How Democrats Must Prove That the Whole System Isn't Rotten

[Parisle]

---- Picture a democratic re-taking of the House in two months,....maybe even drawing even in the Senate,... and then the White House in 2008. A nice picture if you're a DNC member, legislator or campaign operative. It portrays an image of "success," but it may not be so. The democrats will immediately face a political responsibility which will truly determine if they are genuine patriots or opportunistic political hucksters.

---- The PNAC has to be punished. The electoral oddyssy of regaining Congress and the White House will not be over until the democrats show that justice, accountability and law are still part of our system of governance. Perhaps even more importantly, we have to show the world that we have actually spit out the poison of the neo-nazi junta which briefly gained control of our executive branch.

---- Any democrat who has a problem with Cheney or Wolfowitz in prison,.. or Feith on the gallows,...etc, etc,.. will not have my support. Investigations have to be held,.. truths uncovered,.. charges and indictments issued,.. and severe sentencing handed down. I'm sorry, but that is just the way it is. You might shake hands after a strenuously contested baseball game,... but there was no handshaking in 1945. There was Nuremburg.

---- If this does not happen, then in my mind it will confirm that the entire system,... the "political industry" if you will,... is hopelessly corrupt,.. a corporate-sponsored charade of good cop-bad cop,... and folks, that's where I get off the bus.

[Stinky The Clown]

1. K&R

[calimary]

2. That's why IMPEACHMENT is such a priority.

As one DUer here said, recently, either you're FOR accountability or you're NOT.

[Parisle]

3. That's True,.... Accountability of Biblical Proportions

---- They would not want to see a "Parisle" presidency, rest assured.

[alvarezadams]

31. Than that DUer

should realize that Bubba and virtually every previous potus should also have been held accountable.

Sorry, but it's true. And since the lion's share of Dem leaders supported the invasion of Iraq - and are now only angry because the "right" thing to do was done badly, they should too be impeached... or at least be repudiated by the electorate.

Sanitized and partisan versions of history abound. And one of the most common parts of partisanship is the double standard... and yet another is wishful thinking.

The rhetoric of such men as JFK, FDR, and in a pinch LBJ, Carter and Clinton sounds marvelous to the progressive ear. By choosing to express such progressive sentiments they can count on the support of party fans. Conservative rhetoric, having been seen as manipulation - can be discounted.

The problem is, of course, that the rhetoric of the JFK's (etc.) is every bit as manipulative as that of the opposition. Few politicians have actually made their rhetoric coincide with their actions - regardless of their party.

I idenitfy with the Dem version of rhetoric. I share many of the values that Dem rhetoric alludes to. But I am not so naive as to believe that a party that supported fascist dictators as much as the GOP has - or that has waged illegal wars of choice just as the GOP has - or that has supported hegemony over peaceful coexistence just as the GOP has... is any better than the GOP.

I HOPE, DESIRE and will work towards marrying Dem rhetoric with Dem values. But I am under no illusion - it has never happened yet. Outside of a few "radicals" (who would be middle of the road centrists anywhere else), the DNC is wasted space as far as true aspirations is concerned (IMO).

For a democracy to succeed a few conditions must exist. First and foremost, an informed and engaged electorate. Secondly, a true opposition. Thirdly, parties with articulated objectives, agendas and strategies. Lastly, ideologies that articulate the goals of government, both domestic and international. At last count we're batting .000.

But hope springs eternal.

[Cerridwen]

4. K & R.........n/t

[Greyhound]

5. One more and your on the front page!

Good post. :kick:

[bvar22]

6. Prepare for disappointment.

When the "HEAT" is on, the Democratic Leadership AND the Republican leadership will close ranks to protect the system that enriches them. It happened in Iran/Contra, and it will happen again if the Dems retake the House.

Br Prepared for:
"Now is not the time to dwell in the Past. Now is the time to join hands and heal the nation as we march into the future, an America united!" :puke:

There will be a few token whitewashes that find fault with everyone (if everyone is to blame, then no one is to blame).
There will be a few tough talking video ops for the folks back home (Biden, Clinton, etc.).

BUT, be prepared, there will be NO significant investigations.
There will be NO indictments. (come on, we're talking RICH PEOPLE here).

You may quote me.
Bookmark this thread.
I will LOVE IT if I have to eat my words.

"Every one has a plan...Until you hit them in the mouth." --Mike Tyson

[blm]

7. Open the books on IranContra and BCCI and let Americans know what REALLY

led to the growing strength of terrorism, 9-11 and Bush's Iraq war.

[alvarezadams]

9. Let's be realistic here

The problems are far older and the blame is equally Dem and Repub.

[blm]

11. Equally? I disagree with you vociferously.

No one in their unbiased mind could read the congressional record or National Security Archives of the last 40yrs and make a statement like that.

[alvarezadams]

13. No?

Wishful thinking tends to cloud issues so I'll spell it out for you, particularly since you note "40 years".

Tonkin Gulf and Vietnam were Dem deals. JFK may have been duped but he ultimately approved of the Bay of Pigs. No need to mention Haiti.

So it doesn't take a biased or an unbiased mind to make a statement like that - just historical knowledge.

[blm]

15. Tonkin's not indicative of the overall goal of fascism and any HONEST read

of the historic record would acknowledge that.

The Republican party has been home to those overseeing the rise of fascism in this country. The Democrats are barely part of the periphery, even while some have shown themselves to be taken in and useful to the fascist agenda.

But EQUALLY as you are trying to claim - - let ME spell it out to you - - utter H-O-R-S-E-S-H-I-T!.

Historian Harold Evans has said that the Greatest crimes against the American Constitution were committed in IranContra and BCCI. Those crimes were 90% Republican and the 10% that involved Dems were mainly Dems ignorant of the depth of the deceit, like Sam Nunn and Al Gore.

[alvarezadams]

16. Hmmm?

The Dems record on foreign policy was, until Dubya, as bad as the GOP's. We were particularly hoodwinked with regards to Kosovo (thanx, Bubba).

As for the rise of fascism, is there much of a difference?

As for Harold Evans - do you mean the British journalist? He has his opinions, I have mine. I'll match your Evans with a Chomsky.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

17. Can you provide a democratic group that parallels PNAC? n/t

MKJ

[alvarezadams]

21. Yes

The DLC. Will Marshall actually signed two PNAC comuniques.

But one doesn't have to be so literal - I can provide lots of parallels dating from Wilson's time, passing through FDR, certainly Truman - and right up to Bubba. The biggest difference between yesterdays' politico's and today's Dubya is the quality of the rhetoric (even though all American politicians have invariably waived the flag of democracy). In the end the driving force of GOP and Dem administrations has not been to make the world safer for democracy but for American corporations - and one can go back to Walter Lippmann (a precursor to Leo Strauss) to see how the DNC has considered the electorate.

"From 1945 to 2003, the United States attempted to overthrow more than 40 foreign governments, and to crush more than 30 populist-nationalist movements fighting against intolerable regimes. In the process, the US bombed some 25 countries, caused the end of life for several million people, and condemned many millions more to a life of agony and despair."
William Blum

This has happened under administrations of either side of the aisle.

[blm]

19. Opinion backed by FACTS from National Security Archives. And don't hide

behind Chomsky - Chomsky doesn't believe the Democrats are driving the train towards fascism - he knows some have been used, coerced, convinced, and hoodwinked, but aren't EQUALLY culpable.

Your opinion of EQUAL culpability has no basis in the reality of the historic record - you think Kosovo was equally fascist and criminal as IranContra and BCCI?

What kind of agenda is at play where one would try to convince DEMOCRATS - ACTIVIST Democrats - that Democrats have been equal partners in the crimes committed to further the rise of fascism?

[alvarezadams]

22. You seem to see things pretty B&W

PNAC is inarguably neocon. Yet neconservatism is an outshoot of former Dems.

Neoconservatism as a foreign policy propounds American military and political hegemony. Alone it cannot be considered fascist - at best it emulates aspects of totalitarian foreign policy. Its alliance with neoliberal economics does argue for a fascist label, while the third horse of this particular apocalypse (religion) makes the whole conservative extreme appear more like Falangism.

The US has supported fascist dictators for decades, under either party. It has invaded and occupied countries at whim - purportedly in self-defense against encroaching communism but in reality in defense of American economic interests. This has been practiced by both parties - in fact, perhaps more by Dems inasmuch the GOP was isolationist for a considerable time.

Was Kosovo less "fascist" than Iran/Contra? Besides misapplying the label, let's assume that you mean "culpable" or "evil" or "wrong". What most Americans don't realize is that the party that was doing most of the killing before the bombs dropped were the ethnic Albanians and not the Serbs - that was an atrocious manipulation... while Reagan's escapades were intended to take place behind closed doors. So which is indeed "worse" - purposeful manipulation or secrecy?

What kind of agenda do I have? In this particular issue - none whatsoever except to highlight the truth. So what kind of issue do YOU have to try to keep ACTIVIST DEMOCRATS in ignorance? Do you figure that you'll succeed in making us forget about Vietnam?

[blm]

26. Dem actions in Vietnam weren't a purposeful drive towards fascism the way

every crime of the GOP over the last 40years HAS been.

I never try to avoid Vietnam or any other issue - but I know the difference between acts meant to drive the agenda of global fascism and those part of the geo-political terrain.

You are claiming the acts are equal - I say the GOP acts towards an agenda of global fascism that swamps the competent or poor decision of any Dem leader faced with the dynamics of individual, unrelated circumstances.

[alvarezadams]

27. Maybe we have to back up a few steps here

Maybe by defining the GOP's drive towards fascism over the past 40 years would be a good start. Especially since the pre-WWII born GOPers were mostly isolationists converted to internationalism - and since the 1950's GOP was arguably more liberal than today's DNC.

So how do you define global fascism? If it is from the economic POV, the DNC has been as active as the GOP. If militarily, ditto. And if it means the support of fascistic regimes - more of the same.

But then again the DNC isn't a monolith either. It covers everything from the center to the center-right... and includes hawks and doves, corporate fellators and populists...

In point of fact I see both parties as tools of special interests - since ideology means next to nothing to both of them. If the DNC is in power rest assured that the corps will use it (Pentagon Papers)... and the same with the GOP.

[alvarezadams]

24. BTW, what does BCCI have to do with it?

'Cos then Andrew Young, Clark Clifford and even Jimmy Carter enter into the picture.

[blm]

28. They were peripheral part of BCCI issues, not the MAIN DRIVERS as BushInc

was. It wasn't any Democrats' minor role that caused documents to be classified by Poppy Bush.

[alvarezadams]

29. Dubya's team

is following the Straussian POV that manipulation (and tangentially) secrecy are valid methods. IOW, the electorate are too stupid to know any better.

We may be arguing at cross purposes here - please address my post on definitions.

[alvarezadams]

8. It IS corrupt

-PNAC is supported by the DLC.
-The immense majority of Dem representatives supported Dubya's war resolutions. Caveats aside, one would have to be an utter moron not to realize that Dubya was after war at any cost - and thus the immense majority of Dems are as guilty as Dubya and the GOP for waging an illegal war of choice. To think that the DNC will pursue impeachment or any other political responsiblity for Iraq is ludicrous and naive.
-As it stands, the moiety of the electorate already considers the "establishment" as being corrupt and a charade.

It IS a good-cop/bad cop charade as we stand now. The recent PPI/Third Way cum DNC extravaganza (highlighting admin incometence in the MEANS and not the OBJECTIVES of the Iraq debacle) show that this is so.

If we want a change we need to change OUR party first. A DNC victory actually might be counterproductive at this point in time.

[Parisle]

10. I Cannot Disagree With You, alvarez

---- Bravely spoken,.... Most of your response has been in the back of my mind, as well.

[Eric J in MN]

12. There is always a majority in the Senate, because...

...if the Senators are divided 50-50, then the Vice President's party determines who controls the committees.

[personman]

14. Come on in, the waters fine!

"If this does not happen, then in my mind it will confirm that the entire system,... the "political industry" if you will,... is hopelessly corrupt,.. a corporate-sponsored charade of good cop-bad cop,... and folks, that's where I get off the bus."

That's pretty much what I thought, then I started reading some history and realized none of those things you mentioned will happen, and even if they do, there are only about a billion other wrongs in the past that need to be righted to promote this political/economic machine to "worth pissing on".

I'll hold my nose and vote democrat, but to me it's the Coke president vs the Pepsi president.

Chomsky says we are ruled by a one party system (the business party) with 2 factions. Makes a lot of sense to me.

But yeah, anyway, the system is fucked. I think most people realize this but few are willing to take an anti-establishment stance. Some folks on the left have bought into the idea that the republicans are the whole problem. Seems like some form of nationalism to me, where you're unable to see the wrongs on your side.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

18. Yeah, we nationalist dems. The group who perfected circular firing

squads.

MKJ

[Parisle]

20. A Good Reply, ....

---- I've also seen Chomsky's characterization of the dual-factioned "business" party,... which I refer to as the "political industry." And that does about sum it up, I'm afraid,.. and the evils in the system are deeply entrenched. But I do not necessarily believe that a majority of Americans could not be persuaded of the obvious and implicit threat to healthy constitutional democracy posed by the presence of all that corporate money fueling the system. But someone has to bring it to light,.... make the case, and make it eloquently,.... fire the first shot, if you will,.... Taking back the government does not refer to taking it back from republicans,... but to taking it back from corporate domination. If at least 60% of this population cannot be convinced of that,... then I'm leaving. But I'll do my part in the meantime,...

[alvarezadams]

30. While I'm very pessimistic about...

... where our government and nation are going, I don't see this particular point as being particularly difficult. I believe that most Americans realize the overwhelming influence of big business, and they've done so since the times of McKinley.

We once had muguwumps against corportation - and they were wildly successful. Election reform, the breaking up of many of the city and state party machines and even trust-busting. I think that a lot of political abstention has to do with the electorate's recognition of the fundamental corruption and am hoping that someone will come along and waive a true reform platform under their noses.

The problem's existed for a century, it's been addresses (half-heartedly) a number of times. It goes to show that the political will is not there - politicians and parties know who butters their bread.

[Jed Dilligan]

23. Dream on

They're like lawyers, mostly are lawyers. They will protect their own kind against the will of us inferior folk before any other priority.

[Imagevision]

25. Prove That the Whole System Isn't Rotten? that's a tough one...