is Germany's Merkel religiously insane?

[donsu]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,,1860140,00.html

Merkel backs more Christian EU constitution

Europe's "Christian values" should be enshrined in a new version of the EU constitution, the German chancellor declared yesterday after meeting the Pope.

In remarks which will reopen the debate on religion in the EU, Angela Merkel threw her weight behind Pope Benedict's campaign to recognise Europe's Christian heritage. "We spoke about freedom of religion," she said after talks at the Pope's summer residence near Rome. "We spoke about the role of Europe and I emphasised the need for a constitution and that it should refer to our Christian values."

-snip-

But Mrs Merkel, the daughter of a Protestant pastor, is determined to reopen the debate when she tries to revive the constitution, a controversial move in itself because many EU leaders want a slimmed down document after last year's no votes.

The chancellor is leader of the strongly Catholic CDU party whose most senior figure in Brussels is determined to include a reference to God in the new constitution. Hans-Gert Pöttering, currently leader of the EPP-ED group in the European parliament, is on course to become the assembly's president next year.
-----------------------------

good grief - hope the EU puts her down

wake up Germans

[ChairmanAgnostic]

1. puts her down - like a rabid dog?

yet, even she thinks that Bush is insane, so she can't be all bad.

[donsu]

2. maybe talking with smirk's man the pope put her over the edge

nt

[Warpy]

3. She will be Stupid's lifelong enemy, I think

because of his drunken antics at the G8.

I have no love at all for right wing Merkel, but it is delicious to see dissent in the right wing, religious nut ranks.

[tocqueville]

4. it's probably hot air

she might get some Polish support, but that's about all. It would be illegal regarding the French constitution and most European leaders would be anyway against it. It can never go through.

[enigma000]

5. Do you define being religious as insane?

She's religious, should that disqualify her from public office?

BTW: are they still talking about that constitution?

[tocqueville]

6. being against separation of Church and State is insane

and undemocratic. Yes the constitution is on the agenda again, but nothing will happen before the coming French presidential elections and probably not before Blair goes either.

[enigma000]

7. I'd be surprised if she intends to go that far

vis a vis church & state. Are there any references to religion in the draft Constitution, outside freedom of religion?

The point seems moot - from what I can see, looking at Europe, only Muslim religious denominations have any popularity. Plus a growing Catholic population in Britain. If anything, Islam should be referenced in the Constitution not Christianity.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

14. uh uh. Applying logic to the situation will backfire on you

They did not create the term Katherine Harris Crazy out of thin air.

[tocqueville]

22. naming a specific religion in a constitution is in breach

with the separation, specially naming that the constitution is founded on a specific religion's values. It's exactly where the problem is. Because then all judicial "interpretations" are possible. A motto like "in God we trust" is illegal in France (99% of the European nations don't have any OFFICIAL motto referring to God). The older constitutional draft names only freedom of religion and that is absolutely normal.

No religions are "popular" in Europe, you could say the contrary : they are not popular. A certain catholic resurgence can be seen in Poland, that's all. Being catholic or anglican isn't a problem since the two religions differ only by minor differences and rites and mostly by the fact that the anglicans don't recognize the pope as supreme authority.

European muslims are mostly secular, only a tiny minority is really religious and use it to interfere with the state but that's mostly for POLITICAL purposes, not religious. It's a recent phenomenon caused by the Arabic sense of oppression by the West.

The vast majority of Europeans are either agnostics or atheists, or at least secular, that is to say don't let religious considerations influence their daily lives. Church is used as a cool rite anyway because of cultural traditions. The presence of religion in the everyday sphere in Europe HAS NOTHING TO DO with the American one.

America is a religious exception in the western world, because a majority still takes seriously works like the Bible, while Europeans don't. The two countries that could be compared are catholic Ireland and Poland. In the two later cases it's only because the Catholic Church has still a strong influence, but for different historical reasons (but both having a need to mark independence).

God died in Europe during WWI : the fighting armies were either catholic, protestant or orthodox. All had God on their side, but the slaughter was the same everywhere. And when people went back home, the clerics had it very difficult in explaining why.

[JunkYardAngel]

32. Not really

"The two countries that could be compared are catholic Ireland and Poland."
Eh, not really. Ireland is certainly not any more religious than the rest of Europe. Maybe 10-20 years ago that would have been true but not now. The Church has no meaningful power or influence here anymore. If there has been an increase in regular mass-goers in Ireland in the last few years (and I don't think there has)it's down to the Polish immigrants.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

10. I submit that the seriously religious have other serious issues to

deal with, including mental illness.

When you close off your rational thinking and replace it with faith-based belief systems, fed to you by a make-believe fairy tale text, and then demand that others follow your steps, that type of delusional thinking is symbolic of mental illness.

[enigma000]

11. I guess its how seriously religious is defined

Is any religious belief "serious"? Is any belief non-serious? If the weather channel tells me there is a chance of rain, and I plan accordingly, do I seriously believe it is possible it is going to rain?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

12. Good points, all. But, given the addiction to weather channel -

I forget which medical journal had a peer reviewed article, but there is a recognizable illness that results in people watching it endlessly. Interestingly, when weird weather starts up, those addicted are more likely to turn it off than not.

I would define my term that I admittedly misused more along these lines

Delusional disorder, based in part on mistaken beliefs that one has special knowledge, identity with or relationship to a deity; despite repeated failure of prayer or other devotional activities, no change (positive or negative) ever takes place as a result of said prayers, however, the prayer activities remain at the same levels or increase in the face of constant failures; apart from the delusion, an individual's functioning in other, non-religious matters is not markedly impaired, nor obviously odd or bizarre; any logical discussion of the delusion is met with an inability and absolute refusal to accept contrary facts or logical arguments; failure to follow the delusion by others results in the need for the deluded person to convince the others that the delusion is proper and righteous, and finally, that failure to follow the delusion will result in eternal damnation of the other's soul.

[enigma000]

13. That's a good definition of religious faith there n/t

[Ninja Jordan]

16. Your comment is as elitist as it is stupid

I guess 50 some odd million americans who are 'seriously' religious are, by your standards, insane. As a liberal, you seem to be adverse to belief systems different from your own.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

19. Let's see. Some forms of autism used to be considered insanity

and the latest figures suggest (for a variety of possible reasons, including environmental, food additives, and poultry and cow steroid and anti-biotic treatments) that it strikes 1 out of 166 kids. That means that 1.8 million people used to be considered insane before when our medical and psychiatric science became sophisticated enough to recognize some of the parameters of the group of illnesses we call autism and began to point to some treatments and possible cures.

Do I say that all 50 million americans are insane? no. Do I suggest that a portion of them suffer from a mental illness which manifests itself in extremely strong religious beliefs, to the exclusion of rational understanding, and science, math, biology, evolution, physics, astronomy, and chemistry? Absolutely. Why else would Creationism and Intel Design continue to pervert our educational systems?

Several older studies have also shown that there is a statistically higher incidence of certain mental illnesses, including schizophrenia, bipolar disorders, delusional disorders, dissociative disorders and personality disorders (as defined in DSM-IV TR) in that set of people who have defined themselves as extremely religious. The chances of repeating such a study and having it paid for in today's anti-science world are nil, unfortunately. Religion has become not just acceptable, but necessary. Count the number of times you hear "god bless" on C-Span.

Is it a surprise that an untreated condition causes stress, pain, disordered lifestyles and debilitating relationship and employment problems? Is it surprising that many of them seek solace in alcohol, drugs, or religion - each of which are capable of blunting some of their pain and problems? Is it surprising that the ultra-religious (again, the self-described ones) exhibit certain activities that viewed on their own, perfectly match the diagnostic criteria of the American Psychiatric Association?

In simple terms, do I suggest that there is a connection between extremely strong religious beliefs and mental illness? yes.

[Finder]

33. Not many "seriously" religious americans, but it depends how one...

defines religious.

[TreasonousBastard]

18. Well, thank you for that...

explanation of the dementia of Martin Luther King, Isaac Newton, Aquinas, Sr. Helen Prejean, Thomas More, John Adams, Siddhartha, Confucius, and millions of other intellectually feeble lower forms of insane life.

Or is your understanding of serious religion limited to bin Laden and Falwell?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

20. Isaac newton dropped his

science studies after serious heavy metal poisoning, and towards the end of his life, he moved on to religion. I think that explains a lot about his drastic changes in behavior. Mental illness brought on by environmental poisoning is precisely a great example of cause and effect.

I would not call Martin Luther King an EXTREMELY religious folk. Did he demand that the bible was inerrant? Did he claim that other beliefs were wrong? hardly.
Thomas Aquinas is an interesting study - a religious man who also applied rational thought to himself, his beliefs and even his religion. his proofs were interesting, even dangerous to him, but recall the timeframe in which he lived - smack dab in the middle of the destructive Dark Ages, where even a slightly different method of praying could cost you your freedom. Nope, he does not fit.

haven't read Prejean, and I thank you for a new reference to study.

I disagree with you about John Adams. I've studied his writings in detail, and I beg you to find one letter, article, or writing of his that suggests that his beliefs ever caused him to act irrationally, or interfered with his logic. I have never seen even a glimmer to suggest that he believed that prayer could actually change god's mind and let him become, say, president or the author of parts of the constitution.

[TreasonousBastard]

24. Newton was extremely religious all his life...

and there is some speculation that he even stuck some proofs of his Unitarian beliefs in the Principia. Yes, he undoubtedly suffered from mercury poisoning from his alchemy experiments, but that's not when he started thinking about religion. Most of his life he was afraid to publish or speak in public about religion because of his heretical, for the time, beliefs. Several biographers have noted that he got dispensation from Charles II from the requirement that an dons be Anglican priests so he could take the Lucasian chair else his Unitarianism, or Arianism, would be exposed.

But, more to the point, is that you have defined "seriously religious" in a way that proves your point-- the "No True Scotsman" fallacy rises again.

The "seriously religious," such as Mother Theresa, St. Theresa of Avila, Karl Barth, Albert Schweitzer, John Woolman and so many others do not necessarily forsake logic for fairy tales or demand that others believe as they do.

[donsu]

8. maybe she is a daddy's girl

nt

[CJCRANE]

9. Wannabe neocons

like Merkel and Blair just don't get it.

The way to combat fundamentalism and ensure progress is to stress the rule of law, human rights and secular values. Christianity may have been a stepping stone towards these ideas but there were many other factors too.

I really think there is a hidden agenda to create a class of fundamentalisms. If so then the West will lose. Better to build on the Enlightenment than go backwards.

[Ninja Jordan]

15. What's insane about that?

She wants religious influence in the EU charter. sheesh the insanity!

[leesa]

25. So do the Talibam. I don't want any religion in my politics. ZERO.

[Ninja Jordan]

26. Wow, now THERE'S an apt comparison

:eyes:

[ima_sinnic]

27. why is it not apt?

I'd really like to hear your rationale for scorning that comparison.
dogma is dogma and I don't care to have any of it built into the constitution. "God" couldn't care less about the petty doings of human beings and their insane wars over who thinks they have the inside track into "his" thoughts, doings and dictums.

[Ninja Jordan]

29. Um, Angela Merkel is a woman

yes, the Taliban have loads of women who lead the movement to spread the Taliban's message. The Talbian are exactly like the EU!

[ima_sinnic]

31. details like that are immaterial

the point is: the Taliban and the "Christianists" both want their own religious beliefs built into the official governance of their countries. Like the Taliban, they want to dictate what should be people's personal beliefs and actions. And by the way, don't think for a minute that the Christianists want much more for women than to be squashed under the heel of men.

[Ninja Jordan]

34. Pretty offensive

"Like the Taliban, (Christianists) want to dictate what should be people's personal beliefs and actions." - Where the hell do you get THAT from? I dont remember hearing that the EU charter proposes to prevent others from practicing Islam or another religion. It seems you're only open to beliefs that mirror your own (atheistic).

[ima_sinnic]

35. I am only "open to" a constitution that does not favor/recognize

one religion over another. The constitution or charter of a country/group of countries is supposed to apply to and spell out the rights & responsibilities of every single person in that country, not just Christians or whoever the constitution-writers personally happen to like.

[Ninja Jordan]

36. I don't see evidence that what you say is true

Where has Angela Merkel claimed to spell out the rights and responsibilities only for Christians? To my knowledge, the issue is whether or not the EU should insert reference to a Christian history in Europe, not a list of rights that apply only to Christians, or act to exclude others.

[ima_sinnic]

37. does she want a reference to the Inquisition?

How about the fact that Christianity was forced on many Europeans by threat of torture and through force? How about a reference to the good old Dark Ages, when the Church of Rome ruled Europe?
What about the so-called pagan religions that were there, forming the basis of most Christian symbols and holidays, long before the inquisitors and reformers started slaughering "heretics"?
If I were her, I wouldn't be too proud of that "Christian history."

[Eurobabe]

17. NO, NO!!!! I FLED TO ESCAPE THIS SHIT!!!

Jesus F'ing Christ, I LEFT the US for Germany to escape the Rapture Rangers....

Merkel will go down in flames for this, I doubt Germany will tolerate it. Well, except for Bavaria, it's Pope-A-Rama time down here. Rat'sNest is coming in a week or so.

At least here, if the German Bundestag loses confidence in her, she gets tossed. That'll never happen in the US.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

21. it will never happen here because of the strangle hold religions

(at least the approved ones) have over our society. It is growing in strength, and destroying the very culture that led to our advancement and power. The longer that people use religion as a sword and shield in our government, the worse off our world will become.

If it weren't so sad and dangerous to world peace, people would be laughing their asses off at our country.

[Odin2005]

23. ROFL at those pics!!!

:rofl: :spray:

[pscot]

30. Isn't German tax money

still used to support the Catholic church?

[Kellanved]

38. Sure

The church gets funds for schools, hospitals, kindergarten etc. Also, the German states have an agreement with a few religious groups to collect the "curch tax" for them. It's a tax not paid by non Christian/Jewish taxpayers.

[noonwitch]

28. I doubt that the British and French are going to like that idea too much

But the more catholic nations like Italy might.

[Kellanved]

39. Ahh ... full speed to "new Europe"

This was a major rift in the debate preceding the (stranded) EU constitution move. Poland, Ireland, Italy and the German and Spanish conservatives always were outspoken in their demand to have a "god's grace" paragraph in the constitution. Pretty much everybody else will call "veto" which is why this won't go far".