What was THE MAIN REASON for the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq?

[welshTerrier2]

The article linked to below reads like a Who's Who in the Oil industry ... but does that necessarily mean that oil was THE MAIN REASON bush invaded Afghanistan and Iraq or do you believe THE MAIN REASON was something other than catering to Big Oil?

The poll question is: What was THE MAIN REASON for the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq?

What's especially interesting to me is that either the Democratic Party's elite representatives have never even addressed this question or I certainly have not heard their perspective on it ... can anyone state what any of the prominent Democrats believes bush's MAIN REASON for invading Afghanistan and Iraq was? do they accept the "official view" that the REAL reason was to destroy the Taliban because they were aiding Al Qaeda and to topple Saddam because of WMD? does anyone actual believe those were the REAL reasons?

The discussion question is: It's amazing to me that even a discussion of the REAL reasons seems like "that of which we must never speak" ... why are leading Democrats so afraid to raise the issue?

source: http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_sherwood_060828_oil_hunger_held_caus.htm

If you think President Bush's invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq are not about oil, read bestseller "The Sorrows of Empire" by Chalmers Johnson(Owl Books).

Oil "has been a constant motive" driving "the vast expansion of (U.S.) bases in the Persian Gulf" in Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and UAR, Johnson says.

A "major consideration" for the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan in 2001 was to put in office a regime favoring the oil and gas pipelines the U.S. sought running from Turkmenistan south through Afghanistan to the Arabian Sea coast of Pakistan, Johnson says.

Because Afghanistan's Taliban regime opposed the U.S.- backed venture, its overthrow became the secret reason behind "the war on terrorism," he claims. <skip>

Does Johnson's book mean the horrors befalling Afghanistan and Iraq stem from an oil grab? Is it possible the above fraternity of high-priced oil company consultants/U.S. officials, once their man entered the White House, unleashed wars of aggression for regime change to build pipelines for their favorite oil firms? Maybe this is just a conspiracy theory. But if Kissinger, Brzezinski, Cheney, Rice, Armitage, Scowcroft, Baker, Haig, Oakley, Karzai, and Khalilzad develop a sudden interest in harvesting Brazil nuts, somebody had better warn President Lula Da Silva!

[electropop]

1. Shutting down Iraqi oil production.

Gas is now $3.00/gallon and the Bush-Laden oil cartel is making billions. Mission accomplished! WHat better way to make money on oil than shutting down your biggest competitor?

[Sir Jeffrey]

2. Ethnic cleansing/depopulation of the Middle East

edit

corrected spelling

[MrPrax]

4. That should be included...

There is a 'not too subtle' Crusader racism motivating some of the 'enablers' -- it's an ancient coalition of the willing, if you will.

[Sir Jeffrey]

8. To even consider the other options...

leads one to conclude that these guys must be really, really stupid. I don't buy it.

[MrPrax]

17. Hey I am so cynical...

I figure the reason why we don't bother with the global warming problem is that our elites have already choosen Plan B and will kill off a good chunk of the world's population to decrease 'human-related' emissions.

To me, the killing, migrations and genocide of the 20th century will look like a slight case of food poisoning at a country fair, compared to what we will be unleashing in the not too distant future.

The Crusade redux is definitely a start in that direction...we'll cull our own undesireables and then prepare the remaining 'left behind' for genocidal ethnic cleansing of the planet.

[Sir Jeffrey]

20. Unending wars for natural resources...global depopulation...

man, I need to stay away from DU on Mondays.

In all seriousness though, I have to say I agree with your assessment of global warming. I remember reading something on Information Clearinghouse about how the Middle East wars are the result of us already being beyond the tipping point for maintaining the western lifestyle. We could live in harmony with nature and the rest of humanity, but it would involve significant sacrficies that our elites are not about to make.

This is why the reason for Iraq was never important. It was important that we kill as many Middle Easterners as possible. This is why AIDS is allowed to ravage Africa, why corporations are allowed to come into South American communities to gain control of the water supplies (which they proceed to contaminate), and why millions of other simple problems remain unsolved.

"Crusade redux" is a good way to phrase it.

[Kickoutthejams23]

3. I have always felt Afghanistan and Iraq are two separate wars.

Overthrowing the Taliban was a good and necessary thing. I'm sure President Gore would have taken the exact same response. Not enough coffee to vent on all that is wrong with Iraq.

[welshTerrier2]

7. "a good and necessary thing"

perhaps overthrowing the Taliban was a "good and necessary" thing but that doesn't really answer the question ...

the question is what was bush's MAIN REASON for invading Afghanistan?

was it to achieve a "good and necessary" thing or was it to promote the greedy, commercial interests of Big Oil? overthrowing the Taliban may have been a "beneficial bi-product" but i think the proper understanding of imperialists and empires is that bush invading Afghanistan for oil and greed ...

[Kickoutthejams23]

10. Yeah the pipeline in the mid 90's

http://www.crescentlife.com/heal%20the%20world/afghanistan_and_oil.htm

Old story given new life. It was primarily used unfairly against Clinton. So we insert Bush where Clinton was written and we have a Republican Conspiracy? Iraq is one thing but there are plenty of countries that are better oil targets than Afghanistan.

[reichstag911]

13. But Afghanistan...

...isn't an oil target, it was a natural gas target. Unocal wanted to build a pipeline through it from the Central Asian natural gas fields in, I think, Turkmenistan. Google Unocal, of which Hamid Karzai used to be an employee/consultant, and Afghanistan.

>>>edited to correct Kyrgysztan to Turkmenistan

[Kickoutthejams23]

16. Yes UNDER CLINTON.

As another poster said lets not mix-up the two countries. Very different wars in reason and execution.

[reichstag911]

19. I've mixed up nothing;...

...you're the one claiming the further destruction of Afghanistan was "good and necessary." Who benefited? WIth the exception of Kabul itself, it's now run by the same Taliban and drug-running warlords as before our "good and necessary" war. Did we get OBL, the guy GW vowed to get "dead or alive?" What did we accomplish?

[ieoeja]

24. The MAIN REASON: he had to.

I believe the answer to this half of your question lies in another question, "would Idiot have invaded Iraq and Afghanistan if 9/11 had never happened?"

That also requires a two part answer. Yes, to Iraq. No, to Afghanistan. Where 9/11 made it easier to manufacture a war with Iraq, it made it impossible for them to avoid going into Afghanistan. I strongly believe their thoughts on Afghanistan are:

o mountainous terrain
o land-locked
o remote
o little strategic value**
o takes resources away from Iraq


You think they WANT to be in Afghanistan? No way, Jose. They would "cut and run" in a heartbeat if it were politically feasible. I subscribe more to the "PNAC" theory than the "greed" theory.

It is a bit like Hitler with Mein Kampf. The bloody nutcase TOLD everyone what he intended to do and why. But his contemporaries did not believe him. I see the same thing here with PNAC.

Now, as with the NAZIs, *some* members of PNAC are going to make sure they line their pockets while carrying out the greater mission. But I think it is a mistake to ascribe everything to pure greed. These guys are true believers in the cause!

Although the Bush family itself worries me. Far too many coincidences with regards to China. Poppy handed them those nuclear secrets (which Congress did not learn about until Clinton was in office, hence the confusion in the minds of so many freepers). Uncle Prescott is the president of the China-America Business Chamber of Commerce. Idiot hands them the reconnaisance plane then APOLOGIZES to them afterwards. I am seriously worried that the monied aristocracy would love to advance China a little if it helps lower the rest of the world a lot so long as the whole helps create a greater separation between themselves and the other 99.44% of the populace.


** "Strategic value" is where I think the true-believers in PNAC are seriously flawed. If you look at the Middle East like a game of RISK, conquering Iraq puts us in a great position to threaten any other territory in the region. If you look beyond the map and consider people, culture, etc then it was incredibly asinine! These morons can't tell the difference between an overly simplified board game and the real world.

[Drum]

5. Testosterone..........n/t

[wryter2000]

6. Esp. for Iraq

To make *asshat into a "war president." Not so much to get other Republicans elected, but to get him "re-elected." And there are many reasons for that (greed, outdoing daddy, covering up crimes).

[Atman]

9. Other

To establish a permanent United States precense, build the Super-Embassy, and privatize all the Iraqi infrastructure to line their own pockets and those of their contributors.

Not-quite-secondarily, it would have been devastating to the Oil Men in the White House and outside the White House, should Iraq have begin releasing its oil into the market and undercut OPEC.

That's kind of like "Oil & Greed," but I think it's much deeper than that.

[Hosnon]

11. Other: Terribly misguided and uninformed ideology (Wolfowitz). nt

[Sinti]

12. Oil is a symptom, but money and power are the real disease

The PNAC and the Grand Chessboard state as much pretty plainly. Between the lines it looks like a 76 percent solution. I would expect we'll go after Iran next. There's already some arm-wrestling going on for the "hearts and minds" of the leaders in the 'Stans up north. Then we'll need to get Venezuela in our pocket, by whatever means necessary. Do this and we control 76+ percent of the world's oil reserves. The military machines of all nations run on petroleum. Hence, we control the world. Checkmate.

[Deep13]

14. Perpetual war and fear.

[Pirate Smile]

15. Most Democrats (certainly the public officials) separate Iraq from

Afghanistan.

Afghanistan = 9/11, Al Quaeda, etc

Iraq = ???

We finally have 51% (according to a recent poll) that separate Iraq from 9/11. Democrats need people to separate the two.

If we start sticking them back together, it helps the Republicans.

Gore said he would have invaded Afghanistan after 9/11 (if it would have happened on his watch). Kerry certainly would have also and criticized Bush's letting OBL get away.

I don't think we can or should connect Iraq and Afghanistan. We have been trying like hell for three years to get them separated in the American public's mind.

[Totally Committed]

18. Oil and greed.

Oil and greed.

Oil and greed.

Oil and greed.

Oil and greed.

And, you'll never convince me otherwise.

TC

[paulk]

21. Democrats won't touch this issue because they want to get

as far away from this sort of conspiracy mongering as possible.


First off - as another poster points out - you can't put Afghanistan and Iraq into the same basket. Afghanistan was invaded to bring down a regime that was harboring a terrorist organization that had attacked the United States. Why do you need some other, darker motive? Putting a friendly regime in Afghanistan was just a bonus - but if the motive was to keep that regime in power - why has the Bush administration totally neglected Afghanistan and allowed the Taliban to make a comeback?


And isn't the neocon craziness in Iraq enough? This idea that overthrowing Saddam would lead to democracy and a stable government - and that this example would spread across the entire middle east? And who, at this point, believes that WMD was anything other than an excuse? That's a red herring.

I'm sure oil was a motive, in that the US has always wished for stability in that part of the world - to the point of supporting several corrupt dictatorships to get it. That, in it's own way, is bad enough - you don't need to tack this "oil grab" conspiracy theory on top of it.

[Stinky The Clown]

22. Okay, I hadda go with 'other' ......

Not only can't I color bewteen the lines, I can't even color in the same book!

First, the *right* reason to go into Afghanistan was the one stated at the time ...... to unseat the Taliban and get to bin Laden's crew. While that was the stated reason at the time, and while I agreed with it at the time, I am now convinced that was smoke and mirrors and not even close to the truth.

Iraq .... no good reason whatever. Not when we went and surely not now.

Now, your poll asks not about valid reasons, but rather, about Il Dunce's reasons. And therein lies the purely speculative nature of *any* reply to your post.

The fact is, none of us know beyond a shadow of doubt why they did what they did. Its easy enough to cite oil interests. Its easy enough to cite PNAC. And indeed, one or both of those could well be the real reason. My money's on the oil guys, and it is my view they trump the PNAC guys and see them merely as fools - and tools - whose purposes more or less mesh with the oil guys' purposes.

But I'm gunna postulate a third 'cloudy' reason: Some group much more powerful than the oil guys or the PNAC guys.

Who benefits from unreast in the middle east? Not just oil 'unrest', but civil unrest. Keeping the social pot stirring. I don't know who these people are. Some call them the Bilderbergs or the Illuminati or other wildly speculative tin foil hat view.

I'll stay with 'oil guys' as my formal, official answer. Mainly cuz I don't wanna appear like a total nut.

[leftofthedial]

23. the first two (they think) go hand in hand

[riona]

25. Wasn't the dollar vs. the Euro in the mix?

[Initech]

26. Same 3 reasons every war in history has ever been fought:

Money, power, and greed. Iraq and Afghanistan are no different.