--> Does progressive and liberal = the same thing? Help me define each

[joey93turbo]

I had a long conversation with a good friend of mine today. I've posted it below. I'd like to hear what you guys have to say on this topic.


<13:09> ridikule81: anyway, liberal and progressive basically mean the same thing anyhow.
<13:09> ridikule81: and Jesus was most definately a liberal.
<13:09> ridikule81: haha
<13:09> joeylink503: there's a big difference
<13:09> joeylink503: you can be a progressive, conservative republican
<13:09> ridikule81: Don't let the 'way it's always been' be a crutch. Not to say that many systems in place aren't good, but there is always room for improvement.
<13:10> joeylink503: the word progressive is basically an opinion
<13:10> ridikule81: hrmm
<13:10> joeylink503: if a republican banned gay marriage, many would say that's progress
<13:10> joeylink503: or cut taxes
<13:10> joeylink503: etc.
<13:10> joeylink503: but it wouldn't be progressive to dems
<13:10> ridikule81: there's a difference because of stereotypes of what those words are supposed to mean... but the basic meaning in the english language... makes no difference... you can easily say lincoln was a liberal republican.
<13:10> joeylink503: so it's all subjective
<13:11> joeylink503: well would you call a republican cutting taxes liberal?
<13:11> joeylink503: cause that' wouldn't fit
<13:11> ridikule81: why not?
<13:11> ridikule81: well
<13:11> joeylink503: because liberal is the opposite of conservative
<13:12> ridikule81: yea?
<13:12> joeylink503: and lower taxes isn't being liberal with the peoples money
<13:13> joeylink503: it means you have to conserve, ie a conservative mindset
<13:13> joeylink503: whereas raising taxes means more to spend, more liberal spending
<13:13> ridikule81: definition of liberal is 'favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.' so really I would have to say that liberal and progressive are the same thing... people use progressive because they don't want to use liberal and be considered to 'have democratic views.'
<13:13> ridikule81: it's sad
<13:13> joeylink503: NOOOOOOOOO
<13:13> joeylink503: lol
<13:13> joeylink503: that's the dems definition
<13:13> ridikule81: that's merriam-webster definition.
<13:13> joeylink503: look in websters from 1864
<13:13> joeylink503: lol
<13:14> joeylink503: how is reform liberal?
<13:14> joeylink503: not taking into account the political definition, because most people dont use that
<13:14> ridikule81: I don't believe in this crap of having a different definition for a word because of your policial background... it's all brainwashing in my opinion, the only definitions I use are the dictionary's.
<13:14> ridikule81: ?!
<13:14> joeylink503: who writes the dictionary and what's their political view?
<13:15> ridikule81: I would have to say that reform is liberal by default.
<13:15> joeylink503: really?
<13:15> ridikule81: Conservative - doing it the way it's always been because it works. Liberal - trying it a new way because they think it might be better.
<13:15> joeylink503: i haven't seen them reforming anything lately
<13:15> joeylink503: that's not true anymore
<13:15> ridikule81: whose them?
<13:15> joeylink503: liberals
<13:15> ridikule81: I'm not talking about anyone
<13:16> ridikule81: I'm talking about what it actually means.
<13:16> joeylink503: it changes with the political climate at the time man, these aren't set in stone definitions
<13:16> joeylink503: once you start studying politics more you'll see what i mean
<13:16> joeylink503: cause i used to say the same thing
<13:16> ridikule81: all words change definition once in a while.
<13:16> joeylink503: exactly
<13:17> joeylink503: well when politics are involved it happens alot faster
<13:17> joeylink503: sometimes every few years
<13:17> ridikule81: but liberal and conservative are words that shouldn't change that much... you start letting them define it and it'll be so convoluded you won't even be able to point out distinct differences.
<13:17> ridikule81: so what's your definition of liberal?
<13:18> ridikule81: if it's not 'for reform' then what is it?
<13:18> joeylink503: if you put alot of jelly on your toast, you're liberal with the jelly
<13:18> joeylink503: if you dump tons of money into welfare, you're liberal with the welfare money
<13:18> ridikule81: whoa
<13:18> joeylink503: it's all subjective man
<13:18> ridikule81: stop right there
<13:18> joeylink503: i mean the literal sense
<13:18> joeylink503: not the democratic definition
<13:18> ridikule81: that's the difference between 'liberal' and 'liberally'
<13:19> ridikule81: they are two different functions of the same word
<13:19> joeylink503: liberally is just the extension of liberally, past tense wouldnt it be?
<13:19> joeylink503: you know the original definition of liberal?
<13:19> joeylink503: it has to relate to liberty
<13:19> ridikule81: if you use it as an adjetive, it means 'use unsparingly' as in to not 'conserve'
<13:20> joeylink503: thomas jefferson was a liberal, as he believed in personal liberty
<13:20> ridikule81: don't confuse conservitive and liberal with conersve and liberally
<13:20> joeylink503: he was also very conservative
<13:20> joeylink503: it's all the same though
<13:20> joeylink503: if you liberally fund the welfare fund, you're being liberal
<13:20> joeylink503: same words
<13:22> ridikule81: yea, I don't buy that at all
<13:22> ridikule81: if you liberally fund the welfare fund, you're being liberal
<13:22> ridikule81: that's not a correct statement... if someone is using it that way, they need to go back to english class.
<13:22> joeylink503: ok funded is what i should have said
<13:22> ridikule81: Let me find another word that has the same functional use to disprove that... hold on.
<13:23> joeylink503: i was just trying to do the same thing, lol
<13:25> ridikule81: Liberal is just a bad word to use for politics
<13:25> ridikule81: it opens the doors for subliminal slamming
<13:25> ridikule81: like
<13:25> ridikule81: "Edwards is liberally spending all of your retirement money."
<13:26> joeylink503: but it fits
<13:26> ridikule81: and it is correct.
<13:26> ridikule81: The meaning here is "not conserving any" but it will be interpretted as "Edwards is spending all of your retirement money the way a liberal would."
<13:26> ridikule81: which is not a correct statement.
<13:26> joeylink503: you're only liberal based on your action
<13:26> joeylink503: s
<13:27> joeylink503: george bush is liberal with the money he pumps into iraq
<13:27> ridikule81: liberally has nothing to do with liberal.
<13:27> joeylink503: it's the same word man
<13:27> ridikule81: true
<13:27> ridikule81: yes
<13:27> ridikule81: but it's a different meaning
<13:27> ridikule81: one is an adjective and the other is a noun
<13:27> joeylink503: no it's not
<13:27> ridikule81: what?
<13:27> ridikule81: dude, go back to school.
<13:27> joeylink503: the democrats have turned it into a noun
<13:27> ridikule81: george bush is liberal with the money he pumps into iraq
<13:27> joeylink503: liberal is not a person, place, or thing
<13:27> ridikule81: LOL
<13:28> ridikule81: whatever you say
<13:28> ridikule81: george bush is liberal with the money he pumps into iraq
<13:28> ridikule81: okay...
<13:28> joeylink503: is that wrong?
<13:28> ridikule81: in this sentence liberal is a description of an action
<13:28> joeylink503: my grammar probably is off
<13:28> joeylink503: exactly
<13:28> ridikule81: and therefore NOT a noun in this sentence structure
<13:28> ridikule81: when liberal is used as a noun, it means what liberal means as a noun
<13:28> ridikule81: "one that is for reform."
<13:28> joeylink503: Main Entry: 1lib·er·al
Pronunciation: 'li-b(&-)r&l
Function: adjective
<13:29> joeylink503: that's from m0w
<13:29> joeylink503: m-w
<13:29> ridikule81: yea
<13:29> ridikule81: you found ajective usage
<13:29> ridikule81: good for you
<13:29> ridikule81: ?
<13:29> joeylink503: it's #1
<13:29> ridikule81: I'm lost...
<13:29> ridikule81: and?
<13:29> joeylink503: lol
<13:29> ridikule81: dude...
<13:29> joeylink503: you'll learn in time if you keep up with this political stuff
<13:29> ridikule81: we're talking about the difference of adjective versus noun
<13:29> joeylink503: it's not a noun
<13:29> ridikule81: so what you SHOULD have pasted is the definitions for both
<13:30> ridikule81: It's not a noune?
<13:30> ridikule81: HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
<13:30> joeylink503: the only person who uses liberal as a noun are people who label themselves "liberal"
<13:30> ridikule81: right?
<13:30> ridikule81: that's how you would use it
<13:30> ridikule81: Main Entry: 2liberal
Function: noun
: a person who is liberal: as a : one who is open-minded or not strict in the observance of orthodox, traditional, or established forms or ways
<13:31> ridikule81: Main Entry: 1lib·er·al
Pronunciation: 'li-b(&-)r&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin liberalis suitable for a freeman, generous, from liber free; perhaps akin to Old English lEodan to grow, Greek eleutheros free
1 a : of, relating to, or based on the liberal arts <liberal education> b archaic : of or befitting a man of free birth
2 a : marked by generosity : OPENHANDED <a liberal giver> b : given or provided in a generous and openhanded way <a liberal meal> c : AMPLE, FULL
<13:31> joeylink503: lol i cant argue this with you, once you get involved you'll see what i mean
<13:31> ridikule81: I really doubt it.
<13:31> ridikule81: I'm too smart to get word-****ed.
<13:31> joeylink503: ask someone y ou trust
<13:31> joeylink503: HAHAAH
<13:32> joeylink503: you already did!
<13:32> joeylink503: by the democrats!
<13:32> ridikule81: Yea, by properly using english words.
<13:32> ridikule81: sad
<13:32> joeylink503: they're the ones that changed the definition of that
<13:32> joeylink503: go talk to someone you trust about it
<13:32> joeylink503: or go ask on the net womewhere
<13:32> joeylink503: some*
<13:32> ridikule81: The only point I am making is this: A Liberal is one that is not tied to the traditional ways. That's it. That doesn't by default make them do anything liberally with anything.
<13:32> joeylink503: go into #politics on efnet and ask
<13:32> ridikule81: they are two different meanings.
<13:33> joeylink503: that's not true at all
<13:33> ridikule81: sigh
<13:33> joeylink503: you're definition is incorrect
<13:33> ridikule81: THINK ABOUT IT FOR TWO SECONDS
<13:33> ridikule81: let your guard down and think
<13:34> ridikule81: I am for reform of several policies... I have liberal views on many things that probably should be changed. AS DO YOU. Are we by default ready to liberally spend tax payers money?
<13:34> ridikule81: see what I mean?
<13:34> ridikule81: you can't make blanket statements like that because they are out of context and don't make sense.
<13:34> joeylink503: lol, i am 100% confident you'll understand later
<13:35> joeylink503: once you get into the real world of this stuff and quit using the dictionary
<13:35> ridikule81: Yea, I think you are falling back on that as a weak argument.
<13:35> joeylink503: lol ok
<13:35> joeylink503: i'm gonna go shower
<13:35> ridikule81: the day I quit using the dictionary is the day you can call me an idiot.,
<13:36> ridikule81: on politicial radio they seem to use the words the way I would expect. Perhaps you've formed some incorrect assumption in your own mind because they seem to fit... but you should re-evaluate them.
<13:37> joeylink503: maybe you're right, will you go discuss this in the channel? I want to see some others agree/disagree with you
<13:39> ridikule81: hrmm
<13:39> ridikule81: that really depends
<13:39> ridikule81: you jump into a conservative channel and say 'liberal' they probably will just say 'you are wrong' before you even ask the question.
<13:39> joeylink503: yeah, i think this channel is more liberal though
<13:40> joeylink503: it's actually pretty even
<13:40> ridikule81: yea, well... it's a matter of grammar and I don't think this discussion has any political ties at all to be honest with you.
<13:40> joeylink503: k
<13:40> ridikule81: like I said you, you have liberal views... but that doesn't make you liberal with anything...
<13:41> ridikule81: what if your liberal views are targetted to reform something in such a way to 'conserve' it more?
<13:41> joeylink503: then it would be a conservative progressive view
<13:42> joeylink503: you said "conserve" yourself
<13:42> joeylink503: and if you're a liberal conservative that's an oxymoron
<13:42> ridikule81: You can have this same argument about Progressive Blues, to be honest with you. It's a matter of word choice.
<13:42> ridikule81: see
<13:42> ridikule81: that's where you are wrong
<13:42> joeylink503: heh, ok
<13:43> ridikule81: if you are a liberal, conserving something is NOT an an oxy moron.
<13:43> ridikule81: convservative and liberal / conserve or convservationally and liberally are not interchangable... it's all in the context of the sentence.
<13:43> ridikule81: There are liberal republicans
<13:44> ridikule81: and convervative democrats
<13:44> joeylink503: now you're saying the same thing i am
<13:44> joeylink503: <13:43> ridikule81: There are liberal republicans
<13:44> ridikule81: and convervative democrats
<13:44> joeylink503: but there aren't conservative liberals
<13:44> ridikule81: well
<13:44> ridikule81: if you agree with that statement, then you contradict yourself with the oxymoron statement.
<13:45> joeylink503: no i dont, i just said there aren't conservative liberals
<13:45> ridikule81: why can't there be conservative liberals? It's been around long enough.... a conservative liberal would be one that is sticking with the ideas of reform that they had 10 years ago, while others are going for some new idea.
<13:45> joeylink503: unless you're using the democrats definition of liberal, which is what they like to call them selves (a noun, a label)
<13:46> ridikule81: the noun of liberal is simply one that is for reform.
<13:46> ridikule81: which pretty much everyone falls into
<13:46> joeylink503: democratic definition
<13:46> ridikule81: unless you love the current state of america
<13:46> ridikule81: yea...
<13:46> ridikule81: m-w definition
<13:47> joeylink503: k
<13:47> ridikule81: democrats didn't 'make' it a noun as you said... that's ridiculous.
<13:47> ridikule81: yea, I'm going to go clean out the garage... later
<13:47> joeylink503: seriously?
<13:47> ridikule81: seriously what?
<13:47> joeylink503: <13:47> ridikule81: democrats didn't 'make' it a noun as you said... that's ridiculous.
<13:47> ridikule81: right.
<13:48> ridikule81: it's been a functional usage before north america was even discovered
<13:48> joeylink503: lol i'm going to post this conversation on democratic underground and the high road, it'll be interesting :D
<13:48> ridikule81: k

[Lexingtonian]

1. okay, I'll bite.

Your buddy there is using the definitions of these words that are Republican conventions, and you're using them more according to Democratic conventions.

Democrats and people on the left side of the political spectrum use 'progressive' in way that points roughly back at Progressivism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism

These days 'progressive' as used by people who identify left or Democratic means essentially a moderate Leftist, a person who wants economic change in their class's favor more than social change of equivalent proportions. Most moderate Democrats are progressives. Progressives contrast with the American hardcore Left, which is tiny and Marxist in its essential notions (some use Leninist lingo, others don't) and secretly socially very illiberal, and American Liberals.

Republicans use the word 'progressive' in a unintellegible way. In their regressive worldview any change can be (and is) construed as 'progress' and thus 'progressive'. A lot of times they use the word in a denotative way, for incremental or serial actions that are claimed to be useful changes.

Liberal...for American liberals the word has a very clearcut meaning of maximal personal freedoms within a framework of laws whose purpose is to exclude barbarity and undue burdens. Economic arrangements are made to serve this ideal to largest degree possible, it's pragmatic with a socialist-type ideal but not dogma. For liberals authority is merely a tool, and not even the most important one. American reactionaries and conservatives use the term liberal to mean 'uncontrolled' or 'unconsidered' and as equivalent to 'anarchistic' or 'nihilistic'.

In our present situation in 2006 in the United States, things are also muddled by the core argument. As I see it, that argument at bottom is about realization of Section 1 of the 14th Amendment. American liberals are 'conservative' in the sense that they have spent nearly 40 years defending realizations of 14/1 achieved in the 1950s and '60s and trying to expand them as integrity demands it to cover all Americans. (Desegregation, Affirmative Action, womens' and gay civil rights, ex-felons' rights, immigrants' rights, the one man/one vote doctrine, rights of the incarcerated, affirmative duty of the state toward its dependents, etc.)

'We' are 'conservative' because 14/1 exists in the Constitution and Republicans cannot get around that fact. But Republicans are 'traditional' because during Reconstruction a political practice or convention took hold that the 14/1 guarantees of Due Process, Equal Protection, and Immunities And Privileges to all would ignored as best as possible- only be enforced in small ways, and in many realms of American life not at all.

And that is why being a true Liberal is to be a variety of conservative- people like myself are fine with the Constitution as it is written, in fact we want the Constitution implemented fully and properly and wisely. We have no argument with the institutions, we have an argument with the corrupt doctrines (like "strict constructionism" and a myriad of transient others, like 'compassionate conservatism') that these institutions are coerced into implementing. We reject the violations of 14/1 that are fundamental Republican doctrine (suppression of black voters, unions, ex-felons, gay people, poor people) that screw up everything in the name of creating or maintaining privileged classes or castes who inevitably abuse their powers and stifle, if not oppress, other Americans without necessity.

[xchrom]

2. definitions

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/liberal

Main Entry: 1lib·er·al
Pronunciation: 'li-b(&-)r&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin liberalis suitable for a freeman, generous, from liber free; perhaps akin to Old English lEodan to grow, Greek eleutheros free
1 a : of, relating to, or based on the liberal arts <liberal education> b archaic : of or befitting a man of free birth
2 a : marked by generosity : OPENHANDED <a liberal giver> b : given or provided in a generous and openhanded way <a liberal meal> c : AMPLE, FULL
3 obsolete : lacking moral restraint : LICENTIOUS
4 : not literal or strict : LOOSE <a liberal translation>
5 : BROAD-MINDED; especially : not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms
6 a : of, favoring, or based upon the principles of liberalism b capitalized : of or constituting a political party advocating or associated with the principles of political liberalism; especially : of or constituting a political party in the United Kingdom associated with ideals of individual especially economic freedom, greater individual participation in government, and constitutional, political, and administrative reforms designed to secure these objectives
- lib·er·al·ly /-b(&-)r&-lE/ adverb
- lib·er·al·ness noun
synonyms LIBERAL, GENEROUS, BOUNTIFUL, MUNIFICENT mean giving or given freely and unstintingly. LIBERAL suggests openhandedness in the giver and largeness in the thing or amount given <a teacher liberal with her praise>. GENEROUS stresses warmhearted readiness to give more than size or importance of the gift <a generous offer of help>. BOUNTIFUL suggests lavish, unremitting giving or providing <children spoiled by bountiful presents>. MUNIFICENT suggests a scale of giving appropriate to lords or princes <a munificent foundation grant>.


political description: Main Entry: 2liberal
Function: noun
: a person who is liberal: as a : one who is open-minded or not strict in the observance of orthodox, traditional, or established forms or ways b capitalized : a member or supporter of a liberal political party c : an advocate or adherent of liberalism especially in individual rights


progressive


Main Entry: 1pro·gres·sive
Pronunciation: pr&-'gre-siv
Function: adjective
1 a : of, relating to, or characterized by progress b : making use of or interested in new ideas, findings, or opportunities c : of, relating to, or constituting an educational theory marked by emphasis on the individual child, informality of classroom procedure, and encouragement of self-expression
2 : of, relating to, or characterized by progression
3 : moving forward or onward : ADVANCING
4 a : increasing in extent or severity <a progressive disease> b : increasing in rate as the base increases <a progressive tax>
5 often capitalized : of or relating to political Progressives
6 : of, relating to, or constituting a verb form that expresses action or state in progress at the time of speaking or a time spoken of
- pro·gres·sive·ly adverb
- pro·gres·sive·ness noun

2nd definition

Main Entry: 2progressive
Function: noun
1 a : one that is progressive b : one believing in moderate political change and especially social improvement by governmental action
2 capitalized : a member of any of various United States political parties: as a : a member of a predominantly agrarian minor party that around 1912 split off from the Republicans; specifically : BULL MOOSE b : a follower of Robert M. La Follette in the presidential campaign of 1924 c : a follower of Henry A. Wallace in the presidential campaign of 1948


you or your friend were way off base talking about liberal in a strictly financial sense.

liberals are progressive -- liberals would generally advocate using the new provided they benefitted society as a whole.
liberals believe in providing for the general welfare of everyone -- something that conservatives always forget.

it wasn't conservatives that america the country it was -- it was democrats -- like lyndon johnson, roosevelt, kennedy etc.
and we certainly like many of teddy roosevelts stands on conservation.

we don't believe in a stepping stone society -- i.e. the truth about boot strap is that it's really really stepping on other people to get you want -- at the EXPENCE of others.

i'm a liberal who believes in taxes -- because how the fuck are you gonna pay to live together otherwise?
and my taxes -- your taxes are not the same as a gold mine to be exploited by the already well off.

[bananas]

3. JFK's definition of "liberal" is probably the best and most accurate

http://www.liberalparty.org/JFKLPAcceptance.html

A Liberal Definition by John F. Kennedy:
Acceptance Speech of the New York Liberal Party Nomination

September 14, 1960

What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."

But first, I would like to say what I understand the word "Liberal" to mean and explain in the process why I consider myself to be a "Liberal," and what it means in the presidential election of 1960.

<snip - go read it>