratzinger was one of...seems like I recall something along those lines....
windbreeze
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. Unfortunately, I wondered if the two of them were in cahoots too.
Makes perfect sense...piss off the Muslims...wratchet up the terror and wallah we need bush* to protect us from all those nasty elements.

Don't even need my tin foil hat for that scenario.
For the record...I think it's true. Otherwise how could an intelligent man have made such an inflammatory comment. He knew what he was doing
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pooja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
6. Seeing how the Powers of the World fund both the Pope and
fundy islamists, I am assuming it is a push to get into world war III. Israel and Lebanon didn't work because of the call for Peace. Its just more b.s. on a b.s. meter.
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
7. "the third awakening"? was mentioned right before with the pResident
The timing of the two statements was not a coincidence. * statement was prepared to play to the base as was the pope's was to coincide with his.
Remember the election when the church at high level got involved with Kerry and the timing of that?
That was blatant as was this as far as I'm concerned as was this.
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
8. That's what's happening, no conspiracy necessary.
The pope and chimp don't need to be in cahoots for the escalating situation you described to occur at all. We are in danger of it right now. Now how would it screw the Dems? well, you put in some well placed really intolerant shitty "atheists" to convince members of the believing majority that they have no place in the left. You have folks from the left and right hammer religious liberals and moderates, making the only safe place the evengelical right. This kind of religious manipulation isn't beyond the republicans at all.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
9. Not plausible.
Having just come off a long discussion with an evangelical acquaintance, here's where your theory went wrong:

"even the antipope guys like the evangelicals get all bent out of shape .... he's another Christian, after all."

That will never happen. The Pope is not worth their time - he hasn't gone through their "I accept Jesus as my Lord" ritual and so he's a non-believer and won't be going to heaven with them (I kid you not - she and I had a debate over why Mother Theresa wouldn't/would have gone to heaven). Being another Christian means nothing to them. The Pope is not their friend, he's not worth their efforts in their sick, twisted view of the world.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Okay .... how about this .... ?
They care nothing about the pope getting a fatwa on his ass. But ... might they not also see Christianity in general being under attack (them Islam guys have been indiscriinate in attcking 'Christians', lumping everyone togehter as 'infidels') and feel some need to circle their fucked up wagons?
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
10. not 1400s, try 1000s, plus...
First Crusade: 1095, preached by Pope Urban
Second Crusade:1147, preached by St. Bernard
Third Crusade: 1187, after Saladin captures Jerusalem
Albigensian Crusade: 1208-1223, Europe kills its own
1291: Acre falls to Muslims, end of Crusades to ME
1492: Spanish kings expel Moors from Granada and Jews from Spain, end of the Reconquista


Sorry, Medieval Studies person here.
history geek /off
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I stand corrected
non medieval history geek here. :) (obviously!)
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. 4th Crusade destroys Constantiople, a city of Orthodox Christians, not Mus
not Muslims

(I remember how stunned I was to learn that one crusade really was against non-RomanCatholic Christians, NOT Muslims!!!)

http://www.roman-empire.net/constant/1203-1204.html


Background of the Fourth Crusade
In the years from 1201 to 1202 the Fourth Crusade, sanctioned by pope Innocent III, was readying itself to set out to conquer Egypt, which was by then the center of Islamic power.
After initial problems, finally Boniface, the Marquis of Monferrat was decided as the leader of the campaign.
But right from the beginning the Crusade was beset by fundamental problems. The main problem was that of transport. To carry a crusading army of tens of thousands to Egypt a substantial fleet was required.

....

As a their contribution to the 'holy' efforts of the Crusade the Venetians further agreed to provide fifty armed war galleys as an escort to the fleet. But as a condition of this they shoudl receive half of any conquest that should be made by the Crusaders.
The conditions were steep, and yet no where else in Europe could the Crusaders hope to find a seafaring power capable of shipping them to Egypt.


The Crusade falls into Debt

....


The Plan to attack Constantinople is hatched
Meanwhile the situation of the crusaders had not much improved. That half of the loot which they had made with the sack of Zara still was not enough to repay the outstanding debt of 34'000 marks to the Venetians. In fact, most of their spoils was spent on buying food for themselves throughout their winter stay in the conquered city.

....

Doge Dandolo also had his reasons for wanting to see the Crusade's planned attack on Egypt diverted. For in the spring of 1202, behind the back of the crusaders, Venice negotiated a trade agreement with al-Adil, the Sultan of Egypt. This deal granted the Venetians enormous privileges of trade with the Egyptians and therefore with the trade route of the Red Sea to India.


Also, the ancient city of Constantinople was the main obstacle to prevent Venice from rising to dominate the trade of the Mediterranean Sea. ...

....

And so it was that the embittered Doge Dandolo and the desperate Boniface now hatched a plan by which they could redirect the Crusade to Constantinople.
The pawn in their schemes was the young Alexius Angelus (Alexius IV) who promised to pay them 200'000 marks if they would install him on the throne of Constantinople. Also Alexius promised to provide an army of 10'000 men to the Crusade, once he was on the throne of the Byzantine empire.
The desperate crusaders needed not be made such an offer twice. At once they agreed to the plan.
As a excuse for such an attack on what was the greatest Christian city of its day, the crusaders sited that they would act to restore the eastern Christian empire to Rome, crushing the Orthodox church which the pope deemed a heresy.

....

The crusaders awoke the next day, 13 April 1204, expecting the fighting to continue, only to find that they were in control of the city. There was no opposition. The city surrendered.


The Sack of Constantinople
Thus began the sack of Constantinople, the richest city of all Europe. Nobody controlled the troops. Thousands of defenseless civilians were killed. Women, even nuns, were raped by the crusading army and churches, monasteries and convents were looted. The very altars of churches were smashed and torn to pieces for their gold and marble by warriors who had sworn to fight in service of the Christian faith.

Even the magnificent Santa Sophia was ransacked by the crusaders. Works of tremendous value were destroyed merely for their material value. One such work was the bronze statue of Hercules, created by the famous Lysippus, court sculptor of no lesser than Alexander the Great. The statue was melted down for its bronze. It is but one of a mass of bronze artworks which was melted down by those blinded by greed.
The loss of art treasures the world suffered in the sack of Constantinople is immeasurable.

....

This left the republic of Venice in triumph. Their greatest rival in the Mediterranean was smashed, led by a ruler who would be of no danger to their aspirations of dominating maritime trade. They had successfully diverted the Crusade from attacking Egypt with whom they had signed a lucrative trade agreement. And now many artworks and religious relics would be taken back home to adorned their own great city. Their old, blind Doge, already in his eighties, had served them well.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
13. I'd prefer to think it was a blunder
A leader of middling ability gets a big head and shoots off his mouth. We've seen it before, and we see it with maddening regularity with Li'l Boots.

I think that's what has happened here with Benedict's malediction. He tried to "provoke a dialog", and now he's likewise blundering his way through half-assed apologies.

There is no plan to this, no more than there was a plan to plunge Europe into WWI through the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand. Politics has arranged the world into a series of clusterfucks for the past two centuries. The most trivial acts of stupidity are all that are required to ignite worldwide conflagrations.

OUR problem in the West vis-à-vis Islamic culture is that we -- Bush, the Pope, and most of us -- look at the Muslim world as being monolithic with its actions determined by the violent extremists alone. The reality is that it's as diverse a culture as ours. The extremists have gotten most of the attention, which has led to them taking the upper hand; so it would make sense for us to court the rest of the "Islamic street" -- no?

Well, by thinking that all Muslims are alike, we've elevated the incendiaries to a position they don't deserve. And once again, we're creating our enemies out of our fears, building their armies one gun at a time, forging the barrels in the smithy of our own ignorance.

And a couple of days ago, the Pope made a big honkin' down payment on even more extremism. I'm not sure it was a Gavrilo Prinzip moment, but it was dumb, dumb, dumb.

We could turn it around. We could, we should, and we're fools to let the stupidity continue. But if we do suck it up and change course, a lot of people will have to say, "I'm sorry, I acted like a jackass, and it's time to step aside and let intelligent men and women of wisdom take on the burden of peacemaking".

Brother Joseph Ratzinger might do so, but King George Bush never will.

--p!
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. but if the Pope simply made a blunder...
...it can also be true that Roveco seized the opportunity and already had a game plan to turn it to his advantage, just as they turned 9-11 to their gain.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. That's likewise true
When the clusterfuck is on, the least little thing can set it off.

But people like Rove (and actually hundreds of RWers since about 1964) have carefully and deliberately "built" this house of lies in which we will all burn.

I also don't think that the Pope is completely inculpable. I believe he wanted to "nudge" the Muslims, in the same spirit as wise-ass hipsters who like to "make sacred cows into hamburgers" or "rattle the bars of the monkey cage". Like many self-appointed ass-kickers before him, the Pope's words have had unintended consequences.

--p!
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
16. well Pope Ratty has always been smirk's man

remember how smirk went to the vatican to congratulate Ratty on gaining popehood.
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
17. Unfortunate coincidence. But we need to respond ASAP.
That's why I advocate subtly blaming Bush for kicking open the hornet's nest and using this Pope fiasco as "another example." I think no one on our side sees the chips falling where they are. This event can either be a blow to Bush or a blow for Bush. So far, it works for him.
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RangerSmith Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
20. They both believe the same thing
well, they ALL... Muslims included ... believe the same things... they want others to convert.. but if bush is like most all of the others with whom he is religiously aligned, they don't really feel most Catholics are true Christians and will end up in Heaven.

It's not quite like the issues between Islam and Christianity, but it's far from being truly cordial.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
22. No, it's because they're the same personality type
Narcissistic absolutists who are incapable of mustering any empathy.

That they both do the same things evokes similar responses in the people they target.
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