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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 09:54 PM
Original message
An idea for an American Black Ops Terrorist Hit Squad
Okay, I'm channeling Tom Clancy and Vince Flynn here. I am NOT espousing this idea. I'm only throwing it out for discussion as we wait for the primary results.

No matter how we dislike the Republicans All Fear All the Time tactics, no one can say there isn't a real threat to our country - and other - from various and sundry terrorists. The fact is, terrorism has become *the* preferred form of warfare today, particularly among non-state groups like Hizbulluh, Al Quaeda, The IRA (now quite calmed down, but ya never know), The various Eastern European groups, etc., etc.

Our CIA was the main force against these groups, but clearly they've been pretty ineffective. Military operations are absolutely not the answer. Diplomacy is surely the first choice, but it will never be fully effective.

What if we started a formal black ops kind of agency to fight these people? maybe a little fast and loose from time to time, but generally with strict oversight. Secret oversight, to be sure. But oversight.

Again .... NOT a suggestion. Just a little ball to bat around this evening.

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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. What if we used cops and FBI and made nice with the rest of the
world's leaders and asked for the help they once so willingly offered us and tracked down these CRIMINALS and then had open & fair trials with due process and showed these CRIMINALS that WE WILL NOT BECOME THEM???

Oh and if we stopped going around killing other people's kids for "US interests". That'd be a huge help too.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. I should think that would all fall under the 'diplomacy first' thing
Of course that's the first way. Goes without saying. But there's no denying that hard core bad guys are out there. The black ops would be specifically for these hard core ones.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Who and how decides who the "hard core bad guys" are, and when
we murder even ONE human being, that makes us just the same as the "hard core bad guy".

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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Would you agree that Osama's a major bad guy?
Hyman al Zawahiri?

Some guy leading 50 guys with AK47s in Al Anbar? Probably not?
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Not without a fair trial, nope.
PRESUMED INNOCENT. It's the founding stone of our entire society. And I, for one, believe in it 110%.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Who said he wouldn't get a fair trial?
The suggestion of black ops doesn't mean the bad guy always dies.

Its funny ..... this was a fantasy thread - as stated in the OP - and you seem to be railing as if I'm the devil.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I'm not in the slightest "railing" at you or anyone else.
If you didn't want discussion, you shouldn't have posted. :)
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Fair enough .....
..... I'll ignore the 'presumed innocent' shouted at me. :)
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Not shouting at you.
Shouting my belief in "PRESUMED INNOCENT"; a concept I believe in with every fibre of my being.

:)
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razors edge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. how do explain when a mossad operation ends up killing a cia
one, or vise versa?
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Shit happens?
Hell, such things may already have happened.

Don't mean to be glib, but, seriously, I have to believe there've been 'friendly fire' incidents over the years. But how would we ever know? Neither side would admit it.
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razors edge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. i agree we may never know
but i may have been a little to subtle as i believe these two organizations to be behind the bulk of such situations.

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spindrifter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. Maybe we already have this.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Maybe we do ... and if so ......
.... is it a bad thing (again, in my fantasy here, there's oversight)?
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spindrifter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. As I recall, we used to do
these black ops--or try to do them--and they had oversight. We got out of that business, though. Hmmm--I think it was because Congress didn't think it was the moral thing that America should do to be involved in assassinating other countries' leaders or important people. We have gone so far beyond that--if we did have an "approved" black ops group now, I'm pretty sure it would be outsourced. It would probably be operated by private people of U.S. and British citizenship.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #8
25. and what's all this about "Shadow Government?"
I think the main problem with these types of groups is that eventually they become corruptable and may participate in drug running, money laundering, arms dealing....you know, the typical Iran/Contra type of bullshit. These days, is it really that easy to distinguish the terrorists from some of the "good" guys? Anyone see Syrianna?
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LUHiWY Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Trust me...
...."they" already do this. And oversight don't mean sh*t if the overseers are of a like mind with those who do the deeds.

In fact it's probably this type of operation that helped to give the US a bad name and partially led to 9/11?

Americans live their protected "bubble lives" while these people do this dirt in their name.

Foreign policy should be based on respect and cooperation when possible?





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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. "Foreign policy should be based on respect and cooperation when possible?"
No argument from me on that point.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
9. Every legitimate plot that has been foiled has been done so
by meticulous police work, not black ops and not the military.

It's the only thing that has a chance of slowing these guys down.

Israel's history should tell us that hitting back doesn't work.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. That's very true
And with proper diplomacy and proper international police activity, that would stop ... what ... 90% .... 99%.

What I'm throwing out is about that last few %.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. There is nothing else you can do to stop someone
who wants to hurt you so much that he's decided he isn't going to bother to try to get out alive.

Looking for perfection always gets us into trouble. The best we can hope for is slowing them down, discovering enough of them before they're carried out that we'll be a lot safer than if we'd done nothing...or used a military against their home countries.
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Divernan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
10. Bring them to US for a full & open trial, not for torture/execution
Our civil liberties and constitutional rights are grounded on the premise that people are innocent until PROVEN guilty and that all people have the same rights and protections under our law. That is a prime difference between the Anglo-Saxon legal tradition, and the civil law tradition in some other countries, where there is a presumption of guilt and the burden is on the accused to prove their innocence. If you approve the black ops approach, you abandon those principals, rights and protections. It is too easy for such a system to be fooled - if you look into the situation at Guantanamo Bay, you will find that 86 percent of the prisoners in Guantanamo were denounced as terrorists simply to get the big fat rewards offered by US leaflets:

www.jurist.law.pitt.edu/forumy/2006/03/adels-anniversary-guantanamo-tale.php

Bernard Hibbitts, Publisher & Editor-in-Chief
11:14 PM Tuesday, Sept. 12, 2006


FORUM
Op-eds on legal news by law professors and JURIST special guests...





Adel's Anniversary: A Guantanamo Tale


JURIST Special Guest Columnist P. Sabin Willett, a partner at Bingham McCutchen, LLP, working pro bono with a team of Bingham lawyers in the Guantanamo habeas litigation, says that the detention of a Chinese Uighur is just one proof that the general, officially-articulated proposition that Guantanamo holds terrorists is a lie...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Adel's anniversary is coming up.

I met him one day last July, when he was chained to the floor of a hut in Guantanamo. Four months before, my firm had filed his habeas case, but I'd never seen or spoken to him before. Was he a terrorist? One of the worst of the worst?

You might be excused for thinking so. Vice President Dick Cheney says, "The people that are there are people we picked up on the battlefield, primarily in Afghanistan. They're terrorists. They’re bomb makers. They're facilitators of terror. They’re members of Al Qaeda and the Taliban."

But last July I discovered what the Bush Administration had kept secret about Adel. They'd concluded he was not a terrorist, not an enemy soldier, not Al Qaeda, not Taliban, had never been on a battlefield or fired a shot in anger. He'd been sold to U.S. forces by bounty hunters from Pakistan.

On December 22, 2005, a federal judge ruled that the President's imprisonment of Adel is unlawful. Then he dismissed Adel's case. Adel is a "Uighur," a Turkic Muslim from the far western reaches of Communist China. A dissident, he cannot be returned to China because the Chinese would torture him, or worse. The judge concluded he could not order Adel's release within the continental US because that would be to infringe on the President's control of immigration. His lawyers think that was incorrect, but does it matter? The core function of a judge in a free society – remedying illegal imprisonment – is undone by immigration law?

I used to think Adel was the exception. My guess now is that History will show he's the rule. Last month, Seton Hall Law Professor Mark Denbeaux published a study analyzing the Military’s own “combatant status review tribunal” records. He ignored what we lawyers say, and relied exclusively on military allegations. Here’s what he found.

The Vice President says they men are Al Qaeda fighters. What does the military say? Eight percent are al Qaeda fighters. Ninety two percent are not. The Vice President says these men were picked up on the battlefield. The military data show that five percent were picked up on the battlefield. How did we get the others? US forces distributed leaflets. One says, in Pashto:
Get wealth and power beyond your dreams …
You can receive millions of dollars helping the anti-Taliban forces catch al-Qaida and Taliban murderers. This is enough money to take care of your family, your village, your tribe for the rest of your life. Pay for livestock and doctors and school books and housing for all your people.
Eighty-six percent were sold to us by people who got the leaflets.

Vice President Cheney says they committed hostile acts against Americans or their allies. What do the data show? Fifty-five percent of the detainees committed no hostile act against the US or its allies or any one else. By the way, wearing a Casio watch is a "hostile act." So is fleeing from US bombing.

Who’s at Guantanamo? Privates, orphans, the poor, conscripts, cooks, drivers, persons who "associated with the Taliban" by inhabiting its prisons as enemies of its regime. The Taliban generals aren’t there. Some are busy in the Afghan parliament we helped construct. A former Taliban spokesman isn't there either. He’s a freshman at Yale.

The central lie of Guantanamo is the whopper: that as a general proposition it holds terrorists. The President, the Vice President, their amen chorus in Congress tell us so relentlessly. But if one searches the military’s findings for an act of violence against persons or property, for bombing or bombmaking or the teaching of bombmaking or planning or conspiring for it, fundraising, cheerleading – anything -- when one searches hundreds and hundreds of military records, one finds that this is, most of all, who isn't at Guantanamo.

When the history of all this is written no branch of our government will fare very well. The President will be remembered for the shabby inhumanity of this exercise, as well as the pointless ineptitude of imprisoning chicken farmers, stroke victims, and former prisoners of the Taliban. He bowed to theorists who lacked life experience or judgment. Or decency. On his watch they brought their fanciful notions out of the academy and into Guantanamo, where men were beaten, and Bagram and Abu Ghraib, where men were murdered. History will not be kind to him.

Nor to Congress, either. Last year, with trumpets blaring, Congress declared a ban on torture, voting sotto voce to abolish the only remedy that might bring torture to light: habeas corpus at Guantanamo. Not so long ago, America's chief law enforcement officer blandly testified that the President is free to offend an act of Congress when he deems it necessary. The legislators clucked and scolded for a few hours -- then hastened to amend the act. The Republicans scramble to protect the President, while the Democrats are up on the roof with a windsock, trying to figure out what to believe in. History will not be kind to them either.

But I wonder if History will save its sternest verdict for the judicial branch. We like to think our judges are on the watch tower. In times of panic and folly, we rely on them for judgment and courage. Yet when our judges' moment came, they flinched.

It came on June 28, 2004. On that day, in the plainest possible words the Supreme Court of the United States ordered one court -- the United States District Court for the District of Columbia -- to hold factual hearings on the habeas cases. It ordered the judges to decide who was an 'enemy combatan'” and who a chicken farmer. "We ... remand these cases for the District Court to consider in the first instance the merits of petitioners’ claims," the Court said in Rasul v. Bush. The Court did not remand to a lieutenant colonel in the Army, and it did not, after two years of litigation, remand for a test of the pleadings. It sent the case to a federal judge to hear the merits. Thus far only one has done so, and he found the imprisonment unlawful.

Through eighteen months, all the other district judges have begged someone -- Congress, the Court of Appeals, anyone -- to take the cup from them. The Executive filed motions challenging jurisdiction (again); appeals were taken; the district judges breathed a sigh of thanks and granted stays. The appeals grind on, and many of those stays are now more than a year old. Zadvydas v. Davis teaches that indefinite imprisonment of aliens is illegal, but the district judges decreed an indefinite imprisonment in the habeas litigation nonetheless, and at last Congress let them all off the hook by voting to abolish habeas review at Guantanamo. Or not: now we are into a new round of briefs about whether the Detainee Treatment Act is retroactive. Another appellate exercise – well, that's a mercy. It should keep the cup of judgment away for at least another year.

Do we have a judicial branch in this country, or Kabuki theatre? We can wait for History’s verdict, or we might just ask Adel. On March 26, 2006, he'll reach a milestone: one year since the military completed its determination that he is not an enemy combatant. He'll be celebrating that date behind concertina wire, at Camp Iguana, JTF Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.


P. Sabin Willett is a partner at Bingham McCutchen LLP in Boston.

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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I didn't read that, but there's little reason I can think of NOT to .....
.... bring them back and put them on trial.

That said, I **can** imagine cases where the trials might not be fully public in cases where testimony would lead to some compromise of an ongoing operation.
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Divernan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. In 4 years and nearly 4000 posts, I have never posted anything so lengthy.
I put the whole thing up because it is the most fact-filled, powerful critique of Gitmo that I have seen, written by a lawyer who has done pro-bono work there for some of the wrongfully jailed prisoners. I hope you will find the time to read it.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. I scanned it
I'll read it if I have the time. That said, on a scan, there seemed to be little in there of which I wasn't aware.

I am NO fan of the shit down in Gitmo. It is a natinal shame and the perps (Rummy being perp number one) shoudl be tried for crimes against humanity.
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 06:17 AM
Response to Original message
26. What do
Edited on Wed Sep-13-06 06:20 AM by CJCRANE
you do call extraordinary renditions, indefinite detention, secret camps, torture, blowing up villages with Predator drones etc?

"Black ops" is out in the open and official policy. The "Shadow Government" has stepped into the light.

on edit: added a couple more examples.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. I call all that 'out of control'
Had it been bin Laden, I wouldn't care at all. But all the nobodies they have .... out of control.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
28. Wouldn't it be interesting if we could find and detain Osama
and deliver him to some international tribunal for a fair trial?

Dubya and his cohorts would look so ineffective.

It could be a tough job; Al Qaeda is thought to be in the ungovernment tribal areas of Pakistan which are mountainous. It would take allies who can speak Arabic and are probably natives/Muslims. This is what we should have done instead of just bombing the civilians in Afghanistan. We just gain the hatred of the survivors of our vengeful attacks, and zero cooperation in finding Osama and Al Qaeda.
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